open Democracy News Analysis - ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED, - Comments

Eduardo Ferreira on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Eduardo Ferreira — Sat, 09 Jul 2005 16:04:38 +0100

Dear Joeanna, You said: "I think more of us are ashamed of it than we are willing to admit Eduardo." I know that some of us are, I was just trying to challenge the status quo of many others. But why are we not willing to admit been ashamed? To avoid change? "I believe that if one is allow oneself to wallow in saddness then that is what one will spread to others" You are absolutely true. Our state of mind influences not only yourselves but the people around us. What you said falls under that stoic idea that is not the things that happen that afect us, but it is the way we feel about the things that happen that afect us. "It is said by many historians that most civilizations last for about 2000 years before they degenerate and crumble, for the next one to start" This is a natural cycle for every thing on this earth. Things have a birth, grow into its prime and then decay, until they finally die. I urge anybody to find something that behaves differently. The decay of our civilization in inevitable, but as you very well put, the question is what will come after it. We have to remember that the previous civilizations where geographically and technologically restricted, therefore they had little perspective of such catastrophic end like our civilizations poses. However, I think we put ourselves in a high scale of importance in a cosmic point of view. Even if humanity was to do its worst, it was not possible to extinguish all life on Earth, and that includes human life. It is possible to plunge the planet into a night of thousand of years, but life will always flourish. "Shouldnt we try to find one another, protest -Ghandi did it, without resorting to violence. Jesus did it, without resorting to violence." It is true that Ghandi and Jesus had a message of peace. Yet the people to whom they carried the message where quit to kill them. This is a lesson on itself, mankind carries the seeds of war and destruction inside each one of us. I see it in me. Certainly it is a positive thing to have a mobilization of good will. However a real revolution would be at individual level, as you very well say: "The only thing stopping us is change." The fractal mathematics says that whatever exists in a macroscale is a replication of a pattern than exists in microscale, and in fact it exists in several scales. For instance, the surface of the mountain resembles the surface of a rock. So, the behavior of humanity resembles the behavior of one man. If we change ourselves, we change humanity. "Change creates fear and as once was so famously stated "We have nothing to FEAR but FEAR itself"" All that I say is like preaching to the converted, and essentially I am saying it to myself. I am afraid that most people would not recognize what needs to be changed. And if they know it, then they have to surpass the difficulty of change. I did not. In fact people don't change because they don't want to. There are things in them that wish to remain as they are. People wish to be able to explode in anger, frustration and aggression, and if they try to deny themselves this indulgence, then they will trick themselves to that behavior under twisted justifications.

Joeanna Nee on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Joeanna Nee — Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:43:07 +0100

Dear Eduardo, Keep in mind, Im an American and that some of my comments are meant in levity. I believe that if one is allow oneself to wallow in saddness then that is what one will spread to others, while being swallowed hole by that saddness. There is such a complexity to the issues that could be met with an arguement at every turn, that I am well aware of. I just believe that if we dont start somewhere, it will all be too late. It is said by many historians that most civilizations last for about 2000 years before they degenerate and crumble, for the next one to start. Well the ancient Greeks and Romans didnt have Nuclear and biological weapons. So does that mean the cockroaches are the next civilization? (that is meant to be cheeky) If there are alot of us, who want world peace, and we are a majority, cant we do something. Shouldnt we try to find one another, protest -Ghandi did it, without resorting to violence. Jesus did it, without resorting to violence. Why cant we? The only thing stopping us is change. Change creates fear and as once was so famously stated "We have nothing to FEAR but FEAR itself" We squabble over chunks of dirt, we squabble over who's party is better, we squabble over who's religion is right, it seems pretty petty when you take a broad look at it. I think more of us are ashamed of it than we are willing to admit Eduardo. Sadly enough, Joeanna

Eduardo Ferreira on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Eduardo Ferreira — Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:45:59 +0100

