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A mild awakening, England's Turn?

David Goodhart, 26 - 06 - 2008
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The British left has never been comfortable with nationalism, yet in an age of globalisation it is more important than ever to achieve the social solidarity and redistribution the left wants. New post-ethnic forms of national identity are needed to resist global pressures towards a minimalist market state. Speaking to a Rowntree seminar, David Goodhart editor of Prospect, argued that the possibility of the break up of Britain in the near future should prompt the English to think seriously about who they are - and who they would like to become.

 

POST POST-NATIONALISM

For reasons of history and national temperament the British (especially the English) have worn their national citizenship lightly. Such insouciance is now positively embraced by leftists, post-nationalists and even some free-marketeers, but it did not derive from a generous or progressive sentiment. If anything, on the contrary, it was the result of a missionary-imperial idea of Britain in which it was not necessary to draw clear lines around the political community. As Krishan Kumar has explained in his The Making of English National Identity such fuzziness also helped to veil the overwhelming dominance of the English within the British state.

This fuzziness is now an obstacle to the good society. At a time of mass immigration, European integration, the rise of identity politics and so on, we need clearer markers for a post-ethnic national citizenship that is also open to the world. We need, in other words, a post post-nationalism. The shape of the nation state is constantly evolving but it is still central to most of the things that liberals want, from democratic accountability to redistribution of wealth and generous welfare. But it needs help, especially from the left, which after all wants the state to make more, not fewer, demands of citizens—whether paying higher taxes or being more active citizens. I do not, of course, advocate a return to Edwardian jingoism, but with the erosion of so many other collective identities a minimum national sense of “being in this together” is still necessary to avoid long-term ethnic balkanisation and a small, low-tax state.

I do not think self-interest, even of the enlightened kind, is sufficient to generate the solidarity required for a thriving public realm. The political battle is now on between the citizenship state and a market state in which citizens have a purely instrumental relationship to both the state and each other.

Unfortunately, from the 1960s onwards, Britain did not develop a modern, postimperial language of national citizenship and identity that was comfortable with the idea of equal citizenship—regardless of race or background. The right did not fully embrace equality (and after Enoch Powell, the liberal right just wanted to avoid the subject). The left did embrace equality, but thought it meant burying the nation state; it did not accept that even if all people on the planet are in some sense morally equal, we still have a far greater political and social commitment to our fellow citizens, of all classes and ethnicities.

Moreover, a “rights” culture does not make the nation superfluous. The rights that we claim are also demands that we make on each other—especially if those rights have a price tag attached—and that presupposes a political community, and invariably therefore a nation of some kind.

Modern democratic politics is based on the idea of fellow citizen favouritism—that is why we spend 25 times more on the NHS each year than on development aid. This does not mean we have no moral obligations to citizens of other countries, (in Britain’s case especially our fellow EU members and the countries that were once part of the empire). But such obligations have to co-exist with the primary reality of national citizenship. Without fellow-citizen favouritism there would be no point to the nation state, and without it we would lose most of the great achievements of modern liberalism. There is a “middle way” between universalism and ethnic nationalism, and other traditions such as the French and the Canadian often express it more comfortably than we do.

National citizenship needs modernisation and clarification in at least three ways. First, spelling out what Lord Goldsmith in his much derided report on citizenship calls “the package of rights and responsibilities which demonstrate the tie between a person and a country.” Most of these already exist, but they are not written down in one place anywhere—and we can no longer assume that everyone intuitively understands them.

Second, we need to clarify the dividing line between citizens and non-citizens. At its most basic, this means controlling our borders and who crosses them (and counting them properly). It also means making new citizens more aware of what it is they are joining—“we” are not just a random collection of individuals. This is where the current Labour government has made most progress with its citizenship ceremonies and tests, and its idea of staged, “earned” citizenship.

Third, in an era of greater mobility we need a more overt assumption that the interests of British citizens, of all colours and creeds, must come first. Of course citizens often have different or conflicting interests — sorting out those conflicts peacefully is one of the things that politics is about. And these days we grant, as we should, many rights to non-citizens, including, of course, other EU citizens. But why on earth in the NHS doctors recruitment fiasco did we give no preference to British citizens, or even to people coming out of British medical schools?

One cannot, of course, legislate for a sense of belonging. And it takes time for new citizens to absorb a country’s norms and unspoken codes. State-sponsored patriotic rituals are not always the answer, for either new or old citizens, especially in a country as individualist and sceptical as Britain. But the ceremonies for new citizens, derided when introduced in 2002, have proved popular. If they go with the grain, top-down ideas can have popular appeal.

People ask, reasonably enough, what difference is a national day going to make to those disaffected young Muslims whose primary commitment is to the umma, or to east Europeans who have a purely financial motive for being here? A national day will make little difference on its own. But if in the 1960s and 1970s Britain had projected a clearer and more confident idea of itself, and if it had made a clearer “offer” to new citizens about what rights they could expect from their new country and what it expected from them, perhaps minority identity politics would have had less of a pull.

As it was a kind of laissez-faire multi-culturalism became the norm.

People can feel or express national commitments in many different ways. And if people on the left find the idea of the nation distasteful, then the simple answer is for them to give it another name: society, or just plain citizenship. To dismiss Lord Goldsmith’s belated attempt to modernise national citizenship as “ a parochial side-show,” as David Beetham did in his paper last month, is complacent.

BUT WHICH NATION?

Britain has been an extremely successful multinational state. Personally, I would be sad to see it go. Moreover, if it ain’t broke…Surely the English are big enough to live with some small representational and public spending biases in favour of the small nations of the United Kindgdom. What exactly are English interests? And how are they being suppressed? (And one could ask the same of Scotland.)

The paradox of Britain is that although it was substantially made by the English they did not – unlike the other British nations – define their own role in it. England dissolved itself into Britain, and so to this day has only minimal political/institutional identity. There is indeed no formal English political community, one of the reasons why sport has become such a rallying point for expressions of English identity.

If one accepts the case for a continuing need for overarching national identities and some minimum sense of “being in this together” as a defence against the market state then one must take the symbols and institutions of nationhood seriously. The danger for the English is that they will be left holding on to the symbols and institutions of Britain long after it has been cleared out of any emotional or political meaning. And if the Scots (and possibly the Welsh too) abandon the union, leaving the English holding a hollowed out shell, it is more likely that a new English nationalism will be born in a resentful mood.

So, if we are to follow this thought experiment, England should prepare itself for the abandonment of Britain and give some thought to its own political future. Of course the break-up of Britain is still not inevitable. We are all familiar with the argument that many of the things which inspired the creation of Britain and then held it together – empire, Protestantism, the labour movement, a single economic space – are either no longer relevant or would continue happily even without the existence of Britain. That is not a decisive argument for ending the union, but if the main non-English party to the union no longer sees the point of it – or rather if it thinks it can continue to enjoy the perceived benefits without the perceived disbenefits - then the union has no future.

And it is now all too easy to imagine how the end could come. A referendum in 2010 or 2011 after a successful period of SNP government, and soon after the Tories have returned with a big majority to Westminster (having increased their representation in Scotland by only a couple of seats) – could create the political atmosphere in which a vote for independence becomes not just possible but likely. Scots will be told that nothing much will change—same queen, same currency, no physical border—and their self-governing powers will merely seamlessly extend to foreign policy, tax and macro-economics. (Although as Robert Hazell points out in the latest Prospect (subscription only), it is probable that the Scots would have to vote twice – once on the principle of independence and then again on the deal that is secured.)

There is a problem here for people like me who do not want the union dissolved but on the other hand have no fear of an “England alone” and think it would be sensible to prepare for that eventuality. The problem is this: any preparation that seeks more political representation for England within Britain as it is today is bound to hasten the Scots to the exit. I am no expert on the various constitutional arguments but English votes for English laws (which is still Tory policy) would require an English parliament or its equivalent – which in turn would make the UK parliament increasingly residual and thus erode the political bond between England and Scotland.

The cleanest way of dealing with the representational imbalance at Westminster is the method applied in Northern Ireland—simply cutting the number of Scottish MPs. But what could be more inflammatory to the Scots – they would in effect be told because you now run your own health service you will have less say over declaring war. There might be some way through this constitutional thicket – perhaps it’s a suitable subject for a Royal Commission – but it doesn’t look promising.

So let us assume that Scotland is off –look on the bright side. England can at last re-unite its cultural and political identities. All that nonsense about Britain being a civic concept and England an ethnic one is swept away – as soon as England becomes a political community it is by definition civic as well as ethnic. And England is, of course, far more multi-ethnic than Scotland or Wales, and would remain one of the most diverse countries in Europe even if it lost those two countries. There is no obvious economic disadvantage to England from a break-up of the union— indeed even taking account of losing what is left of the oil there would be probably be a small independence dividend. In the past 50 years England has steamed ahead of Scotland in terms of population growth and economic weight, and there is no reason to think that independence for Scotland would stop that.

Independence would be a severe shock to one organization—the Labour Party, which has come to rely on “Celtic Britain” as a social democratic bulwark against Anglo-Thatcherism. And there is no doubt that the English middle class – broadly defined – is culturally quite distinct from its Scottish equivalent – it is more individualistic, more private sector, perhaps more enterprising – indeed it is this cultural divide which seems to be one of the factors driving the independence movement. But Labour in England would just have to try harder to persuade this economically dynamic group to see its interests tied to a thriving public realm – it has more or less succeeded in doing that for the past three elections.

There might be broader, albeit rather intangible, benefits for the left too. Perhaps the final dismantling of the British imperial state would release the hubris that causes British politicians to try to punch so far above their weight on the international stage. Of course there can be good left-wing reasons for punching above one’s weight in the field of development and so on. But with the Iraq war still so fresh in people’s minds we know that punching above one’s weight has its destructive side too.

And with Scotland gone – and perhaps Wales not far behind – the north-south divide within England might finally get the attention it deserves. The north east and the north west ought to benefit substantially. (As a new state would be emerging it might also be an excuse to establish the new capital outside the old imperial capital of London.)

Because of the huge scale differences between England and Scotland—separation is likely to cause more trauma and disruption north of the border than south (there are only one or two institutions that would be significantly affected south of the border– the BBC and the British army to name two). Indeed some people argue that most English people expressed their English national identity through British symbols, basically seeing these as continuous with the English past. Hence the seamless sliding between the two, at least until recently—much to the chagrin of the Scots and Welsh. So Englishness might just reorient itself without much dislocation – and the small historical jolt that it would receive from the departing Scots could even turn out to be a benign one.

This article appears on the Prospect website.

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English Earth (not verified) said:

Tue, 2009-02-03 22:46

How would an English Parliament wind the clock back and rebuild the traditional English County network in the first place?

The English County Network is in place so why are the government/Common Purpose stooges padav and Peter Davidson pretending otherwise, playing psycho ops are we?

Trying to make people hopeless are we? Trying to block out REAL DEBATE with constant nonsense postings about illegal regional assemblies who work for the EU and not us, but steal our money because none of these tricksters have money of their own they have to steal ours.

The only assembly which was put to the vote was the North East region, and the good people made their point by voting in a monkey instead. The Common Purpose Nazis in John Prescott's office knew we would never vote them in and so they were brought in surreptiously and ARE ILLLEGAL !

Why are you trying to pretend that the English counties don't exist when they do and always will. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DESTROY OUR ANCIENT COUNTIES.

Trying to make out that the EU is democractic when it is a Nazi state and that Common Purpose are the NAZI organisation operating in England trying to destroy England and the English with SUBVERSION techniques (see Frankfurth School of Subversion).

Unitary Councils are ILLEGAL and are designed to REMOVE local democracy. All councils throughout England need to get together and fight them with one major court case and ensure that the judge involved is not a corrupt member of Common Purpose.

We need to root out corrupt council officials and policemen and the good people need to get together. We need to stop the building of criminal holding centres in rural areas - who are the criminals they are intended for? Us?

The counties are ancient and we will never never forget, just as the Palestinians will never forget and just like the Irish never forgot we won't either.

Not logged in (not verified) said:

Fri, 2008-11-28 19:10

The neuronal loop in Peter Davidson's brain that needs to be connected is simply that many in England now want national representation because Scotland and Wales have it. Size and regional maps have nothing to do with it. The idea of nation is fundamentally an emotional one and so his logic which is based purely on what would work best post devolution in decentralising power is, as Paul Kingsnorth has pointed out, largely irrelevant.

If he were to redraw a map in which the NE of England was lumped in with the lowlands of Scotland (with of course the abolition of the Scottish parliament) he would find more sympathy for his logic.

His plan, in emotional substance, to people who care about England as an integral nation, is largely the same as Labour's and the eurofederalists. Scotland and Wales are a done deal so now England must be broken up to complete the regionalisation. The problem is that Scotland and Wales have not been DEnationalised. In fact quite the reverse.

An EP has much wider meaning for the people who would like one than just how best to run the country. The establishment of such an institution would be a powerful defender of English culture at a time when it is no longer safe and a voice for the people of England AS the people of England in Europe. A right that is expected and enjoyed by every other nation of the union.

padav said:

Mon, 2008-10-06 22:58

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@The Secret Person

Thanks for your considered
response - a couple of points do require some clarification:

Firstly, the influence of
size within this entire debate cannot be underestimated and your comment is
guilty of the same misinformed assumptions.

