open Democracy News Analysis - Independence Day!, - Comments

Neocynic on "Independence Day!"

Neocynic — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:50:14 +0100

Call for united mass action Thousands will march on Saturday, September 24. Join the National Mass March in Washington DC, and the regional demonstrations in San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle. The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition urges the antiwar movement to come together for a united demonstration. Mass March on Saturday, September 24 in Washington D.C. Regional demonstrations in San Francisco, Los Angeles & Seattle http://www.internationalanswer.org/

Ttrryosborn on "Independence Day!"

Ttrryosborn — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:10:00 +0100

huck, 1) "moan..." Doesn't everybody on OD? 2)"...won't learn anything on OD." What have you learned, grasshopper? 3)"PATTERNS" Don't say I didn't warn you 4)"business and investment forum"? The best investment is the investment in yourself.

Joeanna Nee on "Independence Day!"

Joeanna Nee — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:01:51 +0100

Dear Ttrryosborn, I really dont understand your usage of the word "uh" to reply to a post, but ok. People have offered what they think as proof, there are also opinion based debates, but no one has been as adamant about calling someone a plagarist, which is very important in a legal standpoint. You are the one who brought it back up. Using the "point back at you" tactic will not work with me. I asked Neo directly about her story, and she replied and others tried to research it as well. Plagarism is actually not a dig, and if you cant afford someone respect, no matter how annoying they can be. It shows that she is the bigger person, and you should not have brought it back up. I would hope that I have joined a forum that values everyones opinion, and not those of a select few "deemed worthy". If you were a new person and read some of these exchanges, and what you had to offer was phenomenal intelligence, would you want to post here? We teach our children to be civil, we teach our children to be just, we teach our children to be kind and empathetic, so ... then how do we show it?

huck on "Independence Day!"

huck — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:48:59 +0100

terry 1. You moan that this forum is always about the US. That's because the forum subject is 'American Power & the World'. The clue is in the title. 2. You tell me I won't learn anything on OD. On the contrary, this thread has been most instructive. I've learned not to trust your posts one inch. I've learned to handle your posts with an extremely long bargepole. 3. We have all had the opportunity to see the PATTERN of your approach. 4. I think you want the 'business & investment' forum. It's down the corridor, round the corner, 2nd door on the left.

Ttrryosborn on "Independence Day!"

Ttrryosborn — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 06:22:41 +0100

Uh Joeanna, "Innocent until proven guilty"? That's a very funny statement considering the low standard of proof offered every day on OD against Bush, Blair, the UK and the US. "Evidence" against them, and others,is nothing more than opinion pieces and wild conjectures from other websites painted on OD to look like facts. Why don't you protest that? If you did grow up in a time of "innocent until proven guilty", why don't you practice it evenly? Do you forget, or do you apply it selectively? NeoP stands. It's not even important. It's a dig, just like the digs I get all the time. You haven't earned your spurs on OD until you get one.

Joeanna Nee on "Independence Day!"

Joeanna Nee — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:17:55 +0100

Dear Ttrryosborn, I know quite a bit about computers, actually. Also, that is no excuse to continue calling someone a plagarist without proof. If you indeed had read that story then it will indeed be documented, again a boolean search, even a trip to your local library can prove to be quite useful. I grew up in a time when you were innocent until proven guilty. Hopefully, no, I havent forgotten that lesson.

Ttrryosborn on "Independence Day!"

Ttrryosborn — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 01:46:44 +0100

uh Joanna, "source material"? You know less about how computers work than I do. We grew up in a time where we knew what we saw. Have you forgotten? Sheesh.

brolly3 on "Independence Day!"

