Quote of the day

The sudden assertion of human criteria within a dehumanising framework of political manipulation can be like a flash of lightning illuminating a dark landscape

Vaclav Havel

Syndicate content

Login

Login or Register to be identified in your comments

Everydaylifemodern

Email & RSS

Sign up to oD's editorial summaries email:



Follow oD on Twitter


Add oD to your Netvibes: Add to Netvibes

openDemocracy likes

Australian Islamic Communities


Posts: 38
Joined: 2005-03-02
sorry for the emphasis on Australia in what follows… however, it’s only natural to seek reassurance that an attack similar to the London bombing won’t happen here. An indication the mission in Iraq is a success would have to include a noticeably better understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims in ways that show the coalition having won the hearts and minds of the majority of Muslims around the world. This is far from present day reality and a long way off from being realised, as recently demonstrated by the former National Party Senator John Stone’s article in which he rationalises multiculturalism to be a source of danger to Australian society, calling for a stop to Muslim immigration and for extremists to be expelled: “The Blair Government's intervention in Iraq is not to blame. Rather, successive British governments have persisted in the multiculturalist folly that a nation can be built on separate but equal cultures.” http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3713 Comparing, or confusing, Australian Muslim communities with those of England and the rest of Europe, or even the US (there are around 350,000 Muslims Australia-wide compared to over a million in London, for instance) just isn’t helpful, and Stone overlooks important differences between us. Recent programs on Radio National have raised and discussed questions such as, ‘Are we having the right debate and are we talking to the right people within the Australian Islamic community?’ and ‘How loyal are they to their Western homes?’ in ways which highlight a rich diversity of Islamic traditions and practices to be found within Muslim communities throughout Australia - their various problems as well as making suggestions, such as training clerics locally rather than sending them to places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. What bothers me is the way Stone reinforces negative stereotypes, while his sentiments will undoubtedly have the effect of further dividing and polarising our nation at a time when a shared sense of purpose would be a far better place to start from. This shouldn’t be a surprise and shows that for the most part, we’re obviously still not ready for certain conversations to take place. While mainstream media could do more to help dispel some of the myths, this isn’t happening. Instead, the majority of journalists continue to make the mistake of projecting an image of an essentialist Islam; suggesting all Muslims being of similar likeness, whose core cultural values threaten to undermine the foundations of our pluralist and democratic way of life. A consequence of skewed media coverage is to put Muslims through unrelenting scrutiny that only heightens social tensions - something we ought to be trying to avoid right now. The fact is there isn’t anywhere near the same level of antagonism between our Muslim population and mainstream Australia compared to England, making it far less likely we’ll experience a terrorist attack like the one in London. That doesn’t mean to say it can’t happen here, and it would be naïve not to acknowledge or examine hardcore Islamic elements which do exist - unwanted material (recently tossed, I believe) on 'how-to carry out a terrorist attack' has no place in a society striving to find balance and equilibrium at this time. Fortunately, there are other things going on besides, much of which is positive. Spokespersons are beginning to emerge from within Muslim communities who can talk responsibly. These are Muslims who emphasise the need to embrace and respect pluralist Australian cultural values above other loyalties, who understand their communities and what is going on around them, as well as what is happening within the Islamic and Western worlds. In this regard, a change in media coverage that allows for nuance and contextual reporting would also be a positive indication we’re handling things much better than we have been. John Stone's article suggests more needs to be done to make widely known the different kinds of individual and collective experiences found within Muslim communities, and to put these into a readily understood Australian context. The Glory Garage: Growing up Lebanese Muslim in Australia Nadia Jamal and Taghred Chandab http://www.allenandunwin.com/shopping/ProductDetails.aspx?ISBN=1741146496 Message was edited by: lagaco Message was edited by: lagaco


Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.


