open Democracy News Analysis - REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS, - Comments

Brendan 2 on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

Brendan 2 — Fri, 20 Jul 2007 21:03:04 +0100

Hi zawa-je, Thanks for your patience and reminder that I had not responded. I did this as quickly as I could so I may edit it later for clarity. I tried to address the important parts. The key to this is that, although some things are indeed unkowable, it does not mean we should accept any particular explanation of things. Not the explanation you choose to believe or the explanation that is still inconclusive that I favour. There is an important distinction that needs to be made however. It is a fallicy to claim that because we cannot prove that miracles do not exist, or never happened that they must be true. It is simply beyond knowing and therefor not worth arguing about. For the sake of this discussion, naturalism can be classified into two types: metaphysical and methodological. Metaphysical (or ontological or anti-teleological) naturalism asserts that there is nothing in the universe but chance and necessity. In this worldview, science relies on chance and necessity only, because nature itself constitutes a self-contained reality that exists, subsists, and operates solely on the basis of deterministic and non-deterministic laws. If one were to believe that the universe did not follow an immutable (or nearly so) set of laws, then one would also necessarily believe that science is pointless, since the purpose of science is to try to figure out the laws by which the universe operates. If science has provided us with valuable information about ourselves and the world, and the universe in fact, it cannot be dismissed so easily. Simply put, if you believe that God is outside of the natural laws we perceive, you are free to believe it but you will never, ever prove it. On the other hand, as scientists explore further out into space and further into theories of matter, they may indeed find a plausible explanation for our existence and the existence of the universe. You can never achieve proof; naturalists can keep on trying to achieve proof. Methodological (or pragmatic) naturalism, on the other hand, “pretends” that there is nothing but chance and necessity, for the purpose of advancing science and our understanding of nature in a coherent and systematic way. It is clear that metaphysical naturalism ensues when one adopts methodological naturalism in addition to the belief that nature is the ultimate reality, and that science can explain everything. That’s nonsense. I will let the definition speak to how questionable this statement is and how the it is clear that metaphysical naturalism never ensues when one adopts methodological naturalism with the belief that nature is the ultimate reality.

Quote:

Methodological naturalism contrasted with metaphysical naturalism Metaphysical naturalism, which is often called "philosophical naturalism" or "ontological naturalism", takes an ontological approach to naturalism. Ontology is a branch of metaphysics that studies being, and so this is the view that the supernatural does not exist, thus entailing strong atheism. In contrast, methodological naturalism is, in the words of Steven D. Schaphersman, "the adoption or assumption of philosophical naturalism within scientific method with or without fully accepting or believing it … science is not metaphysical and does not depend on the ultimate truth of any metaphysics for its success (although science does have metaphysical implications), but methodological naturalism must be adopted as a strategy or working hypothesis for science to succeed. We may therefore be agnostic about the ultimate truth of naturalism, but must nevertheless adopt it and investigate nature as if nature is all that there is."

But can it? Science does have its metaphysics and its own assumptions and beliefs that are taken for granted. There is no example provided here. All scientific understanding is subject to the methodical process of testing a hypothesis; it may make assumptions in order to test a hypothesis but makes no universal assumptions that could never be proven incorrect. Religion does make assumptions and make claims that have been proven incorrect, for example that the universe is 6,000 years old, which is verifiably false. If there is a ‘creator’ who existed before the universe it is billions of years old. This is an error of fact by 1,000,000 times. It is hard to give it much credence, it's just not even close. These beliefs, such as the belief in the uniformity of nature, the comprehensibility of the universe, and causality, are very reasonable but they cannot be “proved” in a strict sense. Many scientists look down on religion, because religion involves belief, not realizing that they themselves have their own biases and beliefs. This is a nice bit of rhetoric that falls apart on closer inspection. There is no ‘belief’ in the uniformity of nature, nor is it required. Scientists make a distinction that religious people do not; between what is not yet know and what is unknowable. Even if we agree that there are unknowns, it is still not logically valid to conclude from this that any particular explanation must be true. What this person seems to be arguing is that because we cannot provide an adequate evolutionary (or any naturalistic) explanation for the complexity we see in life, it must have been deliberately created by higher intelligence – or god. This is an argument from ignorance. A=don't know, does not mean, b=true, and as long as A keeps gaining knowledge while B sits around keeping ‘faithful’, it is in fact more logical to assume that A will eventually arrive at the correct answer as B never will. A quick glance at how scientific theories are confirmed reveals that science is far from providing absolute certainty. … I adopt the middle position that recognizes the limitations of science but, at the same time, acknowledges the utmost importance of science as a superb source of knowledge about ourselves and our world. Bravo. At least the speaker is not crazy and realizes the value of searching for deeper truth through the scientific method. The Demise of Naturalism However, there would seem to be some very bad news emerging for the naturalists. Science, which they used to see as their main instrument and ally, has turned against them in recent decades. The more we learn about the natural world, the more we come to realize that what might be legitimately termed “miracles” really happened in the past. One big nail in the coffin of naturalism has been the Big Bang theory, which showed that the universe had a beginning. The discovery of a genesis of the natural world was a major blow to atheists such as Carl Sagan, who used to reiterate the naturalist dogma, “The cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be,” as if it were a scientific fact, in his TV series Cosmos, which was nothing more than atheist indoctrination. This bit is ironic. Methodological naturalism is the study of the natural universe and looks to explain the observable using natural laws. It is not an ideology that sets out to deny the supernatural; rather it looks for, and tests things and arrives at theories such as the ‘big bang’ from an evidential perspective even if there are miraculous implications. How this is signifies the ‘demise of naturalism’ is really unclear. If observing the natural order arrives at a super natural conclusion, well it would have done so with through the use of falsifiable evidence. If it turns out that there is another, more convincing or probable explanation in the mean time we should be interested in what is most likely until proven otherwise. A second big nail has been the Anthropic Principle, as scientists call it. This means that virtually all the constants of the physical world, including the structure of our galaxy or the Solar System, are constructed in the best possible way to accommodate human life. This “fine-tuning” of the universe speaks for a supernatural design and intervention in the natural world—a more technical definition of what we call a “miracle.” No it doesn’t “speak for a supernatural design and intervention in the natural world”. It can be used to make that assertion because it is un-falsifiable but it is just as easy to say that life is fine-tuned to the universe we live in. If universal properties were different, then maybe life would be different and have different properties. We don’t know until we visit another universe. If is unknowable it therefore doesn’t concern naturalism, or at least methodological naturalism in any direct sense. Hardly a ‘nail in the coffin.’ Yet a third big nail in naturalism’s coffin has been the discovery of greater and deeper complexities of life. These complexities refute the widespread myth that Darwinism is an adequate explanation of the origin and diversity of life on earth. That’s why the late Francis Crick, an atheist and co-discoverer of DNA, had to use the “M-word” when he declared, “the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going.” First off, as far as I know, Darwinism isn’t an explanation for the ‘origins’ of life; it is the theory of natural selection that explains the observation of evolution. Evolution is not a theory; it is an observed fact that is explained by natural and group selection. The merits of the theory of natural selection are always open to dispute, but the ‘deeper complexities of life’ have no bearing on it, though they may contribute toward supporting or refuting it scientifically. Once again this represents an argument from ignorance where the speaker claims that if there is no scientific explanation of the origins of life then the religious explanation must, by default, be true. In fact the religious claims also need to have evidence to be taken seriously or they simply fail based on the clearly erroneous story (or parable) used to make their case for the miracle of creation. The more we learn about the natural world, the more naturalism looks incredible and miracles look factual. Miracles can never ‘look’ factual as they are either un-falsifiable, or, in many claimed instances, miracles are simply false. See above. The most recent and spectacular testimony to this fact has been the conversion of arch-atheist Anthony Flew to theism. At age 81, after decades of fierce atheism, Anthony Flew has concluded, “some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe.” He added, “A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature.” The author has obviously not been kept up to date on Anthony Flew. He is no longer a believer in intelligent design. Flew says that science has now provided to him a very plausible natural explanation for the origin of life without invoking any supernatural creators. I'll have to look it up and provide a link later. no time right now. In closing, watch this video of Richard Dawkins as he answers similar questions on origins of life based on probability. Note that he finds no current scientific explanation absolutely convincing but that they are many times more likely than the idea of a creator who is outside of the natural order of things and already existed as an intelligent being. Where did he come from if existence must be created, who then created god??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSbDUCCjrE4 Thanks for your patience, and as I said I might edit this to be a bit more orderly, I'll add some links to things that I have read to come to my present understanding, or lack of understanding soon. Have a nice weekend.