Scotland, plus Wales,
Northern Ireland and even London for that matter,
work more effectively to a large extent because they are:

a) Small enough to resonate
with their respective populations - a direct reference to Anderson's "Imagined Communities"

yet

b) Large enough to boast
the necessary economies of scale required to develop meaningful levels of
autonomy.

In this context, Paul
Kingsnorth's throwaway jibe of "Freedom for Kent! Yeah, baby" rings rather
hollow when one considers the rather obvious fact that the County alone boasts
a population of approx 1.5 million, not dissimilar to Northern Ireland, whose
health minister we should recall, recently announced the abolition of
prescription charges in the Province, so not really that insignificant? Perhaps
Kent going it alone is not
sustainable but Kent
together with Surrey and Sussex
(East and West) have a combined population of nearly 4.2 million, roughly
equivalent to the German Lander of Rheinland Pfalz or Sachsen so the concept of
a semi autonomous Weald Region within a federal UK structure is entirely credible?

Secondly I have also
repeatedly stated the role of meaningful engagement of the British public, in
the form of a Citizens' Convention. This democratic vehicle does possess the
capacity to offer mutually exclusive options for elimination via the ballot box
so it is misleading to suggest that such democratic choices could not be incorporated
in a process of this kind.

Peter Davidson, Alderley
Edge, NW.England 

 

The Cornish Democrat said:

Sun, 2008-09-21 11:46
Quote:

Independence seems the only sensible option to me, that would allow our nations (which could include Cornwall) to co-exist without constant squabbling over who subsidises who, who is making accommodations for the sake of "preserving the Union", etc.

Let's have independence on the cards for this multiple choice referendum, which would presumably be a non-binding guide as no outright winner would emerge, and mutually exclusive outcomes may occur in different areas.

Then decentralisation should take the form not of regions but of much smaller units, true localism where the users of a service steer its path. Things like school vouchers and freedom of schools from LEAs are a first step on this path. And finally a considerably smaller state and power in the hands of the ultimate unit of decentralisation - the individual.

Hear hear, I totally agree. Whats more It'd be good to see so called 'democratic reformers' including ALL the options for the public to consider as opposed to nostalgically clinging on to 'Britishness' and the UK.

The problem is that no group or party that has any real support in England (or Cornwall for that matter) has the balls to call for such radical options.

The Secret Person (not verified) said:

Sat, 2008-09-13 11:47

Well I can't see Paul and Peter ever agreeing on an answer, because they are debating different questions. Paul is interested in national representation, Peter in decentralisation and the size of states.

I tend towards Paul's point of view (although the book plugs are becoming a bit unsubtle!) and would raise a few points.

Peter is right that when English Nationalists make future assumptions about a national parliament leading to decentralisation, they are wrong. The issue of decentralisation is a different one. However he makes as many assumptions when he says "Create an environment in which decentralisation is the norm and other perceived problems will evaporate. "

I don't believe national feeling will evaporate with "decentralisation". The misleadingly named devolution was on national grounds, the Scots consider their parliament as representing the Scottish nation, not as a region of the UK. No change in the internal governance of England will later this, Westminster will still be seen as an English imposition.

Many English people will not like, I believe (though obviously democracy rules), their country being carved up to be "equals" in size with Scotland and Wales, i.e. English decisions being made in the interest of others. And as I said before the nations of Scotland and Wales may well see themselves as "equals" of the nation of England, not its regions (small r, Peter!).

Independence seems the only sensible option to me, that would allow our nations (which could include Cornwall) to co-exist without constant squabbling over who subsidises who, who is making accommodations for the sake of "preserving the Union", etc.

Let's have independence on the cards for this multiple choice referendum, which would presumably be a non-binding guide as no outright winner would emerge, and mutually exclusive outcomes may occur in different areas.

Then decentralisation should take the form not of regions but of much smaller units, true localism where the users of a service steer its path. Things like school vouchers and freedom of schools from LEAs are a first step on this path. And finally a considerably smaller state and power in the hands of the ultimate unit of decentralisation - the individual.

The Cornish Democrat said:

Wed, 2008-07-30 15:29
Quote:
Philip - I think this must come down in some respects to definitions of what - or who - is a 'nation.' You obviously argue that Cornwall is a nation, not a county. Others would disagree. Personally I am agnostic on this one, but if a clear majority of Cornish people claim to be a nation and are prepared to do something about it, then that's fine. That's a long way away though
I think more importantly it comes down to understanding the words you use Paul. A nation is the people so the Cornish are a nation and Cornwall (The Duchy of) is our country. Currently we are deprived of an appropriate state. Now you say you are 'agnostic' on this question. Does that mean you are neutral or undecided? Let me just use a favorite quote:
Quote:
Nationality exists in the minds of men, its only conceivable habitat. Outside men’s minds there can be no nationality, because nationality is a manner of looking at oneself not an entity an sich. Common sense is able to detect it, and the only human discipline that can describe and analyse it is psychology. This awareness, this sense of nationality, this national sentiment, is more than a characteristic of a nation. It is nationhood itself.
The PLASC ethnic data from the 2007 Cornish schools survey showed that 27% of children consider themselves to be Cornish rather than British or English. The results from the 2001 UK population census show over 37,000 people hold a Cornish identity instead of English or British. On this census, to claim to be Cornish, you had to deny being British, by crossing out the British option and then write ‘Cornish’ in the “other” box. This does not represent a mere clerical error or poorly thought through wording. Still agnostic Paul? If so why? Whatever you point of view we certainly qualify for inclusion in the Council of Europe's framework convention for the protection of national minorities.
Quote:
this ultimately comes down to whether you believe in, and support, the existence of England as a political entity. I do. Peter and Philip don't.
I could recycle your words for my nation Paul, so why should I support a process/campaign with one end goal as its destination, an EP, that would leave Cornwall in exactly the same condition as it found it? Why should I care about the English national question more than the problem of centralisation?
Quote:
Or we could be sensible, and try and work on the English question and the regional question side by side, instead of trying to set one up against the other.
You repeat this again and again but what do you mean? Put some flesh on the bones of your idea for cooperation. What do you want us to do because all I getting at the moment is "shut up and support the campaign for an EP then maybe latter devolution will get discussed, maybe".The Cornish Democrat

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Wed, 2008-07-30 09:43

Well, at least we got to the heart of the matter. Peter is now openly in favour of breaking England up into statelets. Good luck with your secessionary goals on that one. Can't see the English buying it, frankly. Freedom for Kent! Yeah, baby.

Toque is quite right, above, as is Hamish. As I have said before, this ultimately comes down to whether you believe in, and support, the existence of England as a political entity. I do. Peter and Philip don't. So, while I also support radical devolution of power to local level, I would not do so at the expense of a national English voice.

As Toque also points out, many English people seem to agree:

http://www.toque.co.uk/witan/modules/news/article.php?storyid=27

Simon Jenkins summed up what this is about very well a couple of days ago, in the Times. He wrote of Scotland:

Quote:
Nobody visiting Scotland since devolution eight years ago can be in any doubt of this. Politicians, the media, artists, professions, universities, festivals have been reinvigorated – and have become ever more Scottish.

Edinburgh has the unmistakable air of a national capital. Glasgow is a city transformed. Scotland manifests a mood common across Europe, the increasing assertiveness of sub-national territories.

He's right. It's exciting - and this is what England needs. He continues, writing of England after Scottish secession:

Quote:
For England a “confederated” United Kingdom would be nothing but gain. The obsession among Westminster politicians with keeping the union is archaic ... An autonomous Scotland, a country as big as Denmark, should liberate the English parliament to enjoy a politics freed of the alien encumbrance of Scottish seats ... It should also liberate England to consider its localism, its neglected Anglo-Saxon history and culture, without having to “take into account” the Scottish (or Irish or Welsh) ingredients of that curious vacuity, Britishness.

In other words, this is about liberating England, politically and culturally. A concept that no doubt fills Peter with revulsion, but which fills me with excitement.

padav said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 19:46

Paul

Surely you aren't deterred from submitting your ultimate goal to the rigours of public scrutiny and democratic judgement?

After all, the (English) public are crying out for a constitutional settlement to rectify the injustices heaped upon them by the establishment of devolved institutions for Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland?

They will see through such petty subterfuge, such is the depth of feeling in favour of an English Parliament?

It's called informed choice Paul

If the people of the peripheral English Regions desire to throw their lot in with an English Parliament as a long-term solution to the constitutional and cultural imbalance you perceive who am I to deny them their democratic right to choose that course of action?

However if certain parts of the UK believe they will cut a better deal alone they should be granted the opportunity to do so. After all Scotland has chosen this pathway and as I have pointed out in previous postings to this thread, Lancashire and Cheshire combined boasts a not disimilar population and GDP to our Celtic cousins.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Hamish Scott said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 19:42

Excuse me if I skip most of the posts (pressing business and post-reading-itis) but an English Parliament and English regional devolution are not incompatible, but the Parliament would logically have to come first as it would be this institution that would have the democratic legitemacy todeal with the regional question.
Also, from a Scottish point of view, I disagree profoundly that the UK has been a success. At the time of Union in 1707 the population ration of Scotland to England was 1:4, today it is 1:10. If Scotland's retained population had kept pace with England the population of Scotland would now be 12,5 million, not 5 million. Where are those missing 7.5 million? Some/much (?) has been lost in mass emigration (including the recent past) and massive war casualties - Scotland had the highest combat mortality rate for any country in WW11, roughly double the English rate. WW2 wasn't much better. Independence offers escape from war and emigration and some of the worst socio-economic demographics in Europe. No Trident, no Iraq, no economic policy that is best for the City of London but not so good for Scotland. Money spent on infrastructure (another woeful comparison withan the rest of Western Europe) and social democracy not Anglo-American capitalism. I could go on but I've run out of time.

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 15:37

Philip - I think this must come down in some respects to definitions of what - or who - is a 'nation.' You obviously argue that Cornwall is a nation, not a county. Others would disagree. Personally I am agnostic on this one, but if a clear majority of Cornish people claim to be a nation and are prepared to do something about it, then that's fine. That's a long way away though.

Quote:
It does pose an interesting question however. If most of England massively favoured an EP but Cornwall (plus perhaps some English peripheral regions) massively rejected it what would you suggest. How could the Cornish obtain any kind of justice from such a situation? Following a referendum as proposed by yourself with the above results what could we salvage? Why risk being put in that position in the first place?

I don't understand this. The only way to avoid that 'risk', it would seem, would be not give anyone a vote on an EP at all. I can't see any way around this if you're going to go for Peter's either/ or scenario of regional parliaments versus an English parliament.

Ultimately, if there's a nationwide vote, the majority wins. That's representative democracy for you. Which would mean the Cornish would have to put up with an EP if the rest of England overwhelmingly wanted one - or you would have to secede.

Or we could be sensible, and try and work on the English question and the regional question side by side, instead of trying to set one up against the other.

Toque said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 15:37

a) English Parliament with regional grand committees.

or

b) Regional Parliaments

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 15:28

Quote:
If the vote in a particular Region (such as Greater London) goes against an EP that Region simply doesn't join with those deciding to go down the EP route (assuming any individual Region actually opts for an EP)

Loaded dice, then, Peter!

If this proposal were to be followed, an EP would be torpedoed from the start. Which is presumably why you propose it. All it would take would be for one part of England not to vote for an EP, and it would be dead in the water - and your regionalisation agenda would thus be the only remaining alternative.

Clever, in a way. But not very fair, eh?

padav said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 14:29

Quote:
Say there was a referendum nationally, giving people the choice of a number of options for constitutional change. And say that a majority of English people voted to create an EP, but that a majority of Cornish voted for a Cornish Assembly instead. What would your position be? Would you reject an EP? If so, how? Would you see Cornwall seceding?

You see the problem. If you set up a false 'local devolution versus national parliament' dichotomy much hot water could ensue.

Paul

I've already elaborated on how this process might unfold. Assuming the Citizens' Convention route is chosen and that no topics are deemed taboo from the outset, the dialogue would involve (amongst other vital issues) the potential to re-shape the official English Regional Map. Yes of course English Nationalists would be able to contribute to the debate and put their case for reverting to traditional counties.

However assuming that a consensus was reached in which the current official Regions were abandoned and replaced by more relevant entities - my own preference in my locality being for the traditional county of Lancashire (inclusive of Greater Manchester and Merseyside) to merge with Cheshire (which effectively serves as a commuter belt for the above conurbations). Down in the South-West there would be a separate debate but presumably the unloved South-West Region would be given the elbow and replaced by something more historically relevant, appropriate and likely to garner more support/affinity.

Eventually an all-England referendum on this reshaped English Regional Map could take place with all English Regions voting simultaneously on two mutually exclusive options

a) English Parliament

or

b) Regional Parliament

with both proposed institutions boasting equivalent powers within a UK federal framework.

