open Democracy News Analysis - India Vs Pakistan, - Comments

sriharish.padmanabhan on "India Vs Pakistan"

sriharish.padmanabhan — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:40:57 +0000

And "And we don't mind showing our progress"? what progress were you refering to again? :P Peace

Zeshan on "India Vs Pakistan"

Zeshan — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:19:28 +0000

God! Please turn of your caps lock, if you want to shout go do that on the street or something during the next parade or something.. Can't say I really agree with your view on Muslims in Pakistan, went to Gujarat just after "you know what" and was pretty much convinced of being on the right side of the border, and no I do not mean the Indian Side. Thus just the fact that the law says that all are equal does not result in the practice of equality for all, still with me? Ps. no Musharraf would not send "A SWAT TEAM AFTER MY ASS", but probably they would laugh and think, ah an other escapee from the loony hospital. But your welcome to come to Pakistan an view our situation without your "ass" being owned or hooted out of the streets because you are a Indian. And we don't mind showing our progress AND our bad side,to grow as a nation one must acknowledge once faults... Ps, the opposite happened (very negative responces) when I went to India, all that anger toward Pakistan and we really are "just" 8 times smaller then India, great hospitality guys, really great..."sigh" Regards Just A other Mughal

tupac17_5 on "India Vs Pakistan"

tupac17_5 — Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:02:09 +0000

. [Edited by: oD Forum Moderator. Abusive language not welcome in forums.]

Zeshan on "India Vs Pakistan"

Zeshan — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:58:08 +0000

At skanwar18 Sorry for the late responding, but better late then never. Ill just ignore the other comments made by the more boastful members from both sides; it never really results in anything positive.. Sorting problemswhere to begin: Yes Musharraf (besides him being a damn dictator) is making some positive changes, unfortunately this is not done trough a legal government. On the short term this matters not yet on the long term this will not learn people how to make these changes through a normal government. Yet I think he has no choice the parting gift of the English, the rajas, is a big problem in Pakistan. Those landlord families dominate the parliament and seem to be of a certain traditional character. Put that together with helping their own and the certain amount of corruption and the progress of Musharraf comes to a (almost) grinding halt. The fact that the military has its own families with their own interest is not helping Musharraf either so whatever change will come has to be from the normal people and going up. Thus; since several years the local election have been changed to accommodate new people and making it easier to remove old Hatis whom are corrupt or dont pay back government loans or whom sold government property on the side for cheap prices.. In all it is a change for the good and taking into consideration that this has also been implemented on the state level I believe that the results will be betterin a year or 10. (Side note) Since the change from a largely agricultural exporting country to a more industrial the wealth a power of the middle class has grown in the last 15 years. Change was slow in the coming but most of the old typical things seem to be disappearing, its saddening but I suppose there is no other way. And maybe this more open world will not only unite those whom speak trough terror methods (as they seem to be doing) but will also open the minds of our average worker to other ideas. And yes I suppose this must come easier in India because you have more religions en cultures living next to each other. After the partition we were left with almost no industrial centers (most in the mainland of nowadays India) and no working government centerwe are going in the right direction just so damn slow Hope this helps, Regards Zeshan Mughal

skanwar18 on "India Vs Pakistan"

skanwar18 — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 21:36:51 +0000

I think i would give it to you, you are trying to put a very balanced view of Pakistan. What you say, might be true, i can't comment on it, as it is very difficult to analyse anything about Pakistan. Don't need to mistrust the Indian army, for it doesn't have any power, unless authorised by the Govt. of India, which is bound by more compulsions, like no other, being a mismash of more than 1 billion people's driver. With more than 15 political parties, forming part of the Indian Govt. it is virtually impossible, to get any line of action agreed upon. To be honest, i like Musharraf, from the point of view of what he is looking to achieve, but i only object to the way he has gone about it. What happens in Pakistan, certainly affects India, and visa versa. So, Pakistan's stability is important for not just Pakistan, but also the entire South Asia Region. Armed forces on the border, are for stopping al-queda kind of career terrorists, who aren't for anything worth while in the world. Everyone knows, its a fact, Pakistani's are the best hosts in the world. NO COMPETITION. But i would like to understand, from you via this forum, how would Pakistan sort out its current problems. No India, i can understand, USA is a compulsion, for most of the world, but CHINA? But Budhism, is actually 100% Indian. Here a link from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/religion/buddhism/ Infact, it is from the state of BIHAR, and the place where Gautam Budh got NIRVAN, is a place called GAYA, which is a dusty town in BIHAR. Most of my links were from a varied source of websites, news sites, forums, Indian as well as British and American journals. Cheers!

