"bad but not that bad"? What is that suppose to mean Tim? I just watched it on the news this morning, Blair has left the G8 to head home and that everything was still being sifted through. "bad but not that bad"? Thats cold. Joeanna

Eduardo Ferreira, You have spoken with wisdom. What we have witnessed on TV in London today is shocking. However, we must realize that this sort of carnage has been perpetrated on thousands of innocent civilians in the 'shock and awe' bombing of Iraq. The hundreds of Afghanistanis who had nothing to do with the Taliban or Al Qaeda,who have been killed or injured when bombs were dropped on so-called guerilla targets without checking them to be absolutely sure that there no civilian lives at risk. We have elaborate military funerals in both the UK and the US, when we mourn our dead. Yet it is not official coalition policy to count the number of Iraqis we kill. Do we really care - I doubt it. We merely pay lip service and excuse it by labeling it collateral damage. Should we be surprised that we are creating people whose emotions are numbed by their direct experience or that of those whom they consider their brothers. When the Jewish people in Palestine were fighting their war with the Arabs, Jews from all over the world went to Palestine to help in the struggle. Well, the same applies to the Muslims. We may not like it but they too have a brotherhood. The greatest problem we all have is to see only one half of a picture in relation to a conflict in which we are involved. It is as if we have an inbuilt mechanism that protects us but at the same time exposes us. Thus we do not learn but perpetuate grief and strife. There will be those whom I label the 'usual suspects' that will seize upon todays events and call for more of the actions that have brought us to this sad day. We must recognise that we have some responsibility in that we have tolerated and even assisted oppression and fanned the flames of war in the Middle East - Iraq and Iran, in which hundreds of thousands died. There are no easy answers to the situaiton we find ourselves in today and we could be at the opening chapter of an assymetrical war between religions that will become more terrifying as it progresses. The invasion of Iraq has not helped and most certainly has served as a recruiting sargeant for those that seek revenge for what they believe are injustices.

Phew!! Now I know what the Bush cultists meant by the slogan: "Better there than here!" ...I guess their strategy is working:

Eduardo: Thank you for a thoughtful and intelligent reply. I appreciate your point that, in attacking Islamic nations -- or any nations for that matter -- we tend to create enemies and to perpetuate the war. This is the self-reinforcing nature of violent conflict. It is, however, intrinsic in the nature of all violent conflict, and you can never get rid of it entirely. The best way to minimize this tendency, however,is to present the enemy with a better future. In World War Two, America made occupied Germany and Japan into allies,by treating them well and giving them a free government. We are now doing the same in Iraq, and, God willing, this will have the same long-term effect. I do not believe that the West is at war with all Arabs or all of Islam. I believe that the average Arab or the average Muslim is like the average person everywhere: they are focused on their own lives, and what they want is freedom and prosperity. America has no quarrel with the average person on the street, in any country. However, I am tired of people in the West leaning over backwards to pre-emptively say how nice and tolerant Islam is. Islam is a large religion,with a complex history. It certainly contains many civilized and enlightened voices. I am very fond of the poetry of Rumi and I think that mystics such as Ibn Al 'Arabi are the equal of religious thinkers in any tradition. Having said that, however, Islam obvious has a long history of aggression toward the non-Islamic world. Bin Laden may be an extremist, but he is recognizably within the Islamic tradition. To say that Islam is basically peaceful and basically non-violent is flatly and simply not true. How do we deal with this? Number one. By not lying about it. Number two. By working with the forces in the Islamic world which want to modernize and to live in peace with the West. Number three. By hunting down and destroying all of those who attack us. Regarding Spain, you clearly are far more conversant than I am with the detailed facts of that election. From this distance,all I saw was the government ahead in the polls, a terrorist attack and a sudden stampeding to vote for the party opposing the war. It looked like appeasement to me, as I am sure it did to Bin Laden. From what you say, it sounds as if the situation was more complex than it seemed. It sounds like the government panicked, lied in a stupid way about it and paid the price. (I remember that nonsense about the Basques. Even from this distance, it was obvious nonsense.) I also appreciate your point about Spain sending troops to Afghanistan, rather than Iraq. I think we in America often lose sight of the fact that some European nations can disagree with us on Iraq, yet still support us in the war on terror. One of the best ways of showing that is support in Afghanistan.

