open Democracy News Analysis - Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!, - Comments

Ttrryosborn on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Ttrryosborn — Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:06:56 +0100

henry hart, brolly a suicide bomber? Hhhhmmmmmm. No. I'd miss brolly's follies.

henry_hart_1 on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

henry_hart_1 — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:42:10 +0100

Take a breath, there, bumbler -- I'm worried you might have an embolism. Why did the U.S. attack Iraq? For fun, my fuddled friend. We had all these weapons and troops sitting around, unused, and, well, nothing better to do. Also, you have to admit it was great for getting old goats such as yourself all riled up. Really, Brolly, your love affair with terrorists, insurgents, communists and anyone else with an AK-47 and a grudge against the U.S. grows unseemly. Perhaps you should start up a London cell of al Queda. Considering all the reverses they've suffered, I'm sure they'd welcome the overture. And then you could serve Nutella to the nutters and bask in their radiance. It's what you want ... admit it. HH

brolly3 on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

brolly3 — Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:27:15 +0100

henry-hart said; ["It was a mistake for terrorists to take arms against and attack the U.S. and others around the world."] The terrorists who attacked the US on 9/11 were not Iraqis, so why did the US attack Iraq? Henry's logic, as usual, leaves a lot to he desired. oh, and where are the WMD to be found in Iraq? The answer is and was NOWHERE since the early 1990's. The ridiculously named 'war on terror' has been the cover for the US getting into Iraq. The Muslim fundamentalist extremists were never a problem in Iraq until the US arrived. Al Qaeda or fundamentalist cells could always have been better dealt with by co-operation of intelligence services and police work throughout the world . Bush's pre-emptive invasion upset a lot of people in a lot of countries and this identifiable US aggression put the dampers on co-operation for many. henry-hart never tires of the same old refrain about the 'casualties of war' being a tragedy but never asks himself whether some of the wars since the end of WW2 were worth engaging in. He can only assert that there was some gain without ever proving it. It never dawns upon him that many of these have economic causes that lead to political actions or are the result of terrible misjudgements of politicians who then mislead the public to cover their backs. He is the stuff of which militarists are made of. Always crying crocodile tears for the 'necessary' carnage and suffering but never criticising the US for going down the paths laid out by the military-industrial complex and the politicians that are their mouthpieces in Wahington. He concedes small wrongs by the US military and insists that they are being investigated. What should be investigated is the whole Iraqi venture and the people at the top, who are responsible not the poor saps at the bottom of the pile or a few Major's thrown in for good measure.