Zeshan on "India Vs Pakistan"

Zeshan — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:16:58 +0000

ok last try... Let me put it this way.. Some of the basic facts you mentioned regarding Pakistan are wrong. Even you can not even get those right then how do you expect me to take you serious? It would only take you a few minutes at google (and please don't depend on Pakistani or Indian sites for you knowledge, they are quiet "tainted") for you to understand where you went wrong... If even you (whom seems the more reasonable person here) can't/won't take the time the understand the complexity if his neighbor then I don't think our mutual problems will ever be resolved. I, and quite some Pakistani's back home, do understand our bigger neighbor and that things are not always what they seem. Maybe it is the fact that one needs to know the weakness of the opponent, and having a larger opponent means that you have to look very hard. But when I look at some of your reasoning it appears to me you do not comprehend the complexity of our situation. Unity is good but it will not keep India, America or china from finishing us off, military or economically. In this case we have to choose between 3 evils, and like I said before much of the pressure that we are facing would be relieved if India would not stage its armed forces on our mutual border.... Yet since you don't seems to grasp that the majority of Pakistan's problems start with India and it is forcing us to accept bad government and bad international deals the why are we still talking? Our democratic governments sold us out to the US when India applied pressure trough the US on us. So for us the only option then is a stronger but not democratic government whom will not budge when it comes to giving away peaces of Pakistan. Yet I understand that our request will always fall on deaf ears and the election rhetoric's are more important in India then a stable neighbor nation... And yes yes, I know I know, I'm blaming someone else again...yet what else can I do when I see the majority of our current problems starting with the size and aggressiveness of the Indian armed forces.... Ps. Buddhism was formed in a region east of china... Message was edited by: Zeshan Message was edited by: Zeshan

skanwar18 on "India Vs Pakistan"

skanwar18 — Mon, 06 Nov 2006 20:09:36 +0000

Zeshan, i was only looking to defend comments , made against my country, India. I haven't really express my opinion on this forum, but i have always substanciated my views from news links to all 3rd party/ neutral countries. It is for the disconcerning readers to make their own views on it. INDIA HAS NEVER ATTACKED ANY COUNTRY IN ITS ENTIRE 10,000 YEARS OF ITS EXISTANCE. It is only when you compare and pull down India, that i think, the record needs to be set straight. India is the home and creator of world's major religions, including hinduism, jainism, budhism and Sikhism. Home of Satyagreh and founder of Non-align movement and United Nations. Pioneer of asian unity, and founder of Asian Games and fore front contributer of peace keeping forces for United Nations peace keeping missions, world over. As for existance of terror camps in Pakistan. Well, here's the proof. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200602/s1578394.htm http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/24142 http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/aug/01terror.htm http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1044850 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8147895/site/newsweek/ Majority of proof, coming from Pakistan's closest friend USA. BUT LET ME CATEGORICALLY STATE THIS, people of Pakistan are INNOCENT. For they dont' control the dictators. Dictators, dont care about the ordianary pakistani. They only care about themselves. They spend upto 80% of the budget on buying weapons, in the face of , stirring up hatread against India. Cause it suits them. Indian movies are banned in Pakistan, there is NO SUCH BAN on Pakistani artists. Mirza Ghalib and Iqbal are national treasures on both sides of the continent. We have as many muslim leaders which were given cult status and respect, for their contribution towards independence. If you mean to be stingy with your wishes, well , thanks for that as well. We wish you well, and it is everyone's interest that peace prevails. Probably more so for India, for it is now finally talking off as a major economic power house. Pakistani's are in this mess, which is pretty much of their own doing. So, blaming anyone doesn't help. Everyone is using you, AGAIN AND AGAIN. So, wake up and realise, there is strength in UNITY. India has its own problems like everyone, but WE HAVE THE POWER TO SHAPE OUR DESTINY BY THE VIRTUE OF OUR DEMOCRACY. This is not to push Pakistan in the mud..........THAT'S YOUR PERCEPTION, CERTAINLY NOT MY INTENSION. I sincerely appologise if i have hurt any Pakistani, while i am expressing myself. I wish well for Pakistan, may God bless Pakistani's with the courage to thrown away dictators and have democracy , that is the power to change their own destiny. Pakistani's are misunderstood, and their self esteem crushed by their own despotic rulers, which hasn't changed anything for Pakistani's feaudal setup of the society. It is always the poor who pays the price on both sides of the border. Ruling elite in Pakistan ( Zero accountability) or corrupt Indian policitians. I am not sectarian, so i wouldn't reserve my Salaam to muslims only. Cause i am an INDIAN. God bless everyone. Cheers!