Dear Joeanna, You said: "[] I agree that each country views laws and what is considered right and wrong so vastly different. [] Who is to say that we are right and that another country is wrong. " That is certainly true and could be scaled down to individual level. People are different (while alike) and react differently to things. Who is to say what is wrong and what is right? There are things that are obviously wrong, but most are subjected to arbitrary interpretations. "I think that we are an intelligent species (which also makes us the most dangerous species on the planet)[]" Certainly we are the most dangerous species on the planet, and certainly we have the potential for intelligence. However I do not believe that the human species is demonstrating intelligence in most areas of its activity. Beginning with myself, I believe that we work with closed conceptions and automatic reactions - clearly not a sign of intelligence. Man should be aware of all data regarding a problem before it reacts to that situation, but is this our way of doing things? If someone pushes us, we push back. How easy is to get a specific reaction from someone... It is like Pavlov training, and every dog can do it. If I am to praise people, they will become satisfied. If I criticize them, they will be frustrated. There is no sense of internal balance in the way we feel. It is also logical for an intelligent species to achieve a balanced relation with is habitat. Are we doing it? In the movie Matrix, agent Smith said it very well: humans go to a place and deplete every resource there, so our behavior is like a virus. And how intelligent are the virus? "I just want peace for my children, I want them to be happy and not scared." How much there is to say about such simple and direct statement. First I state that my wish is exactly the same, I wish my two kids could grow in a safe and sane world. But then I remember that, as much as I can do, it is out of my hands. I could say that their destiny is on Gods hand, and all I can do is not going to change whatever are his wishes. That certainly is not a reason to lower my hands and do nothing, but I will not be surprised when what I do does not turn out the way I wanted to. Sometimes is even for the best that it doesn't. Buddhists would say that we suffer because we desire things. "To make an argument that we have to eradicate someone because they are evil, is a half assed argument." It is not only an argument but a deep philosophic problem as well. You recognized yourself that there where situations where it would be justifiable to use force. But that is according to you. Other people could se other situations as "justifiable", while you might disagree. In fact there is no right answer to the problem. J.R.R. Tolkien had this line in one of his books: Should I go to the land of my enemies to slain them and their families? Or should I do nothing and when they come to slain my family I can say "at least I did not kill"? "There got to be a way, Eduardo. Thats all Im saying." There is not only one way but many ways, and they have always been presented to us. We are the ones that refuse to take those ways. Personally I have been given the gift of a path of self-improvement, but did I take it? Ashamed I will say that I did not, it is too difficult to give up what we are and reach for something better. I would say that the devil is in our self, and it does not have horns or sulfur, but makes us betray our conscience so thoroughly that most time we ignore that it exists. And you complained about Satanists... "God help us all, how ashamed He must be of us all." Indeed he must, I just wonder why we are not. Best regards, Eduardo

Joeanna Nee on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Joeanna Nee — Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:52:06 +0100

Dear Eduardo, Extremely interesting, and yes I agree that each country views laws and what is considered right and wrong so vastly different. That is why I had such a problem with people who believe it is up to the US to overthrow the evil people of the world. I just dont believe we have that right. Who is to say that we are right and that another country is wrong. "Judge not, lest ye be judged". Are there bad people in the world, sure, but I dont believe we should be the SOLE decision makers in meddling with other countries affairs. Im sure youve heard of the old addage "people who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones". I think that we are an intelligent species (which also makes us the most dangerous species on the planet) and can use our intelligence to keep fighting for a global solution- a magna carta if you will. A true compromise means that both sides arent exaclty happy. I keep trying to say it, but I either get slammed or ignored. I just want peace for my children, I want them to be happy and not scared. I want people to be able to worship the way they want, and whatever higher power they have. I have nothing against muslims, or Islam (hell, I dont even know the difference between the two) , or Jehovah witnesses, seventh day adventist, evangelists, catholics, jews, orthodox catholics, (ok, I do have a little problem with Satanist-im a woman of faith and he is a fallen angel), methodists, baptist, hinduism, buddism and so forth. Even atheist. I feel I have no right telling someone else their wrong, and Im right when it comes to how they believe, and thats why I have a problem with people who keep saying attacking Iraq was the right thing, well if their arguement is because he is evil and mistreats his people then one must follow through the entire arguement: Attack North Korea-they treat their people abysmally, Attack china they have no human rights (remember tianemen square), Attack Cuba Castro is close enough to use to actually attack us, Attack Lybia-they have threatened us, and momar khadafi isnt known for being a pro human rights guy, and while we are at it lets hop on over to cambodia because they allow pedophiles to abuse their children (seen on 60minutes undercover, also on a 48hour show too). See what I mean? To make an arguement that we have to eradicate someone because they are evil, is a half assed arguement. We need to try a more diplomatic approach. So what if it takes a long time, its better than picking and choosing who to attack and in a Nuclear age all it is going to take is one megaton nuke and its all over for all of us. That is what scares me, my children and all our children deserve more. I just want them to grow up, see them happy, not see images of war as I had growing up. If we are smart enough to make weapons like bunkerbuster bombs, smart bombs remote control humvees, arent we smart enough to say hey how about we all sit down and hammer out an agreement, with certain consequences for failure to comply. If we do it for our children, we as adults should be able to do it for each other. No one said it would be easy, but neither is war. I would take a paper cut over a bomb any day. Why are we so afraid of talking to one another? Why is the almighty dollar more important? When there is a world war three, the only thing that will survive are cockroaches and twinkies. No one wants to look past what goin on at the present and look down the road, and I have a feeling they are condemning my children to an unimaginable hell. There got to be a way, Eduardo. Thats all Im saying. When a natural disaster happens, everyone pitches in, even when we dont speak the language, a smile is univeral, a helping hand is universal. If we can chip in all together then, why not now? Not a single person has answered that. Ive said it a plethera of times, and all I get is waltzing or totally ignored. God help us all, how ashamed He must be of us all. Sadly, Joeanna