It is unfortunate that for some stupidity knows no bounds. Glad everyone on here is OK. We knew it was coming but it doesn’t make it any less horrific. The view of the Spanish election held above is a clear theme of what the US media instructed its citizens to think on the matter. This then leads to similar criticism to any response different to that of the neo-cons after 9/11. Right wing commentator Charmaine Yoest wrote after scurrying around London to talk to survivors, “Of the dozen or so people I interviewed only white males in business attire expressed surprise that anyone would think the British were at fault in anyway. But these gentlemen were the minority. Most felt that the Brits were complicit. The people at London's ground zero were sounding like the "wobbly" Spanish after their train bombings.” http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010962.php I feel it is highly unlikely the British people will be taken in by the rhetoric from our war mongering murderous government but unfortunately the gutter press will be singing the same tune. At this time more that any other time it is important for progressive voices to be out there, loud and clear, to counter the drivel being spouted. I complained to GMTV this morning about their presenter’s use of the nonsense phrase ‘war on terror’. I’m not usually one for email campaigns etc but I think it is extraordinarily important now to counter the extremists that command our state and media.

Brolly: I have a suggetion for you. Focus on the positive for a while. Instead of always attacking the evils of America, tell us what you would like to see instead. I treat you like an unreconstructed Commie, because you talk like one. If, in fact, you have some new ideas, well,hey, lets hear them. I assume that your ideology begins and ends with hatred of America, hatred of the Jews and hatred of capitalism, because that is all that I have heard from you. If there is a positive vision you have -- something that you love rather than hate-- lets hear about it. Social Democracy is not exactly a new idea -- yes I have heard of the New Deal and its European counter-parts -- but if you can suggest ways that it can be made to work better, hey, go for it. All of this Left negativity is do bloody depressing. I would honestly like to hear about something you guys like.

Brolly, You said: "Your critique of the American free market and capitalist system was first class." Thanks for the compliment, but I did not particularize the free market as American system or not. Neither had I addressed the Capitalism. My critic was about the general idea of free market. I have to clarify this, or else I would be engaged in multiple and unproductive discussions with people that would interpret my words as an attack on the American way of life. "I too have no ideological identifications, having never believed in this infinitely complex world, that it is possible to work out a theory that explains all and that can prescribe what is best." You have just summoned the problems with predetermined reactions and preconceived ideas. But I must confess that you told me something new, as I had the impression that you where ideologically directed. Maybe there is something on your way of saying things that leads people to think so, and is not just a rightwing preconception since I also was mistaken. "I am in agreement with your view of what an economic system should be about. However, from rick's point of view this makes me a 'leftie' or 'commie'." Well, I just criticized the free market economic system. But I hardly stated what would be the ideal system. In fact I think systems adapt to the elements that compose it. Therefore the free market system is a reality because of the present human condition. On the other hand, people are born into this system and, as such, adapt to it. If we where to take a man and women of today and put it in Eden, probably the man would kill the snake for its skin and the women would try to sell the apple. As for Rick stating that you would be a communist by criticizing the present economic system, I disagree. He might reach that conclusion, as I would, from your usage of somewhat of the classical language adopted by the communists (like "capitalist system"). Again this is the chess opening example, if you present a classical move you will get the classical response. You might try to use a nonclassical aperture (other words). That would certainly put the other player thinking.

tanguy, Read your post. We certainly know where you stand. The elections in Spain were very close. If the Spainiards thought that pulling out of Iraq was going to solve their problems with the Arab world, they were wrong. Here is one simple fact you either avoid, or didn't find in your propoganda class. eight months after the Madrid bombings, the elections and the pullout of Spainish troops from Iraq. Spainish police arrested 37 terrorists who were planning MORE bombings in Madrid. Bombings sites included a building designed by the same person who designed the World Trade Center, the offices of Spain's leading anti-terrorist judge and Madrids main soccer stadium. Just because you run away from the battlefield, that does not mean the enemy won't come after you. Why didn't running away from Iraq appease muslim terrorists in Spain? Because their purpose had nothing to do with Iraq. They have the idea that Spain should return to the ancient rule of the Caliphate of the 14th century. How does that figure in with anything you imagine so far? One other further fact you might like to choke on. There are more terrorists being held in European jails indefinately than in Guantanamo. The problem is the same im both places. What do we do with them? Of the seven French terrorists released from Guantanamo, six are sitting in French jails. "The whole planet" was against the coalition invasion of Iraq? That's your version. Ask the Kuwaitis and the Saudis. Ask the Jordanians. Those are just his neighbors who are glad to see the last of that butcher. Never forget that the US has many, many more friends in the world than enemies. It doesn't need terrorists and those who support them.