Zeshan on "India Vs Pakistan"

Zeshan — Mon, 06 Nov 2006 09:28:15 +0000

You know "skanwar18 " for once I hoped that at the other end of this discussion forum there would be a Indian home could think for himself and not start boasting about India and pushing Pakistan in the Mud. Anyway a last few comments for I don't think this discussion isn't resolving anything.. In the last 30 years the Indian gov has tried to motivate Hindu's to move to Kashmir to unbalance the voting groups. And no go look up the proof yourself, took me a few years to put all the peaces together. Its not 70 % that goes to the army, its 15% of the BNP.. The training camp were never proven, yet I don't doubt there there are certain element... This attitude of Indian on this forum (and of some of my fellow Pakistani's) sickens me. Yet no longer do I get angry from it, believe all you want and tell the world all you want. I am beyond caring what your population wants. The only thing Ill say is that we from Pakistan made the mistake of believing in the control over there "rebel groups" of our own making. yet once they are out the change beyond all recognition and and like a Pandora's box.Beware of what your politicians are doing In India right now, the poisoning of reason is a road few will return from. A war will solve nothing, you may defeat us with arms but in the end all will louse trough the M.A.D. principle.For I don't really hate Indian's but if your pour that army of yours down our trough I will agree that I we cant have our own country and live in peace then so too should India come to its end trough a nuclear solution. And no I will not great you, I will ignore you Indians for me you can rant as much as you want one day you will grow up and see that pushing your little neighbors and minorities come back to haunt you in the long run.. Salaam to all the Muslims in India, brothers and sisters we pray for you.

skanwar18 on "India Vs Pakistan"

skanwar18 — Sun, 05 Nov 2006 08:41:52 +0000

India is secular: no one can question that. Plight of minorities in Pakistan http://www.thepersecution.org/news/newsline1.html Rights enjoyed by muslims who migrated from India to Pakistan http://www.islamicvoice.com/november.2000/interview.htm Pakistan, a haven for muslims. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=69426 Pakistan's crowning glory... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4964934.stm http://www.balochvoice.com/Reports/Pakistan_Is_a_failed_State.htm http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=414 That's the treatment people get at the hands of their own govt.(Pakistan) http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_bangla.html http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM Pakistan, on another top ten list. This time Genocide! http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP8.HTM Now a word about State of Pakistani economy HEROINISATION OF THE PAK ECONOMY http://www.saag.org/notes/note87.html Eating out of American bowl Purely on economic merits, the IMF should not have sanctioned this credit because one of the IMF's past conditionalities, namely satisfactory conclusion of a new power tariff agreement with Hubco, has not yet been met by Islamabad. The fact that the IMF has sanctioned this credit despite this would underline the anxiety of the US and other Western countries not to let the Pakistani economy collapse, but to do no more than to keep it on drips. http://www.saag.org/papers2/paper167.htm Pakistani economy in dire straits.... http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2005-daily/29-07-2005/oped/o1.htm Pakistan on the edge http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-india_pakistan/musharraf_rule_3935.jsp Pakistan has made life for people who came over from India during partision, real HELL. They are still called MUHAJIR. Extra judicial killing as well as military burial. Justice, the pakistani way may be? http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370115 Sorry mate, i am forced to interpret Pakistan's internal affairs, since you are trying to compare two completly different things. Anyhow, we have courts in our country, and institutions in place, which deliver justice and uphold laws of the land. Unlike in Pakistan, where law is a misstress of the ruling dictator. Every military ruler, has almost invariably died an un natural death. All democratically elected priministers are either assassinated or are in exile. HAVE A DEMOCRACY, MAKE IT RUN, like we have for so many years, before you start critisizing it. Nothing is absolute. We have corrupt politicians, but we accept that, openly. I am no more pained and ashamed of what happened in Gujrat, than any one else in the world. These are BUT these are not the NORM in our country. Your understanding of outsourcing is clear from your interpretation of a small communication issue with the letter m in south india. Well , the world's largest software companies ORACLE & MICROSOFT, have got their LARGEST development centers in south india, in the cities of Hyderabad (muslim dominated, which might please you) and B'lore. It isn't just about CALL CENTERS. That again, INDIA is at the TOP of the table. Pakistan has just started, but dream on..... Success of Fortune 500 companies in India is for all to see. http://ibef.org/artdisplay.aspx?cat_id=84&art_id=6989 For you, you have just STARTED, after getting American aid ( people you blame for all that's bad in your country). When you are at level zero, the first few steps would seem, 7% or 10% growth. Have the level of industrilization, have some world class companies like TATA STEEL, TCS, WIPRO, INFOSYS, RANBAXY, INDIANOIL, STATE BANK OF INDIA, CIPLA, DR.REDDY's. which all have listed on NYSC AND MOST TECH COMPANIES HAVE NASDAQ listing. THIS IS WORLD CLASS. DODGY FIGURES FROM PAKISTANI ESTABLISHMENT IS SOMETHING , your next Govt. wouldn't trust. India and Indian's rule CRICKET, AND ALL ITS BROADCASTING RIGHTS. WE control 70% of all the revenue the game generates. Indian exports are not AGAIN, limited to software (which incidenly is the worlds sun rise industry) it is also world leader in PHARMA, Automobile spareparts, Biotechnology and Steel. Indian MNC's list is constantly growing, TATA STEEL, TCS, HEROHONDA (world's largest motorbike manufacturer), Zee Group, which owns Tetra pack, which is the largest producer of food packaging in the world. Reliance Group, which has the world's largest Green field petrolium refinery in Gujrat, are some of the examples. Not to mention, what Non Resident Indian's have achieved Mittal Steel, Cobra Beer and Caparia Group. to name a few. Future is bright for India, for it is India and China, who have for the last 4000 years controlled 33-50% of world trade, but for the 150 years of colonization. Cheers!

