open Democracy News Analysis - This is turning into a mutated Vietnam, - Comments

Joeanna Nee on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Joeanna Nee — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:38:24 +0000

only when theres a bush family reunion, and Im not talking about the baked bean guy with his trusted dog duke!:)

Matt Murrell on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Matt Murrell — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:29:11 +0000

Given that chili is the official dish of the State of Texas, perhaps it's time to roll out the B52 bombers again? Could we nuke Texas in order to save it?

Joeanna Nee on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Joeanna Nee — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:21:29 +0000

chili is now communist? what about salsa? what is the world coming too????? *sob*

Matt Murrell on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Matt Murrell — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 11:45:59 +0000

Communising chili? Those rat-b*st*rds!

sorcha.murphy on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

sorcha.murphy — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 10:44:33 +0000

Ttrryosborn, you realise that there is a difference between chili and Chile, I hope.

Ttrryosborn on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Ttrryosborn — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 02:15:04 +0000

Matt, "Let me get this straight..." If only you would. Should US involvement in Chili be ignored? no should US involvement in Chili be exaggerated? no Should the role of Chileans in their own affairs be minimized? no What should we do? Why not ask questions? Why was the US involved in South America? Let's answer that with another question. Why was England involved in Europe's affairs for hundreds of years. From the Middle Ages to Napoleon to the Kaiser to Hitler, why did she play one European power against another? SECURTIY. England did not want one power to dominate the continent and threaten England's security. Did England have a right to security? It did if you ask an Englishman. Does the US has the right to security? It does if you ask an American. What threatened America's security? Soviet communism and Soviet nuclear missles. They threatened the US and the free world. What was the result of this threat? THE COLD WAR. How did South America figure in the Cold War? Fidel Castro seized power in Cuba ( He was the Pinochet of l959) and allowed Soviet nuclear missles to be placed 90 seconds from the US. The result was the Cuban Missle Crisis. Did the US want to stop Soviet communism and nuclear missles from spreading in South America? Yes. Did they have a right to stop communism and nuclear missles in South America? Did England have the right to stop Napoleon's march in Europe? Was Allende a Marxist? Yes, he said so. Did he want to nationalise industry and agriculture in Chili? Yes. Did he want to open friendly relations with communist countries? Yes. Did he have opposition within Chili? Yes from the middle class, the professional class, white collar workers, store owners, industrialists, estate owners, labor unions and military officers. Did RICHARD NIXON start the campaign against Allende in the US? NO. President Kennedy (who stopped the missles in Cuba) began US support for the Allende opposition. Kennedy supplied money to Christian Democrats and other anti-Allende groups. By the time Nixon came into office the situation in Chili had already polarized. I have already written about Allende's years in office. One thing overlooked was that Chili depended allot on US loans. The US was not obligated to make loans to a communist. Instead it offered support to labor unions, the press and the military. They were all anxious to get rid of Allende. The US did not have to convince anybody to take their aid. Allende did that himself. Allende went down the path of communizing Chili by illegal means in the face of widespread opposition by the people. If his hands were as clean as you like to imagine, the coup would never have succeeded.

Matt Murrell on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Matt Murrell — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:58:43 +0000

Maz2003, Stiglitz is an interesting writer. If you really want a good insight into the workings of economic policy I'd recommend JK Galbraith's 'The Affluent Society' and 'A History of Economics: The Past as The Present' Never got into 'Yes, Minister'? And you expect me to take your political views serious? The third series is probably the best, and it's in the HMV sale at the moment.

maz2003 on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

maz2003 — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:07:54 +0000

I'm afraid I have long since stopped trying to get to the end of another book before I start another. Haven't picked Curtis up for at least a week. I've become engrossed in a true account of imprisonment under Sadat's regime, [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /0520088883/qid=1125673447/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/ 103-2383654-2539064?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]Memoirs from the Women's Prison[/url] by Nawal El Sa'adawi. And I'm finally reading Globalization and its discontents which really exposes the reality of the hypocrisy at the center of so-called free market ideologists who are anything but. I never got into Yes Minister. Maybe I should give it another go. I'm sure Ebay will have it on DVD.