NeoP(shortforplagerer) "BETTER HEAR THAN THERE" I see instead of "bring 'em on", you found a new way to smear the dead. Tsk, tsk, tsk

OH MY GOD!!! Start off with a simple friggin post on how bad I felt and WHERE is the Responsibility of JOURNALISM and it becomes a discussion from Spain's election-Islam/Islamic haters-whatever ttrry attempts to talk about?-to someone elses economy! You folks consider yourselves intelligent, well let me plainly spell it out for you. 1. immediately after the attack, journalist kept saying "we havent gotten any confirmed claims of Al'Queda, but it was a highly planned attack 2. were listening for chatter, ususally theres chatter in an attack. Are we so stuck on Al'Queda and Iraq that we are forgetting about what had just happened? Lord knows that weve got a lot of nut jobs here in America (and in other countries too-did a psych paper on it) Cant we for one moment wait to find out if it really was an Al'queda attack instead of assuming? Everyone keeps posting about left-wing/right-wing media ...wow, lets just allow the dust to settle, mourn the deaths and worry about the injured and the families related. Have we gotten so far away from the HUMAN condition that we cant have a moment for them? We did for those who lost their lives at 9/11, the muir building(homegrown terrorist) out of respect. The same respect I would give to an Iraqi family if a terrorist bombed their school. Show some respect peolpe, lets not get so caught up in the hate terrorist cause lest we become as coldhearted as they seem to be. For all you that post here that are from England, I pray for you, hope that your families and friends are safe. I pray for you dead and the agony of their families and loved ones. Joeanna

Eduardo_Ferreira, I am somewhat surprised that you thought that my posts indicated that I had ideologial fixations. My use of the word capitalist in association with free market is not uncommon and is not contradictory. It is true that I deplore aspects of the capitalist system but you have expressed pretty much the same sentiment when speaking about its waste of natural and human resources. Most of my criticism has been aimed at the neoconservative ideology and it's influence in the Bush administration. It is not incorrect to say that its basic economic tenet is free market capitalism. Granted that this is a rather shorthand way of describing this apsect, but OD is not a place for detailed academic nuance and scholarship. I am basically more interested in revealing the cant that surrounds so much of what we are told by the right wing media and our governments, which is a point made forcefully by yourself. If this makes me sound as if I have ideological preconceptions then I think that people reading my posts have not properly understood what I have said and have attemtped to do. So much of what is posted by people such as Ttrryosborn, henry_hart, TimLFrancis, fdbjr and Rickgibsonlaw is hypocritical. They simply cannot equate the killing from their side with the killing from the other side.While it is clear to me that realpolitic takes no account of lives, for them there are illogical and spurious distinctions, based on their naive belief that the political leaders have a higher moral dimension than do their adversaries.It is simply not the case.It is entirely a matter of perception and relativity and not any innate difference of conscience in the protagonsists. Anyone that can authorise the use of cluster bombs and nuclear tipped munitions that will expose children for years to their deadly effects, should not be considered on a higher moral plane than anyone else. Especially when the real reason, as you have pointed out, is for oil. Message was edited by: brolly3

Eduardo_Ferreira, ["And I agree that the participation of some people on OD is exasperating, with a dubious morality and a partial evaluation, not to mention inexorable positions and endless repetition of preconceived ideas. However you do get to upset by their tactics".] Actually I do not get too upset by the tactics of those that you referred to. I am playing a rather bizarre game with them. It is almost like being in the trenches in 1914-1918.I am fighting a war of attrition with my opponents. On some days it is 'All quiet on the Western Front' and on other days there is sporadic activity. It is a question of who can last the longest. I have seen many come and go over the last few years, all saying the same thing. No doubt there will be more. The truth is that OD is a diversion for me at a time when I have not too much to do. Message was edited by: brolly3

Eduardo_Ferreira, Your phrase 'jolly good show' is typically that of an English Gentleman, perhaps watching a game of cricket or some other sporting event but never football. It was much in use in the past and tends to still be used among the elderly. I am afraid that in these cynical days,the phrase is going out of use, as Gentlemen are hard to find among a disrespectful public. By the way, strange as it may sound, I have never watched Monty Python. I must be one of only a handful of Brits that can say this. I assume it is a form of English humour, which I suppose is very much an acquired taste.