Jessica Reed on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

Jessica Reed — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:31:44 +0100

Dear Zawa-je,

I have already pointed this to other members in the forums, but here goes: should you want to post extracts or articles on the openDemocracy forums, you can only post a couple of paragraphs, along with the name of the author and a link to the document online. Unless the article in question is under Creative Commons license, it is copyrighted, and reproduction is not allowed.Posts which are not respecting those rules shall be 1. edited and cut down or 2. deleted.

Furthermore, and like eric_5 said, it would be appreciated if those posts were not simply material copied and pasted without any explanation or context. If those texts were discussed or explained, it would encourage debate and discussion between forum members.

Thank you - any question please let me know by e-mail or private message.

Best,

Jessica

- oD moderator

eric_5 on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

eric_5 — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 23:16:01 +0100

Dear Zawa-je, Your habit of posting lengthy extracts from various pro-Muslim authors is an abuse of this forum. This is a forum for debate, not a site for the distribution of propaganda.

zawa-je on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

zawa-je — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:52:40 +0100

Islam And Darwinism By: Prof. Maqsood Jafri Islam believes in the theory of of creation and Darwinists believe in the Theory of Evolution. In this article briefly it is discussed that the life on earth is created by God; it is not accidental or by chance. The atheists and the materialists negate the existence of God and consider human life and even mind to be a form of matter. Darwin’s theory of Evolution has influenced the minds of people and their character has been influenced as well. Such people do not believe in divine morals and values. They do not believe in God, soul and Hereafter. Islam says that God has created this universe and Humans with a specified goal. In Sura the Heifer in verse 117 the Quran says: “To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: when He decrees a matter, He says to it: “Be”, and it is.” Similarly in Sura Yasin in verse no. 82 the Quran announces: “Verily, when He intends a thing, His command is, “Be”; and it is”. The Quran has used two words for creation “Khalaq” and “Amr”. “Amr” is immediate command and immediate creation. Suppose about the creation of soul the Quran says: They ask you about soul, say; the soul is the command of my Lord” – All humans and the cosmos has been regarded as “Khalq”. The man comes in to being through a proper natural system. Without sexual intercourse and conception no life can take shape. But when the Quran refers about the birth of Jesus Christ; it is not natural or usual way of birth. It is through special command. Similarly the mothers of Yahya and Ishmael had gone old and barren and could not produce children. But the Quran mentions about their birth through special command. The natural laws and usual system of creation is regarded as Khalq. Hence the Quran in Sura Al-Imran in verse 190 says; “Behold! In the creation of heavens and the earth, and the alternation of Night and Day – there are indeed signs for men of understanding.” There are many verses in the Quran dealing with the subject of creation. Then there is also the concept of evolutionary process in creation but it is not in Darwinian sense but in the sense of developing stages of cosmos. The Quran in Sura The Height in verse 54 announces; “Your Guardian – Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days.” Then in Sura “the cattle” in verse 2 the Quran says; “He it is who created you from clay; and then decreed a stated term) for you). An there is in His presence another determined term; yet you doubt within yourselves”. The six days and stated term indicate the process and stages of creation by God. The creation of the universe in six days is the Biblical concept as well. Man is the blend of Matter and Soul. When God created Adam out of clay he infused his spirit in it. The Quran very explicitly narrates the story of the creation of Adam. The materialists do not believe in creation and spirit and regard the universe only the product of blind material forces. Now let us discuss what Darwin propounded. Darwinism bases on materialism. The ancient Greek materialists like Democritus believed in Evolutionary Naturalism. Besides the British scientist Charles Robert Darwin (1809 – 1882) and the British philosopher Herbert Spencer (1820 – 1903), a number of other eminent philosophers supported the theory of evolution. Hegel’s theory of cosmic evolution is its offshoot. Nietzsche applied the concept of evolution to ethical theory. Karl Marx and Engels adopted it to socio – political philosophy. Thomas Henry Huxlay humanized it. Henri Bergson became one of its most influential exponents and Samuel Alexander developed it into his novel theory of emergent evolution. French Zoologist Jean de Lamarck (1744 – 1829), in 1809 presented his pioneering theory of evolution. Charles Darwin, in his “The Origin of Species” 1859) and “The Descent of Man” 1871), presented his theory of evolution. He presented the theory of the Mechanism of Natural Selection or survival of the fittest. Darwinism maintains that living things were not created but came into being by chance. Darwinism, materialism and communism believe in matter not in spirit. Darwin himself regarded his theory based on assumptions. Darwinism has been scientifically rejected. The defeat of Darwinism in the faces of science can be reviewed under three basic topics: 1- The Darwinism theory cannot scientifically explain how life originated on Earth. 2- No scientific finding shows that the “evolutionary mechanism” proposed by the theory have any evolutionary power at all. 3- The fossil record provided proves the exact opposite of what the theory suggests. The evolutionists’ claim that the universe started from “first atom” and life started from “first cell”. Who created the atom and cell, the evolutionists cannot answer. Inanimate matter must have produced a living cell as a result of coincidence in the belief of the evolutionists. Modern biologists have rejected this claim. Life comes from life has been proved. The theory of “spontaneous generation”, which asserts that non-living materials came together to form living organism has been rejected. In a lecture at the Sorbonne in 1864, Pasteur said; “Never will the doctrine of spontaneous generation recover from the mortal blow struck by this simple experiment.” The great evolutionists like Russian biologist Alexander Oparin and American chemist Stanley Miller experimented to prove that a living cell could originate by coincidence but failed and they admitted their failure. Oparin in “Origin of Life” and Stanley Miller in “Molecular Evolution of life” discuss it in detail. Jeffery Bada in his book “Earth” admits: “we still face the biggest unsolved problem that we had when we entered the twentieth century: how did life originate on earth.” The conditions required for the formation of cell are too great in quantity to be explained away by coincidences. The DNA molecule is so complex that it cannot be accidental or coincidental. Mechanism of evolution has been also rejected. No deer becomes horse and no ape becomes man. It is a fallacious theory having no historical and scientific evidence. Lamarck and Darwin believed in the transferring of traits of one species to the other. They maintain that living creatures passed on the traits they acquired during lifetime to the next generation. Giraffes evolved from antelopes and bears transformed into whales. However, the laws of inheritance discovered by Gregor Mendel (1822 – 1884) and verified by the science of genetics have nullified the theory of evolutionary mechanism. Neo-Darwinism advances the Modern synthetic Theory”. Mutations, i.e.; genetic disorders do not cause living beings to develop on the contrary they are always harmful. The fossil record theory of Darwin, which was a basic contention, has been rejected on scientific grounds. According to this theory, every living species has sprung from a predecessor. No “Transitional Forms” have yet been uncovered. On the contrary, the British Paleontologist, Drerk v. Ager in “The Nature of the Fossil Record” admits that the fossil records shows not gradual evolution but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another. This is just the opposite of Darwin’s assumptions. Douglas J. Futuyma, an eminent evolutionist biologist in his book, “Science of Trail” announces organism as the creation of some omnipotent intelligence. Fossils show, writes Harun Yahua, in his book, “The Importance of Conscience in the Quran”, that living beings emerged fully developed and in a perfect state on the earth. That means, that the Origin of Species, contrary to Darwin’s suppositions, is not evolution, but creation.” On the wonders of creation the Quran in Sura Rehman aptly announces: “He has created man. He has taught him an intelligent speech.” Then in the same Sura in verse 13 God announce; “Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny.” (The writer is an eminent speaker and scholar and can be reached at maqsoodjafri@aol.com). Please report any broken links to Webmaster Copyright © 1988-2007 irfi.org. All Rights Reserved. Disclaimer

Brendan 2 on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

Brendan 2 — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:38:47 +0100

zawa-je, Thank you for responding to the point of discussion. I will of course ponder the points made and reply in due course. It encourages me that you wish to pursue the topic. Best, Brendan