If the vote in a particular Region (such as Greater London) goes against an EP that Region simply doesn't join with those deciding to go down the EP route (assuming any individual Region actually opts for an EP)

I'm not pretending the process would not arouse strong passions and controversy - it is bound to but ultimately this would be a fair, informed and democratic pathway to sustainable constitutional settlement.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

The Cornish Democrat said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 12:59
Quote:
Philip - the simple point I was making was that Cornwall is currently a part of England. Whether you would like it to be - or whether it used to be - is another matter. At present, it is, and until, if ever, it stops being so it will be affected by the 'government of England' question.

It has a de facto status as an English county however its de jure status is another story, like I said study the link provided above. Its not about what I'd like its about the very real legal status of the Duchy and its relationship to the territory of Cornwall. Other than that yes any settlement for England will also affect Cornwall.
Quote:
As I said previously, there's no reason we can't deal with the national 'English question' at the same time as dealing with regional issues. You seem to imply we are giving people a choice between local devolution and a national government and parliament. As I have explained to Peter ad nauseum, these are separate issues. It's not either/or. Both are needed, in my view
So how do we ensure both happen at the same time and that reform doesn't just stop with the creation of an EP?
Quote:
I would think, though, that the problem for you is the question of how a region or county could override the nation. You say, for example, that the Cornish should be 'given the option of a devolved Cornish government instead of EP if that's what they want'.
If the Cornish showed much more interest in a Cornish government than an EP how could you stop them? All nations have rights Paul not just the one you belong to. The same could be said for the English regions, but isn't this the very essence of national self determination ie a nation decides how its wants to be governed whether by one parliament or many.
It does pose an interesting question however. If most of England massively favoured an EP but Cornwall (plus perhaps some English peripheral regions) massively rejected it what would you suggest. How could the Cornish obtain any kind of justice from such a situation? Following a referendum as proposed by yourself with the above results what could we salvage? Why risk being put in that position in the first place?
The irony is that if England plus Cornwall where already independent from the rest of the UK we three would probably be somewhere on the same side arguing for decentralisation.

padav said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 10:23

Paul,

Thanks for the thinly veiled attempt to misrepresent me but as you say - whatever.

I don't know quite where you stand on this aspect of the debate but I believe that the United Kingdom still has a role to play in this process. Yes, I agree that its role should be much looser and a federal UK framework accomodates that principle.

In order that this UK federal structure functions effectively and sustainably it should comprise of relatively equal partners, so Greater London would stand on the same footing as Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland, with its own first minister etc.

You talk about local sources of power but perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the recent OK articles contributed by Stuart Weir - yes, in theory England has local government but in reality it is neither local, government nor representative.

In the federal framework I envisage a large majority of government activity (including that currently executed by opaque NDPB's [or QUANGO's]) falls within the remit of the sub-UK tier of accountable Parliamentary institutions; Welfare, Education, Healthcare, Law & Order, Housing, Intra-Regional Transport, Culture & Tourism, plus many more.

In this scenario, the notion that (to use an example close to me) East Cheshire Unitary Authority could not only assume responsibility to manage the policy portfolios outlined above but also fund them directly via its own revenue raising capacity, is really quite ludicrous. Back to those economies of scale factors again - see Alesina & Spolaore.

This federal arrangement is what I mean when I use the term "radical dispersal of power"

Within this form of UK federal structure it is actually England that represents the extra, complicating, tier of governance - not the Regional Parliaments I propose.

Philip has summed up this issue quite nicely. Provided all options are fully explained to the electorate in advance of any referendum resulting from a Citizens' Convention type dialogue and these mutually exclusive options are on the ballot paper for relevant electorates to choose between, I have no problem with committing to the outcome of any plebiscite conducted under these circumstances.

In short I argue for a process of "informed" consent.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 10:06

Philip - the simple point I was making was that Cornwall is currently a part of England. Whether you would like it to be - or whether it used to be - is another matter. At present, it is, and until, if ever, it stops being so it will be affected by the 'government of England' question.

As I said previously, there's no reason we can't deal with the national 'English question' at the same time as dealing with regional issues. You seem to imply we are giving people a choice between local devolution and a national government and parliament. As I have explained to Peter ad nauseum, these are separate issues. It's not either/or. Both are needed, in my view.

I would think, though, that the problem for you is the question of how a region or county could override the nation. You say, for example, that the Cornish should be 'given the option of a devolved Cornish government instead of EP if that's what they want'.

But how would this work? Say there was a referendum nationally, giving people the choice of a number of options for constitutional change. And say that a majority of English people voted to create an EP, but that a majority of Cornish voted for a Cornish Assembly instead. What would your position be? Would you reject an EP? If so, how? Would you see Cornwall seceding?

You see the problem. If you set up a false 'local devolution versus national parliament' dichotomy much hot water could ensue.

Still, we do share one historical grievance: the 'Norman Yoke' which enslaved the Cornish enslaved the English too! As Tom Paine so memorably put it, 'If the succession runs in the line of the Conqueror, the Nation runs in the line of being conquered and ought to rescue itself.' What goes for Cornwall goes for England ...

The Cornish Democrat said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 08:17
 

Quote:
I don't expect Cornish separatists to agree with me, but until you have forged your own nation - which doesn't look likely anytime soon - you are part of England, so it's not unreasonable for me to want to include you in the process
Of course the residents of Cornwall should be included in the process where have I said otherwise? They should be included and given the option of a devolved Cornish government instead of EP if thats what they want. As for Cornwall being a simple part of England; Paul you often suggest I read your book, well if you'd read some books on Cornwall this debate may be a little more productive. Can I suggest you start here to disabuse yourself of any illusions you have of Cornwalls constitutional status (remember buying the establishment line does not equal discovering the truth): http://duchyofcornwall.eu/ .   Any dramatic constitutional reform in the UK threatens to open a Duchy can of worms; interesting times ahead perhaps? 
Quote:
Like Peter, you seem to think that a parliament precludes regional or local decentralisation. It doesn't. There's no reason we can't have an English parliament and you also have your Cornish assembly. It would be worth reading my book, incidentally, which calls for precisely that
No Paul you fail to understand. I want regional devolution to a Cornish assembly as an option alongside the English Parliament option and then let the people decide. Why should we have to swallow an English parliament first and then cross our fingers hoping for some devolution later? The opinions in your book are all well and good and I thank your for your support but I want guarantees. Cornwall alongside any other 'region' that shows an interest in having powers equivalent to those of the Scottish Parliament and equal status in a federal settlement should have the choice in any referendum.
Quote:
A question for you, though - and Peter. If we were ever to get a nationwide vote, and the people were to vote for an EP, would you accept it?
Again I'm not sure why you should insinuate that I wouldn't accept the outcome of a properly democratic process. If England (and Cornwall) however were only given the choice - EP yes or no - with no other options on the table I would be challenged in accepting its validity. On the other hand the process as described by Peter (Citizens Convention) I would embrace and fully accept the outcome noting that this could include an EP.

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Tue, 2008-07-29 07:04

Fine, Peter. Whatever. Your arguments seem to twist in the wind.

As I made quite clear in my last post, I don't expect an EP to 'naturally' lead to decentralisation. The two are different questions, which need to be tackled separately. An EP is designed to tackle lack of national representation at English level. You don't think that's even an issue - fine. But do stop misrepresenting me when I disagree. I have come across your posts many times on various blogs and the common denominator is your ability to misrepresent, and impute hidden motives to, anyone you disagree with.

I would love the English people to have a choice of options. I have no idea which one they would choose. I think an EP would be a good thing, but I am not a fanatic. I could be convinced by better ideas - I just haven't yet heard one.

As I've said to you before, we both agree on the need for radical devolution. I also want a national voice for England, however. And I am unclear as to why some complex new system of 'regional' bodies is needed when we already have local sources of power - councils - which have served us well for centuries and which, were power to be returned to them, could do so again.

padav said:

Mon, 2008-07-28 21:03

Paul

I don't know how you have the audacity to criticise me for not claiming to possess a complete and detailed breakdown of any proposed English Parliament's fuction. What I do know is that every sovereign institution (and that's what an EP would be in your preferred scenario) instinctively reserves power (in the form of revenue raising capacity and control of the exchequer) to itself.

Would I accept a positive public vote for an English Parliament? I've already gone on record in various OK debates to indicate that I would accept such a vote, provided of course, effective options were on the table for the electorate to choose between. I have also explained how those options could be made available.

That's why I strongly support the Citizens' Convention route advocated by Unlock Democracy. Quite apart from facilitating a serious engagement with the British electorate, an integral element of the ensuing dialogue would be a massive program of objective information explaining the various constitutional options for the future; in other words, potential (sustainable) solutions to the English Question. I was under the impression that you are in favour of such solutions. The fact that some of those proposals might include English Regional Parliaments and a UK federal framework should not carry any threat to your campaign because if you're right the English public will reject them outright and opt for an English Parliament. However we will leave the English electorate to make that informed choice?

What I won't accept and will continue to rail against is a one-sided dialogue in which EP enthusiasts insist that the only option on offer is an English Parliament and that decentralisation will follow naturally - that strategy is simply disingenous and deceitful.

The vote in North East England? Offer people sham proposals for dispersal of power and they will quite naturally turn them down flat. EP enthusiasts make much of public opinion polls. Can I suggest you look at polls about this topic taken up to 2002, when the bungled Prescott English Regional strategy was first placed in the public domain - you will discover a very different public attitude towards the concept of English Regions.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Mon, 2008-07-28 15:14

Peter - I didn't expect better, but at least you have made the effort to reply. Your reply is full of the usual contradictions, of course, but at least we have both made our cases. You're wrong on a number of basic counts, in my view, and a number of your arguments seem to have been developed in order to justify the end point, rather than the other way round (I especially like the fact that your fierce objections to an EP on the grounds of its inevitable dominance of everything can't now be explained even by a 'guess'!)

But there we are. We will have to agree to disagree. Your view is that: 'decentralisation of power is THE issue, there is no other separate matter requiring resolution'. I don't agree, so we shall leave it at that. Except to say that I have no hidden agenda (why can't you get through a post without suggesting secret motives for everyone you disagree with?!) and that I can't wait for the citizens of England to have an informed choice.

Which brings me to Philip. I don't expect everyone to 'latch on' to English nationalism. I don't care whether anyone is an 'English nationalist' or a 'Cornish democrat' or whatever the hell they choose to call themselves. Like you, I would like to see a debate and a democratic choice. Unlike you, I would like to see an England-wide representative body. I don't expect Cornish separatists to agree with me, but until you have forged your own nation - which doesn't look likely anytime soon - you are part of England, so it's not unreasonable for me to want to include you in the process.

Like Peter, you seem to think that a parliament precludes regional or local decentralisation. It doesn't. There's no reason we can't have an English parliament and you also have your Cornish assembly. It would be worth reading my book, incidentally, which calls for precisely that.

I agree that we need to educate and inform and attempt to persaude people - and that none of us know what 'the English people' want, and they probably don't yet know themselves. (though Peter is hamstrung by the fact that the only vote the English have had - or the people of the northeast, anyway - was an overwhelming rejection of balkanisation).

A question for you, though - and Peter. If we were ever to get a nationwide vote, and the people were to vote for an EP, would you accept it?

For my part, if the Cornish were to vote for a Cornish Assembly, I would be more than happy to accept that. But I wouldn't let it get in the way of my wider campaign for a national voice too.

The Cornish Democrat said:

Mon, 2008-07-28 09:13
Quote:
But maybe your real strategy is to deny the population of England any such informed choice in a headlong populist rush towards an "independent" England?

You suggest that the Cornish question won't be answered before the English national question (ie the creation of an English parliament) but I see little to support this claim. What Peter writes concerns me also and such a 'rush' seems to contain little promise for Cornwall.
Paul, in the same why that neither you nor I can speak for England or Cornwall I'm still fairly sure that if you want the support of Cornish nationalists, decentralists, reformers and libertarians of all descriptions then simply expecting them to latch on to English nationalism is naive. It's not about all of us working together to whip the public up into a frenzy of support for the ideas of one group but rather working together to ensure that an informed public has the choice.
If you think the time has come for the ideas you support then lets work together to give the public the choice.

padav said:

Mon, 2008-07-28 06:40

Quote:
The discussion here about English governance has become very confused, especially with reference to an English parliament.

You're certainly right about that Paul - unfortunately you seem to be the confused individual so I'll try to clarify a few misunderstandings on your part.

Quote:
There are two separate questions about governance in the UK. One concerns fairness and parity between the nations of the kingdom. The other concerns decentralisation of power within them.

Maybe for you Paul but not for me. THE central issue is decentralisation of power - everything else flows from that fundamental problem. The UK is dysfunctional due primarily to its inherently centralised structure. The inequitable circumstances you perceive between England and the devolved institutions has evolved essentially because of the deeply embedded and persistent culture of centralisation present within Whitehall and the Westminster village in general. The UK's constitutional fabric simply reinforces that inbuilt disposition.

Break this culture, irrevocably and we (the British people) will see fundamental change like that never witnessed before in these islands.

Quote:
I understand that Peter is scornful of the very existence of nations - or at least, of England. (I'm unclear as to whether he's equally scornful about Scotland and Wales...)

You're quoting me out of context - Nations are not quite the same thing as Nation States and there needs to be a careful distinction drawn between those two terms.