Posts: 800
Joined: 2004-07-31
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
An indication the mission in Iraq is a success would have to include a noticeably better understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims in ways that show the coalition having won the hearts and minds of the majority of Muslims around the world. That just isn't going to happen and never was. Lets get realistic here. The Islamic world seems perfectly content to suffer under an endless string of tyrants, despots and dictators and wont lift a finger to help themselves. Why weren't the tanks that liberated Baghdad Muslim tanks ? John Stone is probably correct in his assertions. Multiculturalism is a mess and creates division and instability, based on the idea that all cultures and cultural values are equally valid. It amuses me how the 'left' fall over themselves to accommodate or rather gloss over Islams disgraceful attitude to womens rights and its repression of Gays. What 'multiculturalism' has come to mean, whether that was the original intention or not, is a kind of cultural apartheid. Isn't it ironic that the 'left' spent so much time and energy condemning the evils of apartheid based on race and colour, and yet seem to spent just as much time and energy furthering the very same thing only based on culture and religion. John Stone may be has a better grasp on matters than you give him credit for. In America the Muslim community by and large sees themselves as Americans and then Muslims. By contrast here in the UK we now have a situation where a large proportion of our Muslim citizens do not feel any sense of loyalty to the country that is their home and in some cases actively loath and hate it. We have been far, far, far too tolerant of radical Islamic groups who pour out bile and hate at every verse end. But our Muslim fellow citizens must shoulder much of the blame. They have totally failed to integrate very much with the wider host culture and population and seem to be content to live in ghettos. The dogma of multiculturalism has done much to encourage and underpin this silly state of affairs. What bothers me is the way Stone reinforces negative stereotypes, while his sentiments will undoubtedly have the effect of further dividing and polarizing our nation at a time when a shared sense of purpose would be a far better place to start from. This shouldn't be a surprise and shows that for the most part, we’re obviously still not ready for certain conversations to take place. The problem is partly that some conversations which are badly needed just can't take place because the 'thought police' will instantly jump up and down if they do. Many of the problems we in western societies face are not really of our making, but then again may be some are. Often on this forum one reads posts from people who seem quite intelligent and sensible, and yet they themselves loath and despise their own societies and countries. If you want to fight Islamic terrorism, which in all candor we damn well must, you have to know what you are fighting for.



Posts: 38
Joined: 2005-03-02
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
It amuses me how the 'left' fall over themselves to accommodate or rather gloss over Islams disgraceful attitude to womens rights and its repression of Gays. In what way do you imagine I have accommodated disgraceful attitudes towards women or the repression of gays? Message was edited by: lagaco



Posts: 800
Joined: 2004-07-31
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
Did I say YOU had ?? I did not. I was actually thinking of Ken Livingston and the Muslim cleric he welcomed with red carpet and open arms at City Hall. Many Womens Groups and many Gay Groups whom Livingston had courted and regarded as a personal fiefdom were not impressed and rightly so. But doesn't his actions and attitudes like his speak volumes. I think it does. we’re obviously still not ready for certain conversations to take place. From your last post and its tone this would seem to be very much the case. Pity, could be an interesting conversation.



Posts: 38
Joined: 2005-03-02
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
Owly, sorry if what you meant by the tone of my post was caused by a typo and dashing off a reply - it wasn’t intentional, I promise! Curious to know how you thought I was supposed to guess you were thinking of Ken Livingston though??? What came to mind when I read your comment is the way all Australians are granted equal access to welfare services and laws which offer protection should anyone fall victim to (or be threatened by) domestic or criminal violence. And how we’re given religious freedom. The only change I would make to what I wrote earlier, is to recognise it’s only natural for many Muslim’s to feel loyalty to their religion first and foremost, and how there’s likely to be a conflict in loyalty if family in other parts of the world are seen to be unjustly treated as a result of American foreign policy. I’m fine with that, and don’t think of it as necessarily being a threat to with our way of life. I would rather know and try to understand the various kinds of dynamics within Muslim communities and work in with what’s there, rather than trying to force change where it’s likely to be rejected and lead to conflict. Even though we're in major disagreement over this, I'm alright with that. I'm not going to rant and rave over it, in other words. However, maybe you can explain more about your opposition to Islam from the point of view of being gay - which I believe you are, aren't you? Apparently there's some rabid homophobic material found in Islamic bookshops here in Australia and I'm not sure what can be done about it. It's strange though, I know men who are gay and who mix freely with Muslims. I'm wondering how it can be so different.