zawa-je on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

zawa-je — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:45:47 +0100

“Indeed you stand on an exalted standard of character.” (Al-Qalam 68:4) Morality is an important aspect of Islam. In the Islamic terminology it is called “khuluq” and its plural is “akhlaq”. There are two aspects of a human being: one is “khalq” that is the physical aspect and the appearance. The other is “khuluq” and that is character, behavior and inner dispositions. Islam emphasizes that we take care of our physical appearance by keeping it clean, properly covered, healthy and nourished with Halal food and drinks. In a similar way it tells us that we should take care of our character and behavior. n ‘Abbas reports that the Prophet -peace be upon him- was the most generous person. He used to become even more generous in Ramadan. And Abu Dharr said that when he heard about the coming of the Prophet -peace be upon him- he said to his brother, ‘Go to this valley and hear his words.’ He returned and said to him, ‘I saw him commanding people about the noblest morals and manners.’ (Al-Bukhari) The Prophet was sent by Allah to teach the humanity the noblest morals (makarim al-akhlaq). He said, عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَكْمَلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِيمَانًا أَحْسَنُهُمْ خُلُقًا وَخِيَارُكُمْ خِيَارُكُمْ لِنِسَائِهِمْ خُلُقًا (الترمذى “The most perfect believer in faith is the one who is best in moral character. The best of you are those who are the best to their spouses in manners.” (al-Tirmidhi 1082) عَنْ عَائِشَةَ قَالَتْ سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ إِنَّ الْمُؤْمِنَ يُدْرِكُ بِحُسْنِ خُلُقِهِ دَرَجَاتِ قَائِمِ اللَّيْلِ صَائِمِ النَّهَارِ (مسند أحمد ‘Aishah -may Allah be pleased with her- said, “I heard the Prophet -peace be upon him- say, ‘Indeed the believer by his good morals reaches the ranks of those who spend the whole night in prayer and whole day in fasting. (Musnad Ahmad, 23219) عَنْ أَبِي الدَّرْدَاءِ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ مَا مِنْ شَيْءٍ يُوضَعُ فِي الْمِيزَانِ أَثْقَلُ مِنْ حُسْنِ الْخُلُقِ وَإِنَّ صَاحِبَ حُسْنِ الْخُلُقِ لَيَبْلُغُ بِهِ دَرَجَةَ صَاحِبِ الصَّوْمِ وَالصَّلَاةِ (الترمذي Abu al-Darda’ reports that I heard the Prophet -peace be upon him- say, “There is nothing in the Balance heavier than the good morals. Indeed the person of good morals will reach by them the rank of the person of fasts and prayers.” (al-Tirmidhi 1926) There are many Ahadith that indicate the high place of morals and manners in Islam. The good morals and manners should be observed in one’s personal life as well as in one’s relations with others. Some Ahadith on Islamic manners: عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ الْمُسْلِمُ مَنْ سَلِمَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ مِنْ لِسَانِهِ وَيَدِهِ وَالْمُهَاجِرُ مَنْ هَجَرَ مَا نَهَى اللَّهُ عَنْهُ )البخاري “The Muslim is he/she from whose hand and tongue other Muslims are safe and Muhajir is he/she who leaves what Allah has forbidden.” (al-Bukahri 9) حَدَّثَنَا قَتَادَةُ عَنْ أَنَسٍ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ لَا يُؤْمِنُ أَحَدُكُمْ حَتَّى يُحِبَّ لِأَخِيهِ مَا يُحِبُّ لِنَفْسِهِ (البخاري “None of you will be a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.” (al-Bukhari 12) عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ لَا يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ مَنْ لَا يَأْمَنُ جَارُهُ بَوَائِقَهُ (مسلم “He will not enter heaven whose neighbor is not safe from his troubles.” (Muslim 66) عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ الْإِيمَانُ بِضْعٌ وَسَبْعُونَ أَوْ بِضْعٌ وَسِتُّونَ شُعْبَةً فَأَفْضَلُهَا قَوْلُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَأَدْنَاهَا إِمَاطَةُ الْأَذَى عَنْ الطَّرِيقِ وَالْحَيَاءُ شُعْبَةٌ مِنْ الْإِيمَانِ (مسلم Faith has more than seventy branches (or he said more than sixty branches). The supreme branch is the statement that ‘There is no god except Allah’ and the lowest branch is the removal of obstacles from the path. The modesty is a branch of faith.” (Muslim 51) These issues are not small; they are very important. No macro change can come without the micro change. Bad manners have sometimes drastic social affects. Some of you may have heard of some interesting research on crime, called the “broken window” effect. Two researchers did the following test. They put one car in the poorer areas of New York, with the hood open. They put another car in a really affluent suburb in California. The car in New York got pulled to pieces within 24 hours. The car in California remained untouched for two weeks. Then one of the researchers smashed one window in the car and within a day, the car ended up like the one in New York. They concluded that by breaking the window on the car, they essentially marked the car as “neglected” and thus people thought of it as “fair game”, even though it was in a good neighbourhood. Similarly, the authors concluded, if you allow little things to get away, like the breaking of windows, unless the window gets fixed very soon, all the windows get smashed. Three years ago, in New York, they had a new police commissioner. He decided to implement this idea, by ensuring that the police no longer just attack the big issues, the homicides, the car stealings, the breaking and entering; but also the little things, like making sure streets were clean, fixing broken windows. The net effect? Crime rates in New York, formerly one of the world's crime centres, fell by almost one third in three years. Why does this work? By taking care of the little things, you give people a sense of security. We observe good morals and manners to obey Allah and His Messenger. This is part of our faith. Our faith leads to good morals and manners and they in their turn reinforce our faith. On the other hand, we should also keep in mind the best da’wah is to live among people with good morals and manners. Before listening to our message people see us and our behavior. Non-Muslims sometimes say when they see the bad example of Muslims, “If your religion has not made you a good person, how can it be a good religion for us.” We have a big responsibility and we must take our actions seriously. Allah says in the Qur’an, (O people! Be conscious of your Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women; be conscious of God, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for God ever watches over you.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 1) He also says, (O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full Knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things).) (Al-Hujurat 49: 13) 2. Religion is not just some rituals but it is building good conduct and good morals. It is to care for the poor and needy. It is to love our neighbors and be good to them. Allah says, (It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practise regular charity, to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 177) Also, He says, (Serve Allah, and make not any partners with Him in His divinity. Do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (you meet) and those whom your right hands possess (your workers): for Allah loves not the arrogant, the vainglorious.) (An-Nisaa’ 4: 36) 3. We must work for justice and harmony among all people. Our vision must be universal and not parochial. What do we mean by parochial vision? It is to say that if wrong is done to my people, I shall speak and act, but if it is done to someone else I do not care. It is to speak loud and criticize when someone else does something wrong, but to keep silent when someone from one’s own group does wrong. Justice requires that the wrong should be corrected with right means. Injustice cannot be removed by another injustice. Two wrongs do not make one right and ends do not justify the means. The ends must be right and the means must be right. Justice requires that you should not do to others what you do not like others to do to yourself. Or in a positive way one can say, “Love for others what you love others to do to you.” Or even better is what the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Love for your brother what you love for yourself.” Allah says in the Qur'an, (O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 134) And, He says, (O you who believe! Stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear God. For God is well-acquainted with all that you do.) (Al-Ma'idah 5: 8). DEAR FRIENDS I HVE NOT FINISHED THE STORY OF MOSES.IF U ARE INTERESTED IN READING IT.PLS TELL ME

Rousseau on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

Rousseau — Sun, 01 Jul 2007 22:26:48 +0100

zawa-je is clearly an informed and sophisticated person who has been subjected to disgraceful pattern of harassment, by a gentlemen who is better versed at insult than at argument and more pretentious than educated.