brolly3 — Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:19:10 +0100

Ttrryosborn, [“I am in the same boat as you. I sold a family business that I grew up in. The time was right and the offer was extremely good. I have spent a year looking at a new venture, or investment, without success. Income property in California is very high, it has become minus-income property. with 30% down, one would still have to collect every rent on time and have no unexpected expenses to break even for the years it would take to pay off-- all things which are unlikely to happen. I saw friends overpay in a similar market 15 years ago. Property values AND RENTS dropped which forced them to walk away”.] The situation with regard to income property has changed over the last few years in the UK and especially the southern half of the country, which has until this year seen increases in capital value of residential property, far in excess of inflation. We have had increases of as much as 20% per annum over several years. It’s the same old story. When the prices were lower (but not low) around the late nineties, people worried that we might experience another property meltdown, which we had after a previous inflationary increase from about 1985 – 1989, after which hundreds of thousands of homes were repossessed by the banks and other mortgage lenders in a savagely deflationary housing market over a period of four years. The courageous minority, however, bought in the later nineties on the assumption that the meltdown would not happen again as the politicians had handed over interest rate policy to an independent committee, who would not cut interest rates unwisely just to help win an election, as had happened in the past. This proved to be a sound judgement and prices have appreciated enormously. This was due to a low interest rate environment and a shortage of land for building, which is the case in a small, crowded island like the UK. The rental returns for those that bought their investment six to seven years ago have been quite reasonable, with between 7 and 8% net if they paid cash, which the majority didn’t, and about 2-3 % if bought with a loan on an interest only repayment, and the hope of a capital gain while waiting for rents to increase over the years. This has been the best part of the story as capital appreciation of over 100% has taken place. Now the market is probably at a peak or at least a plateau and it is very difficult to muster the courage to buy at current prices, as the economy is slowing down and the old fears return of an overheated market. House price increases have outstripped earnings by far. [“I do not want to start a new business from scratch at my age. It would take too long to pay off. I am looking at existing businesses to buy. There are plenty of brokers to go through. However, most people lie about their businesses, or expect too much. A business is worth 18-24 months profit plus FFE and inventory. I have missed a few good buys and I'm looking at a few more now. So far, I have looked at everything from gas stations to scuba equipment. You're right about inactivity putting off your stride. I have done temporary management for friends to keep busy until I find the right opportunity. Finding something to do which gives one peace of mind is allot easier said than done”.] There is much similarity between what you have mentioned with regard to buying a business and what I have encountered here. We too have an abundance of business brokers but prices for anything half decent are extremely high. The rest are businesses that are no longer making much, if any profit, with false figures and assurances from the owner, that are frankly not credible or provable, that the true profits are not reflected in the audited accounts for tax reasons. I visited the US in 1995, when I was doing business in Poland and had a Polish technical partner. On that occasion we were involved in buying used medical equipment to take back to Poland. I returned again in 2000 to look for other ideas and ended up attending financial market expos, where I recruited some stock market ‘hot gospellers’ to lecture to British investors on market trading techniques. I promoted live four days intensive ‘Boot Camp’ courses in central London and did this for a couple of years. I never believed the ‘gurus’ that I recruited really had an effective way to beat the markets and I am reasonably sure that no one that attended the courses ever made money consistently. As for starting a business, it is very difficult to know what to do, unless one is a technological specialist and can charge a high consultancy fee or can provide a niche service. The competition in almost every field is more intense than I have ever known it and the businesses that I prospered in twenty or more years ago, have changed complexion and the effort required to make an income commensurate with what was made at that time, is far greater than they it ever was in the past. I simply do not have that degree of commitment or ambition and see the world in a different light. I no longer have much regard for those that have achieved fame and fortune in business and look upon the entrepreneurial spirit as something that had a value in the past which had its place but which in a developed world with saturated markets and far too much of everything, as being beyond its shelf life. I cannot wander in the Supermarket without wondering why there is the need for so many food products that are virtually the same, to be on offer. As soon as one Company introduces a product, others jump on the bandwagon and the replication takes place over and over again. Most tell lies in their labelling even though we are supposed to be protected by laws for that purpose. Almost all use too much salt or fat or sugar, which they attempt to disguise. [“One more suggestion about sleeping is EXERCISE-- especially cardio exercise. Nothing helps more to lower blood pressure and tension. After two weeks you'll feel like you can handle pressure under any circumstances. More importantly, it allows you to sleep all night. If you're married, you can both do it. It is wonderful to have something positive to do with your spouse. If it's not a burden, invest in a personal trainer for yourself and your wife. They will give a great start into good health. Trainers are the best money you'll ever spend.As for gyms, many in the US offer group exercise classes which you can take together. Hopefully, gyms in the UK offer them as well. If you stick with that you'll meet allot of people with the same positive attitudes toward health. Cardio exercise classes are especially fun. We meet nice people in them all the time who complain their spouses don't want to come. They don't know what they're missing. My wife and I recently met a man who looked 60, in great shape--erect, square shouldered, no limping, no shuffling. I asked him his age. He was 83. He and his wife work out 5 days a week, two days with a personal trainer. Exercise is all plusses”.] I have done aerobic exercise of one form or an other for many years and at present find that walking up to twenty miles a week up and down hills listening to music while doing so, as the most satisfying. My wife does not like walking of this kind and is recovering from a major operation, so does not accompany me. She is not one to keep up any exercise regimen for very long. [“One last suggestion--YOGA. Anybody can do it. There are many types. You just want one devoted to exercise. Its primary benefit is that is works all the small muscles in the joints so that as we age we maintain flexibility. Old people who are stiff have let the muscles in their joints atrophy. Yoga is an ideal hobby. As for battle stations, A battle of words won't mean much if it costs the battle of the body and mind.Thanks for the further thoughts on fitness and suggestions” ] The recommendation of Yoga, is something that I should adopt, as although aerobic exercise keeps some muscles in tact, it doesn’t use them all and I could stand to be more supple. As for the actual thread, I have become tired of the whole thing and will be reducing my input as I seek other alternatives to occupy my time.