Eduardo Ferreira on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Eduardo Ferreira — Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:47:39 +0100

Dear Joeanna, There is certainly an imperative in the "has to be done" situation. But only if one takes upon itself the responsibilities of raising kids and preparing them for life. Many people with more opportunities refuse to take such responsibilities. I certainly will agree with the need to be independent, and I feel the same way as you, even if I was not raised to think like that. However I might point out that there are hazards in absolute convictions, and I do not believe that my absolute need for independence is always a good thing. It is simply too easy to interpret as qualities all my attitudes. Regarding nationalities, certainly we need to think more on what approaches us instead of what divides us. But one thing is such a goal, and the other is the reality. There are specific cultural issues that make people from different nationalities different, it starts by the way they where raised and the experiences they had in their countries. The way people address their daily life is different. If you go to Portugal you will find that driving is a hazardous and strange activity, for lack of basic civility. The most deadly road in Europe is on my country. But if you go to next door, to Spain, they have other idiosyncrasies, like they way they park cars. Regarding the original issue, I grant to you that there is all kind of people in the US, lazy and hardworking, like everywhere else. But how many people do you know that is so committed to their work that they spend more than 10 hours in their job in regular basis? Probably you know a few. I know only one person. That is the difference. People on the US are a lot more committed to what they do. I already referred to the fact that, historically, there was a large flow of emigration to the US and Canada from my Islands. These people take their specific culture and adapt it to their new country, and while they are different they behave like others. For instance: they adapt a language that is not exactly English, and maintain several traditions and some of their culture, however they do not maintain all the attitudes they had in their country, for instance regarding work and civility. When these emigrants return to their country, they see it under their new views. Therefore, if they come from the US or Canada, they say that their countrymen don’t work. Or if they come from Switzerland they will be appalled by the lack of civility. Regards, Eduardo

Joeanna Nee on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Joeanna Nee — Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:16:48 +0100

Dear Eduardo, Yes, things are often easier said then done. I have often been asked "how do you manage to work, raise your kids and take care of your house? My husband went away for the week and Im ready to pull my hair out" The answer is simple ... You do what you have to because that is what is in front of you. You dont actively think "OH, I cant ..." you do one thing at a time, sometimes you can do two things at a time, but you just do it. It needs to get done, its not going away, and I have to little guys that depend on me to get it done. When you are use to things being a certain way, it doesnt cross your mind that life could be different. I am just one of those people that was meant to have a hard life, Im use to it, I make the best of it and Im ok with it. That is what I know, I suppose if I had a married life, with a productive partner maybe I might feel that way, but I wasnt raised that way, so probably not. I was raised that NO ONE was ever going to take care of me but me. My mother was right, and I have always made sure I could take care of me and mine. I would like to think that if people could see past their nationalities and religious differences, they might be able to see that we arent that much different inside. Truly, Joeanna

Ttrryosborn on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Ttrryosborn — Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:15:24 +0100

brolly3, Read your post of July 5. The one thing that you can be relied upon is to repeat yourself ad nauseum. The question of Bush, Blair and the dozens of others countries in the coaliton against Saddam has been answered over and over. You're boring me with it. Do you have the ability to ask questions about the future other than "the eviction of the US, no matter how long it takes, from the Mideast"? Dwelling only in the past is making you embittered.