zawa-je on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

zawa-je — Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:10:11 +0100

For the sake of this discussion, naturalism8 can be classified into two types: metaphysical and methodological. Metaphysical (or ontological or anti-teleological) naturalism asserts that there is nothing in the universe but chance and necessity. In this worldview, science relies on chance and necessity only, because nature itself constitutes a self-contained reality that exists, subsists, and operates solely on the basis of deterministic and non-deterministic laws. Methodological (or pragmatic) naturalism, on the other hand, “pretends” that there is nothing but chance and necessity, for the purpose of advancing science and our understanding of nature in a coherent and systematic way9. It is clear that metaphysical naturalism ensues when one adopts methodological naturalism in addition to the belief that nature is the ultimate reality, and that science can explain everything. But can it? Science does have its metaphysics and its own assumptions and beliefs that are taken for granted. These beliefs, such as the belief in the uniformity of nature, the comprehensibility of the universe, and causality, are very reasonable but they cannot be “proved” in a strict sense. Many scientists look down on religion, because religion involves belief, not realizing that they themselves have their own biases and beliefs. This, of course, does not mean that science is a mere subjective project as claimed by some postmodernists, or that all beliefs are equally plausible. A quick glance at how scientific theories are confirmed reveals that science is far from providing absolute certainty. Unfortunately, there are two extremes: one adopting science as the only means of discovering the truth, and another, aware of the shortcomings of the scientific methodology, denigrating science as an endeavor where reality plays a little role, if any, in the construction of scientific knowledge. I adopt the middle position that recognizes the limitations of science but, at the same time, acknowledges the utmost importance of science as a superb source of knowledge about ourselves and our world1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Many scientists look down on religion, because religion involves belief, not realizing that they themselves have their own biases and beliefs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Demise of Naturalism However, there would seem to be some very bad news emerging for the naturalists. Science, which they used to see as their main instrument and ally, has turned against them in recent decades. The more we learn about the natural world, the more we come to realize that what might be legitimately termed “miracles” really happened in the past. One big nail in the coffin of naturalism has been the Big Bang theory, which showed that the universe had a beginning. The discovery of a genesis of the natural world was a major blow to atheists such as Carl Sagan, who used to reiterate the naturalist dogma, “The cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be,” as if it were a scientific fact, in his TV series Cosmos, which was nothing more than atheist indoctrination. A second big nail has been the Anthropic Principle, as scientists call it. This means that virtually all the constants of the physical world, including the structure of our galaxy or the Solar System, are constructed in the best possible way to accommodate human life. This “fine-tuning” of the universe speaks for a supernatural design and intervention in the natural world—a more technical definition of what we call a “miracle.” Yet a third big nail in naturalism’s coffin has been the discovery of greater and deeper complexities of life. These complexities refute the widespread myth that Darwinism is an adequate explanation of the origin and diversity of life on earth. That’s why the late Francis Crick, an atheist and co-discoverer of DNA, had to use the “M-word” when he declared, “the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going.” The more we learn about the natural world, the more naturalism looks incredible and miracles look factual. The most recent and spectacular testimony to this fact has been the conversion of arch-atheist Anthony Flew to theism. At age 81, after decades of fierce atheism, Anthony Flew has concluded, “some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe.” He added, “A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature.” Christians, Be Christians! In a world where dedicated atheists come to realize the existence of “a super-intelligence” that shaped the natural world, it is surprising to see “Christians” who deny that the “super-intelligence” in question has intervened in history. Here, then, we have mainly a theological problem, but also a practical one. As a Muslim, I see Christianity as my ally in the effort to redeem this misguided world—misguided by many forms of materialism, hedonism, lust, and arrogance. But I want to see my allies firm in their faith. And, of course, many of them are. But for those who are not, may I point out what the Qur’an says about Christians: [The people of the Gospel should judge by what God sent down in it. Those who do not judge by what God has sent down, such people are deviators/] (Al-Ma’idah 5:47)

Rousseau on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

Rousseau — Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:37:54 +0100

"Nothing you have added supports your threads topic "A Refutation to Naturalists" Nothing you have scribbled here supports your defense of naturalism. Why?