I am not scornful of Nations per se but of the assumption that these entities necessarily provide vehicles for the delivery of effective power dispersal resulting in equitable political outcomes.

There is an argument based around size of population and it is this unavoidable factor driving much of my rationale. For a coherent explanation of these seemingly exogenous influences might I suggest you pick up a copy of "The Size of Nations" by Alesina & Spolaore, in which they expand on the trade-off between the benefits of size and the costs of heterogeneity.

A major part of why Scotland, Wales & N.Ireland all work is due to their relatively small population size and the fact that this makes the function of democratic governance inherently more immediate for their respective inhabitants. One can also perceive this beneficial feature present in Greater London.

Centre - Periphery tensions will always exist. Create a centre and you create a periphery - that is unavoidable but smaller political entities (up to a point - see the arguments developed by Alesina & Spolaore) remain more effective in delivering equitable governance.

Quote:
In my view you're quite right about the need to decentralise power radically away from London and the south east, whose dominance of both England and the UK is a real disaster at present. But this is a
separate question.

Glad we can at least agree on the negative impact exerted by centralisation of power but you're utterly wrong in your assessement - decentralisation of power is THE issue, there is no other separate matter requiring resolution. Create an environment in which decentralisation is the norm and other perceived problems will evaporate.

Quote:
Your proposed regions would not, in any case, answer
this adequately. Cornish nationalists, for example, have complained to
me that the current South West region is a problem partly because it is
too big. For them, being governed from Swindon is little better than
being governed from London.

Seems like you haven't been reading my posts too carefully because you haven't picked up on the fact that I have called (repeatedly) for a reshaping of the English Regional map as an integral element of any route to power dispersal. The current official English Regions are in many cases too large, nebulous and historically ill-suited. I believe that they contribute greatly to the antipathy displayed towards the concept of English Regionalism in some quarters.

Quote:
As for the case you make about an EP 'inevitably' dominating the UK -
you have given no mechanism or examples of how this might happen.

Wrong again Paul - I have already explained to Wyrdtimes how this mechanism would operate in broad terms. Do not ask me to second guess the functional minutiae of an non-extistent institution but can already guess the principle underpinning its dominant role.

Money Paul - Money! You know very well that power = money (or at least, control of it). In much the same way as the UK Parliament currently exerts hegemony over Britain's the political life through control of the central exchequer, so its nascent English equivalent would dominate its constituent elements. Lower tiers of governance, whatever their size and shape would be obliged to draw the vast majority of their funding from a central fund in just the same way as local authorities now rely on the Chancellor's largesse.

If you care to review my postings to this site you will see that I am a firm supporter of a Citizens' Convention as the vehicle through which an equitable constitutional settlement is acheived. A meaningful engagement (not the consultation with pre-determined outcomes you berate) with all of the British people, rather than a one-sided English affair stuffed full of EP activists hell bent on a single outcome.

Given an effective choice between

a) An all-England political entity

or

b) An array of smaller (wherever possible historically relevant) English Regional Parliament

both operating within the umbrella of a UK federal framework and boasting exactly the same primary legislative and revenue raising powers, I know which option I would choose and what's more, given an informed choice, I think the vast majority of residents living in England would do the same.

But maybe your real strategy is to deny the population of England any such informed choice in a headlong populist rush towards an "independent" England?

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

The Cornish Democrat said:

Sun, 2008-07-27 16:31
Quote:
Philip - why do you describe the English movement as a 'populist wave of nationalist resentment'? Is resentment all you think it's about? If I were to describe your movement in Cornwall in the same terms, would you think it fair?
Well actually I do think some of Cornish nationalism is populist. You only have to look back to an EU election were Mebyon Kernow got 10% of the vote running on an anti EU ticket. Thankfully they've change.
I see resentment as a force that can be channelled carefully in to a constructive process. Simply unleashing English nationalism is not this and would do little for the non-English inhabitants of what you consider England.
Whether I'd like the outcome is neither here no there as long as it is democratic and voted on by a fully informed public given a broad spectrum of choices.
Paul, read my posts again carefully and then instead of just taking offence at my turn of phrase you'll see that I actually support the English being given the choice of what form of government they want. I actually state that I respect national self determination in my latest contribution to OK. If you could actually point out where I've said I'd deny the English the right to self determination I'd be grateful, If not you could say sorry.
What I do want is to ensure change by an informed 'English' public and a very democratic process. To reunite all the pro-democracy groups in order to force such a situation we need something more than a campaign for an English parliament to unite behind, and the sooner you get used to that the better for all of us.
Live together, work together, be together; I accept all of this and I don't really know why you feel the need to suggest I think otherwise, perhaps you could explain.
You ask that we work together but only on your terms inside your English nationalist movement, come on you can do better than that.

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Sat, 2008-07-26 06:42

Philip - why do you describe the English movement as a 'populist wave of nationalist resentment'? Is resentment all you think it's about? If I were to describe your movement in Cornwall in the same terms, would you think it fair?

I'm afraid I have a sneaking suspicion that your opposition springs from the fact that you simply don't think you'd like the outcome - which in turn springs from the fact that you are the spokesperson for a minority separatist movement. Fair enough, if that's what you believe. But you can't base your own demands for self-determination on the denying of it to others with whom you disagree.

The 'Cornish' question' will never be solved unless the English question is solved too. I think you need to get used to this idea. You're stuck with us for now, I'm afraid, and probably forever. Might be a good idea to work together.

A C Buchan (not verified) said:

Fri, 2008-07-25 20:26

Having said that Canon Kenyon Wright gives the impression that the Unionists that signed up to it did not understand the full ramifications of what they were doing. Brown et. al. "were signing something which was a direct contradiction of the claim of Westminster to absolute sovereignty".

Gareth

In those days when there was no English nationalist movement the politicians who signed quite naturally thought that nobody in London would give much weight to anything that happened in Edinburgh. This attachment to ‘big player’ London politics is so hard wired into these Scottish politicians that they treat things that happen in Scotland as local to their patch and of little significance elsewhere.

Brown was also, no doubt; too concerned to dish the SNP to read the small print. Similarly, he was too concerned to make a big impression in his last budget [which significantly landed in the middle of the Scottish Parliament election where the SNP were challenging strongly] to notice that his 2 p off income tax would come with a massive political price in the form of the abolition of the 10 p tax band. Brown’s propensity for seeking short-term advantage goes back a long way.

Toque said:

Fri, 2008-07-25 18:53

The Scottish Convention was more of a response to Scottish nationalists, in fact the SNP refused to take part because it was seen to be one of those consultations that had a pre-set outcome.  The raison d'etre of the convention, or at least what was stated, was that Westminster government, the electoral system, and the Union as was, was not working for Scotland.  But despite all that it wasn't about independence.  It also had the expressed desire to act as a focus for the nation, so in that sense it was nationalist (but not separatist) as well as unionist.

Having said that Canon Kenyon Wright gives the impression that the Unionists that signed up to it did not understand the full ramifications of what they were doing.  Brown et. al. "were signing something which was a direct contradiction of the claim of Westminster to absolute sovereignty".

His two speeches to English nationalist audiences are here and here.  They're worth reading.

The Cornish Democrat said:

Fri, 2008-07-25 18:11
Thank you for the clarification above A C Buchan.
Quote:
Constitutional change comes from political movements. It happens because such movements persuade enough people to agitate for it. The Scottish Constituional Convention, for example, sprang from the Scottish nationalist movement. I am much more confident than you about the potential for a similar movement in England to start making waves; the buildup of injustice is stronger by the month, and English people are noticing more and more
I'm sorry to say that I don't put much trust in the English nationalist movement to propose a just solution for the Cornish question.
If you think a populist wave of nationalist resentment is a good bases for a new and just constitutional settlement for all the peoples who find themselves within what is considered to be England then we'll have to agree to disagree.
At the same time I'm not suggesting that this resentment be ignored either, it could, as you say, provide a motor.
A campaign for an English Parliament? No. A campaign for a consultative response to the English/Cornish/Regional/West Lothian question? Yes.

A C Buchan (not verified) said:

Fri, 2008-07-25 16:28

In terms of the way forward, Paul, your statement about the Scottish Constitutional Convention is not quite right. It didn't spring specifically from the Scottish nationalist movement.

Someone who has studied the developments that led up to the Scottish Constitutional Convention may want to contribute to this debate to clarify the details. My own sketchy recollection is that movement that led to the founding of the Convention was a broad coalition that only included the Scottish nationalist movement as one of its constituents [and the SNP chose not to participate in the Convention itself because independence was barred as an option].

I think the convention was only possible in Scotland because the ruling Conservative Party at Westminster: 1) had little electoral legitimacy, and 2) had adopted an immobilist refusal to engage with the widespread feeling throughout civil society that they lacked legitimacy for the radical policies that were being pursued.

This opened up a space, because Westminster no longer seemed to provide a vehicle for Scottish grievances to be addressed. This disengagement from business as usual in regard to Westminster was necessary in getting the thing off the ground. Another necessary ingredient was a small dedicated group of non-aligned people who managed to get the trades unions, churches and other civic groups involved as well as the Labour party and the Lib-Dems. The importance of this was that it had to be seen as not being the property of one political party to be accepted as expressing the will of Scottish public opinion as a whole.

Practical examples of things that helped to set the scene were, 1) mass demonstrations [as was held to coincide with the EU summit in Edinburgh], and 2) a vigil that was set up outside the building in Edinburgh originally earmarked for the Scottish Assembly. This vigil, which lasted for a few years, was very widely supported and acted as a focus for the campaign. The people who manned the vigil managed to maintain their commitment of not moving until a Parliament was granted.

The main point is that the movement that led to the Convention was largely united on the issue of democratic rights, not nationalism. The power of this movement lay in the fact that there was a national community with its own varied civic institutions which felt sufficiently collectively aggrieved to remove their consent from the normal Westminster process. This led, in an almost inevitable way, to the need for a new focus of legitimacy. The churches, political parties, trade unionists and other civic organisations, which participated in the convention, pooled their individual legitimacy to create something that could perform the role of a consultative legislature in order to draw up a new constitutional settlement.

I hope this is useful, others may have a slightly different take on what was significant.

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Fri, 2008-07-25 12:49

Sorry Philip, I don't buy it really. Who's going to launch this 'consultation'? The government? Don't think so. Firstly, it will not be in their interests - and would not be if we had a Tory government either. Secondly, 'consultations' are almost always a sham, designed to produce a pre-determined outcome. Thirdly, without a specific aim in mind, a 'consultation' is so vague as to be worthless.

Constitutional change comes from political movements. It happens because such movements persuade enough people to agitate for it. The Scottish Constituional Convention, for example, sprang from the Scottish nationalist movement. I am much more confident than you about the potential for a similar movement in England to start making waves; the buildup of injustice is stronger by the month, and English people are noticing more and more.

We are at the very beginning of such a process now. The last thing we need is the kind of massive, expensive and pointless 'consultation' so beloved of think tanks and ministries. First, we work to get our message across. We have a lot of work to do, but it is eminently do-able.

The Cornish Democrat said:

Fri, 2008-07-25 08:00
Quote:
 The Scots did not spend 100 years campaigning for a parliament because they wanted mathematically correct regional representation. They did so because they wanted their nation and their people to have a voice. This is now what the English want too
With due respect Paul neither you nor I can state what the English (or Cornish) want. You want an English Parliament but the English themselves have not be allowed the informed debate and certainly have not been asked.
I want as much power as possible devolved to a Cornish body of governance but I cannot state what the majority of Cornish residents want.
We both have a handfull of positive opinion polls and we have stolen the lead on you with our 50,000 signature petition, but none of this is enough.
It is possible that after such a public conversation on the future of English government the majority might prefer to keep England as simply a recognised yet ceremonial nation containing regions with devolved government rather than have an English parliament.
Whatever, we ALL need to be pushing for the consultation.

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Thu, 2008-07-24 08:22

The discussion here about English governance has become very confused, especially with reference to an English parliament.

Peter is critical of the idea of an EP because he says it would not solve the problem of centralised government within England. He's partly right - but only because this is not the problem it is intended to solve.

There are two separate questions about governance in the UK. One concerns fairness and parity between the nations of the kingdom. The other concerns decentralisation of power within them.

The case for an English parliament doesn't rest on it being able to decentralise power to local areas. That's not its purpose. The case for an English Parliament is simple: every other nation in the UK has representation at national level. England doesn't.

I understand that Peter is scornful of the very existence of nations - or at least, of England. (I'm unclear as to whether he's equally scornful about Scotland and Wales...) Fair enough. But you need to understand, Peter, that you are in a small minority here - which may be why you are the only one who pops up all over the web making these arguments. To most people, including myself, nations have a meaning and are a good basis for unitary government. England, whether you like it or not, has been a unified nation since 927, and that has a lot of meaning to many of us who live in it, north as well as south. It is a historical and cultural reality, and no brave new world can erase such a reality. Just ask the Scots.

More importantly, though, three of the four UK nations now have self-government - and the fact that they have it on a national level is the key point. Devolution was not a means of 'decentralising power to the regions' of the UK. It was a response to nationalist agitation. The Scots did not spend 100 years campaigning for a parliament because they wanted mathematically correct regional representation. They did so because they wanted their nation and their people to have a voice. This is now what the English want too.

