I was only joking!

Yes! but were happy morons. Why not get the chip of your shoulder?

With all due respect Brolly it might be nicer, and more accurate to refer to 'the pro-Israeli lobby' rather than 'the Jews' considering the huge number of Jews inside and outside Israel that want a just peace and an end to US double standards in the region. Such as Matan Cohen, 17, from Tel Aviv, who was recently hospitalised after being shot by the IDF while demonstrating against the seperation fence/apartheid wall. It is often said, and has been confirmed in a recent academic study, that US foreign policy has been driven by the American 'pro-Israel lobby': http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/695495.html But all the same the small number of influential people that might be driving US policy at the top in certain undesirable ways does not warrant saying 'the Jews' are responsible. In a similar way as one could not reasonably blame the behaviour of Mugabe on 'the blacks' or the behaviour of Musharref on 'the Asians'. I do not find stooping down to such a level, whatever the provocation, to be very prudent or fair.

Brendan, Apartheid roughly means the state of being apart. It can mean segregation or separation of groups (not necessarily racial). People like to play words with people's lives and argue about whether it is a wall or a fence, or whether it is racism. The point is the discrimination of one group of human beings against another and its effects. The wall is being built to cut a line through land, and seperate two major groups. On the one side the land is reserved for Israelis, the majority of whom are first or second generation Jewish immigrants. On the other side are Palestinians, the poorest of those Arabs that were unfortunate enough to be under the British Mandate of Palestine when it was handed over to Zionists. Is it racial? Yes and no. It doesnt really matter. One might have said anti-Semitism wasn't racism because Jews aren't a race. Laws were drafted against Anti-Semitism specifically because of this. Now we are to believe that Israelis cannot possibly discriminate against Palestinians because... the numbers prove... what exactly? I am intrigued by your figure of: "40% of Israelis happen to be of Arab/muslim descent." May I ask where you have taken this figure from? May I also ask if this same proportion can be found within the Israeli Government? They are, after all, the ones who instructed the building of the wall and the separation it is enforcing.

Brendan, The page on religion in Israel you link to states: "Israel is an explicitly Jewish state, both ethnically and religiously. Israel's official policy is to preserve this aspect of the country's character. However, Israel is not a theocracy and other religions are respected." But are these statements of fact internally coherent? If Israel is to be (majority) religiously Jewish, and yet the state is not theocratic, there is no guarantee that the religious aspect of the country's composition can be maintained. If 51% of Israelis tomorrow stop practising Judaism the goal of the state, to preserve a majority (religious) Jewish population would fail. Only a theocratic element to the state, that is a direct consideration of and intervention in the level of people's belief on the part of the ruling government, can ensure one of the goals of the state of Isreal. If Israel is to be (majority) ethnically Jewish, and yet the state is not actively concerned with racial demographics, there is no guarantee that the ethnic aspect of the country's composition can be maintained. Hence the separation wall may be considered a barrier marking out both race and religion, as specifically stated in the goals of the state of Israel in the link you give. I never wrote that I believed the state of Israel to be a religious theocracy, but there is a clear fracture between the idea of a genuinely democratic, secular state in a globalised world, and one that seeks to portion of an area for a particular ethnic, and religious group. You may feel it appropriate to 'warn' about using a term but clearly the further one examines the situation the more it becomes clear that only with separation on two counts, race and religion, can the Israeli state achieve its stated aims.

brolly, I know you were doing it because of what Emmaunuel was saying. It is difficult to roll with pigs without getting dirty - guess we all have to decide when its worth the stains. Or not. As long as there is space for the discussions you mention (about Palestinians) there is surely hope. I am not brave enough to visit Israel/Palestine. Maybe I will do such things when I'm 74, if I live that long.