zawa-je on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

zawa-je — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:23:45 +0100

The Pharaoh was a consummate disbeliever. He had dared challenge the Lordship of God even after Moses had shown him the signs that God had told him to show. His arrogance was such that nothing would convince him that there was a Lord to Whom all would return. He imagined that his rule of Egypt and its vast treasures and riches meant that he was the provider of its bounties, a belief that would shortly be put to test. Even after he had seen the two signs of Moses’ staff and hand, he believed them to be mere magical manifestations. So he called his counselors together: “‘Surely this man is a skilled sorcerer who wants to expel you from your land by means of magic; so what do you advise?’ They said, ‘Put him and his brother off for a while and send callers to the cities to summon every well versed sorcerer to you.’” (Quran 26:34-37) With this advice, the Pharaoh made a proposal, which was how Moses trapped him into a very public display of relative power. The Pharaoh said: “O Moses! Have you come to drive us out from our land with your magic? We can also show you magic to match it, so set an appointment between us and you, which neither we nor you shall forget to keep, in a fair (open) place.’ Moses said, ‘Let the encounter be on the day (of the Festival) of Adornment, and let the people assemble at forenoon.’” (Quran 20:56-59) By choosing this holiday, Moses ensured the maximum exposure of witnesses to the coming test, and therefore the maximum possible pressure to recognize the Truth that God is the only Lord, the One worthy of all worship, and there is none other than Him. The Battle with the Sorcerers The Bible narrates that Moses and Aaron cast down their staff first,[1] but the Quran says the sorcerers gave Moses the choice, and he forewent the first throw. “They said, ‘O Moses. Will you cast first, or shall we?’ He said, ‘You cast first.’ So, when they cast (their staves and ropes), they bewitched the eyes of the people and struck terror into them with the tremendous magic they produced.” (Quran 7:115-117) Like the miracle of Moses previously witnessed by the Pharaoh, their staffs seemed to appear like snakes. The effect of the magic was so potent that even Moses was taken aback. But God was there, supporting him. “Fear not! Verily, you have the upper hand. Cast what you have in your right hand and it shall devour the works they have done. They are merely magical simulations, and the sorcerer can never succeed, whatever the level of skill he might achieve.” (Quran 20:68-69) So Moses cast his staff and it became a serpent in reality, not mere magic, that swallowed all the simulated snakes.[2] These sorcerers, who had, before the contest, been confident of victory, now realized that what they faced was not the mere trickery used by sorcerers. They new that this feat performed by Moses was not physically possible, and that it must have originated from the creator of existence. While earlier they had been concerned about gaining the Pharaoh’s favor, now they were concerned about gaining the favor of the True Lord. “The sorcerers fell down prostrate, in adoration. They said, ‘We believe in the Lord of the worlds, the Lord of Moses and Aaron.’” (Quran 7:120-122) When the Pharaoh saw their capitulation, he was furious. He raged: “‘You have believed in him before I gave you permission; he must surely be your chief who taught you magic.[3] Therefore I will cut off your hands and legs from either side and have you crucified on palm trees. Thus you will know most certainly which of us is more severe (in punishment) and more lasting.’ They replied, ‘Never will we prefer you above what has come to us from clear signs and Him Who created us; So decree whatever you wish, for you can decree only what pertains to the life of this world. Verily, we believe (now) in our Lord, may He forgive us our sins and the magic you compelled us to perform, for God is best when it comes to rewards in comparison to your reward.’” (Quran 20:71-73) Abdullah bin Abbas, one of the companions of the Prophet, said that these sorcerers were disbelievers at the beginning of the day, but were martyred and innocent by its end. He cites as poof the prayer they made in the face of the Pharaoh’s threat:[4] “‘Our Lord! Pour out upon us patience and cause us to die as Muslims’” (Quran 7:126) The important message that these verses convey is that believing in the Lord and the Final Day, and acting for His sake and in hope of His Reward, is the most sublime and fulfilling action a person can take. Doing so will ensure one dwells in the Garden of Eden, beneath which rivers flow, forever as a result of purifying oneself from sin (through repentance followed by obedience).[5] The disobedient and recalcitrant sinner, on the other hand, is promised that: “Hell shall await him, there; he shall not die therein, nor shall he live.” (Quran 20:74) The Pharaoh’s Counselors Advise Oppression After this event, the advisors of the Pharaoh counseled him to come down hard on the Israelites to counter the clear victory which all had just witnessed. They said: “‘Would you leave Moses and his people to work corruption in the land, and forsake you and your gods?’ He said, ‘We shall slay their sons and spare their women, for surely we have a strong hold over them.’” (Quran 7:127) Indeed, the Bible also hints that the Israelites felt the oppression of the Pharaoh, but before, rather than after, the contest. It turned them against Moses, whom they blamed for making their lives more onerous.[6] Also, in the Biblical story, the killing of male offspring was limited to around the time of the birth of Moses, while such a policy is described as twice applied by the Pharaoh in Islam, this occasion being the second time. In the face of the Pharaoh’s cruelty Moses could only advise: “Pray for help from God and be patient. Indeed the earth belongs to God.” But his people complained: “‘We have been harmed before you came to us and after you came to us.’[7] He (Moses) said, ‘It may be that your lord will destroy your enemy and make you the inheritors of the land. Then He will see how you are going to act.’” (Quran 7:128-129) Indeed, God sent down plague upon plague on the Egyptians due to their oppressive intransigence. The next article will discuss these plagues, and the events that led to the flight of the Israelites. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Footnotes: [1] Exodus 7:12 [2] Quran 26:45 [3] He also accused them of plotting the capitulation with Moses in advance while in their cities, in order to accomplish a coup d’état. (Quran 7:123) [4] Tafsir Ibn Kathir commentary on Quran 7:126, citing at-Tabari 13:36 [5] Quran 20:75 [6] Exodus 5:21 [7] The scribes of the Torah turned this round, putting the words of complaint into the mouth of their prophet (Moses), saying, “O Lord, why do You mistreat Your people? Why did You send me? As soon as I came to Pharaoh to speak in Your name, he made things worse for these people. You have done nothing to help Your people.” (Exodus 5:22-3)