It seems to me that if your regional dream is to become reality you are going to first have to understand this. You are also going to have to call for the abolition of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly, because it would be untenable for three nations to be represented at national level and the fourth not to be. Your point about the regional diversity of England, by the way, is correct but irrelevant. Dumfries and Galloway could not be more different from the Shetlands (which may be why the latter is talking of seceding from Scotland!) but they are both adequately governed from Holyrood.

In my view you're quite right about the need to decentralise power radically away from London and the south east, whose dominance of both England and the UK is a real disaster at present. But this is a separate question. Your proposed regions would not, in any case, answer this adequately. Cornish nationalists, for example, have complained to me that the current South West region is a problem partly because it is too big. For them, being governed from Swindon is little better than being governed from London.

As for the case you make about an EP 'inevitably' dominating the UK - you have given no mechanism or examples of how this might happen. The powers of an EP, like those of the Scottish Parliament, would be ring-fenced and would only apply within its own nation. As another poster has pointed out, nations like the USA - or India, Canada or Australia - all have federal systems in which the distinct states are very different in size. They do not dominate each other precisely because their powers only apply in their own territory. With an EP, England, it seems to me, would actually be far less likely to lord it over the rest than it is now.

So tell me - how do you envisage an EP 'dominating' a Scotland or Wales which have their own parliaments? Can you give some examples of how this 'mathematical' problem might actually play out in the real world?

Personally, I would like to see an English parliament which can give voice to the English nation. I would also like to see - as I lay out in my recent book - devolution to councils at shire, town and borough level, and in addition to that, more street-level democracy of the kind found in France and the USA.

It may be, as you say, that an English Parliament would not be inclined to devolve such powers. I suspect it may be more inclined to do so than the Westminster alternative however. In any case, if your argument against such devolution is simply 'it'll never happen', could we not apply the same argument to your wishlist?

Incidentally, any EP worth its salt would be elected via PR, as all other assemblies are now, which would make many things possible. Needless to say, it would also need to be based outside London. Again, entirely possible, and what most supporters are calling for.

Paul Kingsnorth
Oxford
www.realengland.co.uk

padav said:

Wed, 2008-07-23 10:52

Philip

Your analysis is more or less spot on, I have always believed that the long term future of the people inhabiting these islands is intrinsically European and that guides my thinking.

We are considering fundamental changes to the manner in which these islands are governed so it is right that we proceed in a careful and deliberative fashion and with the informed (that aspect is absolutely vital) consent of all involved.

In that much longer term timescale referred to above it is entirely possible that a European tier of governance (call it whatever you like at this stage), founded on the democratic principles of openess, transparency and accountability, might begin to assimilate some of the policy functions transferred in any British medium term (approx next 50 years) constitutional settlement, to a UK tier of governance.

This osmotic process of transference would happen naturally, dictated more by the influence of global factors (like climate change) and the growth of confidence in and affinity with European institutions of governance amongst a European electorate, rather than any crisis or ideologically driven initiative.

In summary I perceive the constitutional evolution of the UK as a basic two stage process:

First, during the next few years, some form of constitutional settlement is forthcoming. It is my strong preference that this arrangement, culminating in a written British constitution, is informed, consensusal and inclusive, i.e. involving all current elements making up the UK.

Secondly, as the British people became accustomed to a fundamentally decentralised society in which more localised tiers of accountable governance, managing all of everyday policy portfolios (Healthcare, Education, Law&Order, Housing etc.) were the norm and the benefits of a federal UK structure were increasingly apparent, the notion of Europe playing a bigger role would no longer seem like the bogeyman it is routinely portrayed as in the British media. For example the concept of a European approach to defence, foreign affairs, macroeconomic management, trade arrangements and pan-European transport policy would no longer seem culturally abhorent but entirely sensible and pragmatic.

Given this scenario the UK tier of governance established in the first stage might begin to "wither on the vine" as each important field of policy was transferred to a European level of democratic governance.

Eventually, maybe in 75 years or so future generations of UK inhabitants would pose a very valid question: what do we need this vestige of UK representation for anymore - it serves no good purpose so let's just get rid of it?

In that manner Wales, Scotland, N.Ireland, Greater London and other English Regions (size and shape again determined by a process of informed consent during the first stage) would arrive at the same constitutional destination as you describe.

However, the second stage of this process is so far away (it won't be conceived during my lifetime) that it is probably irrelevant to these discussions. It is just what I would like to happen in the future.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

The Cornish Democrat said:

Mon, 2008-07-21 17:05
Quote:
One's interpretation of "independent" is crucial here. The overarching influence of Europe is also an additional but compulsory factor in our deliberations.
Agreed. I mean dispense with the UK government yet operate as partners in Europe (as well as other sub-european bodies of cooperation).

Quote:
My strongly preferred route to that settlement is a Citizens' Convention (advocated by Unlock Democracy), which has the capacity to act as a vehicle of meaningful engagement with all sections of British society - in other words a citizen driven initiative rather than something managed or directed by political elites and/or self-serving vested interest groups (the usual suspects).

Again agreed and I've said as much in a response to the recent Britology Watch article that must be queued for publishing with OurKingdom.

Peter if I've got this right Wales, Scotland and NI leaving the Union and gaining direct membership of the EU is not such a painful outcome for you. This, however, would leave you as a campaigner for English regionalism in an independent and possibly euro-sceptic England is that what puts you off the Celtic nations leaving the UK for direct EU membership?

Is it that the Celtic home nations leaving the Union before England is effectively regionalised would make your life difficult as a regionalist?

padav said:

Mon, 2008-07-21 14:23

Philip,

One's interpretation of "independent" is crucial here. The overarching influence of Europe is also an additional but compulsory factor in our deliberations.

From my perspective I remain convinced that all of the elements currently making up the UK will have a role to play in the future, which is why I strongly support an essentially federal solution to the UK's current constitutional conundrum.

My strongly preferred route to that settlement is a Citizens' Convention (advocated by Unlock Democracy), which has the capacity to act as a vehicle of meaningful engagement with all sections of British society - in other words a citizen driven initiative rather than something managed or directed by political elites and/or self-serving vested interest groups (the usual suspects).

That process must not only engage with an inclusive audience in the manner described but also provide a profound level of public confidence and legitimacy via -

1. A massive program to inform (as objectively as possible) the British people about the options open to them, such as:

a) the complete dissolution of the United Kingdom and the establishment of various independent countries - presumably England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, although the latter entity may have a big problem deciding about whether to go it alone or attach themselves to Eire (not for me to advance an opinion because I don't know enough about that very complex and controversial issue)

b) A looser Council of the Isles affair in which Eire comes into play as a potential partner - of course the complicating factor here is the Irish electorate and their response to any overtures; they may well say get stuffed (again I don't know enough to offer an opinion)

c) A confederal structure involving the four home nations in which each functions independently; I can't see how that arrangement could be sustained in the longer term but it is a credible option nonetheless

d) A federal structure in which the UK still plays a specific and clearly defined role in key policy areas - defence, immigration and macroeconomic management spring to mind immediately but the vast majority of governance is coordinated at a lower (sub-UK) level.

In this latter arrangement common sense tells me that an all-England entity cannot operate effectively because it would be an extra and unwanted tier of governance. This arrangement can only endure and function effectively as a partnership amongst equals - Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland collaborating with the likes of Greater London, Northumbria, East Anglia, Wessex, Yorkshire and others.

Nevertheless an all-England option should still be an option in this scenario if sufficient support for its inclusion is demonstrably apparent.

That's why I always talk in terms of this process being open to potential discussion and input/change amongst/by the people.

2. A referendum or referenda offering clear, simple and mutually exclusive options to measure popular support (and eliminate those lacking sufficient backing) before moving on to a final settlement. There must be informed choice rather than any headlong populist rush towards a single dogma driven goal - a knee jerk reaction along the lines of "they've got one so I want one too!"

Therefore I don't completely exclude the potential for independence, for Wales, Scotland, N.Ireland or England (or portions thereof), if people express a strong preference for that clearly defined option in an informed manner (the informed bit being absolutely crucial because I don't believe people will choose that route once they fully understand its implications). I simply pour scorn on that outcome because I believe that:

a) It wouldn't be independent in the truest sense of the word (so the choice would be a disingenuous option in the first place)

b) It wouldn't be sustainable in the longer term either

Trust that explanation clarifies my viewpoint on this aspect of the debate?

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

The Cornish Democrat said:

Mon, 2008-07-21 07:43
"England can not only survive but thrive as an independent (from what I might ask?) geo-political entity in a globalised environment - sheer fantasy"
Peter Davidson,
Leaving aside the English question for one moment I'm not sure why you are opposed to Scottish or Welsh independence? Surely this would be a logical step on the path of decentralisation and empowerment for the populations of these two nations. The countries of the Benelux or Scandinavia manage to be sovereign states whilst cooperating so why not the countries of these isles also? Of course we would need intergovernmental bodies but within the EU all this is possible so why do you wish to maintain what is, for me, an unneeded level of centralisation in a UK government? Yes a totally independent Scotland or Wales in this globalised environment is fantasy but that's the point, the wouldn't be, they'd be members of the EU like the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark etc, so why hang on to the UK? You say you are attached to the UK and that the centuries of intergration and shared histroy cannot be ignored, true enough, but as fellow members of the EU where is the problem?

padav said:

Sun, 2008-07-20 13:30

@Barry (The Elder)

I am confused by your comments - if we follow your argument we should ignore the opportunities and clear advantages offered by Regionalisation simply because peripheries exist even within smaller geo-political entities?

Peripheries will always exist - as soon as you create a centre you establish a periphery! Taken to ridiculous extremes your argument will always prevail because one can claim that your own desires, hopes and aspirations are being marginalised simply because you (and your household) are not at the centre of the (political) universe!

Your argument conveniently overlooks the obvious, which is the logic flowing from the effectiveness of smaller geo-polictical blocs. They work more successfully simply because they are smaller, more focussed and immediate for their respective inhabitants.

Of course there is a debate to be had about the average overall size of these entities, how they are structured and interact and the respective communities they represent. Wherever possible they should reflect historical sensitivities, precedent and legacies but this advantageous feature should not be used as a convenient smokescreen (which is habitual amongst English Nationalists) to obscure the fact that England is simply too large to function in the fashion that Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and even London do for their respective inhabitants.

Anyway, if English Nationalists want historical precedent we only need to look at the Heptarchy - circa 700 AD. If more than a thousand years of historical legacy isn't enough for you then nothing ever will be!

The sad fact is that for English Nationalists, logic and common sense goes out of the window.

England is a socio-political homogeneous entity - nothing could be further from the truth

England can not only survive but thrive as an independent (from what I might ask?) geo-polictical entity in a globalised environment - sheer fantasy

An English Parliament, once established, will somehow buck the trend displayed by every other sovereign institution and magnanimously vote to disperse effective power (that means revenue raising capacities) - simply ain't gonna happen

The diverse geographic elements making up England all need very similar solutions - absolute nonsense

England, as part of a federal UK constitutional settlement, will not fatally destabalise said structure or dominate its decidely inferior partners - this conclusion conveniently ignores mathematical certainties

@James matthews claimed elsewhere that my opinions were a “transparent and unacceptable device to further divide and rule."

He’s right about the divide bit but completely wide of the mark in his remaining conclusions; I advocate division and redestribution of effective political power amongst relative equals rather than perpetuating (under an English Parliament) the malign influence, exerted by overt centralism, we (British people collectively) endure in the current UK model!

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

The Cornish Democrat said:

Sun, 2008-07-20 08:41
Peter Davidson has suggested that current regional boundaries should be scrapped; good stuff. I too think devolution to these artificial and unloved government zones would be a very grey and uninspiring option, however a culturally homogeneous and centralised England with an English parliament also fails to inspire this Cornishman.
Taking power from the UK government and re-centralising it in either London or Bristol would totally fail to meet the democratic aspiration of the population of the Duchy and hold little justice for the Cornish identity or culture. Simply offering us a choice between an assembly for the South West government zone or an all England parliament is not acceptable.

Barry (The Elder) (not verified) said:

Fri, 2008-07-18 22:47

If I follow Peter Davidson's (PD) argument which is undoubtably for the regionalisation of England to enable the dispersment of power away from a centralised London, and that the peripheries of England will benifit from such regionalisation, well I think I have some news for PD, I have experience of a region of England (the elected one) which is the GLA, I live in the Wembley area some 16 miles away from the centre and believe you me we are treated like a periphery of the GLA with most funding going to what we call zone one, yes there have been one or two regionwide initatives such has security on the underground, which incidentally covers most of the north of the GLA, my point being most regions will be governed by a city and the rural areas will become the new periphery ( we can see this in the West Midlands) and should the Scots and Welsh gain independence then that would leave it a periphery of a region that itself would be a periphery of the EU governed from Brussells even more remote from the decision making, you see better to be a periphery in a united England ( where the people of England can make decisions ) than a periphery governed by an even more remote Parliament that has absolutley nothing in common with your needs and wishes and further more the country of England has gone, no regions are not the answer at all

Not logged in said:

Tue, 2008-07-08 13:39

Dear Mr Goodhart,

I enjoyed your piece immensely , and welcome more
intelligent analysis along these lines ; alas, I have not the time to read fellow readers comments , so please excuse if there is any repetition herewith

The noble British habit of understatement ( aka emotional repression by some Americans ) alongside a disinclination to fuel the zealots of political correctness ( which, c1992, Geoffrey Thomas pointed out does not stand up to linguistic analysis : usage of the word 'correctness' implies a standard, which itself demands a consensus of opinion - which would remove the need for PC etc ) might help explain the possible outward appearance of wearing national citizenship lightly ...