erinleonard2 on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

erinleonard2 — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:00:46 +0100

I think Paul Roger’s June 2nd column, “Bush’s credibility gulf” nails what the real problem and point is here. It’s interesting in the microcosm of this thread, that “gulf” may as well include a trip to the moon. Here on Friday, a young woman living in Germany, has read something that has already been published in a German magazine regarding actual admitted cases of Quran abuse. Americans, who really only know this story as spun by the White House’s “Shame on Newsweek” look at the bloodshed and violence caused by mere mention of mistreatment of a holy book, which we would never ever think of doing… "Disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States. We honor the sacred books of all the world's great religions. Disrespect for the Holy Koran is abhorrent to us all," -- Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice statement delivered before testifying in Congress May 12. …who don’t understand what the big deal is as this is a book, not a person. But our US network stations haven’t keep the stories behind these facts in front of the American public: --following list on Human Rights First website, for cited references follow http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/misc/factsheet.htm "· 28 to 31 detainees died in U.S. custody due to suspected or confirmed criminal homicides.1 A total of 108 detainees have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan; · Only 1 of the criminal homicides occurred at Abu Ghraib.; · 63 of the detainees died at locations other than Abu Ghraib.; · At least 45 detainees have died in U.S. custody since Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was informed of the abuses at Abu Ghraib on January 16, 2004.; · As of February 2005, roughly 65,000 people have been screened for possible detention, and about 30,000 of those were entered “into the system,” and assigned internment serial numbers in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan; · There have been more than 360 investigations into abuse and homicide; each investigation tends to include more than one U.S. soldier, more than one instance of abuse, and more than one victim. A total of 137 U.S. soldiers have been punished. Of the 137 punishments, at least 76 were administrative, non-judicial punishments. The highest ranking military member punished is Marine Major Clarke Paulus, who was found guilty of maltreatment and dereliction of duty in connection with the death of an Iraqi prisoner and dismissed from the service.; · Reportedly 100-150 individuals have been rendered from U.S. custody to a foreign country known to torture prisoners, including to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan; · There are 6 main acknowledged U.S. detention facilities worldwide--3 in Iraq, 2 in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay; · There are also approximately 25 transient facilities - field prisons designed to house detainees only for a short period until they can be released or transferred to a more permanent facility-in Afghanistan and Iraq;10 · There are believed to be at least 9 ‘secret’ detention locations used since September 2001. They are CIA facilities in Afghanistan, Guantanamo, and Jordan, detention facilities in Alizai, Kohat and Peshawar in Pakistan, a facility on the U.S. Naval Base on the island of Diego-Garcia, and detentions of prisoners on U.S. ships, particularly the USS Peleliu and USS Bataan. · Over 11,000 people are currently in U.S. detention in just Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. As of March 2005, in Iraq, there were 8,900 detainees in the main facilities and 1,300 in transient facilities; as of May 2005, the U.S. was holding approximately 520 detainees in Afghanistan; there are also approximately 520 detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and at least 2 enemy combatants held in the U.S. · 36 prisoners are believed to be held in unknown locations;13 · 8 investigations have been completed. Only two of those investigations interviewed military or civilian officials above the brigade level;14 · At least 325 foreign fighters detained in Iraq to whom the Administration says the Geneva Conventions do not apply; · There were up to 100 ghost detainees in Iraq; · The U.S. transferred at least one dozen prisoners out of Iraq for further interrogation in violation of the Geneva Conventions; · At least 234 detainees have been released from Guantanamo Bay since January 2002. 167 were released out right, and 67 were released to their home countries for continued detention; · 38 detainees at Guantanamo determined not to be enemy combatants pursuant to CSRT and 23 detainees subsequently released. " Quibbling about just how many Quran’s doesn’t even make the list. Having the White House announcement that 99% of all Quran handling is done correctly really misses the mark. On Friday afternoon, here in the US the news late in the day is that sure enough what our young woman in Germany has read in her German magazine is true. Only how this is presented is by fresh military investigation. What is not disclosed is that none of this is “new news” and this has been documented since 2002. Nor is it disclosed that in 2002, Donald Rumsfeld “authorized interrogation tactics at Guantanamo Bay that included the removal of religious items, forced grooming such as shaving facial hair, and removal of clothing. Indeed, the Defense Department’s own investigation of operations at Guantanamo Bay, conducted by Vice Admiral Albert T. Church, found cases in which a female interrogator ‘touched and spoke to detainees in a sexually suggestive manner in order to incur stress based on the detainees’ religious beliefs.”—(from ”Ammo for the enemy—by Deborah Pearlstein, http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=9809 ) The ACLU and Human Rights First filed suite against Rumsfeld on March 1, 2005 on behalf of eight detainees. The following press link further outlines what was authorized as acceptable tactics. http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2005_alerts/etn_0301_lit.htm The inability of the Bush administration to admit to mistake, faulty thinking, accept responsibility and accountability, is taking human life and the cause of unnecessary human suffering and sure looks to continue to do so well into the future. It is ignorance, arrogance, or indifference that would be the source this blindness? What on earth has to happen for clear vision, or any vision for that matter, to return?

Joeanna Nee on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Joeanna Nee — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:50:49 +0100

Technically, what Bush has done is what is called a legal loophole. Those prisoners will not have access to any courts for a very lloooonnnggg time, by classifying them as 'detainees' and not prisoners of war, and that gitmo-being a military base on foreign land is held under military law and not American court of law. They could be held there indeterminably. Now, if I remember my history (Im rusty at Russian history) if you pissed someone off in the Russian government you were sent to Siberian gulag. There was no "sentencing time" just off you go. Hard labor is what they were used for too if I remember correctly. So on that one point, they arent being forced to work in any mines. But as a person studying the law, this was definitely a Johnny Cochran move. What does that say about our MORALITY and sense of FAIR PLAY that we have all been taught is what we as Americans are about. That our constitution affords all men with this inalienable right. Let them face a court of law, like the nazi did. Justice is suppose to be swift, blind and balanced. Since when did she take her blind fold off, tip her scales and ponder slowly? Just a thought ttrryosborn. What are we gaining by keeping them there? Is it going to stop any group that is that fanatical in their hate for us. NO. Ther e was a famous Qoute and I cant remember who said it (on the tip of my tongue) but it goes "you can tell alot about a society by the way it treats its criminals" after doing some time in a prison. If anybody can remember who it was before I can locate my link to famous qoutes-please feel free to add it. Look, Im just one simple American mother, living in Maine trying to raise her kids how not to hate, how to learn from another persons culture, how one persons beliefs may not be agreeable to us doesnt mean we cant try to understand it. I also tell him that by being an American, that the indigenous people of this land paid a high price. Let us not be sheep, they are truly stupid animals. Oh, one more thing ... what is your obsession with "wetdreams?" Is war and hate a sexual thing for you? Im gettin a little creeped out. Joeanna