zawa-je on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

zawa-je — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:18:23 +0100

We are taught that we should not ask except about things that bring us benefit. We will have no access to the exact personality of Dhul Qarnayn; different interpretations are given about the man, the location, and the incidents of the past. Only Allah knows, and it is for humans to think about what benefits them, that is, the lesson or the wisdom of the story. Take, for example, Moses when Pharaoh asked him about the ancient ages and what he knows about them. He answered without hesitation that it is not his business to ask about these and Moses himself is in no way trying to think about their incidents. He accepts what Allah tells him and thinks of the lesson. Pharaoh asked arrogantly: *{He said: What then is the state of the generations of old?}* Moses answered: *{He said: The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord neither erreth nor forgetteth.}* Then he tried to let Pharaoh focus on what benefits him, that is knowing his God and declaring obedience to Him: *{Who hath appointed the earth as a bed and hath threaded roads for you therein and hath sent down water from the sky and thereby We have brought forth divers kinds of vegetation, [Saying]: Eat ye and feed your cattle. Lo! herein verily are portents for men of thought.}* Then he explained the main purpose of the creation and destruction of the generations of old, which are a lesson for all people: *{Thereof We created you, and thereunto We return you and thence We bring you forth a second time}*(Ta-Ha 20:51 – 55). Selected Quranic Verses On Pride "Indeed, He does not love the proud." [an-Nahl (16):23] "Those who dispute about the signs of Allah without any authority given to them, their breasts are filled with nothing but pride for that which they shall never attain…" [al-Ghaafir(40):56] "And every time I invited them so you might forgive them, they only put their fingers in their ears. Covering themselves with their garments, grown obstinate, and given over to pride." [Nooh (71):7] "When our signs are recited to such, he turns away full of pride, as if he heard them not…" [Luqmaan (31):7] "Those who disdain His worship and are full of pride, He will gather them all together to answer to Him." [An-Nisaa' (4):172] "So enter the gates of Hell to dwell therein. Indeed evil is the abode of the proud.” [An-Nahl (16):29] "But today you shall be recompensed with suffering humiliation because you were prideful in the earth without just cause…" [Al-Ahqaaf (46):20] "On the Day of Judgment you will see those who lied against Allah. Their faces will be blackened, is there not in Hell an abode for the proud." [Az-Zumar (39):60] "Enter the gates of Hell to dwell therein. This is the evil abode of the proud." [Az-Zumar (39):72] From descriptions of believers in the Qur'an: "...they have no pride." [As-Sajdah (32):15] Angels are described as follows: "...they have no pride." [An-Nahl (16):49] "Those who are in presence are not too proud to serve Him…" [Al-Anbiyaa' (21):19] Selected Prophetic Traditions On Pride "Pride is dissatisfaction with the truth, and belittling the people." [Muslim] "He will not enter Paradise who has even a speck of pride in his heart." [Muslim] "Paradise and the Fire quarreled. Paradise said, 'The weak and the poor enter me.' The Fire replied, 'The oppressive and the proud enter me.' So Allah Almighty said to the Fire, 'You are my punishment, in you I punish whom I wish.' He said to Paradise, 'You are my mercy to whom I wish, and each of you will certainly be filled.'" [Muslim, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Khuzaimah] The wording of Al-Bukhari: "Paradise and the Fire complained to their Lord. Paradise said, 'O Lord, there is none who enter me but the weak and despised'. The Fire said, 'I receive only the proud…'…" "Shall I inform you of the people of Paradise? They are every weak and humble person, if he takes an oath to Allah, it will be fulfilled. Shall I inform you of the people of the Fire? They are every cruel, violent and proud person." [Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, an-Nasa'i, Ibn Majah] "Four things are among my followers from the traditions of jahiliyyah which will not leave: pride of lineage, slandering kinship, use of astrology for rain, and wailing." [Muslim] "If you were not sinners, I would fear for you what is worse for you: Pride, pride." [Al-Bayhaqi, hasan hadeeth]

Brendan 2 on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

Brendan 2 — Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:37:10 +0100

Nothing you have added supports your threads topic "A Refutation to Naturalists" Why?

zawa-je on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

zawa-je — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:14:38 +0100

Praise be to Allaah. Allaah is the Most Merciful, Most Compassionate, and He is the most Merciful of those who show mercy. His Mercy encompasses all things. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “and My Mercy embraces all things” [al-A’raaf 7:156] In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah has one hundred parts of mercy, of which He sent down one between the jinn, mankind, the animals and the insects, by means of which they are compassionate and merciful to one another, and by means of which wild animals are kind to their offspring. And Allaah has kept back ninety-nine parts of mercy with which to be merciful to His slaves of the Day of Resurrection.” Muslim, al-Tawbah, 6908. It was narrated that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: “Some prisoners were brought to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and there was a woman among the prisoners who was searching (for her child). When she found her child she embraced him and put him to her breast. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to us, ‘Do you think that this woman would throw her child in the fire?’ We said, ‘No, by Allaah, not if she is able not to.