open Democracy News Analysis - Venezuelans’ last chance, Phil Gunson - Comments

danielinyaracuy on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

danielinyaracuy — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:43:57 +0100

I am afraid that the one who is using non childish arguments here is Phil Gunson, not you. Then again introducing the chavista paid political propaganda site rethinkvenezuela says it all. For example, there is a canard that chavismo has been trying to use to justify the eternal reelection of Chavez: FDR!!!!! Besides showing the total lack of understanding of US politics and history, it also obviates the concrete fact that the US is a very federal state and as such it has a built in safeguard against anyone who would have liked to stay for too long in Washington DC. The downside of the system is of course that some states had enough power to hold on to slavery, racial discrimination and now abortion rights or gay marriage. But the fact of the matter is that even if there were no term limits to US presidents today, democracy would be in much lesser threat in the US than what it is today in Venezuela. For those interested I can recommend a blog entry which makes one of the very best cases against Chavez reelection that one might be able to read: The only other time worth while addressing here, for the benefit of those coming late into this game is the recall election clause. After the 2004 experience nobody ever again will try a recall election in Venezuela against Chavez. For those who do not know what the Tascon list I invite them to watch the following La Lista (reviewed here) where they will be told how chavismo established a list of all of those who signed for a recall election and made them second class citizens with official discrimination against them. The institutional damage were for all to see when a general recall election drive against local elected officials failed miserably a few months ago. Simply put, no one wants to be put on the shit list of any government official anymore, killing effectively any possibility that Hugo Chavez would go through any recall election process. That by itself is enough of a reason for term limits in Venezuela. Daniel Duquenal

Five O on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

Five O — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:36:02 +0100

While Gunson's piece certainly seems believable the intellectual reasoning used to hammer his points home are quite childish. The ability to be elected continuously does not automatically equate with dictatorship or undemocratic tendancies. In fact, in the U.S. one of our most respected and successful presidents enjoyed this right - FDR. In office he was able to push through the New Deal, one of the most important domestic policy initiatives we have witnessed in the U.S. And let us not forget that Chavez has to be reelected every term in order to stay in power, he can also be recalled mid-term and kicked out immediately through a national referendum if the public so chooses. It is true that the Central Bank will no longer be independent of the government, article 318 would hand over the Bank’s primary task of controlling monetary policy, largely through short-term interest rates, to elected officials. Neo-liberal economists frown upon this because it would relegate the market and the interests of the economic elite to publicly elected officials, who in theory must first serve their constituents rather than the bottom line. Interest rates are key for a nation's development because they directly affect the rate of economic growth as well as employment, wages, and inflation. The government currently makes decisions on tax and spending policy, and economic development, why not economic growth? The proposed reform would increase this agency and mandates that the Executive and the Central Bank work closely together to increase economic growth, the president does not run the show. Finally, similar to zoning in many countries, Venezuela’s internal boundaries have largely served the interests of the economic and political elite. Reforms to Article 16 aim to rectify this historical imbalance by directing resources to communities who have suffered from a lack of economic development and infrastructure at the state, city and local level. One wonders whether or not a fuss would be raised if New Orleans had was given such an avenue. http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/Constitutional%20Reform.htm

alfredo.bremont on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

alfredo.bremont — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:37:03 +0100

The ill wars and destruction you are experiencing the obliteration, the pollution and the string of deceases you exist by are due to the capitalist system. However this capitalist system is embedded on your consciousness, it acts as a trickster and inverts everything you might think it manipulates your thoughts the same way the media manipulates public opinion. Therefore it is not by a revolution, by a political party or by an armed revolution that the capitalist system can be erased from your mind, it is biologically rooted. And only by a personal reckoning can the individual manage to oust this evil system. Reason why most revolutions fail and the democratic dictatorships of the west are rapidly approaching the Orwellian realm. Most of you folks believe that this Orwellian nightmare is coming, but the fact is it has being with you for the past forty years and no one has even noticed it. Today we all claim of the oppressive surge and the repressive security laws, but those device has being with us long ago. The path to take is to examine your mind and slowly understand how these programmed patterns have being locked in into our minds. What president Chavez is doing is somewhat expanding the possibilities, and twisting the system, hopefully occurrence will play his role and an inadvertent light will shine on the veiled minds. Once that achieve men at last will be free and the oppressing capitalist system will cease to exist, out of this utopia a socialist realm will emerge and finally men will evolve his mind his consciousness and his sensual sphere will experience true freedom. Justice will become natural and exploitation unnatural; greed will have no reason to be while pleasure and love will fill human’s wishes. Humans will live longer, feel better and cohabitate peacefully. The need to destroy will cease to exist and creativity will replace it. However all this can only be achieve once most minds gather together and understand the evils of the system and realise that it their future existence that is being played now and the future liberty of your sons and daughters depends on the obliteration of the capital list system.