However , this might not mean that the British , for whom it was once a successful evolutionary imperative , feel their nationality lightly ( and some of whom also feel guiltless pride about the Empire ; regretting only the 80 million or so British passports
granted to colonials by Mr Atlee, according to Andrew Marr , with little or no consultation )

What hope of real integration for the 2 million or so Muslims, who presumably for a similar evolutionary imperative now choose to live and worship among us, if , as Theodore Zeldin reported : " 2/3Rd's of Brits do not trust the French" ( BBC Newsnight , March '08 ) amid our current near histrionic demands for the promised referendum on Europe ? ( " What's Europe got that we haven't ? Rabies ! " )

It could be argued that "the enfeebling effects of socialism" ( most visible against Brown's claim of " lifting 2 million children out of poverty "... straight into illiteracy / drug abuse / prostitution / suicide / knife crime ) means that the British are more unlikely than ever to willingly exchange their former proud allegiance to 'God, King, & Country' for New Labour's criminally over-priced, operationally inefficient ' Client State ', where under the disguise of 'redistribution of wealth' , morally corrupt politicians ( how dare these public servants vote against disclosing how they spend the public's money ) and lawyers get even richer ; and the dependency culture encourages unprecedented levels of crime throughout the country

Moreover, the 'top-down' idea that all foreigners moving to the UK become instant ' pot-noodle' Brits could be why many of the Island's indigenous population ( i.e. chilblains since Doomsday etc ) now describe themselves colloquially as English / Scots / Irish /
Welsh / Cornish - giving rise to the idea of further devolution - while leaving the slightly cartoon
sobriquet ' British ' for those whom they refer to off-stage, as it were, collectively - and without malice -
simply as Ethnics .

On a smaller scale , as even urban immigrants complain about the number of non-European immigrants in our cities , relatively affluent Brits who can retreat to the hills - ergo the countryside, more at ease among it's reassuring monoculture ( despite New Labour's envy-led attempt to rip the heart out of rural Britain by imposing the ban on hunting with hounds ; since when support for the sport has dramatically increased ) ; leaving the frustrated urban white working class, who perceive their own ethnicity / birthright as under threat from ethnic minorities ( now the majority
in several London boroughs ) to vote BNP , and go a-head-butting around the football fields of Europe

Yours in anticipation

The Bolter

padav said:

Mon, 2008-07-07 16:47

Wyrdtimes

It wasn't me that raised the question relating to the size of California in relation to the total USA population but another contributor implying that different States in the USA have widely differing population sizes and therefore the differential between England and the rest of the UK would not present a problem - I was rebuting that argument by drawing attention to the fact that there is a massive difference between 12% and over 80%

It is that latter figure (50 million out of total UK population of 60 million) and the unavoidable imbalance it presents that the English Nationalist community conveniently overlooks.

For example I have also pointed out elsewhere in this thread that the traditional county of Lancashire (this includes both Greater Manchester and Merseyside) together with Cheshire, which functions largely as a commuter belt for those two North West England agglomerations, boasts a combined GDP and population not disimilar to Scotland.

By way of quick answers to your queries:

1. As much as is reasonably practical. Healthcare, Education, Law & Order, Housing, Intra-Regional Transport, Culture & Tourism (off the top of my head) represent a healthy chunk of total public expenditure so this would require substantial revenue raising capacities commensurate with funding these vital public services. Of course there would continue (for the foreseeable future) to be a federal UK tier of government managing other areas of policy; immigration, defence, foreign affairs, macroeconomics and there would have to be some form of redistribution between largely self-funding and semi-autonomous Regions to offset the potential for gross disparities.

2. Unitary authorities are largely performing the task of the sub-Regional tier and that process is continuing apace with traditional counties disappearing fast; Cheshire (where I live) quite recently. There is of course a debate to be had about the relative size of these sub-Regional tiers of governance.

3. In the very long term the EU plays a big role because it may be that eventually some or all of the functions performed by a federal UK tier gravitate towards a European tier of governance but that can only happen a) in the very long-term b) if the European tier assumes the mantle of democratic legitimacy (which doesn't seem likely any time soon) and c) with the consent of the people. To a large extent points 3b and 3c are linked.

4. I have stated elsewhere (several times) that I favour a Citizens' Convention approach. A meaningful conversation with the entire British people about how we want to organise (constitutionally) the UK for the next 50-100 years. Nothing would be off limits to such a process; the role and identity of the British Head of State, the voting method for electing representatives to accountable bodies weilding political power, the shape of the UK regional map (and by default, official English Regions) and finally the scope of powers wielded by each tier.

Once some form of consensus about future options had been reached, a referendum (or referenda) would be forthcoming preceded by a massive (objective) public information campaign. In the field we are discussing here, two mutually exclusive choices might be on offer:

a) An all-England political body

or

b ) An array (number and shape determined during the process referred to above) of English Regions

both of these would effectively boast the same potential competencies because they would be functioning similarly within the scope of a UK federal framework.

Of course this element of any referenda process would be offered (simultaneously) exclusively to the English sections of the UK.

5. That's a difficult one to answer precisely. One thing is for certain - some of the richer English Regions would probably benefit in the short term but in the longer term it might well be the case that the less affluent peripheral English Regions would start to catch up because they would have very different priorities; communications links (with the European mainland) for example.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Wyrdtimes said:

Mon, 2008-07-07 13:17

Oh I know I'm not going to move the unmoveable Peter. Your mind is made up and that's that.

But about that elephant. I must say it's considerably smaller than I expected. Loxodonta Vegrandis if I'm not mistaken.

Peter Davidson wrote:
Reference is made in the critical remark above to California, which constitutes 36 from a total of 300 million - approximately 12%. England constitutes more than 80% of the total UK population - maybe there is a
significant qualitative difference here?"

Peter Davidson wrote:
You seem to avoid the overwhelming (and totally objective) logic of mathematics when it doesn't fit with your argument?

Not only does your statistic not fit with my argument it doesn’t fit with THE argument.

Your totally overwhelming and objective figure still has absolutely no bearing on the situation here in England now or in the future.

England's future is not bound by what's happened in California or anywhere else.

Peter Davidson wrote:
There seems to be a common thread in your responses; the English Parliament deciding everything of substance with people on a more local level putting up with diktat from above.

Yes there's a common theme. The English (and no-one else) should decide what form of government is best for England. The English (and no-one else) should decide law for England. And the English (and no-one else) should decide how English taxes are spent on England.

It's not "diktat from above" if everyone gets a say on the laws that apply to everyone. See below.

Peter Davidson wrote:
What if people on a more local level decide that they want greater control over their own local affairs? Seems to me that the EP is handing down pre-decided wisdom from above - sounds familiar doesn't it?

I'm all for people having greater control over their own local affairs - I suggest referenda from the council level up. Council, county/region, nation. Allowing voters to vote directly on laws for all three tiers.

I believe small government is best so the minimum at every level would be the ideal.

Peter Davidson wrote:
What if the people of London or other established unitary authorities decide they don't want to be part of your English dream? Seems as though they will have to lump it, just like now?

That's a tricky one. Personally I think that most people in London know that it's London, England - and that they are in fact English themselves. I think Londoners and people in other unitary authorities would be convinced to vote for an all England solution.

Not only will English independence bring democracy closer to the people but English tax for England will also bring a much better fiscal deal too meaning better services and opportunities for all.

If the Londoners voted en mass against an EP but the majority outside London voted for it then I guess England would need a new capital.

Anyway, how about your vision Peter... if you'd be so kind.

1. Are your regions fully self funding and autonomous?

2. Are your regions sub-subdivided? Into how many layers. Is there a regional capital?

3. Where does the EU fit in, if at all?

4. Would you go for an England only referendum? Regional government,UK government or English government?

5. If English taxes were spent exclusively on England do you agree that English people would end up with more spent on them per person than is the situation now?

Thanks in advance.

padav said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 20:41

Quote:
Wyrdtimes: “Seriously though, I can't see any significant set of numbers in any of your posts in this thread. Would you be so kind as to put the numbers down so I can see what you mean?” Peter Davidson: "Reference is made in the critical remark above to California, which constitutes 36 from a total of 300 million – approximately 12%. England constitutes more than 80% of the total UK population – maybe there is a
significant qualitative difference here?"

You seem to avoid the overwhelming (and totally objective) logic of mathematics when it doesn't fit with your argument?

Quote:
Peter Davidson:"how will an English Parliament lead to
radical dispersal of power within England?" Wyrd Times: "To be honest I don't know - it would be a task for the English parliament."

Quote:
Peter Davidson:"How would an English Parliament wind
the clock back and rebuild the traditional English County
network in the first place?" Wyrdtimes:"First an EP would have to establish whether that's what the people actually wanted or not. I know - ask the English - what a novelty."

Quote:
Peter Davidson:"Finally how would an English Parliament
deal with the issue of an existing Regional power bloc within its midst; namely the GLA and all that it represents?" Wyrdtimes"Power blocks can be dismantled. It could be
split up into smaller chunks. It could be a special case."

There seems to be a common thread in your responses; the English Parliament deciding everything of substance with people on a more local level putting up with diktat from above.

What if people on a more local level decide that they want greater control over their own local affairs? Seems to me that the EP is handing down pre-decided wisdom from above - sounds familiar doesn't it?

What if the people of London or other established unitary authorities decide they don't want to be part of your English dream? Seems as though they will have to lump it, just like now?

Of course the mechanism for achieving this form of centralised control will be exactly the same as that used now by its current UK equivalent - control of the central exchequer - he who pays the piper calls the tune!

You haven't assuaged any of my concerns - in fact all you have done is reinforce them!

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Wyrdtimes said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 18:52

Don't get your premature certainties up Peter.

Peter Davidson" wrote:
I see you're still ignoring the mathematical elephant in the room.

Elephant? What elephant is that then? Is it a grey one?

Seriously though, I can't see any significant set of numbers in any of your posts in this thread. Would you be so kind as to put the numbers down so I can see what you mean? Feel free to quote yourself.

Peter Davidson" wrote:
again - how will an English Parliament lead to radical dispersal of power within England?

To be honest I don't know - it would be a task for the English parliament. Personally I'd like to see more decisions made by referenda - local and national on a variety of issues. I also think that aboloshing political parties and having MPs that either voted according to their conscience or better still voted in accordance to their constituents desires would take power much closer to the people.

Peter Davidson wrote:
What kind of policy fields would be slated for transfer to the the counties?

For English MPs/people to decide not me - if they wanted the county system back then it would be a question of returning powers.

Peter Davidson wrote:
How would their newly won powers be funded?

I'm no expert but I would imagine that most funding would come through a local tax system of some kind. Where necessary this could be supplemented with strategic funding from central government. Different areas can have different needs so funding per person from central government should be variable but not to the extent of the Barnett Formula.

As I've said before (and you've never countered this point) an all England government, with English taxes to spend on England would have considerably more resources to distribute. As a consequence, funding could be more generous per head across the whole of England than is the case at the moment.

Peter Davidson wrote:
How would an English Parliament wind the clock back and rebuild the traditional English County network in the first place?

First an EP would have to establish whether that's what the people actually wanted or not. I know - ask the English - what a novelty.

If it was what they wanted then rebuilding the traditional English county network would be done the same way as the dismantling - but in reverse.  If a thing can be changed one way via a legitimate process - then it can be changed back, modified or whatever. Via the same process.

Peter Davidson wrote:
Finally how would an English Parliament deal with the issue of an existing Regional power bloc within its midst; namely the GLA and all that it represents?

Power blocks can be dismantled. It could be split up into smaller chunks. It could be a special case. Or we could lease London to China for 99 years. As regional issues affect all England I suggest putting it to the all English vote.

Peter Davidson wrote:
These are all reasonable questions and yet you seem to want to persist with personal attacks - no wonder you despair of my contributions if you are fixated with any individual holding a diametrically opposite view to your own.

Awwww... I wasn't having a go at you on a personal level. It's your negativity, your writing, your hellish regional vision and your perma-certainty I have a problem with not you.

padav said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 12:36

Anonymous, Sun 2008-07-06 05:32 - aren't you engaging in a rather petty game of semantics? You understand perfectly well what I mean. The GLA exists and the geo-political rationale it symbolises seems to be thriving?

Perhaps the limited scope of the GLA's competencies reflects the inherently centralised nature of United Kingdom constitutional discourse rather than the aspirations of ordinary Londoners?

I concur with your sentiment regarding the participation of Scottish MP's in voting on the Crossrail issue. I could at this point berate the role of Whitehall in cancelling the expansion of public transport in Greater Manchester and other provincial cities across England, whilst simultaneously channelling public funds into the Crossrail project for London but that might be viewed as mere parsimony on my part.

