open Democracy News Analysis - Let's talk about a solution..., - Comments

a.ata on "Let's talk about a solution..."

a.ata — Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:56:13 +0100

Palestinian Christians: persecuted, tormented, abandoned and alone:- The Palestinian Christian is an endangered species. When the modern state of Israel was established there were about 400000 of us. Two years ago the number was down to 80000. Now it’s down to 60000. At that rate, in a few years there will be none of us left. Palestinian Christians within Israel fare little better. On the face of it, their number has grown by 20000 since 1991. But this is misleading, for the census classification ‘Christian’ includes some 20000 recent non-Arab migrants from the former Soviet Union. So why are Palestinian Christians abandoning their homeland? We have lost hope, that’s why. We are treated as non-people. Few outside the Middle East even know we exist, and those who do, conveniently forget. I refer, of course, to the American Religious Right. They see the modern Israel as a harbinger of the Second Coming, at which time Christians will go to Paradise, and all others (presumably including Jews) to Hell. To this end they lend military and moral support to Israel. Even by the double-dealing standards of international diplomacy this is a breathtakingly cynical bargain. It is hard to know who is using whom more: the Christian Right for offering secular power in the expectation that the Jewish state will be destroyed by a greater spiritual one; or the Israeli Right for accepting their offer. What we do know is that both sides are abusing the Palestinians. Apparently we don’t enter into anyone’s calculations. The views of the Israeli Right are well known: they want us gone. Less well known are the views of the American Religious Right. Strangely, they find the liberation Iraqis from a vile dictator just, but do not find it unjust for us to be under military occupation for 38 long years. Said Senator James Inhofe (R-Oklahoma): ‘God Appeared to Abraham and said: “I am giving you this land,”the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the word of God is true.’ House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-Texas) was even more forthright: ’I'm content to have Israel grab the entire West Bank… I happen to believe that the Palestinians should leave.’ There is a phrase for this. Ethnic cleansing. So why do American Christians stand by while their leaders advocate the expulsion of fellow Christians? Could it be that they do not know that the Holy Land has been a home to Christians since, well… since Christ? Do not think I am asking for special treatment for Christians. Ethnic cleansing is evil whoever does it and to whomever it is done. Palestinian Christians: Anglican, Maronite Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Armenians, Baptists, Copts and Assyrians have been rubbing shoulders with each other and with other religions: Muslims, Jews, Druze and (most recently) Baha’is for centuries. We want to do so for centuries more. But we can’t if we are driven out by despair. What we seek is support: material, moral, political and spiritual. As Palestinians we grieve for what we have lost, and few people (the Ashkenazi Jews are one) have lost more than us. But grief can be assuaged by the fellowship of friends. (Signed Prof. Abe W. Ata is a 9th generation Christian Palestinian academic born in Bethlehem.

eric_5 on "Let's talk about a solution..."

eric_5 — Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:06:33 +0100

They don't have guards in the camps on a 24-hour basis. They don't have any of the other accoutrements of a German concentration camp, or a British one for that matter. They only go into the camps in heavily-armed convoys.That's ghetto, not concentration camp! Capfka You've put your finger on the weak point of the analogy with the concentration camp. The Israelis do not administer the internal routine of the Palestinian areas. I'm not sure that your analogy with the ghetto is more complete, however. I would have thought of Israel as being more of a ghetto. In any case, the essential point is that the Palestinians are imprisoned. This means that negotiations, or any relations, between the two groups are not comparable to those between two equal and sovereign bodies but between prisoners and their jailers. In order to produce a political solution, based on peace and justice, a third party would be required to maintain equality. The third party would have to be able to neutralize Israel's nuclear-armed military. This can only be done by the United States or with the permission of the United States. There is no such prospect in current circumstances.

Capfka on "Let's talk about a solution..."

Capfka — Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:28:23 +0100

Doesn't matter what you call the Left Bank or Gaza, they are effectively part of Israel. However you want to define the political/adminstrative borders within the country there are still no concentration camps - either death camps like Auschwitz, political camps like Dachau or even ones in the original sense that the Brits (bless their inventive little cotton socks) set up in South Africa during the Boer War. What they have are areas of town or city surrounded by guards, either full time or on an ad hoc basis. The Israelis control comings and goings. They control the utilities. They control the resources. And now they are copying the Warsaw model and setting up fences. They don't have guards in the camps on a 24-hour basis. They don't have any of the other accoutrements of a German concentration camp, or a British one for that matter. They only go into the camps in heavily-armed convoys. That's ghetto, not concentration camp! You know what they say about people who have been abused abusing others.

eric_5 on "Let's talk about a solution..."

eric_5 — Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:15:20 +0100

There are no concentration camps (that I've heard of) in Israel. There are, however, ghettos. These and their possibilities are well understood in Israel, for obvious reasons. And believe me, I'm not self-delusional ...Capfka Nobody is saying there are concentration camps in Israel. The claim is that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are imprisoned in areas which are like concentration camps and are nothing like a basis for a sovereign, independent state.

Capfka on "Let's talk about a solution..."