Matt Murrell on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Matt Murrell — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 22:07:14 +0000

Maz2003, The more I read about our government, the more cynical I become. Wait until you get to "The Threat of Democracy". All US and UK foreign policy past and present makes sense after that. "The Single-Ideology State" chapter is also good. Not so much an eye-opener, more just for crystallizing what you already suspected. His follow up "Unpeople" is currently in the pile of books I have waiting to be read. Short of watching the entire series of "Yes, Minister" I can't think of a better way of finding out how British democracy works. Andrew Rawnsley's "Servants of the People" and John Kampfner's "Blair's Wars" are also well worth reading. Unless you still want to believe in the concept of Western democracy, then perhaps a little Thomas Friedman is in order. "I was having a conversation with the Prime Minister of Malaysia when he mentioned that the left-hand button of his mouse didn't work. This caused me to realise that the entire economic problems of East Asia can be solved by..."

maz2003 on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

maz2003 — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:28:02 +0000

I'm reading that at the moment (amongst other things). I am up to the stuff about the overt financial and political support for Putin whilst knowledge of the barbaric atrocities in Chechnya were well known within the cabinet. This was well before the Beslan tragedy. I saw a documentary about the children from there the other day. What struck me most was the directing of their grief towards revenge and the desire to kill terrorists. This is obviously something that has been imbibed from adults around them. And so the cycle continues. The more I read Curtis's book the more a kind of sickening disbelief takes hold, and the more any perception I had of the quality of our democracy, the freedom of information, and the soundness of our government disintegrates. It seems, at the time when Blair was cosying up to Putin, sufficient analysis and scrutiny was simply not levied from inside or outside the government, and thus we can assume the same continues to be the case. Our governments, as we speak, are blindly cutivating the seeds of another Beslan, another twin towers, another No. 30 double decker bus.

Matt Murrell on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Matt Murrell — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:22:11 +0000

Brolly, Thank you. If you want a detailed account of Britain's role in the whole sorry affair I'd recommend Mark Curtis's "Web of Deceit". In fact the book is highly recommended for a well researched account of British foreign policy past and present overall.

brolly3 on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

brolly3 — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:43:57 +0000

Matt Murrell, ["My argument is clear: The US encouraged the overthrow of a democratically elected leader, then supported the murderous dictator that replaced him".] Yes, it is perfectly clear and sustained by the facts you have quoted. This will not deter Ttrryosborn from dodging the issue, it never has done!

Matt Murrell on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Matt Murrell — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:01:33 +0000

Ttrryosborn, Let met get this straight, you're argument is that US involvement in should Chile should be ignored because evenst were going to happen anyway? So trying to kill an already dying person is legally and morally okay in your book? Allende: "the madness of South American politics?" Nice to see you're not engaging in blanket stereotypes. According to the Church Report: "Chile's history has been one of remarkable continuity in civilian, democratic rule. From independence in 1818 until the military coup d'etat of September 1973, Chile underwent only three brief interruptions of its democratic tradition." Perhaps you could be more specific about "the chaos", and "The reaction from the left AND the right?". All the reports from the time (and after) state that Chile was remarkably stable. The CIA had remarkable trouble trying to get a coup off the ground. They failed more than once. According to British intelligence reports, and statements from the then UK ambassador, the lot of the average Chilean improved under Allende. That's what made him so dangerous. Allende ran the country through a coalition government. The Unity Party actually increased it's percentage of the votes over it's first term. The gripe with Blair is that his party has a disproportionate number of seats in the House of Commons compared with it's percentage of the vote. They form a majority, which means coalition government is unnecessary. Yet, more people voted Conservative than Labour. None of which is relevant to Chile. Political donations: The Red Cross? Imagine if the Chinese secret service had provided billions to John Kerry. If they'd placed anti-Bush stories into the media. Rigged opinion polls. Now imagine that they'd encouraged a military coup once Bush had won, while doing all they could to wreak your economy. And you whine because the Red Cross made donations? The economy: Quite how expropriation carried out under congressional law can be illegal is a little beyond me. Are you suggesting that 40 year old legislation is invalid? In which case you oppose the US Constitution? Spare me if I shed few tears for landowners who gained and consolidated their wealth under a dictatorship. Besides, US documents make no mention of Chileans as justification for their actions. The scale of nationalisation was far below that of post-war Britain as well, with companies compensated for their losses. The average Chilean saw their lot improve under Allende. Despite inflation. Which history clearly shows wasn't his fault. "Your assertion that the Chileans somehow danced to an American tune and that nothing was wrong is absurd." Perhaps that's why I've never made it. My argument is clear: The US encouraged the overthrow of a democratically elected leader, then supported the murderous dictator that replaced him.