Pschneider_9332 on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

Pschneider_9332 — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 01:33:16 +0100

President Chavez is clearly taking his cues from the Maximum Leader on the island to his north, not El Libertador. "Future federal governments?" Will Socialism for the 21st century permit these? Raul Castro said last year that "only the Communist Party can be the worthy heir of the trust Cubans have placed in their leader." And I believe we're seeing the same kind of "rigorous and unbending ideology" displayed in Venezuela. It is no coincidence that the Maximum Leader is President Chavez' acknowledged mentor. I'm no erstwhile fan of either Prime Minister Thatcher or President Reagan, but they did run for office no? On several occasions. The point is there is concern that President Chavez is emulating Fidel Castro's model of governance. It is a legitimate issue that we should be able to raise without being smeared as "Western liberal capitalists." The Bolivarian Defense Committees, for example, sound and act, we needn't say amazingly, like Cuba's Revolutionary Defense Committees, which "trample on the rights" of its citizens. I believe "there are indeed alternatives" to both the West's liberal capitalism and its progeny, socialism. I'm disappointed that developments in Venezuela, while eschewing the former, seem to be moving in the deliberate direction of the latter.

jeremy_8 on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

jeremy_8 — Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:41:42 +0100

Pschneider_9332 Yes, Gunson quotes the proposed changes to the constitution directly - but not fairly. HIs quotations are incomplete and misleading. What the Venezuelan government is aiming at is an INCREASE in grass-roots democracy of a kind that will prevent future federal governments - and by extension powerful local elites - from trampling on the rights of citizens. Thus Article 16: ....A partir de la Comunidad y la Comuna, el Poder Popular desarrollará formas de agregación comunitaria Político-Territorial, las cuales serán reguladas en la Ley, y que constituyan formas de Autogobierno y cualquier otra expresión de Democracia Directa..." The Revolution shall not be criticized? Really? It seems to me that criticism is one thing that the Venezuelan "Revolution" has never lacked. In the West, the Maximum Truth since the Thatcher-Reagan reforms has been "There's no alternative" to Western Liberal capitalism. That is a much more rigorous and unbending ideology than anything Chavez has evoked. But, of course, once we reject the idea that we are simply cogs in a market machine, we discover that there are indeed alternatives. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you read a couple of the speeches and writings of Simón Bolívar - whose influence on on Chavez and on many other South American intellectuals remains immense. See, for example the justly famous "Discurso de Angostura (1819).

Pschneider_9332 on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

Pschneider_9332 — Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:21:31 +0100

"The revolution is a movement," And the movement is dynamic- - dynamic in its right direction. As long as it serves the masses, then it's good," (Libyan Government Spokesman)

Pschneider_9332 on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

Pschneider_9332 — Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:50:14 +0100

Most importantly, the Revolution shall not be criticized... Cristobal: talk about smear..."Himmler/Goebbels?" Please. Most importantly, the Revolution shall not be criticized. Jeremy: Gunson's article is fairly well-reasoned, but perhaps not impregnable. It does quote the Constitution directly and also the proposed changes. Why does it have to be characterized as a "Chavez-hating diatribe?" Perhaps because... ...the Revolution shall not be criticized. Strike Force: I suspect that because Gunson's comments don't agree completely with your own, they are perforce a "complete misrepresentation....Gunson nonsense." I also suspect that this is primarily because... ...the Revoluton shall not be criticized. Within socialism everything, outside socialism nothing. The Maximum Truth shall not be questioned.