Capfka — Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:30:13 +0100

sicat222 on "Let's talk about a solution..."

sicat222 — Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:18:59 +0100

> > Michael, > You admit all the facts. You simply claim that it is > justifiable to enclose the Palestinians of Gaza > behind a fence, patrol the perimeter roads, shut the > Palestinians off from the sea, destroy the airport > and have death squads and surveillance craft control > the skies. True is the saying: "People see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear." You twist all the facts in an attempt to make them fit your own vision of the conflict, a very one-sided vision at best. All right, let's say, Israel ceases to exist,(which won't happen in reality, but only in your own mind), and the entire territory becomes Palestinian. How do you propose this state to function with the kind of leadership and lack of economy that it has? Please do try to stay away from conspiracy theories and try to come up with a legitimate solution. Irina Tsukerman

eric_5 on "Let's talk about a solution..."

eric_5 — Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:48:41 +0100

... I guess for the self-delusional, anything is possible.mbrenner Michael, You admit all the facts. You simply claim that it is justifiable to enclose the Palestinians of Gaza behind a fence, patrol the perimeter roads, shut the Palestinians off from the sea, destroy the airport and have death squads and surveillance craft control the skies.

mbrenner on "Let's talk about a solution..."

mbrenner — Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:35:50 +0100

> There are no concentration camps in the > territories. To continue using this phrase is an > outrage that the moderator should comment upon. > mbrenner > > As I understand it, Gaza is enclosed by a fence on > land. A fence that was built only after close to half-a-century of Gazan Arabs attacking innocent Israeli civilians and a fence that protects Israeli citizens. Around this fence are roads, patrolled by > Israeli goons (or fine young citizens, as might be > claimed). Road that were constructed, again, to protect Israeli civilians from terrorists trying to kill them. They are not always successful, as we saw with the barbaric attack in which a Palestinian terrorist shot a mother and four of her children at point blank range. The sea approaches are under Israeli > control. As is their right under Oslo, and as is necessary, since the Palestinians would otherwise use the sea approachs to smuggle weapons in Gaza to be used against Israeli civilians. Gaza airport has been destroyed by the > Israelis. They tore up a couple of runways as a punishment to Arafat for going abroad to raise money for his Swiss bank account. Since it was built by funds from the > European Union, this is another item on the mounting > sum owed by Israel to the European taxpayer. I'd say the idea that Israel owes the European taxpayer money for destroying something that was a threat to them is crazy. The > skies above Gaza are roamed by Israeli death squads > and surveillance craft. The Lebanese skies are roamed by Syrians, even though they face no threat from the Lebanese. I don't see you criticizing this tactic. Gaza qualifies as a > concentration camp in these respects. It clearly doesn't, but I guess for the self-delusional, anything is possible.

eric_5 on "Let's talk about a solution..."

eric_5 — Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:04:41 +0100

There are no concentration camps in the territories. To continue using this phrase is an outrage that the moderator should comment upon. mbrenner As I understand it, Gaza is enclosed by a fence on land. Around this fence are roads, patrolled by Israeli goons (or fine young citizens, as might be claimed). The sea approaches are under Israeli control. Gaza airport has been destroyed by the Israelis. Since it was built by funds from the European Union, this is another item on the mounting sum owed by Israel to the European taxpayer. The skies above Gaza are roamed by Israeli death squads and surveillance craft. Gaza qualifies as a concentration camp in these respects.

mbrenner on "Let's talk about a solution..."

mbrenner — Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:58:11 +0100

> For ten years, there were Labor governments who > negotiated with the Palestinians. mbrenner > > With the results we see. That is the fault of the Palestinians, principally Yasir Arafat, who did not take the advice of many of his own negotiators, the Jordanians, and the Egyptians. > You even suggest,like all the fearmongers, that > what comes after Sharon will be worse, even though, > as usual, there is absolutely nothing to back that > opinion. > > The Sharon Plan of confining the Palestinians of the > Occupied Territories to concentration camps has the > potential for disaster. There are no concentration camps in the territories. To continue using this phrase is an outrage that the moderator should comment upon. > One reality is that the Jewish people exist and > have a right to a state of their own and currently do > have such a state and are not going to give it > up. mbrenner > > The results of this opinion are, indeed, all too > real. This is not an opinion. This is the reality, the correct one, which you, in contradiction of world opinion, refuse to face. You would deny only the Jews a state. What is see is the result of the fascist ideology that the entire Middle East must only be under Arab sovereignty, and no one else's. > Every country in the world is a member of the UN, > from the US to the hellholes like Sudan and > Syria. mbrenner > > But you haven't given a credible reason why, in view > of your vilification of the UN, you don't think > Israel should resign. > You haven't given a credible reason for why this discussion is worth having. It is a red herring. > As I have said before, Israel's presence > strengthens the moral quality of the UN > considerably.mbrenner > > This moral quality which has recently been > illustrated by the murder of Palestinians designated > as terrorists and of others in the vicinity, the > illegal building of the Barrier in Occupied > Territory, the demolition of Palestinian homes and > the atrocities in Rafah? This is not the morality > which the world community professes. The question > therefore arises if those proclaiming such an > eccentric morality belong in the UN. I guess the world community professes the morality of Arab Sudanese slavedrivers, Saddamite dictators, and assorted antisemites instead. Eccentric morality indeed. Gimme a break. Start discussing real solutions, or leave. You've managed to alienate just about everybody else by your irredentist ideology, bad will nitpicking, and annoying red herrings, the latest being a totally meaningless discussion about whether Israel should withdraw from the UN. Give a constructive solution that takes into account the wills of the people on the grounds (not just what YOU want for them or just what the Palestinian Arabs want). Otherwise, I don't see a reason to waste more time here. David's tried, I've tried, others have tried. You have tunnel vision.