Joeanna Nee on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Joeanna Nee — Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:01:40 +0100

Dear Henry and Brolly, You both crack me up! I could totally picture you both sitting across from each other with a chess board between you, in the park harumphing each other to death! God bless you both, Id give you a hug and a kiss on the cheek but this is cyberspace so : xo Thanks for the viewpoints, I do gain so much from the both of you. Hearing more than one point of view is far more valuable then a hard line, in order to get a better perspective. Truly, Joeanna Message was edited by: Joeanna Nee

henry_hart_1 on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

henry_hart_1 — Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:42:24 +0100

See what I mean about the bumbling? How could I not laugh? HH This extremely short message was NOT edited by: henry_hart_1

Eduardo Ferreira on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Eduardo Ferreira — Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:12:34 +0100

Dear Joeanna, You are quite correct to say that America is a diversity of people. There is also every type of persons in my own country, Portugal. Many of my countrymen emigrated to America and Canada. However there is a kind of "National tendency", that I cannot quite explain, but every country has one. What I know is that historically (and in history that goes way back), I can see the same general attitudes that I would consider Portuguese: the huge capability to overcome difficulties, but the great lethargy with daily affairs and the affairs of the future. On the other hand we have the American way of *doing things*. The mobilization that you have always been able to achieve, and the huge energy devoted to whatever you proposed to do: take the race to the moon, for instance... As for your father, I am quite sad to ear your tale. Children are always the victims of the alcohol, and in my region we have plenty of such problems. How is it possible to have so much suffering right in your next door? I didn’t quite picture you as an aggressive woman, perhaps you exaggerate about yourself. So I did not take you wrong, in fact I gained a lot more respect. Some time ago I had some interest in stoic philosophy. There was this concept from Epictetus that I will recall: It is not the things that happen that afect us, but it is the way we feel about the things that happen that afect us. That is one of the most interesting concepts I have read. But then, it is easy to speak about things and hard to live them. The value is on living.

brolly3 on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

brolly3 — Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:45:53 +0100

henry - hothead - hart, If I'm a bumbler, then your the fully loaded, de luxe version, with an interest free sticker on your nose. Message was edited by: brolly3

Joeanna Nee on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Joeanna Nee — Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:37:22 +0100

Dear Eduardo, It wasnt details of the trade "passed" on like a parent teaching a child the family business. He dealt with vietnam with liquid courage (Budweiser), he would have a flashback, or something would set him off. He "thought" he was helping me or something ... I dont know, I dont ever really want to know. Im just saying that war does things to people, aweful things. The war doesnt just end when everybody goes home. I know, I lived Vietnam over and over until Mom finally got a day job, a little too late. I am now an overly aggresive woman, I have no subtle ways, Im a small built woman who couldnt be femenine to save my life. War stays with us, and Im in my late thirties. I have flashbacks of those nights. When dad was sober, he didnt talk about the war, the alcohol did. You might want to rethink your conclusion on the American People. We are a diverse group. Some take life too seriously, while others dont take life seriously at all. People, if you look beyond what ideology they follow, are basically alike. You have your hard workers, your slackers, your moochers, your control freaks, your elite, your ignorant, your rich, your indigant and so on. Im sure every country has them, just speak different languages, and some laws are different then others, that can cause different variables, also. I hope you dont think my job is ripping testes out of people Eduardo! I am a mother, that is my first job, my foremost job. I feel that in my job description is to try to teach my sons that they are independent thinkers, to question someone elses reasonings if they dont understand or their heart tells them too. I teach them to listen to their heart, to pray for guidance and to try to be quiet enough to hear the answer. I believe that if America could treat the Nazi soldiers they captured with respect, when they slaughtered millions of people just because they are Jewish, then we should treat these prisoners the same. I believe that is why my Dad drank, he saw the enemy up close, saw that they were people just like he was, with families just like he had, children sent in as human bombs to kill his platoon. It must be an aweful burden to look into the eyes of another human being and take their last breath, but that is war. Even the living dont get out alive. I hope that clears up a few things for you Eduardo, I think maybe the way I speak my language and the way you interpret it might be different. So, if anything else confuses you or you dont quite get it, just let me know. Truly, Joeanna p.s I had a word in front of a sentence that didnt belong, sorry had to fix it. Message was edited by: Joeanna Nee