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Allaah is more merciful to His slaves than this woman is to her child.’” Agreed upon. Al-Bukhaari, 5653; Muslim, 6912. One aspect of the mercy of Allaah to His slaves is that He sent the Messengers and revealed the Books and laws to organize their lives according to the ways of wisdom, far removed from hardship and difficulty. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And We have sent you (O Muhammad) not but as a mercy for the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)” [al-Anbiya’ 21:107] The mercy of Allaah is what will admit His believing slaves to Paradise on the Day of Resurrection. No one will ever enter Paradise because of his deeds alone, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No one’s deeds will ever admit him to Paradise.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “No, not even me, unless Allaah shower me with His Mercy. So try to be near to perfection. And no one should wish for death; he is either doing good so he will do more of that, or he is doing wrong so he may repent.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5349; Muslim, 7042 So the believer must remain in a state between hoping for the mercy of Allaah and fearing His punishment, for Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Declare (O Muhammad) unto My slaves, that truly, I am the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful. And that My Torment is indeed the most painful torment” [al-Hijr 15:49-50] Does Islam really allow the killing of innocent unbelievers? This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul. I have gathered some of the Noble Verses that I am aware of that deal directly with war and peace to shed some light upon my readers. Noble Verses that order the killing of the enemies: Let us look at Noble Verses 9:28-29 "O ye believe! Truly the pagans are unclear; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear povery, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, For Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Let us look at Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...". It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new System and Wonderful Religion of Islam. Noble Verses that deal with peace: "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)" "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)" "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy. (The Noble Quran, 25:68-69)" "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)" "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)" "God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)" "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)" "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)" "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)" "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)" "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)" "Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)" "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)" "Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: 'O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.' (The Noble Quran, 18:86)" In this Noble Verse we see that if the enemy wants to do us harm, then we must punish those who did us harm. Otherwise, we must treat the enemy civilians and the innocents with kindness. Let us look at Noble Verse 45:14 "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned." Let us look at Noble Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty honors all the innocent souls that He created. Killing any innocent soul is so hated by Allah Almighty that He considers it as a crime against all of Mankind. Let us look at Noble Verse 25:68 "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty considers the innocent soul "sacred". He will punish those who kill the innocent souls (by throwing them in hell). Let us look at Noble Verse 2:182 "But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him: For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." Let us look at Noble Verse 2:224 "And make not God's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for God is One Who heareth and knoweth all things." I'd say, this Noble Verse clearly proves my point: Let us look at Noble Verse 8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." In this Noble Verse, we clearly see Allah Almighty ordering us, the Muslims, to incline toward peace when the enemy inclines toward peace. This proves that Islam is not a religion for wars, but for peace. Allah Almighty orders Muslims in the Noble Quran to allow total freedom of choice to people and to never try to force them into Islam; "Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)" The Noble Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error...(2:256)" Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light. In the above Noble Verses, we clearly see that Allah Almighty orders the Muslims to be forgiving to the enemies and to make peace and peace making their top priority. It is part of the Muslim's morals to be a peaceful person. Muslims start their greetings with "As'salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh", which means in English "May GOD's peace, mercy and blessings be upon you." This is indeed the beautiful religion of Islam. Please visit Good manners in Islam to see ample Noble Verses that order the Muslims to repel evil with good. Please visit Islam prohibits terrorism. Does Islam really allow the killing of innocent unbelievers? Is suicide bombing against Israel allowed in Islam? My explanation to the "Attack" on the US from the Islamic perspective. Unbelievers: Be persecuted or forgiven? How to propagate Islam. Complete and uncompromised freedom of religion and choice in Islam according to the Laws of the Noble Quran. taken from http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm

Brendan 2 on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

Brendan 2 — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:06:06 +0100

Do you find the truth in your 'cut and paste' here?