Posts: 800
Joined: 2004-07-31
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
My previous post was perhaps a little too general and you could not in anyway be expected to realize I was thinking of Ken Livingstone and Yusuf al-Qaradawi. I can do no better than quote David Thompson from another discussion on this site -: ‘Also widely ignored are the contradictions of an opportunist alliance between the hard political left and the extreme religious right. Thus we arrive at the perverse spectacle of Ken Livingstone defending Yusuf al-Qaradawi as “moderate” while demonising as “Islamophobic” those who protested against the Egyptian cleric - including, ironically, a number of reformist Muslims. The fact that Qaradawi is the ‘spiritual leader’ of the Muslim Brotherhood, a xenophobic organisation with well-documented historical links with Nazism, somehow escapes attention. And while ever the left defends clerics who are bigoted and irrational (and very nearly insane), real moderate voices are marginalized further still.’ I agree with every word David wrote. Those who are citizens, be it of Australia or the United Kingdom, are entitled to ‘equal access to welfare services and laws which offer protection should anyone fall victim to (or be threatened by) domestic or criminal violence’ as you wrote, and I never have thought anything else. I can understand why a Muslim might feel loyalty first and foremost to his religion, BUT he/she has to recognise that that loyalty to religion and culture must be secondary to the law of the land, and I regret to say that some forget this small caveat. My attitude is very much that of Queen Elizabeth I. Like the Queen I have no desire to have a ‘window into a man’s soul’, but I would expect their loyalty to the State, and that is the basis of our religious freedom – you are free to practise your religion so long as you harm no one else and don’t betray the State. When a Jesuit missionary was arrested and taken to the Tower he was asked a question: ‘If the Pope landed with an Army at Tilbury for whom would you fight – Pope or Queen ?’ This came to be known as the ‘bloody question’ because to say you would fight for the Pope made you a traitor, thus deserving a traitors death. Many of my fellow citizens now feel that there is a section of the population who would, if an Islamic Army landed at Tilbury, take up arms against their fellow citizens. Yes, like David Thompson, I’m Gay, but this is not the reason I oppose Islam, but because I am a Christian. It is not possible for me to acknowledge Mohammed as a prophet, and indeed he was in theological terms an ‘Anti-Christ’. However I assume you are not Gay and as such it may be a little difficult for you to appreciate not only the discrimination and sense of isolation many Gays feel, but also the difficulty caused to many Gays by the clash of their homosexuality with their religion. I was going to say they are strange bed fellows, but that may not be in the best possible taste. Persecution of Gays by the ‘religious’ is not the preserve of Islam of course, but in the modern world they are by far the most zealous and vicious. If memory serves me right only last year 3 or 4 men were beheaded for ‘Sodomy’ in Saudi Arabia and a number of homosexual men were sent to prison in Egypt. These are far from rare events. Last month 2 teenagers were hanged in Iran because they were Gay. And so it goes on. I cannot tell you the number of Gay men I have chatted to in Islamic countries and the miserable lives they lead as a result of the intolerance of homosexuality by Islam. Even on this site a Muslim contributor described Gays as ‘biological failures’ and when it was pointed out where such thinking ultimately lead, and echoed Nazi thinking, she threw a strop. But that merely underlines the thinking of many mainstream Muslims. I think you can understand why I would rather give asylum to a Gay fleeing such persecution than people like Abu Hamzer or Bakri et all.