Ttrryosborn on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

Ttrryosborn — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 02:10:01 +0000

Matt, You want to"focus" on US involvement with Allende and Chili? That's your problem. You focus ONLY on the US role in CHILI'S problems to the exclusion of the CHILIEANS themselves. Doesn't that seem odd? To discuss any event ACCURATELY, one must discuss ALL the players. To do any less is just an exercise in propoganda. You're just feeding your own anti-American fantasies. "Blame"? Others have written that there was plenty of blame to go around. Sorry you missed my post which statd that. Why do you "focus" on the US? Their's was a minor role in the chaos. What about the madness of South American politics? What was the state of politics in Chili when Allende was elected by 36%? What about the Socialists? What about Allende's usurpation of power? What of the chaos? What of 500% inflation? What of The reaction from the left AND the right? What about the army? Allende's election margin? Thank you for finally getting to Allende's margin of victory. I infer from that that claims about Blair's re-election by the same margin being "unfair and Unjust" are now dead. I have stated that I'm not an expert in British politics, but didn't Blair form a majority in Parliament with other parties also? "The level of unrest in Chili exaggerated? I am recounting the written history of events. If Allende was on such firm ground in the congress, why did he use an old law written in l932 from a previous republic to expropriate private property (US and Chilean) instead of getting approval from HIS supporters in the existing congress? Doesn't sound like a man who had faith in the democratic process. The Socialists convinced him to go around the congress in order to buy loyalty from their supporters and to screw the middle class. How hard it is to understand? US contributions to political parties in Chili? Were contributions illegal in Chili? How much money did the Chilean Socialists get from abroad? In the US, foreign contributions to political parties happen all the time. Many high-ranking members of the International Red Cross made large campaign contributions to the Kerry campaign in order to defeat Bush-- something which tarnished their reputation for impartiality. Shall we condemn the Red Cross? When Allende illegally seized private US (and Chilean) property and distributed it to the masses who voted for him he basically declared economic war on his own middle class. I've written about this already. His thievery plunged the country into chaos. How can you say 500% inflation is an overstatement? Maybe you've never been in a situation where you have to face losing EVERYTHING you spent your life accumulating. Where do you get the moral authority to pass judgement? Wait until 500% inflation wipes out your life savings overnight and see if you don't want someone to blame. Such catastrophes have led to similar political upheavals which had nothing to do with the US. Can't you guess a few? That's why historian wrote there was plenty of blame to go around. Your assertion that the Chileans somehow danced to an American tune and that nothing was wrong is absurd. IF Allende had expropriated Chilean Businesses and estates only and left American businesses untouched, he would have still had the economic upheavals and a coup.

brolly3 on "This is turning into a mutated Vietnam"

brolly3 — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:45:41 +0000

Matt Murrell, A superlative response to Ttrryosborn. You have hit the nail on the head when you directed Ttrry's attention to US involvement as being the core issue. Ttrry will not take any account of the figures you gave to support the legitimacy of Allende's election. You already explained to him in a previous post the difference between the widespread feeling that our first past the post system is felt to be unfair to so many millions of voters and can be justifiably criticised and disinguished this with the interference of the US in chilean affairs. This did not stop him from side stepping the main issue. Ask him to answer a question and he levels another one at you instead. I suppose this is a debating style of sorts but not one that I like.

This is turning into a mutated Vietnam,

Joeanna Nee — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:39:06 +0000

Apparently, Cindy Sheehan has returned to Crawford Texas (The new Camp David?) and the news is reporting a group to camp across from hers are families that support the war. Hmmmm.... is any of this sounding familiar? The opposition of the Vietnam war crept up slowly, until there was wide scale protests, then violence, chaos a loss of an era, actually. My dad served, drafted but did his duty. He got spit on when he came home, forgotten later which made my education of the trauma of wars of this type causes and really added to the joyous memories I have of my childhood. What are we going to have left for money to help these people when they get home? What plans have been made to get our people out without the crushing defeat feeling that many veterans had about Vietnam? And is it just me, or does it seem like Bush wants to get in every little war he can before his term is up? Let pray Jeb stays down in Florida. Food for thought.