Joeanna Nee on "Independence Day!"

Joeanna Nee — Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:54:07 +0100

Dear Ttrryosborn, Since you brought it back up, where is your source material to back your claim that she plagarized the story? Hopefully, you arent using her small absence as proof, since you disappeared as well. Hardly proof. I havent encountered such a story, as of yet. You really should call her by her proper name sir, for you have not established quilt. You dont agree with her views and that is fine, but to accuse someone of an illegal act requires proof.

Ttrryosborn on "Independence Day!"

Ttrryosborn — Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:03:38 +0100

huck, "Throwing accusations..."? It is done with abandon by everyone on OD with every post. You'll notice that I only RESPOND to the accusations of OTHERS. Those accusations are always about the US. They're always negative. They use mostly OPINIONS drawn from other sources and present them as FACTs on OD. It would be fair if people acknowledged that. NeoP? She is female. She does steal other people's thunder without attribution and she did plagiarize her Celia "tale". I pointed it out at the time. Several built on it. NeoP then chose to drop out which fueled speculation. Why did people make such a heavy emotional investment in it, I'm not sure. Other faux pas' come and go on OD all the time. Why are you making such a heavy emotinal investment? People call me vulgar names all the time and I don't care. You come to "hear and learn" on OD? You came to the wrong place. People come here to "badmouth" Bush and Blair. They don't want the "hear" or "learn" anything else.Again, they do it with opinion pieces, cherry-picked stories, exaggerations, spin and conjecture.They come here to hear others do the same. I and Others point this out. People being "obsessives..."? I have read people's wild theories and ideas for years--long before the internet. Back then, they used pamphlets. I have read ultras of every stripe. They all act in a similar PATTERN. My best definition of this pattern is "a heavy emotional investment in a belief which leads people to hear and say only that which reinforces their belief and ignore anything which doesn't" That pattern is evident on OD and most other website which talk about politics. The only thing you'll really learn here is this PATTERN. You'd do well to recognize it and avoid it. You don't want to become obsessive too.

Ttrryosborn on "Independence Day!"