I also agree with your parting remark; back to the drawing board indeed but I stand by my advocacy of real dispersal of political power within England and my contention that an all-England political body will never deliver this.

The silence, in terms of meaningful responses to my rational concerns, is rather instructive?

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Not logged in said:

Sun, 2008-07-06 04:32

The GLA was not advertised as a stand alone regional assembly at the referendum and nor is it. Can it set its own university fees or have free for all like scotland and wales, run the NHS or bring in free prescriptions?no.
How is it Scottish MP's including the SNP voted on the crossrail bill? Back to the drawing board Peter.

padav said:

Fri, 2008-07-04 12:47

Wyrd Times

I see you're still ignoring the mathematical elephant in the room. Instead of simply having a go at me on a personal level perhaps it might be more constructive to address some of relevant issues I have raised.

For example I ask for evidence about the potential for dispersal of meaningful power under any future English Parliament and you try to turn my perfectly reaonsable concerns on their head. So I'll try again - how will an English Parliament lead to radical dispersal of power within England?

Traditional counties are frequently mentioned in this context.

What kind of policy fields would be slated for transfer to the the counties?

How would their newly won powers be funded?

How would an English Parliament wind the clock back and rebuild the traditional English County network in the first place?

How would an English Parliament reconcile the vast differentials in economies of scale between large counties like Yorkshire or Lancashire and their minnow counterparts, such as Rutland? We have already seen how that county is just too small to function as a self-sustaining entity.

Finally how would an English Parliament deal with the issue of an existing Regional power bloc within its midst; namely the GLA and all that it represents?

These are all reasonable questions and yet you seem to want to persist with personal attacks - no wonder you despair of my contributions if you are fixated with any individual holding a diametrically opposite view to your own.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Wyrdtimes said:

Fri, 2008-07-04 11:31

When I see comments like Peter Davidson's last effort I feel a wave of despair crash over me.

It's not just that I know I am going to have to spend an hour reading, then re-reading his deliberately impenetrable language. It's also because the world he paints, his regions are like a vision of purgatory. It's grey to read about and it would be even greyer to live.

PD’s premature certainty knows no bounds. He knows that an EP would fail to help the English periphery. He knows it can’t work.  And then there’s warped logic to back his arguments...

Peter Davidson wrote:
English Nationalists argue (passionately) that establishing an English Parliament would lead to radical dispersal of political power across England (traditional counties is usually mentioned in this context) but what evidence do they have to demonstrate this belief?

I'm pretty sure that humans haven't invented a time machine yet. So to ask nationalists for evidence from a future firmly still in the maybe state is a tad harsh. Especially when he has no evidence to back up his own pessimism.

Peter Davidson wrote:
Every other newlycreated institution of democratic political power has always tended to reserve powers to itself so why should an English Parliament, particularly one poplulated by the very same political parties we currently berate on a daily basis, act in a completely different manner? Logic tells me that it won't.

Other examples constitute their own evidence - not ours. Whilst case studies are interesting we really shouldn't let them bind our future.

Peter’s limited imagination crops his world view and his vision of the future abruptly at the end of his nose.

England has a proud history of doing things our own way - we CAN create a fairer, free England. Bring on the new Magna Carta.

I can't be bothered to go through the whole thing line by line - I'd lose the will to live, but then sheer arrogance of his "overarching rationale" needs to be addressed.

Peter Davidson wrote:
I am a Unionist in so much as I believe that the intimate nature of the bonds existing between all of the people inhabiting these islands has been forged from the history of many shared values, challenges, adversities and triumphs over the centuries. We may express dissent about the relative merits of each element within this complex relationship but to pretend that many hundreds of years of history can be discarded within a single generation allowing Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England to pursue their own entirely independent pathways in the world is, well to put it bluntly, just barmy! The relationship between all parts of the UK continues to endure, at least for the next 50-100 years, and possibly a lot longer.

The big fallacy peddling on the spot there is that independence means the end of good relations between the home nations. As I see it the opposite is much more likely. The home nations will see each other in a new light of mutual respect and will actually get on much better.

The arrogance is that his "overarching rationale" is this - if you have an alternative view - you are barmy.

I believe that the home nations can go their own ways and prosper. I believe that relations will be better after independence than they are now. I believe that an English Parliament will make life better in for everyone in England regardless of whether their location is currently considered peripheral (by some) or not. I believe that the peace dividend of finally laying the empire to rest will actually equate to beating swords into ploughshares.

Bloody hell is that a man in a white coat I see before me?

padav said:

Thu, 2008-07-03 23:55

When I read comments like those above I am also truly
perplexed and amazed by the ease with which the (mathematical) elephant in the room is conveniently ignored. It would seem that the simple yet overwhelming logic of numbers escapes many contributors to this debate.

There is a more widespread consensus relating to the marginalization of UK peripheries and I would argue that the (still relatively recent in historical terms) advent of devolved institutions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was driven in large part by recognition of persistent economic and social disparity in these peripheral territories.

We can debate the extent to which devolved institutions have achieved success on behalf of their respective inhabitants but there seems little doubt to me that the strategy of power dispersal has delivered, on balance, a positive experience for those same audiences. There is also some merit in the argument advanced by English Nationalists that the pendulum of redistribution has now swung too far the other way, certainly in respect of Scotland.

English Nationalists argue (passionately) that establishing an English Parliament would lead to radical dispersal of political power across
England (traditional counties is usually mentioned in this context) but
what evidence do they have to demonstrate this belief? Every other newly
created institution of democratic political power has always tended to reserve powers to itself so why should an English Parliament, particularly one poplulated by the very same political parties we currently berate on a daily basis, act in a completely different manner? Logic tells me that it won't.
Hanging a different sign over the door of the current UK Parliament is not
going to reform the entrenched culture of centralism within the psyche
of political élites. It is this very real concern driving my advocacy of robust
regionalism within England.

I am a Unionist in so much as I believe that the intimate nature of the bonds existing between all of the people inhabiting these islands has been forged from the history of many shared values, challenges, adversities and triumphs over the centuries. We may express dissent about the relative merits of each element within this complex relationship but to pretend that many hundreds of years of history can be discarded within a single generation allowing Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England to pursue their own entirely independent pathways in the world is, well to put it bluntly, just barmy! The relationship between all parts of the UK continues to endure,
at least for the next 50-100 years, and possibly a lot longer.

Given the existence of that overarching rationale it makes sense to arrive
at a sustainable constitutional settlement likely to deliver equitable
solutions to all parts of the UK and withing this formal arrangement I firmly believe arrangement I believe that a single all-England political institution will only frustrate the acheivment of that bargain for the English peripheries.

Reference is made in the critical remark above to California, which constitutes 36 from a total 300 million – approximately 12%. England
constitutes more than 80% of the total UK population – maybe there is a significant qualitative difference here?

Nobody is arguing for an artificial arrangement in which each element of any proposed federal UK structure is strictly equal in all respects; that is a fantasy outside the bounds of rational debate but there is an undeniable logic in an argument that sraws attention to the fact that the traditional county of Lancashire (which incorporates the modern conurbations of
Greater Manchester and Merseyside) combined with Cheshire boasts a population and GDP not dissimilar to that of Scotland. Why should the people of such a North-West Region, which displays clear historical and economic legitimacy, be denied the potential to participate in and benefit from the function of a vibrant, robust, semi-autonomous, self financing
geo-political unit within a looser UK federal structure?

If I was ever given an option to choose (referendum?) between such a future Regional Parliament (and I mean Parliament, not an Assembly) based in North-West England and an all-England affair (which would be London based; I have absolutely no doubt about that) each exhibiting similar
competencies and commensurate revenue raising powers, I know which one I would choose – it’s a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. I also believe that an overwhelming majority of Lancashire/Cheshire residents would share this conviction, once fully acquainted with the facts – of course a real problem exists in persuading political élites to present such a clear dichotomy.

Finally, even assuming the loosening of ties between England and other historical UK elements, there is also another not insignificant constitutional obstacle to the creation of an all-England political entity; London itself, which in common with the other devolved territories has been successful in
evolving its own destiny and identity during the (relatively) short duration
of its existence.

The practicalities of dealing with this additional (albeit smaller) barrier and the utterly implausable proposals routinely advanced by English Nationalists demonstrates the relative rationality of my own position.

@Anonymous - Wed, 2008-07-02 23:40
"If the UK decides to federalize, I propose killing London as the capital (the city is so powerful as a media, financial, legal, cultural hub, etc. that if it lost the government it would hardly matter and picking a new capital for England
(Manchester? Bristol? Bolton?) and a brand-new UK capital .. but this time
somewhere cool like Fife, Inverness, Newcastle, Liverpool or Derry."

 

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

P.S. Yes Gareth, there is an overriding European context to this debate but let's not try to cloud the issue under discussion here too much

 

padav said:

Tue, 2008-07-01 11:41

Like the contributor above I also fancy a decentralised European future but
what sets us damned Northerners off is the routine assumption that any looser federal arrangement here must be based on a four (home?) nations template - why?

England as a single entity represents 50 of the current 60 million UK
inhabitants and as such would fatally unbalance any constitutional settlement in which it would undoubtedly play a hegemonic role and furthermore would contribute nothing for the English peripheral regions in addressing the malign influence exerted by an entrenched culture of political centralization – how precisely would an English Parliament based in London, reserving powers to itself, as all elected institutions naturally tend to incline,
facilitate a fundamental dispersal of political influence?

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Not logged in said:

Wed, 2008-07-02 22:40

@ P. Davidson

"England as a single entity represents 50 of the current 60 million UK inhabitants and as such would fatally unbalance any constitutional settlement in which it would undoubtedly play a hegemonic role and furthermore would contribute nothing for the English peripheral regions."

Each time I read comments like this, I'm truly perplexed. What I find amazing is that the British, whom build a few federations (United States, Canada, Australia, India, etc.) can't seem to reconcile this notion within their own country. Why is this?

The UK, with 60m people is a large country. And when a country becomes so large, it is better to decentralize and federalize. An English parliament should NOT undermine a UK parliament because the roles and responsibilities should be clearly stated in a written constitution. For example, in the United States, California is the most populous state with 36m people (and growing!) and its economy accounts for 20% of the US's GDP. However, because of the way the government is set up and the divisions of powers between the federal and state governments, California impacts is in par (more or less) with Arizona, a state with 2m people or New Hampshire, with >1m people. In addition, state governor and the US president rarely interact, unless a natural disaster hits an area. As a matter of fact, in elections, small states are more important than large one. And change in the US starts in the regions and moves to the centre (as oppose to the UK, where change starts in the centre and moves downwards to the regions).

In the case of the UK, the constitution should clearly state what the federal government is responsible for (e.g., matters that jointly or collectively affect one or more home countries). The role of the UK parliament may diminish, but it would not make it any less important.

If the UK decides to federalize, I propose killing London as the capital (the city is so powerful as a media, financial, legal, cultural hub, etc. that if it lost the government it would hardly matter) and picking a new capital for England (Manchester? Bristol? Bolton?) and a brand-new UK capital .. but this time somewhere cool like Fife, Inverness, Newcastle, Liverpool, or Derry.

Not logged in said:

Mon, 2008-06-30 23:00

Thank you for your courteous reply. May I apologise if I 'blew' off there but this is just the kind of specious 'sizeist' argument that sets us Scots off. I'm afraid we will just have to honourably disagree: mine's is a qualitative argument which I maintain and that I think stands as well as your quantitative. A nation is not a mere locality but has a far richer and more intricate and developed texture which is why we punched well above our weight. The size has got nothing to do with it but the complexity and agility of the organism.

The idea of the Anglo-Celtic bloc I think more and more is the solution to our European problems, but alas the idea is not mine but Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun's. He was an important Scottish political thinker and opponent of the 1707 union who was also with Monmouth's rebellion, returning after the Whig Revolution. After Monmouth's unsuccessful attempt, he fled to the continent and offered his sword to the 'Queen of Hungary' fighting with the Austrians at the siege of Vienna, 1683, against the ever-expanding Caliphate. Surely one of the most signal moments in European history. So a good chap all round and valiant champion of liberty.

The Anglo-Celtic bloc was a project that was proceding along very nicely in these isles until Edward I came along with his unaccountable aggression towards a friendly cousinly nation and set back this project by 700 years. He could have won by friendship what was only achieved by 400 years of war.

Fletcher in the 1680s was for a British (Whig) union but envisaged it as a federal one (as you do, if you're Scottish, Welsh or Irish) but when the eventual 'incorporating' union proposal came up saw that as establishing a permanent minority status for Scotland within 'Britain' with no local autonomy which meant political slavery for the Scots (even if they gained commercial freedom in return). Thus he came to a very far-sighted analysis of a 'Europe of the regions' in which there would be balance and harmonious working which would prevent tyranny by any dominant part. An ardent European (who wouldn't be, after Vienna), he saw the British Isles as being one such federal bloc. He argued staunchly against centralisation saying that it mitigated against both liberty and local economic vitality. He saw London as a bloated parasite leaching the life out of the entire achipelago, as much an oppressor of its own people as those of the rest of these isles.