Eduardo Ferreira on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

Eduardo Ferreira — Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:05:55 +0100

Dear Joeanna, I read with interest your post, and if I may, I would like to make some comments. My father had also a war experience in Africa, and one of the worst places of that war: Guinea. With a lot less publicity that the Vietnam war - and with lower scale in many other aspects - it still remained a dirty war that left many soldiers traumatized. I am not quite sure about my father, but he never liked to discuss that war. We did get some stories out of him, with great reluctance. What amazes me is that your father had passed you the details of the "trade", especially when you where a 6 years old child. I said I was amazed but not surprise. I came to the conclusion that the US people take things rather seriously, and when they do something they devote themselves fully to that thing. That is a great quality and a huge flaw. It depends on the application. In the case of police, justice and military matters, it may create problems. Probably the opposite of this "devotion" is my own people that tend to leave the deeper involvement to others, but are capable of amazing performances when forced to. That is also a good quality and a huge flaw. But the range of applications where it is a flaw in enormous, therefore my country is a mess. This is a philosophic matter with many implications that should be discussed elsewhere, but I will try to keep it relevant to the context of this forum. It appears to me that neither choice is a good one, but the goal would be a balance of the two, mingled with reason and spirituality. Certainly you should commit yourself to the work you do, and excel on it. But not at the cost of your soul, your humanity, or your family. Therefore I pity those poor creatures that inflict torture on others convinced that they are doing their "job" and it will be a "job" well done. They are the ones that lose, as well as the nation that is responsible for it. It is also correct that you should follow the rules you are bond to. But not to the extent that those rules become a blind tool of inhumanity. There are many paths to reach the same destiny, and if we see only one then we are as much as blind. Therefore I am unsure that it is the US Administration to hold the sole responsibility of what is happening in Iraq and the War on Terror. People that give the orders depend on others to fulfill them, and they are in power because they where put there. It is clear to me that the small reflect onto the big. What we are as individuals reflect on our nation. Others are less kind and say that "nations deserve the leaders they have" (look at the Gulag Archipelago, where Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said that the Russians deserved the Stalin dictatorship). Without even addressing the global issues that will result on our destiny as a species, I think people should learn and improve themselves. If we look only onto others we may overlook the "beam in our own eye". I do not assign myself a moral high ground either. I often ask if I would not do the same as others if I where on their shoes. Anybody is tempted to imagine itself as a guard in Abu Grahib prision?

brolly3 on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

brolly3 — Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:43:28 +0100

henry_hart, ["The World Tribunal on Iraq? Are you serious??"] You sound like John McEnroe did at Wimbledon in the 1980's, when he would not accept the Umpire's calls. He was, of course, behaving like a spoilt brat who couldn't get his own way. You are the same! Of course neocynic is serious. Why is it so hard for you to believe? Is it because you think that the US is beyond being judged for its conduct because it is too powerful? If so, you are obviously wrong. You imply that no one has the right to judge US actions. No nation just like no individual stands above the law indefinitely. Message was edited by: brolly3

henry_hart_1 on "ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED"

henry_hart_1 — Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:53:02 +0100

The World Tribunal on Iraq? Are you serious??

ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT HAVE BEEN PREPARED,

Neocynic — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:04:49 +0100

With the disclosure of the Downing Street Memo (http://downingstreetmemo.com/), and its progeny, there is now substantial documentary evidence that the Bush administration participated in a criminal conspiracy to defraud the U.S. Government by knowingly misrepresenting intelligence to induce the U.S. Congress to approve and fund the war in Iraq. Over half a million Americans are petitioning the White House to answer to the charges. One hundred members of the House have also demanded that the WHite House answer the key allegation contained in the Memo: Was the intelligence "fixed"? On a balance of probabilties, the answer is an undoubted yes. If it is true beyond a reasonable doubt, Bush et al. should be impeached and then indicted for war crime. Read the rest of this post...