ubaidhassan on "India Vs Pakistan"

ubaidhassan — Sun, 05 Nov 2006 05:52:49 +0000

India is secular : Babri mosque and Golden Temple, Gujrat killing of muslims. Missionries burnt alive. Lower cast women raped for not touching a brahman's feet(religion within religion). India is not good for shuder hindus as well. Democracy : Tehalka.com where for few thousand $ ministers and generals were sold. A Pakistani politician can be bought but not at such a low price. Having more people in lok and raj saba does not make democracy good.Shiv sainiks attacked shops not with names written in english. Manmohan Singh meeting MPs of LTTE MPs responsible for terrorism in Srilanka. No plebisite as stated in UN Resolution on Kashmir. Supporting terrorsim not only in Balouchistan but also in Bangladesh, Nepal and Srilanka hence these neighbors approved South korea rep for security council but not indian. Transparency international rated most corrupt country in the world. 37% living below poverty line as compared to 17% in Pakistan. $125 billion foreign loan as compared to $32 billion. 8.8% unemployment as compared to 6% in Pakistan. India is relying on softwares to show economic stats which are depleting as outsourcing needs are reducing and cheaper resources can be found in Ukrine etc. Poor spoken english accent is pulling call center Projects from India to Pakistan as pronounciation of few english alphabets like 'M' is miserable by south indians. alot to come

skanwar18 on "India Vs Pakistan"