With petrol heading towards £2.40 a gallon I fancy this decentralised Albion, with a Council of the Isles, could come back into fashion.

David Goodhart said:

Mon, 2008-06-30 13:41

To briefly defend myself against two misunderstandings - both from
Anons. Anon of last Thursday accuses me of stereotyping England as
middle class and Scotland as working class - but what I actually did
was to compare the two countries middle classes, with the English being
more private sector and individualist and the Scottish (middle class)
being more professional/statist. That is a heroic generalisation, of
course, and like almost all statements in this debate it is partly
based on stereotypes - but it is a different stereotype to the one I
was accused of by Anon (Thurs). 

Anon (Friday) is determined to
discover English arrogance and so has me claiming that Britain was made
by the English. What I actually said is that it was "substantially"
made by the English - which is perfectly compatible with the well-known
disproportionate contribution of the Scots to empire etc - but the
sheer difference in size and scale make it almost mathematically
impossible for the English not to have played the most "substantial"
role in creating and sustaining the union. Scotland played an important
part in the civil war - but I'm not sure it was quite as substantial as
Anon (Friday) claims, and in any case it is not called the English
civil war for nothing, it took place after all before the political
union (and I thought it was Stuart not Stewart, or is that English
spelling!) Still, I like the idea of an Anglo-Celtic bloc in the
European Union.

Wyrdtimes said:

Sun, 2008-06-29 11:55

It’s great to read something positive about Englishness coming from Mr Goodhart. Although I disagree with a lot that he’s saying.

"a minimum national sense of "being in this together" is still necessary to avoid long-term ethnic balkanisation and a small, low-tax state".

Avoiding "ethnic balkanisation" would be good - have a word with some of the immigrants about it. The indigenous population are not responsible for all the problems of integration faced by immigrants. The onus is on them to fit in, and not the other way around. Freedom of speech for instance - is non negotiable - and anyone’s gods are fair game.

And why is it necessary to avoid a low tax state? Personally I think that is exactly what we should be aiming for. That doesn't necessarily mean cut services - I’d like to see alternatives to paying cash to the state - as they only waste it once they have it.

It seems liberals want "redistribution of wealth and generous welfare".
As far as I’m concerned; fair redistribution of wealth can only happen slowly and through better education and increased opportunities. Generous welfare robs people of the necessity to strive and improve themselves and as far as I can tell is perpetuating not removing the underclasses. That may suit the political and some of the under classes but it’s doing no-one in between any favours at all.

I've had a couple of extended periods of unemployment and the state helped me out.. So I am all for a safety net but not an extended lifestyle choice. I also object to people having 8 kids and expecting someone else to pay for them. Hello! Limited resources - use some contraception.

About England. Mr Goodhart asks...

"Britain has been an extremely successful multinational state. Personally, I would be sad to see it go. Moreover, if it ain’t broke...Surely the English are big enough to live with some small representational and public spending biases in favour of the small nations of the United Kindgdom. What exactly are English interests? And how are they being suppressed? (And one could ask the same of Scotland.)"

I’d be like to see the UK replaced with a council of the Isles - one where England gets to sit at the table.

If it ain’t broke? But it is broke - and new labour broke it with the way they tackled devolution.

Devolution has left England ruled by a man making laws that don't even apply to his own constituents. No mandate Brown has to bleat "Britain" and "our Country" from when he wakes up to when the mercy of sleep takes him. England. He dare not speak its name.

Then the state weighs our lives on crooked scales. There may be a case for slightly more funding per person in remote areas but no way is a Scottish life worth so much more than an English or Welsh one. The Barnett Formula is an insult to 50 million English people.

Then there's how inequitable funding manifests; better drug availability, lower or no prescription charges, smaller classroom sizes, care for the elderly etc. I'd not deny these benefits to the Scots or Welsh or Irish - good on them! The English should have the same too - but there's no-one talking for us.

England is big. Big enough that it doesn’t have to put up with the British Governments warped sense of justice and its delusions of global significance.

We need an English Parliament that speaks for us. But let’s not be half hearted about it - let’s reform parliament while we're at it. Make parliament and the civil service and the military smaller and more flexible - lets make waste history starting at the top - and for gods sake lets get rid of the political parties and vote for people instead.

Like he says an EP "would make the UK parliament increasingly residual and thus erode the political bond between England and Scotland."

Let's say farewell to those political bonds then, and say bon voyage. When the political bonds are broken we will still be neighbours and before long we will find a new level of friendship and co-operation between the ex-home nations.

Who knows how far it could spread?

Home rule for England.

padav said:

Fri, 2008-06-27 13:49

An interesting viewpoint on this complex issue but I am confused by many of
the conclusions reached.

The author openly declares that the English role within the UK is ill
defined at best;

Quote:
The paradox of Britain is that although it was substantially made by the English they did not – unlike the other British nations – define their own role in it. England dissolved
itself into Britain, and so to this day has only minimal political/institutional identity. There is indeed no formal English political community, one of the reasons why sport has
become such a rallying point for expressions of English
identity

Having acknowledged this key aspect of cultural reality in 21st century Britain I am therefore puzzled by his routine assumption that any reshaping of the United Kingdom political/constitutional map would necessarily proceed on the basis of a traditional “four nations” template.

Indeed, David Goodhart admits to a sense of personal sadness at the constitutional impasse Britain finds itself in and that “the break-up of Britain is still not inevitable”, yet he offers no other credible geo-political models for further consideration?

It is true that the characteristics of groupings perceived as “outsiders” are seminal in identity formation and in this instance that “others” role is defined in terms of those geographical elements of the UK outside England but why should that factor in isolation necessarily result in increased levels of affinity for English residents?

For me a much more powerful influence in this equation is Britain’s inherently centralised structure, which remains a perennially negative feature of the UK constitutional landscape, despite the transfer of limited political influence to devolved institutions of accountable governance in Belfast, Edinburgh, Cardiff and London itself.

The only (half-hearted?) suggestion offered by the author as a potential solution to the UK’s ongoing dilemma is a Royal Commission. Why is no consideration given to the prospect of a Citizens’ Convention; a vehicle that could provide a credible vehicle for developing a meaningful, i.e. no predetermined outcomes and no taboo topics, engagement with the
audience that really matters in this instance; the British people?

In the closing section of his article David Goodhart does at least partially acknowledge in tangential fashion the malign impact of economic disparity and social inequality within England itself but his comments are limited to rather predictable North-South divide references and defined specifically within the context of a future exclusively all-England political model.

If the United Kingdom does endure, despite its current difficulties, albeit as a much looser federal arrangement, concluded between partners of relative equality, this model would seem (to this individual at least) to offer many other positive alternative scenarios?

 

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

avtar singh said:

Fri, 2008-06-27 07:39

i think the best solution to the "west lothian" question is to devolve all the powers that scotland has received down to the english counties or, even better, direct democracy :) 

Not logged in said:

Fri, 2008-06-27 00:11

It is so typical that you think the English made 'Britain', my god, the arrogance and ignorance of that is just breathless. It is the kind of arrogance that has me (a Scot) gasping for the 'exit' button. A few facts:
1. The 'United Kingdom' came about by the King of Scotland becoming King of England in 1603. All British monarchs since are related to the Stewart line. Are you seriously going to deny this Scottish input was other than a signal moment in the genesis of Britain? Or was this all accidental? There are TWO Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in these isles, (possibly three) and this was the calculated product of 300 years of off-on policy.
2. It was the Scots who were the catalyst for the most pivotal moment in 'English', (I would prefer to say, 'British') political history - the civil war against Charles I, and the limitations on the power of the executive that had been inclucated in Calvinist theology for over 100 years aided by George Buchanan's political thinking. The contribution the Scots made politically, militarily and intellectually to these outcomes were at least as great as the English. Charles I could not fight two parliaments, one in Edinburgh and a government in London, at the same time, and this Scottish revolt broke the deadlock and gave the English parliamentarians the opportunity. Otherwise the Star Chamber could have continued indefinitely. George Buchanan was as major a thinker on the powers of the executive as Hobbes or Locke, and preceded them.
3. After the Union the Scots embraced imperial opportunities enthusiastically (being blocked in England by anti-Scottish sentiment) and basically built the Empire. A disproportionate number of Scots were colonial governors and we were also the shock troops of the Empire.
I could go on and on ad nauseum, but you catch my drift.
You are confusing size with input. But the relative size of our populations was once 1:6 whereas now it is more like 1:12. This is all because of centralisation of wealth and government since the 18th century, and latterly, immigration.
After years of being a Nat, I now don't want the British Union to end; I want a fully functional federal British Isles (including Ireland) that respects and co-operates with each other and stands against Euro-imperialism whilst maintaining sovereignty for our respective nations. We have regional security, energy, cultural and economic interests in common; far more with each other than we have with Brussels. I was encouraged by the Irish vote.
Europe would work much better if instead of the Franco-German empire writ large, it recognised that there were regional zones and respected these. A Europe that recognised regional diversity, a Europe made up of blocs, would make more sense.

Not logged in said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 22:34

"And there is no doubt that the English middle class – broadly defined – is culturally quite distinct from its Scottish equivalent – it is more individualistic, more private sector, perhaps more enterprising – indeed it is this cultural divide which seems to be one of the factors driving the independence movement."

Well, I doubt that very much. As nationalists, you're obviously going to pounce on the whole English=Middle Class, Scottish=Working Class thing, and hold onto it for all eternity. Never mind if it's true or not.

It sounds like you've just made up an imagined Scottish middle class based on common factoids about Scotland.

Not logged in said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 21:52

The trouble is Labour and the Lib Dems believe that a united England and the United Kingdom are mutually exclusive and are therefore determined to snuff out England.

Personally I don't see why the English should suffer any disadvantage, but assuming that we "are big enough to live with some small representational and public spending biases in favour of the small nations of the United Kindgdom" I don't see why this should extend to Britishness being rammed down the throats of our schoolchildren while the Scots and Welsh may revel in their own nationhood. This is just one example of social engineering at the expense of English identity.

The biases are not that small either. England has no direct representation in the UK, the EU nor indeed the world, at the political level.

I have asked this many times and never been given an answer. Supposing England is replaced by feeble regions and Scotland and Wales only then decide to go independent where does that leave the English? It leaves them stateless and powerless, which is of course the objective.

I have grown to despise and resent the United Kingdom over the last 11 years, and I was not a big fan of it 20 years before that, as I saw the English as the whipping boy for the whining "Celts".

There is no sound reason for England to remain in the UK and there hasn't been for 301 years.

Stephen Gash

britologywatch said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 19:27

I sympathise with you, Jack - as an English nationalist, born and brought up in England, with a Welsh mother and half-Irish father! That's one of the reasons why I think it shouldn't be down to the Scots alone to determine the future of everyone else in the UK in a referendum on their independence. A single new constitutional settlement for all the nations currently included in the UK should be put to a referendum of all UK citizens, e.g. the question could be: "Do you agree with the proposed new constitutional arrangements for all the countries that are presently part of the United Kingdom: independence for Scotland, and federal parliaments for England, Wales and Northern Ireland within a continuing United Kingdom?" - or whatever constitutional settlement is worked out.

I think that, unless there were a clear majority in all four countries for the deal that had been negotiated, it should not go through. However, if Scotland voted for independence but the other countries rejected what was on offer for them, Scotland should be allowed to go ahead and a new deal would have to be sorted out for the rest of us. At least, this way, everyone with mixed national-UK allegiances would be consulted on a single settlement for all the nations.

Not logged in said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 18:28

As an anglophone Welshman with some Scottish ancestry who lives in England and has lived and worked in other Commonwealth countries, the apparently inexorable drift, or sleepwalk to break-up of the UK infuriates and depresses me in equal measure. I was not allowed a vote on the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly. I was not consulted about their powers and have no say in their doings.
It would seem that they can decide unilaterally to leave me as a foreigner in a country of my choosing that was not supposed to be any different from my ancestral home.
There are more Scots in England than there are north of the border. I guess the same probably applies to the Welsh.
Are we to be treated as foreigners in our own land? The whole nationalist movement in both countries is a fraud and rides on the backs of the ignorant and chauvinist stay-at-home minority.

Jack Edwards

britologywatch said:

Thu, 2008-06-26 17:51

I agree with you, David, that there is absolutely nothing to fear from a break up of the Union and a new nation-state of England (or possibly, England and Wales). In fact, I think most English people would / will be delighted when this happened / happens - far from being resentful towards the Scots and Welsh, as you suggest at one point.

You do, however, seem to think this will most likely arise only as a result of decisions taken by the Scots. Admittedly, this will probably be the catalyst. But if we can see it coming from afar, shouldn't we start to plan for it proactively and start working out a constitution for the new state, including whether the Welsh and Cornish want to be part of it? It seems to me that, because you at heart regret that a parting of the ways betweeen Scotland and England will happen, you don't want to plan for the future after it actually does take place, in case that amounts to willing the divorce into existence in the manner of a self-fulfilling prophecy. But if we just drift into an England after Britain, we could end up with the worst of both worlds: a rump-UK, without Scotland, but with all the flaws of our present political system.

We should see the break up of the UK as the best gift horse for radical constitutional reform we've been offered in centuries. Let's not look it in the mouth!

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