Posts: 38
Joined: 2005-03-02
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
I also agree with David, in principle, but my feeling is that he obscures as much as he reveals. The vast majority of us (self included) have little to no knowledge of the Islamic world or of Muslim communities which are part of our own society, and so it isn’t surprising for there to be so much confusion on the subject. In regard to your strong objection to multiculturalism, apart from extremist elements (anyone who is willing to kill innocent people to achieve a political end) which I believe needs to be looked at separately, could you please be more specific about what aspects of Islamic culture you feel are at odds with Western society (the overwhelming majority of Muslims who are relatively harmless that is)? I’m generalising here, but is it the way many Muslim women dress; the (idealised) cultural value placed on women maintaining their virginity before marriage; the way they pray five times a day; encourage strong family ties and spend a lot of time together; emphasise family honour; are patriarchal; the practice of Ramadan: or what is it exactly that bothers you? Because I have no problem whatsoever with any of this making up part of the fabric of our society - in fact, I enjoy having them here, and can’t see how they’re a threat in any way. Many of my fellow citizens now feel that there is a section of the population who would, if an Islamic Army landed at Tilbury, take up arms against their fellow citizens. There are around 200 members of the Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir in Sydney and so they’re hardly in a position to take us over. Nor are we under any threat of an invading army. Is it really that different in England??? It is not possible for me to acknowledge Mohammed as a prophet, and indeed he was in theological terms an ‘Anti-Christ’. This is a personal/theological question, but one I’m interested in hearing your views on, if you’re okay with that? Because you’ve experienced ‘discrimination and isolation’ from being gay, I couldn’t therefore imagine you have ever discouraged a homosexual male from practicing his religion, even if it is Islam, or refuse counselling because his religion doesn’t correspond with your own religious beliefs, am I right? Or do you feel so strongly that Mohamed is the ‘anti-Christ’ that any Muslim in your mind is condemned, literally, to an afterlife of hell, and so not deserving of your respect unless they are open to accepting your Christian beliefs? I cannot tell you the number of Gay men I have chatted to in Islamic countries and the miserable lives they lead as a result of the intolerance of homosexuality by Islam. I’m not gay, but I definitely don’t like to hear about teenage boys leading miserable lives because of the intolerance towards homosexuality they encounter. I’ve made it clear to my son that he is never to entertain that sort of bullying, which he never would, I’m sure. How though, if you would care to explain, does the invasion and occupation of Iraq which has led to so many thousands of lives having been lost, make life any easier for these Gay men you’ve talked with in Islamic countries? And why should anyone be expected to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to bring about democratic reform in the Middle East which you so obviously hope for, as a way of liberating men and women from tyranny? Message was edited by: lagaco