skanwar18 — Sat, 04 Nov 2006 11:25:16 +0000

With all due respect to almost ridicule your point of you, may i state that, most people who make tall claims, to obscure the truth, only make the truthfull more determined to come out in the open and let the truth prevail. Statement by Congressman Joe Wilson, Co-Chair Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans, before the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness and the House Committee on Government Reform May 12, 2004 http://www.usindiafriendship.net/congress1/wilson/wilson10.htm ( Since it is a statement before a Congressional Caucus, as recent as May 12, 2004, it MUST qualify for an indendent source, which MY IMAGINATION can't influence) More proof, about the Genocide, which captured the attension of the world media. http://www.factusa.org/PressRelease082205.pdf (Another USA web site, which is AGAIN, out of bounds of my imagination i guess) http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/KP%20IN%20LONDON.doc One of many news stories, from BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2885533.stm ( I don't think i need to tell you, if i can influence the santity and staunch impartial approach of this news broadcasting agency) This is how you welcome peace moves, in the right direction. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4415823.stm Some still have a head over their shoulders, when they talk like this.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061102/india_nm/india274690 Its home for everyone, irrespecive of their religion. Won't you agree. http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/99/1206/kashmir2.pandits.html And ultimately, Pakistan's Military govt's contribution towards resolving it peacefully. http://kashmirherald.com/october2001/pakrole-mediareports.html Basic facts about what's going on, in the valley.... Some Vital Statistics and Facts on the Pakistani Terrorist Machinery Aimed at Kashmir Number of Terrorist Camps in Pakistan: 37 Number of Terrorist Camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir: 49 Number of Pakistani-run Terrorist Camps in Afghanistan: 22 Total Number of Hardcore Terrorists Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: 2300 Total Number of Foreign Mercenaries Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: 900 Number of Pakistani terrorists killed by Indian security forces: 291 Number of Pakistani terrorists in Indian jails: 125 Number of Indian civilians killed by Pakistani terrorists: over 29,000 Number of firearms recovered from Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 47,000 Amount of explosives recovered from Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 60 tons (30,000 kg) Number of explosions carried out by Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 4,730 Nationalities of Foreign Mercenaries Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: Pakistan, Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Afghanistan, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq Deadliest Pakistani Terrorist Groups Active in Jammu and Kashmir: Harkat-ul-Ansar (recently renamed Harkat-ul-Mujaheedin) Headquarters: Muzaffarabad (Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir) Lashkar-e-Toiba Headquarters: Muridke (Pakistan) Hizbul Mujahideen Peak time of annual infiltration of terrorists into India: Summer months, when the snows have melted, under cover of Pakistani Army firing (Washington Post, Oct. 15, 1998). Number of people in Jammu and Kashmir killed in violence waged by Pakistan-supported terrorists over the last decade: over 20,000. Ethnic Cleansing in Kashmir: Nearly 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits (original Hindu inhabitants of Kashmir valley) driven out of their ancestral homeland by Pakistan-supported terrorists. Pakistan's response to charges of terrorism support: "It only provides diplomatic and moral support to the terrorists". To see through this outright lie, read about the "credible reports of official Pakistani support to Kashmiri terrorist groups..." in the US State Department 1997 report on global terrorism. The US Tomahawk missiles killed Pakistani terrorists belonging to Harkat-ul-Ansar in the Khost camps in Afghanistan this year. These terrorists were training to fight in Kashmir. The Harkat-ul-Ansar and the Lashkar-e-Toiba threatened US citizens recently in open news conferences in major cities in Pakistan (Kashmir Chronicle, Vol. 1, No. 6). The Pakistani government makes no attempt to shut down any of these groups. Most recent recruits to Pakistani terrorist camps: Kashmiri Muslim children as young as 12 years old, coerced into a dead-end career by Pakistani terrorist groups(CNN Online, Oct. 8, 1998). Why is the Pakistani economy in shambles? 70% of its budget goes to the military plus its debt payments, much of the military spending being on sustaining the Kashmiri terror (NY Times, Aug. 30, 1998, The Tribune, Oct. 10, 1998). EXTENT TO WHICH PEOPLE WOULD GO TO IGNORE A FACT, doesn't MEAN THEY CAN DENY THE PAST, CHANGE THE PRESENT OR EVEN INFLUENCE THE FUTURE. It is more complicated that ITS ALL YOUR FAULT . its Jammun & Kashmir, which includes Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. So, its not just about muslim majority. Even if you talk about justice to Kashmiri muslims, how can they expect any sympathy from the outside world, if this is how they treat their own neighbours? NO WESTER POWER HAS DARED TO INTERFERE IN THE KASHMIR MATTER. Think for yourself? TRUTH IS OUT THERE. Cheers.

jyang on "India Vs Pakistan"

jyang — Sat, 04 Nov 2006 03:25:24 +0000

skanwar18 , You seem pretty misinformed and living in an imaginary world. Its great that you believe India is the best place in the world, you are very patriotic. I admire that in you. However many of your comments are incorrect. "All hindu's from Kashmir have been thrown out of their houses, by their muslim neighbours." What is the evidence of this lie? Possibly Hindus have been thrown out, but all Hindus? Pretty far fetched exageration. Bring your evidence. And please enlighten yourself with a bit of history on Kashmir. Here is a nice short overview at BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/quick_guides/04/south_asia_kashmir_dispute/html/1.stm India promised the UN that it would hold plebecite to decide the fate of Kasmir. Yet after decades we see no sign of this happening. India has so many thousands of soldiers in Kashmir today, it really is an occupied state. If India is really the greatest democracy, then why do they not allow the plebecite as they had promised. When people are denied their voice to be heard, then they can only resort to violence. Your country should stop the opression. The whole thing was based on a great injustice. At 1947, Muslim majority states went to Pakistan. Raja of India refused to let go of his state. What kind of democracy is that? Then he was attacked by tribal people who wanted to free the kasmiris from the Raja. And Raja ceded to India to keep his seat. Is this the democracy that you so cherish? Where the will of the people is quashed! How shameful...