Ttrryosborn on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Ttrryosborn — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:17:36 +0100

Neocynic, neither (You're handle is great)

Neocynic on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Neocynic — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 08:08:24 +0100

Reuters has reported that the detainee who made the original desecration claim (in 2002) has recanted his story also. Was that before or after he was tortured?

Ttrryosborn on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Ttrryosborn — Sun, 05 Jun 2005 07:48:30 +0100

pupri, You are desperate to cherry pick any inaccurate stories you can find to justify your blind obsessions. If you had read the US army's own report instead of the orgy of bias available, you'd know you're being duped. you're search for information has overlooked the simple fact that the Qurans at Quantanmo were provided to detainees by the US army along with the islamic army chaplains. When the prison was opened in early 2002, all guards were instructed to respect detainees' religious rituals. Along with the Qurans, the US army gave each detainee a surgical mask to use as a cradle to hold the book. After examing 31,000 documents from Guantanamo the facts are that most desecrations of the Quran were done by inmates. They include: 1 detainee ripped his Quran apart giving up his faith. 1 detainee ripped off the cover. 1 guard accidentally knocked a Quran from its' hanging pouch during a search. 2 guards searched hanging pouches looking for contraband. 1 guard dropped a Quran from its' pouch during a cell search. It landed on a bed. 3 detainees tore pages from their Qurans and threw them in the toilette. 1 claim by detainees that a Quran was throw in a toilette by a guard was found to have been done by a detainee. The guards made the detainee go to each cell to apologize for HIS act. One guard accidentally placed a Quran on a television to which a detainee asked him to pick it up. The guard did and absentmindedly put it back on the TV. An incident involving a Quran and urine comes from a guard who decided to take a piss near a vent (not in the presence of detainees). A detainee claimed that some drops of urine went through the vent system and landed on his Quran. How something as bizarre and silly as that would make world headlines is itself bizarre. The "Gulag of today" comment was made by Zubaida Kahn of the Amnesty International. She has said her comment was not a factual one. It has been discovered that many prominent members of Amnesty International donated the maximum legal donation of $2,000 each to the presidential campaign of John Kerry, last year. That in itself is a scandal for an organization which is supposedly impartial. It looks like this careless exaggeration and outright bias against the US administration will put AI's reputation in the toilette. In addition to the US army's findings, Reuters has reported that the detainee who made the original desecration claim (in 2002) has recanted his story also.

Pupri on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

*Pupri* — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:22:00 +0100

seriously u repeat yourself at least every 2 posts. "Do you think honestly if there is a higher power who considers all human beings his children would only reach out to the people of Islam?" Again i did NOT only refer to Islam- it seems you have some kind of issues with muslims because you keep making such refernces as quoted above about them! Hi you are being really offensive to me in all the posts! So maybe you should also calm down a bit- before pointing your fingure at others!!

Joeanna Nee on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Joeanna Nee — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:18:10 +0100

Again Pupri, In the native people of america there is a story (which is sacred to the native indian here) That a prophet came to them. Do you think honestly if there is a higher power who considers all human beings his children would only reach out to the people of Islam? The Great White Spirit is what they call God. I didnt knock the kuran, nor would I knock the Jewish Torah, or any other groups sacred and Holy books. I am a woman of Faith in God, but I donot subscribe to any organized religion. So, do you think you can get a grip and realize that Im not bashing any of your posts. (ok the evelyn wood thing is a sarcastic remark, but you are not reading or maybe not understanding what Im writing. Pupri, if you and I cant bridge a gap, even though I keep asking for one, how do you expect the world to do it? Does it not start with at leat one small step? I am truly hoping you have read the Entire post before you jump up my ass again. Thanks, I really would appreciate it. Joeanna p.s How did you get that I was being Racist out of that??? I have been reading your other posts to try to understand what you are about. I think what the Germans did to you was wrong. All I asked you was if there was a language barrier between us so I could facilitate a better debate, not one of insults. My family came here from oppressed countries ... my great-grandparents. We know what it is like to be spit on and looked down upon. "Dirty mics and stupid poles" So the last thing I have ever been is a racist. If we are here to try to fix things then it starts by trying to understand one another, not just call each other "dumbass". A dialogue is a conversation that flows back and forth. You asked me for a "comeback" and I simply stated that I wasnt a twelve year old. I am an intelligent woman and have not gone out of my way to try to insult anyone. Im just trying to understand people better-good, bad or indifferent. Understanding brings light to the darkened areas and shows shadows for what they really are ...figments of an overactive fearful imagination. God help me, I hope you understand me now, or at least are willing to try to understand. Thanks anyways, Joeanna Message was edited by: Joeanna Nee