Strike Force 9 on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

Strike Force 9 — Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:21:06 +0100

Calling all neutral readers!! This is a complete misrepresentation of what is happening in Venezuela. Lets hope Buxton takes up the challenge from Yaracuy (if only Danel WOULD hold his breath) and responds to yet more Gunson nonsense. This piece is not about providing information. It is a quilt of prose and subjective observations patched together with the end goal of reinforcing the impression that Chavez is a nasty, militaristic authoritarian. Of course it all falls down when the actual facts – which are not elucidated here – are brought into play. Wrong for the past 9 years and still going. Bravo Phil!

jeremy_8 on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

jeremy_8 — Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:35:11 +0100

This article is yet another of the innumerable Chavez-hating diatribes that appear with monotonous regularity in the western media. Its force derives not from any attempt at genuine analysis of what is happening in Venezuela, but from ignorance, political bias and a wholesale failure - perhaps willful - to understand why Chavez continues to enjoy huge popular support in his own country. What Chavez perceives - and the Gunsons of this world do not - is that western liberal capitalism has not brought genuine democracy to the majority of Venezuelans or provided them with education, health care and a dignified life style. Ever since Independence these have been the exclusive luxuries of the elite. For generations the others - the poor - have lived with their noses pressed against the window of survival. Now, suddenly, they are being asked for their views; their votes matter; their children are going to school; the elderly are seeing a doctor for the first time in their lives. To speak of western-style democracy to a peasant who can't afford a decent pair of shoes is to mock his condition. Effectively, that is what Gunson's article amounts to: mockery. The underlying purpose of Chavez' wish to revise the constitution is to ensure that a political system that has repeatedly betrayed the people is replaced by one that gives them - that is that gives the poor - a voice in their own affairs. It may not work; but the attempt is a noble one. And it will be done only with the consent of the people. That looks like a democratic procedure to me.

cseniornyc on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

cseniornyc — Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:14:00 +0100

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Five O on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

Five O — Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:46:54 +0100

'Many are the nations that have had democracy snatched from them. Few indeed are those offered the chance to vote for it to be taken away.' Damn this wretched Venezuelan government that keeps giving people the chance to vote on political change. And damn these wretched Venezuelans who keep voting for Chavez and his proposals (or might not in this case) . This authoritarian dictatorial totalitarian system is a disgrace. Goodness me, all these outrageous democratic ways and procedures.

Pschneider_9332 on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

Pschneider_9332 — Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:33:59 +0100

When was the last time President Chavez's potlical pal across the water ran for re-election? Should we be suprised, then, at this emulation of the Maximum Leader? I share the concern of this author, and others, with the "socialist development" within Venezuela. I would be equally uneasy with a constitututional order that called for elections as a means for "the construciton of capitalism." I'm saddened by this missed opportunity to promote an integral develpment that avoids sterile socialism and a corrosive capitalism, both historical morasses that impede true progress. It didn't have to go this way.

danielinyaracuy on "Venezuela: towards elected dictatorship "

danielinyaracuy — Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:48:40 +0100

Phil Your assessment is quite complete. I liked in particular that you duly noted that the communal power is not a democratic institution since it will be based on open assemblies where whoever screams the loudest will carry the day, where those who wear red shirts and write things down will be able to sway the public vote as no one wants to end up in Chavez shit list. You could have also added that the "new" constitution in fact puts these councils above the general vote, so that eventually Chavez might do away with direct elections and be elected by the councils, pure fascist corporatism if you ask me. Reading you I was wondering what our pal Julia Buxton will come up with to justify all of these anti democratic measures. I am not holding my breath. Daniel Duquenal

Venezuelans’ last chance, Phil Gunson

Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:05:50 +0100

Many are the nations that have had democracy snatched from them. Few indeed are those offered the chance to vote for it to be taken away. That is the choice that will face Venezuelans when they go to the polls on (most likely) 2 December 2007 to ratify, or reject, President Hugo Chávez's constitutional-reform project.

Phil Gunson is a journalist based in Caracas, Venezuela Also by Phil Gunson on openDemocracy:

"Hugo Chávez's provocative solidarity"(14 June 2006)

"Venezuela's media in a Bolivarian storm"(7 August 2006)

"Venezuela: a seat at the top table"(16 October 2006)

"Bolivarian myths and legends"(1 December 2006)

"Hugo Chávez: yo, el supremo" (13 April 2007)

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