skanwar18 on "India Vs Pakistan"

skanwar18 — Thu, 02 Nov 2006 22:46:18 +0000

Hi Zeshan, Well, you have changed remarkably since your first response. See i am not trying to compete with anyone here, in putting my comments across, all i wanted to do , rather tried to do, was to put focus back on discussing democracy, which is what this forum is all about. A small caveat, if one chooses to look for contradictions in my posts, cause one can try to compare two un related entities, would only get confused and deviate one from the point i am trying to make. Contradictions would always crop up, if seen or explicitly implied or compared one on one. Every institution that ever existed in USSR died, its won slow and permanent death. Anything worthwhile takes decades, if not centuries, to settle down as a system, and mature, as an INSTITUTION. I am refering to INSTITITUTIONS here. Not an isolated case of excellent, which can happen any where even small banana republics of today once in their hay days, gave their share of contribution to the world, but i tend to refer to institutional contributions that have endured across decades and or centuries. Democracy is such an institution that fosters most of the traits of a just, prosperous and civil societies, which gives rise to such nations and generations of continued innovators. Yes, USSR had its share of innvations, but at the institution level, their so called revolution was bankrupt since its inception. That's why it fell apart like a pack of cards. Most inventors of the brilliance that we see, coming from USSR , never EVER got a dime for their inventions. They starved their population to put up a farce, which was done in the name of trying to show USA down. We all know where they stand now. Stalin, who took control of the revolution, very early on was much more barbaric to his own people, than even Hitler was to his own people. Now, this again doesn't mean, other countries, which are not democracies, are doomed for oblivion. Certainly not. so, it is easy, to spot and highlight a contradiction. Cause you are not looking at what i am trying to show you. India has never once attacked any nation in its entire 10,000 years of history. But if attacked, yes, we do take every effort to defent ourselves. India has a long list of Muslim soldiers, who have got the highest militry honour of its defence. We take anyone attacking our country and our institutions as an attack on our mother i.e motherland. And there isn't anything wrong about it. Every country does it. India had almost reached Lahore in the war of 1965, but retreated back to its border, since it was never interested in war. In 1971 war, where East Pakistan, was completely overtanken by India, was again given back to the Bengali's, to rule their own motherland. Pakistani govt.'s that have attacked India, inspite of the hopeless odds against themselves, have been military govt.'s. The only peace accord, which is the Shimla Agreement signed between the two countries, was signed by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who was killed for trying to sort peace between the two south asian greats. India does at times, behave like a bully, but never plays like an aggressor. There are more similarities between India and Pakistan than probably any two neighbouring countries in the world. Goodwill at the people's level is also , next to none. But its lack of peoples power, i.e. Democracy, that is stopping Pakistan achieving its right to glory. I fully appreciate challenges that beseige Pakistan, but i think, the answer starts with DEMOCRACY. Western democracy has been adopted in the Turkish context and i really appreciate the right they would enjoy by adopting a western concept. A turkish muslim isn't any lesser muslim than a pakistani muslim. It takes a DEMOCRACY to criticise even the prime minister of the country. People can discuss and read about it and discuss police brutality of India police, because the police in our country is governed by a democratically elected govt. He has got a fair trial, and even the killers of Indira Gandhi got a fair trial, which lasted for about 9 years. Current mumbai blasts, which has now become the world's longest running case , running for more than 13 years, to make sure, their is no miscarriage of justice. I would rather put the onus of someone caught red handed, trying to kill , elected parliamentarians, and not TYPECAST the entire JUDICIAL SYSTEM of India. And the santity of our Democracy. Trying to trump India is futile. Its a waste of resources, for India, and certainly for Pakistan. But, India has other motives, rather than JUST dominating Pakistan. Its a country of a billion people, who are trying to assert themselves, on the GLOBAL forum. We want, and desperately NEED peace with Pakistan. Pakistan, should try to cultivate these institutions like world class universities, law abiding societies, stock market, world class banking, internationally competitive services industries. And the catalyst for all this starts with DEMOCRACY. Nijam Seth, if i get the name correctly, was put into jail, for speaking his mind, against the govt. Something millions of journalists do and take their freedom for granted , every day of their lives. Many dreated gangsters have been left off, from mumbai blasts case 1993, because there wasn't sufficient evidence against them. India again, is the ONLY COUNTRY in the world, which subsidises HAJ for its muslim nationals. Ask an Indian muslim, if he would like to go and live any other place in the world, chances are , he would say, i am not going any where. Your insecurity is completed founded in part reality but also part fiction. All hindu's from Kashmir have been thrown out of their houses, by their muslim neighbours. They have been slaughtered in their own homes, but obviously, that never gets raised. As for your background, being half pakistani , half dutch, well, i was not even trying to attempt that. Cheers!