Pupri on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

*Pupri* — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:02:08 +0100

"But, there are many who hold the US to be a sacred country" How could it be holy?? what good to the world has it brought?? Places like Jersusalem or Mecca are sacred and holy as prophets have appeared there, but america nothing of this happened! I think people callin america sacred seriously have some brain damage or should maybe first learn the definition of sacred!

Matt Murrell on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Matt Murrell — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:57:17 +0100

Can the American flag and the Qu'ran be compared? It's an interesting question. Both hold immense symbolic value to millions of people, and desecration of either causes great offense. Pupri makes the point that the flag isn't holy. But, there are many who hold the US to be a sacred country... Being neither patriotic, nor religious, I don't feel I'm in the best position to come up with any answers. A little more thought on my part is required, in the hope that others will provide some enlightening posts on the subject. Sorry. Long day. I've just made another attempt to read the proposed EU Constitution, and my brain is a little frazzled.

Pupri on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

*Pupri* — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:49:39 +0100

"It is actually against the law to burn an American flag, unless it has touched the ground. I have watched for years, people of islamic countries burn our flag. Did anybody care? No."GOD, its NOT holy!! ok it might be something sacred to you, but seriously it CAN NOT be compared!! But still it is not right! But see they didnt pee on it or did other obsecne crap with it, they burnt it- which is bad enough, but what those americans did is WAY worse!!

Joeanna Nee on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Joeanna Nee — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:40:48 +0100

I truly believe that these incidents have happened, I of course have no proof, but if it wasn't for the pictures of abu ghraib, I dont doubt it. But now, I pose this question in all fairness ... we Americans hold our flag sacred. It is actually against the law to burn an American flag, unless it has touched the ground. I have watched for years, people of islamic countries burn our flag. Did anybody care? No. I abhor the fact that soldiers who swear duty to God and country could desecrate a Holy book. After all, no matter what you call Him, be it Allah( i hope I spelled that right)Buddah or White Spirit (native indians) they should have NEVER desecrated it. Even retired generals are calling for heads to roll, and not just the grunts. At Gitmo, nothing ever happens unless ordered by superiors. That is why we call marines jarheads. They always follow orders, and will not implicate who the order came from. Enough is enough, as I said before, our beef is with the people directly responsible for the 9/11 attack. We bombed the livin crap out of their country. Now what good is it took keep those people at gitmo. Send them back and lets get on with what we as americans should do to fix the problems here at home and watch our borders more carefully. Repair the damage doesnt seem to be in Bushs plan. Time for more letter writing and annoying phone calls to my elected officials. (their terms are shorter than the presidents). As an American, I am truy ashamed of this dispicable act. I may not be the president, but for what its worth this american is truly sorry for what my country has done. Yes, I was outraged at the attack, but I would never desecrate a Holy book. That is the same as when the klu klux klan burnt down churches because they were black churces. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Deeply ashamed, Joeanna

Pupri on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

*Pupri* — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:36:13 +0100

LOL

Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!,

*Pupri* — Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:37:29 +0100

Here we go again- The Bush administartion soo had to do something with the News week taking back its story about the Quran being flushed down the toilet. Yesterday it was actually announced by the US that there are 5 cases in which the Quran was misused and disrespected infront of prisoners at Guatomana Bay. They urinated on it and did some obsence stuff as well according to german focus magazine. Amnesty International even called Guatomana Bay the "Gulag of today", of course Bush called this "absurd".

open Democracy News Analysis - Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!, - Comments

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Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!,

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Pupri on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Pupri on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"

Pupri on "Soooo news week wasnt wrong!!"