Fear has been commoditized by the far Right, and it is now a bona fide industry with production goals, cost/benefit analyses, and shareholder dividends. As per The Power of Nightmares and the grand illusion of Al-Queda, hyping the "terrorist" threat is a cheap, cost-effective way of advancing fascist agendas. Business is definitely booming, and if you buy the product, then you too will be sufficiently addled to agree to any "security" measure, not object to any military "incursion", pay any tax, and vote for any politician (How many of the dead voted for Tony Blair?). For the scared, I say: You deserve it, it looks good on you.

Why should anyone have been surprised by last Friday's London bombings? The Blair government were repeatedly warned by British intelligence that appeasing the Bush administration and participating in the unlawful invasion of Iraq, would immeasurably increase the risk of terrorist attacks in Britain. Friday's attacks must be condemned but we would do well to remember that such horror is an every day event for most Iraqis. The true test of the new Iraqi government's legitimacy, was the extent to which it allowed foreign troops to continue to occupy its territory. Clearly, the fact that Coalition military forces are still occupying Iraq, show that its government is no more than an American puppet. The escalation in human rights abuses of the most appalling kind is yet another characteristic typical of a U.S. backed regime.

Rickgibsonlaw...... Sir, you are of course correct, no-one who comes here and posts can claim they do not bring ideological bagagge and viewpoints with them.... I do so.... even though my ideological viewpoint can best be defined as "Incoherent".... Sometimes I'm not even sure what or why something outrages me until I start to talk or write about it. I'v been a visitor\contributor to this site long since long before Bush announced he was going to invade, conquer and occupy a country one tenth the size of his own.,.... I remember Brolly as being here before I was..... OF course he opposes the so-called Bush Doctrine... what sane human being who is not a paid up neo-con ( 99.9 per cent of humanity) does not? We've all seen it in action..... it's proven to have been catastrophic to all and anything people like me hold dear, such as principled democracy. Give Brolly some slack.... he's been here fighting the good fight ... when people like me have taken months off to go away and do some study and research..... or straightforward relaxing, which in my case means trying out cases of Cabernet Sauvignon. He's someone who see's that the future of the entire Planet is being pissed away and is angry at it. I agree with him.... though I may and do differ on some of the specific causes. He's stood here, often alone, and taken pounding after pounding from people who would cheerfully send your children off to die or be maimed in places like Iraq but won't go there themselves or send anyone they know and care about.... I've seen it. Don't yet know which side of the idealogical fence you sit on...... I will have to go through some of your posts firsts...... But unless you believe you are living in a world.... and on a planet.... where everything is going to turn out just fine and your kids will have a better life then you will...unless you believe that is true...... ( Global climate destruction, peak oil, wars started at the whim of leaders "elected" via fraud, The USA military budget now bigger then the rest of of the planet combined, Human breast milk of the Inuit in Northern Canada so loaded with PCB's that by law it has to be incinerated as a toxic waste product et al.....) Unless you think none of the above is anything to be concerned about.... I would hope you are just as angry ( Ie "Negative")... as he is... Because I am... and I've pissed off more people here then he has because of it. Regards, DaveGood PS..... I do my best to follow the rules and guidelines OD have set....... I respect and honour what they are doing..... but I refuse to automatically pay respect to anyone till they've earned it..... Everyone get's a few tries, a few attempts.... but once it's clear you have not and cannot earn my respect, be you friend or foe..... what you can expect from me is contempt. I have no idea into which category you fall.