Zeshan on "India Vs Pakistan"

Zeshan — Thu, 02 Nov 2006 11:23:10 +0000

Aaah truly he is coming out of his shell...Good good, now lets stay on this course and see... Because there are some contradictions in your previous statement... But lets leveling the field and get some things straight, yes I by definition (actually only 50%) a Pakistani, yet grew up in a country that has the oldest democratic (some would say the first capitalistic) system in the world. So much for me being :"You live in constant fear, that's why you debate with all your vigor about Democracy, which you have NEVER experienced.". And as a little backgroup info, the country where I spent most of my time in has managed to keep out of most the regional wars and has no international territory disputes. Except for some import-export tariffs with the US, but if the past is any indication we'll get what we want. Second: "You lost ALL wars with India, including Kargil. Didn't even bother to claim its own soldiers, which is shameful." Let me remind you the people whom went to reclaim the bodies were shot at..but lets not sidetrack. "But i must appreciate, your point of view, full of pointless vendetta against a more powerful and might neighbor." Yes, we did loose all the wars with India; did you ever compare India's military budget and standing armed forces with that of Pakistan? Its like saying well you have 1 for every 5 men of ours, but we still consider it a fair fight. Yeah sure you do..... Third: "Giving justice to someone who willingly went to blow up our democratic institution, doesn't really deserve clemency, but we can debate, in our country, you obviously have no law and order, living under the shadow of a dictator, who has NO ACCOUNTABILITY." I'll grant you that, yet the police was found corrupt and admitted that they got the wrong guy and tortured him into a confession, the supreme court acknowledged it yet he still gets the sentence...talk about it as much as you want. Great results! Now as for the ever consistent problem of dictators....In my view the problem is a bit more complex.. Coming for that old democratic country...My view on democracy is that when the population of a country feels responsible for her own neighborhood-actions of her leaders and agrees that all her inhabitants are equal.. Only then can you have a democracy, this however requires the growth of the social conscience of the population and will not be achieved in a short period of time. Having said this, I dont think that Pakistan is ready for a western style democracy, why? Well there is no safety net that -the very well to do- will abuse the system due to lack of (the above mentioned) a safety net and a fair justice system. Then having several (perceived) nation threatening threads does not help either. And with no control over the foreign bank accounts of our politicians or direct monetary control of our political parties the chances of a foreign power directly interfering in our political system is quite, lets say, big??!! If Pakistan was not at the crossroad of several interests so too would their be less interest and a more even growth of the public conscious be achieved. Yet when Butto was murdered and a dictator came to power, and I see no difference between him and the current one, the process of starting a very basic democracy was and is halted. All in all, our system needs a lot of time for it to be working in a -fair for all- way. And then the problem of fanatics amongst our Muslim population, yes there is active sponsoring for fundamental organizations, their voices are silencing the more moderate ones that actually were helping us understand the Muslim (no Im not a Muslim) believe in a positive way. But when I look at the root of this new problem I see foreign (middle east mostly) people spending money to influence our "less educated" part of the populations with promises of a better life if only they take up arms. Looking at all the internal problems in Pakistan I can only see one beginning, a better government. Yet this dream (that Pakistanis have) seems a almost impossible one due to all the opposing forces, we can not fight all the foreign powers-groups in our country, we just don't have the resources. For as long more rich nations keep interfering in our national policies we can hardly stop them. Consider that Butto one of our more powerful leaders was killed for it, so what chances do you give us?? try we will, realistic we are too that it will be a long and very difficult road. So you see, we do understand the nature of our internal (and by that also our foreign policies) problems. We discuss it, yet our voices are muffled. Because as long as we have a neighbor who won all war against us putting its armed formed at our borders at every election. And we "perceived" a slaughter of muslims in India (gunjarat, the province not the city) then how can we feel secure? Putting that together what the influx of Afghani refugees starting from the Afgan-ussr war (somewhat the same as the exodus of people from Bangladesh (yes a black book in our history as what we did to those people) to India and the Balochi rebelling that apparently is being supported by our western neighbor. Our starting situation was not as positive as the Indian; due to lack of abele administrator (whom stayed in India mostly) so yes we have a back lock and need to clear it. So what would help, and be in the interest of India too, if the military budget of the Pakistani army would be lessened and can only be done if the Indian armed forced would not park their troops 150 km from our major cities at every 3 to 4 year intervals, it really really would help and give us some breathing space. So anyway, regards from the "belittling, hard hitting, kiddish, mean minded, back stabbing, Can't live without Indian culture, jealous, MIOPIC VISION neighbor that is lived under a despotic dictatorship. And me being a Pakistani I just can help but laugh from this last comment: "I haven't seen any innovation from any nation that is based on anything but democracy and is secular." Do you agree that the USSR was not a democracy, comprende?? And look forward to you next comment considering they seem to be getting better.. Ps. that the extreminst are now in pakistan is due to(in my oppinion) the western armies and their lack in succes in destroying them and instead droving them away to the next country.