Ttrryosborn — Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:18:53 +0100

brolly, I am in the same boat as you. I sold a family business that I grew up in. The time was right and the offer was extremely good. I have spent a year looking at a new venture, or investment, without success. Income property in California is very high, it has become minus-income property. with 30% down, one would still have to collect every rent on time and have no unexpected expenses to break even for the years it would take to pay off-- all things which are unlikely to happen. I saw friends overpay in a similar market 15 years ago. Property values AND RENTS dropped which forced them to walk away. I do not want to start a new business from scratch at my age. It would take too long to pay off. I am looking at existing businesses to buy. There are plenty of brokers to go through. However, most people lie about their businesses, or expect too much. A business is worth 18-24 months profit plus FFE and inventory. I have missed a few good buys and I'm looking at a few more now. So far, I have looked at everything from gas stations to scuba equipment. You're right about inactivity putting off your stride. I have done temporary management for friends to keep busy until I find the right opportunity. Finding something to do which gives one peace of mind is allot easier said than done. One more suggestion about sleeping is EXERCISE-- especially cardio exercise. Nothing helps more to lower blood pressure and tension. After two weeks you'll feel like you can handle pressure under any circumstances. More importantly, it allows you to sleep all night. If you're married, you can both do it. It is wonderful to have something positive to do with your spouse. If it's not a burden, invest in a personal trainer for yourself and your wife. They will give a great start into good health. Trainers are the best money you'll ever spend.As for gyms, many in the US offer group exercise classes which you can take together. Hopefully, gyms in the UK offer them as well. If you stick with that you'll meet allot of people with the same positive attitudes toward health. Cardio exercise classes are especially fun. We meet nice people in them all the time who complain their spouses don't want to come. They don't know what they're missing. My wife and I recently met a man who looked 60, in great shape--erect, square shouldered, no limping, no shuffling. I asked him his age. He was 83. He and his wife work out 5 days a week, two days with a personal trainer. Exercise is all plusses. One last suggestion--YOGA. Anybody can do it. There are many types. You just want one devoted to exercise. Its primary benefit is that is works all the small muscles in the joints so that as we age we maintain flexibility. Old people who are stiff have let the muscles in their joints atrophy. Yoga is an ideal hobby. As for battle stations, A battle of words won't mean much if it costs the battle of the body and mind.

brolly3 on "Independence Day!"

brolly3 — Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:53:15 +0100

Ttrrosorn, Thanks for the detailed and well meant advice on the need to deal with insomnia and ways to tackle it. I am quite sure this was a sincere effort and I appreciate it. I will certainly take note of the suggestions and put them into practice.So tongiht I will be making a start and will sign off shortly. As a matter of fact I am not obsessed by OD. It merely provides me with an oportunity to engage in discussion, albeit heated, on a particular controversy that I find of interest. I am well aware that it is of no serious signficance and is a form of 'crossfire' that has only a small followiing. I haven't got much to do at the present and I am looking at some business possibilities to draw me away from the relatively relaxed and lazy daily routine that I currently follow. I have no pressing need to do much for income, so it is even harder to get into my former business stride than ever before. I am also looking at the alternative of taking up some hobby. I must first overcome the inertia I have allowed to develop. After this short peaceful interluse, I am sure we will return to our battle stations. I am reminded of the Western Front at Christmas 1914, when both the German and British troops somehow wandered into an informal truce on Christmas Eve, when they swopped cigarettes and tobacco and alchohol, as well as chat, and actually played football in No Mans Land along quite a long stretch of the front. After a time they wished each other well and eventually returned to their own lines. The following day it was business as usual with gunfire issuing from both sides.

huck on "Independence Day!"

huck — Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:24:37 +0100

terry Thank you for your appreciation of my ego. Throwing accusations around is all too easy. If you made assertions like this in print as a journalist, you would end up in court sooner or later being sued by someone with enough money to spend, and the onus would be on you to provide proof. You have had ample time to supply it. You haven’t done so. How would you like it if I accused you of something, kept on building on it with more & more badmouthing, but never provided any evidence? When Neocynic posted his / her [unlike you I have not assumed a gender] tale, I had no knowledge on which to base a judgement as to whether it was true or not. I took it at face value. You then weighed in and others, taking your word that your accusation was true, also steamed in with abuse & vitriol. The “liar fraud & hypocrite” was a direct quote lifted from a post by someone else & was previously directed at Neocynic. I, like others readers I’m sure, awaited your link to the parent story. It would certainly be an interesting development if Neocynic was shown to have stolen it and would totally colour any further posts by him / her. If it was shown to be true, I doubt if Neocynic would be back. Or at least he / she would have had to change name. By not providing any evidence, not only have you shown yourself in your true colours, you have also misled the guys who were on your side & who weighed in on your behalf. I notice none of them have contributed recently. Personally, I come hear to learn & hear views from around the world. OK, on this forum it’s mainly Europe / US. I know there’s going to be people out there whose views I don’t agree with but that’s the reality we live with in this world - might as well read some of it. It ain’t gonna go away. Plus, to paraphrase others, to indulge myself and waste time. I actually bother to follow many of the links posted to articles whether they’re posted by pro or anti. Sure, I have a viewpoint, but which of us hasn’t? You seem to have to pigeonhole others as ‘obessive’ ‘haters’ ‘plagiarist’ ‘lefties’ or whatever. If you can make a derogatory remark about someone you’ve never met, you will. The only criteria is they have to have a view you don’t like. Do you think the general tenor of your posts will change anybody’s mind? One more time: YOUR ACCUSATION HAS NOT BEEN SHOWN TO HAVE ANY FACTUAL BASIS. In fact you have made no effort to. What do you think that tells us about you? I guess what I am wondering is - why exactly do you come here?