Richgibsonlaw ok.... This has to be quick.... it's late and I'm drunk.... Rick..... here's the problem ( Mine and yours..... I have a solution to mine...... let's see if you CAN find a solution to yours)..... I have opposed Saddam Hussien since the eighties.... I was campaigning ( Along with thousands of others around the world) to have him removed and brought to trial in front of some sort of international tribunal from the time he gassed his own people...... Now bear in mind this was well before the internet.... So I was doing this through phonecalls and mail...... Who did i write to? Who did I phone? Who did I plead with? Guess what.... Conservative governments on your side of the pond, and mine..... who assured me blandly there was no need for concern..,.. there was no proof Saddam either had weapons of mass destruction or had ever used them..... then a few months later Donald Rumsfeld went to Baghdad, gladhanded Saddam, handed him a huge gobbet of American tax payers money....... and arranged the delivery of more WMD which he was later to claim Saddam never had any right to own.... ( I've still got the video clip of this on my pc.... want to see it?. The fact is Rick, I don't trust America anymore.....It is blatantly dishonest.... I don't trust it's right wing (and to us... the democrats look right wing).... Dubya has lied, lied, and lied again, then lied some more..... no-one .... no-one outside of America itself..... now regards the word of any senior American as haveing any value......... we'd all rather you just piss off and leave the rest of us to try and deal with the f*cking shambles you have left us. We'll try and get something done about global climate destruction for example.....something we can't do with Dubya sitting at the table blocking every move the other 95 per cent of humanity want to make. But we can't do sod all until you guys implode..... which shouldn't be too long now considering the 2.3 billion dollars you are haveing to borrow every day from the rest of us just to keep yourselves going and your hyper-rich tax-free.. By the way..... Do you really consider it vital.... as the worlds only, unchallenged super-power ..... to have a military budget bigger then the rest of the world combined? ( Bear in mind, you cannot pay for it...... You are relying on daily loans from China to keep you afloat right now!) And consider this, the Bush administration has described the Spanish, the French, the Germans as Gutless cowards...... so guess how much support you will get from the European Union in the Future? Night night DaveGood. PS.... I think I'm beginning to get a grasp of exactly what your "ideological stance" is...... and I'm certain you have a grasp of mine..... this doesn't have to make us enemies.... though it probably will....... and should it do so,...... my distress....., on a scale of 1 to 10?..... You can rank as "Mild" I'll say this..... based on what I have read of your writings so far I expect to challenge and force you to justify everything you post here..... and I fully expect you to do the same to me..... I'm willing to awknowledeg at the outset though.... before we pull our knives fron our boots and get serious.... All other things being equal?..... I'd buy you a beer and listen to your jokes:) Goodnight

Joeanne Nee You really need to have some hard evidence to say something like that. Regardless of where you heard it. You can't just repeat something you've heard without any facts to back it up. This is way I seldom read posts on opendemocracy, because some people think it's ok to be cavalier with the facts about issues and events they have strong opinions on. Not only have you just regergatated false information, you defended it as though it was good currency. One small piece of advice, question everything before you start believing it - and before you post wild and inaccurate statements, ask yourself one more question 'where's the evidence'?

Joeanna, And you really do like to have the last word. [smile] Take care, Tim

Callous disregard for Iraqi civillian losses only invites our callous disregard for the dead in London, and indeed, callous disregard for US war dead (Something the Bush admin is already practising.) It is amazing some here fail to see how so very lost is the war in Iraq. The US and UK are planning to split mid-2006, and are missing nothing but a white flag to signal the absolute failure of the fiasco. All in vain. The simple fact is that the insurgents, being at home, have no where to go: either to complete victory, or death. Also, with God inspiring their unlimited supply of suicide bombers, versus US troops who are inspired by nothing but hefty signing bonuses, one insurgent is equal to 100 invaders. And you can make that 500 when the troops realize they are leaving in mid-2006, with nothing to show for their efforts (remember Kerry's Vietnam War-era testimony: who will be asked to die last for a mistake?).

brolly3: It is amusing that when the faith-based patriots are compelled to look in the mirror and confront callous disregard for the loss of human life, -when it applies to their dead (the 50 in London and the 1,700 troops in Iraq), -their rhetoric soars regarding the sanctity of human life in inverse proportion to when it applies to 25,000 innocent civillian casaulties ("collateral damage"). Double standards are for criminals, who refuse to obey any notion of the rule of law, and for cowards, who lack the courage of their professed convictions. The Bush cultists are both.