skanwar18 on "India Vs Pakistan"

skanwar18 — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 22:29:12 +0000

Well Zeshan, Thanks for your immature comments, much to my expectations. Bringing the quality of the discussion down. I gave Credit to Pakistan, where it deserved. You obviously, only wanted to put negative points under the microscope, which applied to India. your assumptions about India doing the same, as what Pakistan is doing is Precisely what is wrong with Pakistan. You live in constant fear, that's why you debate with all your vigor about Democracy, which you have NEVER experienced. I am happy being a SANE 5 year old, and by the way, belittling someone with these hard hitting , kiddish statements, suits only a mean minded person. You can't live without money from the Americans. And you still back stab them by supporting world's most oppresive regime TALIBAN. That's Pakistan's contribution to the development of the international community. As a responsible member of the nuclear group, your scientist has prospered at the expense of international ridicule and embarassment of Pakistani nation, by running the largest of nuclear black market, no surprise, since , that's how it was built in the first place. And how that scientist, is being treated, is also a known secret. He was used, but both are back stabbing each other, which is a trait of typical Pakistani politics. BACK STAB TO GAIN STATURE. All terrorists have a safe haven in Pakistan, again, the best example of how to be a model neighbour. Can't live without Indian movies, Indian music or Indian fashion, most Pakistani's like to call themselves as British Asian, since when they say Pakistani, they are not welcome in Britain. Giving justice to someone who willingly went to blow up our democratic institution, doesn't really deserve clemency, but we can debate, in our country, you obviously have no law and order, living under the shadow of a dictator, who has NO ACCOUNTABILITY. You lost ALL wars with India, including Kargil. Didn't even bother to claim its own soldiers, which is shameful. Its ex prime minister was HANGED FOR A FLIMSY reason. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, was HANGED for next to nothing proven against him. I can understand your jealousy. But i must appreciate, your point of view, full of pointless vindenta against a more powerfull and might neighbour. Your comments about ...uneducated peasant, well, in my country we respect them as well. Which doesn' appear to be the case with you. Richest person in India is a muslim, so is our President, and they are proud of it. ....if the situation would have been reversed .... isn't correct english mate! May be you got carried away trying to respond to a balanced view. Indian's DON'T need to prove, as the WORLD BELIEVES THEM. Pakistani's well, you just who how they are treated. Calling me 5 year old, uneducated peasant, using cracked verson of word....Actually you are very good with the insults. I give in. I am completely incompetent to compete with you , when you have stooped to such a low well of human behaviour. WE CAN DISCUSS, WE ARE A DEMOCRACY. SORRY MATE YOU WONT UNDERSTAND THAT. YOU HAVE PROOVED EVERYONE , YOU HAVE A MIOPIC VISION. One exception can't mean, the entire institution is useless, which is again, your lack of understand, what a democracy is. I haven't seen any innovation from any nation that is based on anything but democracy and is secular. I won't even touch about internal matters of Pakistan. Pakistan is home to world's top 10 most wanted list of terrorists, that's why we have a REASON to point a finger at Pakistan. I gave due credit to PAKISTAN. as a young nation etc. you only implied that you are a lesser nation. This comes from your own low self esteem. NOT SOMETHING I SAID. YOU IMPLIED IT ON YOUR OWN. INDIA can't be compared to PAKISTAN or visa versa, on this forum, since Pakistan is a despotic dictatorship, which kills its own eleced leaders, oppresses its own people with out any trial, changes law to suit itself. Easy to point exceptions against Indian democracy, but its an unparalleled feat in the history of mankind, when 1 billion people vote for a parliament, never before has this ever been done. Cracked version of word, well i won't even go down to such petty level to talk on this forum. don't need to show me, how its done. I dont need to do that. thanks. God bless you with some maturity. Cheers!

India Vs Pakistan,

murli_hyd — Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:00:00 +0100

Basically India and Pakistan can never be compared though the fringe elements in India are attempting to make India another Pakistan. In our criticism of those fringe elements, one should not lose sight of the fact, in spite of these fringe elements India remains secular and democratic and a few light years ahead of Pakistan in almost all fields except theocracy. India should not fight to become one like Pakistan as it would take us on a slide in the evolution scale. We should look forward. Look at the democray in India. One can deny God, religion without the Government coming to punish you. I am talking about the choices that are there in a civilized country. To differ and still not fear for life and their family. Read the rest of this post...