Ttrryosborn on "Independence Day!"

Ttrryosborn — Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:46:45 +0100

brolly, "Insomnia"? "4a.m."? Seriously, if you're waking up in the middle of the night and finding that your minds races, if it keeps you from getting back to sleep, STOP IT WHATEVER IT TAKES. Lack of sleep is not worth the long term affects. I watched my own father sleep three hours, wake up, worry about things, watch movies til 5 a.m. and sleep another hour before getting up. It contributed to an early death. I started to do the same thing. I use to worry and obsess and wake up in the middle of the night to do it some more. I said STOP. I learned to get a full night's sleep EVERY NIGHT and I don't mean with drugs, I did it on-the-natch. You have to TRAIN YOURSELF to sleep all night. Get yourself into a state-of-mind which is free of worries--financial, personal and POLITICAL. Leave the day behind when you get home. I used to leave notes at work about what to do the next day and drop work from my mind by the time I got home. Never do work at home IN THE EVENING. If you must take work home, go to bed early and get up early to tackle it with a cup of coffee. Work before bed will keep you mind too active to sleep properly. Don't get involved in things that may upset you, or prey on the mind when you get home. Relax, be entertained, enjoy friends, or family. Avoid anything which may wake you up in the middle of the night-- food, drink,whatever For example,if you get up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom and can't go back to sleep because now your mind is awake, don't drink anything 4 hours before bed. Stop reading anything inflammatory which may pre-occupy you and keep you awake. You may think "being informed" or "being enlightened" is important. Compared to health and well-being, it's nothing. No one reads this website beyond the same FEW old names. Trading barbs with us means nothing compared to getting a good night's sleep. One good trick, stop reading the same newspaper. They're designed to upset people. Read them on Sunday when you have all day. Just because you cut back on reading, don't think you're abandoning a cause. We can be well-informed without constantly obsessing. I have the advantage of reading this sight in California which is nine hours behind England. I sometimes read it after a movie, or I'm waiting up. I NEVER obsess with it. I never let it keep me from getting 8 hours sleep. I am asleep five minutes after clicking off and I never wake up thinking about it. A good night's sleep gives me a sharper mind than any newspaper, TV broadcast, or website.

brolly3 on "Independence Day!"

brolly3 — Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:40:20 +0100

Ttrryosborn N, I'm not obsessed by OD. I have insomnia and OD is the only sleeping potion that works, after a time. Besides it's more entertaining than watching TV all night.

Independence Day!,

Neocynic — Sun, 26 Jun 2005 02:20:45 +0100

Independence Day arrived early this year for my next-door neighbour, Celia. It arrived in the guise of two Army uniforms with The Letter from the Secretary of Defense bearing the bad news that her husband had been killed this week in Iraq. Whereas for the nation, this July 4th will be a celebration of the principles as enshrined in our Declaration of Independance, for Celia, her Independace Day will be a time of mourning, for a death delivered in their defense. I doubt we'll be seeing Celia at any of our July 4th functions. The last we saw of her and her children were their backs as they walked out on the funeral for a father and a husband just after Celia was presented with the flag from her husband's coffin, she threw it to the ground and stepped on it. Read the rest of this post...