eric_5 on "Let's talk about a solution..."

eric_5 — Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:23:08 +0100

For ten years, there were Labor governments who negotiated with the Palestinians. mbrenner With the results we see. You even suggest,like all the fearmongers, that what comes after Sharon will be worse, even though, as usual, there is absolutely nothing to back that opinion. The Sharon Plan of confining the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories to concentration camps has the potential for disaster. One reality is that the Jewish people exist and have a right to a state of their own and currently do have such a state and are not going to give it up. mbrenner The results of this opinion are, indeed, all too real. Every country in the world is a member of the UN, from the US to the hellholes like Sudan and Syria. mbrenner But you haven't given a credible reason why, in view of your vilification of the UN, you don't think Israel should resign. As I have said before, Israel's presence strengthens the moral quality of the UN considerably.mbrenner This moral quality which has recently been illustrated by the murder of Palestinians designated as terrorists and of others in the vicinity, the illegal building of the Barrier in Occupied Territory, the demolition of Palestinian homes and the atrocities in Rafah? This is not the morality which the world community professes. The question therefore arises if those proclaiming such an eccentric morality belong in the UN.

mbrenner on "Let's talk about a solution..."

mbrenner — Sun, 06 Jun 2004 18:14:41 +0100

> The 'solution' is the Sharon plan of murder, the > building of barriers and the redeployment of > settlers. After the disappearance of Sharon, an > element may arise which favours another path, > possibly with still worse consequences for > Palestinians and not necessarily beneficial to the > Israelis. > Because you do nothing but demonize Sharon and Israel, you cannot see past your own ideology. For ten years, there were Labor governments who negotiated with the Palestinians. You even suggest, like all the fearmongers, that what comes after Sharon will be worse, even though, as usual, there is absolutely nothing to back that opinion. > There has to be some regard for reality in discussing > 'solutions'. I agree. One reality is that the Jewish people exist and have a right to a state of their own and currently do have such a state and are not going to give it up. When are you going to start engaging reality? In the meantime, there are many points > of detail, even questions like Israel's membership of > the UN which tell us something about the UN, even if > their relationship to the conflict may be peripheral. What exactly is that? Every country in the world is a member of the UN, from the US to the hellholes like Sudan and Syria. As I have said before, Israel's presence strengthens the moral quality of the UN considerably.

eric_5 on "Let's talk about a solution..."

eric_5 — Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:01:24 +0100

Ok, let's not talk about a solution. Goodbye people, you've disappointed me (again), but hardly surprised me.David Wood The 'solution' is the Sharon plan of murder, the building of barriers and the redeployment of settlers. After the disappearance of Sharon, an element may arise which favours another path, possibly with still worse consequences for Palestinians and not necessarily beneficial to the Israelis. There has to be some regard for reality in discussing 'solutions'. In the meantime, there are many points of detail, even questions like Israel's membership of the UN which tell us something about the UN, even if their relationship to the conflict may be peripheral.

David Wood on "Let's talk about a solution..."

David Wood — Fri, 04 Jun 2004 09:17:39 +0100

Ok, let's not talk about a solution. Goodbye people, you've disappointed me (again), but hardly surprised me.

mbrenner on "Let's talk about a solution..."

mbrenner — Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:45:54 +0100

> We could, should and must hit these swine right where > it hurts: by stopping what they suck out of us every > year, i.e. the 5 Billion dollars of our tax payers > cash. > That's right: we give it to Zionism, so they can > steal Palestinian land by military force; it gives > no benefit to the ordinary citizen but only the > select few, the Zionist mafia and friends.They feed > off their publics politically induced fear and > paranoia. > Maybe it's the Palestinians who need our help and > just maybe, "then", we would have some real friends > in the Middle East. Here, Ladies and Gentlemen, is Lawson's solution. It's a real ice breaker, really showing Lawson's appreciation of the humanity of the other side. Hooray for Lawson. Message was edited by: mbrenner

Let's talk about a solution...,

David Wood — Sat, 29 May 2004 13:11:43 +0100

This whole Debate is becoming increasingly less useful and lacks much in the way of postitive solutions instead constantly repeating the same lines. Arguing for the explusion of Israel from the UN will not help the Palestinians or the Israelis much, although it might please some anti-Israelis outside Israel and Palestine. Perhaps a more radical approach is needed. How about a withdrawl of all foreign aid (except emergency food and medicines) from both Israel and Palestine until all violence and forced reterritorialisation stops and a solution is reached by the representatives of both parties through intensive negotitation with independent mediators? Read the rest of this post...