Posts: 800
Joined: 2004-07-31
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
lagaco, Interesting post, and I am sorry for the delay in replying. Been away. You may have got the wrong end of a few sticks, so I will try and answer the questions you ask. Multiculturalism is, to me, a nonsense. What passes for such here, or rather the way it has developed here, has resulted in nothing more than 'cultural apartheid', which is why I used the phrase. This is actively encouraged by the various agencies of the State and as a result we have a situation where the population leads 'parallel lives' where there is little or no interaction between different communities. My view is old fashioned, that I freely admit, but I feel the Muslim community has to bend its ways to that of the 'host' culture. To recognise that you are British does not, in someway, invalidate your Muslim identity and cannot see why you cannot be a ‘British Muslim’. I do not think it is too much to ask and to expect that you show loyalty to the State and your fellow citizens no matter what race, creed or colour they may happen to be. What has happened with the dogma of Multiculturalism is that the left (it is one of the lefts toys) have used it as an effective weapon to beat the host society. They have denigrated their own societies to such an extent that you are almost not allowed to be English – and it is really a hate of England and the English which underpins much of it. I also think one has to be rather wary of thinking that many of the things you regard as 'Islamic' are actually that. There is a big difference between Islamic customs in say Saudi Arabia and say Egypt. You mention the veil and yet in Egypt they have belly dancers don't they ?! So it is hardly the norm. What is perceived as ‘Islamic’ is mostly a version of Islam promoted by the Saudis and is a very hard-line and extreme version. I would also make another point on Islamic dress. The other week I read an article in a newspaper which quoted a girl at a school in Luton where the school dress code had been taken to court. Now a Muslim girl has 'won' the right to wear the headscarf, which is all well and good you may think. Yet now all the other girls are being forced by their families to wear the damn thing because they can no longer go home and say ‘we can't because the school rules forbid it’. One girls desire is now imposed on the many and their freedom and liberty has been impinged. So now, with that knowledge, what would you rather see ? I would plump for what happened before. I also think that because all children where then 'equal' regardless of race or colour. By wearing the scarf you make yourself different and apart, thus erecting a barrier between yourself and your fellow pupils. There are around 200 members of the Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir in Sydney and so they’re hardly in a position to take us over. Nor are we under any threat of an invading army. Is it really that different in England??? May be so, but that is not really the point I was making. There are 1.6+ million Muslims in Britain and the activities of relatively few has lead to an impression now amongst many people that a large chunk of this Muslim population hates and despises the very community and society which welcomed them. This worries me. Homosexuality and Religion is a big topic and a very difficult one. I'm an Anglican and it has a more tolerant attitude to Gays than many Christian churches, be they non-conformist or Roman Catholic, but it does cause many Gays much heartache. Many of the proscriptions against Homosexuality, which are so oft quoted, are drawn from the Old Testaments and are actually mistranslations, or when the texts were written the word had a different meaning. As to the New Testaments Christ himself never mentioned the subject and there is a school of thought that two of the disciples were Gay. Many Gays go through a ‘torment’ because of the churches teaching, or rather its perceived teaching, and I have met many Gays who find it hard to reconcile the two. You are right to say I have never discouraged a Gay from seeking counselling or support and I have tried to help many such people merely by listening and encouraging, but it is not an easy task. There is no perfect solution and we all have to arrive at our own solution, to square our own conscience and make our own peace with God I suppose. My own way of doing this is strongly disapproved of by someone I have chatted to on the Net, and yet for all his bluster and ‘piety’ I do not believe myself he has squared his own particular circle. As to Gays and Islam this is again an emotive issue. As I say Gays, like Christians to a lesser extent, are persecuted and hounded in many Islamic countries and the cases I mentioned were fact not fiction. A simple net search will bring up more details for you. ‘I definitely don’t like to hear about teenage boys leading miserable lives because of the intolerance towards homosexuality they encounter’ - with respect this is not what I said. The two teenage boys I mentioned were hanged because they were homosexuals. There was probably some spurious reason given, but one of them was just 16. Had he been executed in America these pages would be full of bile at how cruel and unjust American society was, and yet because it is a Muslim country no one gives a toss. I also think you have misunderstood my comments on Islam. As a Christian it is not possible for me to acknowledge Mohammed as a Prophet and he is technically an ‘Anti-Christ’, because he rejected the divinity of Christ which is a central tenant of Christianity. It is basic logic really. I have no problem with any Muslim practising his or her religion in England, providing they do not interfere with any other citizen and that they abide by the law of the land. You mention Iraq. I have never stated that I believed it was right to wage war against Saddam to free Gays. My reasons for supporting the war have been given endlessly and I reaffirm them. I believe Saddam was a cruel and wicked tyrant and that to free the Iraqi people was a moral thing to do. I also think that trying to bring some form of democracy to Iraq was a noble cause and would, finally, help to avenge the cruel and brutal murder of King Faisal II in 1958.



Posts: 38
Joined: 2005-03-02
Re: Australian Islamic Communities
Owly, my apologies for not writing sooner; sad to have to say however, that one of my husband’s closest friends (also mine and the kids) died recently, and so I haven’t been much in the mood for thinking about the sort of things we started to discuss. Besides, I’ll never get used to cyberspace and really want to finish up here - I can’t figure out the rules of this particular game and my head just gets scrambled. I draw portraits, which possibly explains a lot. In any case, by way of response to your last posting, I’ll leave you with these two sayings. One is from my Chilean friend whose company I very much enjoy and who labels her philosophical outlook ‘the big salsa’ of which I’m in total agreement with, and the other I got from a fortune cookie tonight which also seems fitting: ‘knowing is not as good as loving’. Anyway, thanks for the exchange Owly, which I did appreciate. I hope you stay safe and happy, and that you find the best of whatever it is you’re looking for. With very best wishes…. :)


Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <cite> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd><b> <i> <br> <p> <div> <img>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • You may quote other posts using [quote] tags.
More information about formatting options