Quote:

They are accepted literally by Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'h without questioning the 'how' of these attributes.

And they are slaves of an imaginary being because of it. So, given that this is a rigid doctrine, do you agree with them that unbelief and heresy and even apostasy should be a sentence of death? Do you want to kill the unbelievers? It is a sad and cloistered world you describe in these posts.

zawa-je on "REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS"

zawa-je — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:53:03 +0100

Allah The Greatest Name Ar-Rahman 1 The All-Compassionate Ar-Rahim 2 The All-Merciful Al-Malik 3 The Absolute Ruler Al-Quddus 4 The Pure One As-Salam 5 The Source of Peace Al-Mu'min 6 The Inspirer of Faith Al-Muhaymin 7 The Guardian Al-'Aziz 8 The Victorious Al-Jabbar 9 The Compeller Al-Mutakabbir 10 The Greatest Al-Khaliq 11 The Creator Al-Bari' 12 The Maker of Order Al-Musawwir 13 The Shaper of Beauty Al-Ghaffar 14 The Forgiving Al-Qahhar 15 The Subduer Al-Wahhab 16 The Giver of All Ar-Razzaq 17 The Sustainer Al-Fattah 18 The Opener Al-'Alim 19 The Knower of All Al-Qabid 20 The Constrictor Al-Basit 21 The Reliever Al-Khafid 22 The Abaser Ar-Rafi' 23 The Exalter Al-Mu'izz 24 The Bestower of Honors Al-Mudhill 25 The Humiliator As-Sami 26 The Hearer of All Al-Basir 27 The Seer of All Al-Hakam 28 The Judge Al-'Adl 29 The Just Al-Latif 30 The Subtle One Al-Khabir 31 The All-Aware Al-Halim 32 The Forebearing Al-'Azim 33 The Magnificent Al-Ghafur 34 The Forgiver and Hider of Faults Ash-Shakur 35 The Rewarder of Thankfulness Al-'Ali 36 The Highest Al-Kabir 37 The Greatest Al-Hafiz 38 The Preserver Al-Muqit 39 The Nourisher Al-Hasib 40 The Accounter Al-Jalil 41 The Mighty Al-Karim 42 The Generous Ar-Raqib 43 The Watchful One Al-Mujib 44 The Responder to Prayer Al-Wasi' 45 The All-Comprehending Al-Hakim 46 The Perfectly Wise Al-Wadud 47 The Loving One Al-Majíd 48 The Majestic One Al-Ba'ith 49 The Resurrector Ash-Shahid 50 The Witness Al-h Haqq 51 The Truth Al-Wakil 52 The Trustee Al-Qawi 53 The Possessor of All Strength Al-Matin 54 The Forceful One Al-Wáli 55 The Governor Al-Hamid 56 The Praised One Al-Muhsi 57 The Appraiser Al-Mubdi 58 The Originator Al-Mu'id 59 The Restorer Al-Muhyi 60 The Giver of Life Al-Mumit 61 The Taker of Life Al-Hayy 62 The Ever Living One Al-Qayyum 63 The Self-Existing One Al-Wajid 64 The Finder Al-Májid 65 The Glorious Al-Wahid 66 The Only One Al-Ahad 67 The One As-Samad 68 The Satisfier of All Needs Al-Qadir 69 The All Powerful Al-Muqtadir 70 The Creator of All Power Al-Muqaddim 71 The Expediter Al-Mu'akhkhir 72 The Delayer Al-Awwal 73 The First Al-Akhir 74 The Last Az-Zahir 75 The Manifest One Al-Batin 76 The Hidden One Al-Walí 77 The Protecting Friend Al-Muta'ali 78 The Supreme One Al-Barr 79 The Doer of Good At-Tawwib 80 The Guide to Repentance Al-Muntaqim 81 The Avenger Al-Afu 82 The Forgiver Ar-Ra'uf 83 The Clement Malik al-Mulk 84 The Owner of All Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram 85 The Lord of Majesty and Bounty Al-Muqsit 86 The Equitable One Al-Jami 87 The Gatherer Al-Ghani 88 The Rich One Al-Mughni 89 The Enricher Al-Mani' 90 The Preventer of Harm Ad-Darr 91 The Creator of The Harmful An-Nafi 92 The Creator of Good An-Nur 93 The Light Al-Hadi 94 The Guide Al-Badi 95 The Originator Al-Baqi 96 The Everlasting One Al-Warith 97 The Inheritor of All Ar-Rashid 98 The Righteous Teacher As-Sabur 99 The Patient One

REFUTATION TO NATURALISTS,

zawa-je — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:11:17 +0100

Who was it who managed all that, perfected it, directed it and controlled it in the best way? Someone might, if he were one of the depraved, say: "it is the work of nature; there are wonderful things in nature." To such a debater we say: if Allah had let your heart, you would yourself have refuted such a statement by replying: "Tell me about this nature, is it self-sustained, having knowledge, and having the ability to contrive those wonders? Or is it not? Is it not rather just an abstract quality and a display of the visible things around?" If the answer occurs to you: It is an independent entity with full knowledge, ability, will and wisdom," say: What you describe is the Creator, the Author and Shaper, so why do you call Him nature? Forget about what he naturalists dictate and turn to what Allah has taught humans to call Him in the words of His messengers, and if you do you will be one of the happy and wise folk. Why attribute to nature the attributes that belong to Allah? Read the rest of this post...