open Democracy News Analysis - For Kingsnorth and country, - Comments

M Anderson on "For Kingsnorth and country"

M Anderson — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:47:56 +0000

Phillip Hosking:

"English imperialism was the driving force behind the creation of the ‘UK’.

It was not the Scots, Welsh, Cornish and Irish that decided on the British project and who then subjugated the English."

In 1603, was King James VI the driving force behind the british project?

On 12 April 1606, a new flag to represent this regal union between England and Scotland was specified in a royal decree.

What about Seymour vandeleur?

What does Nova Scotia mean?

What about new south wales?

What about Perth in Australia?

Dun Edin - Edinburgh is in New Zealand? How did it get this name?

What about Aberdeen? Places with this name can be found in no less than 34 locations around the world, including Australia, Canada, Jamaica, Antigua, Guyana, South Africa, and Sierra Leone. And there are 18 Aberdeens in the USA!

Are you stating that all these names became place names by accident?

Phillip Hosking:

"For many years before devolution Britian was simply greater England to the vast majority of English people."

Stereotyping again Phillip?

Phillip:

"Many Indians and Pakistanis where willing partisans in the empire but you’re not going to try and tell me that it was a British/Indian project are you?"

I dont see what this has to do with the issue.

By the way, what does the advent of the British empire have to do with me or any of my English patriot comtemporaries? We werent alive!

Wyrdtimes on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Wyrdtimes — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:28:31 +0000

What Philip Hosking completely fails to acknowledge is that - three hundred or so years ago every country that could build an empire was trying to do just that.

The French were at it, the Germans/Austrians/Hungarians were at it, the Dutch were at it, the Scots had a go in Panama, the Ottomans already had a massive empire etc.

It was an age when the strong did what they wanted and the weak did what they were told (times haven't changed enough eh). If Cornwall hadn't been part of an "English empire" it would have been part of the French or Spanish (same for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland).

"For many years before devolution Britain was simply greater England to the vaste majority of English people."

You can't blame the English people for that. The English have been the most Brit brainwashed of the Island peoples. We've have been told for three hundred years that we're British not English. Don't be surprised that the hard of thinking are finding it difficult to adjust back from British to English.

The best bet for an independent Cornwall remains an independent England.

Barry (The Elder) on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Barry (The Elder) — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:23:24 +0000

Conflating England with Britian is what the Daily Mail do, I have complained to them often about this culminating in a very long email conversation with one of thier editorial staff, it became so tiresome it was like watching paint dry so I gave up, I have read the two extracts and will hopefully being seeing you Paul at the CEP conference if you can make it

Paul Kingsnorth on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Paul Kingsnorth — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:38:30 +0000

It seems to me that ordinary folk all over the British Isles are suffering at the hands of an overweening British state, which itself plays handmaiden to rapacious commercial interests. and giant corporations.

It seems to me also that ordinary folk all over the British Isles have a common interest in resisting this trend, and in working towards more devolution, local democracy and cultural integrity.

So I do find it frustrating when some of them are distracted from this task by petty prejudice, xenophobia and a knee-jerk dislike of people whom they regard as of a different nationality. Some English nats are certainly guilty of this, as are some Scots. And some Cornish, apparently, for whom the word 'England' brings out a Pavlovian reaction.

Sadly, it's self-defeating. I support the Cornish case for further autonomy and cultural self-determination. If there's one thing that mind change my mind, though, it's Cornish people having a pop at me because of my nationality.

Back in Imperial times, this was called 'divide and rule', Philip. You're turning away potential allies. Wise up.

Philip Hosking on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Philip Hosking — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:03:16 +0000

English imperialism was the driving force behind the creation of the 'UK'. It was not the Scots, Welsh, Cornish and Irish that decided on the British project and who then subjugated the English.

This English imperialism within the British/Irish Isles then snowballed into British imperialism, but considering the vast majority of its proponents where English, the capital of the Empire was England's and most of the people involved couldn't tell the difference between England and Britain anyway I don't see much difference. For many years before devolution Britian was simply greater England to the vaste majority of English people.

Many Indians and Pakistanis where willing partisans in the empire but you're not going to try and tell me that it was a British/Indian project are you?

Paul Kingsnorth on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Paul Kingsnorth — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:00:01 +0000

In response to your second comment, Philip, which I've just seen - it was British, not English imperialism. This conflation of Britain with England (which, as Charlie points out, even the Mail managed to get wrong) is part of the overall problem. Plenty of Scots forged that Empire - and a few Cornishmen too.

Paul Kingsnorth on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Paul Kingsnorth — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:57:39 +0000

Thanks for linking to this Anthony. Readers might like to know that there's another extract/rewrite planned for the Mail this coming Monday - and also that the Guardian will be running an extract in their magazine on 29th March.

As for Philip's point: personally I would agree that what is good for the English is good for the Cornish, provided that's what a majority of Cornish people want. There's a fair bit on the Cornish situation in my book, especially with regard to second homes. Politically, much of this situation stems from a lack of democracy and local accountability.

But as Anthony suggests in his intro, I would also make the case that the marginalisation of Cornwall stems from the same root as the current marginalisation of England - an overweening and increasingly illegitimate British state. I would like to think that English, Cornish, Scottish and others could unite on this point.

Philip Hosking on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Philip Hosking — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:32:14 +0000

Yet another irony is that English imperialism was one of the driving forces behind the globalisation that is being bemoaned.

charliemarks on "For Kingsnorth and country"

charliemarks — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:24:03 +0000

It is a shame that the Mail printed an excerpt from the book with a headline naming "Britain"... Oh well, can';t win them all.

Paul's message will strike a chord with many but, though I've not yet had the fortune to read the book, I must correct your comment that it contains "an economic argument pitched in class terms against the influence of global corporations". My understanding is that this is not expressed in class terms in the classical sense.

hotspur on "For Kingsnorth and country"

hotspur — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:17:50 +0000

What would the Cornish scene be without English cultural homogenisation Hosking?

I think it would be still like England.

Philip Hosking on "For Kingsnorth and country"

Philip Hosking — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:15:03 +0000

Replace England and English with Cornwall and Cornish and you have a pretty good description of the Cornish scene.

Before we suffered the onslaught of globalised Mc Culture we faced English cultural homogenisation and still do.

Surely what is good for the English is good for the Cornish?

For Kingsnorth and country,

OurKingdom — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:08:10 +0000

Anthony Barnett (London, OK): A strong article in today's Mail by Paul Kingsnorth in advance of his important forthcoming book Real England: The battle against the bland. He joins together an economic argument pitched in class terms against the influence of global corporations with a national argument, that the fight-back can't succeed if its politics is British based:

All around us, we can see the steamroller flattening out our lives. This street market is closing down, that corner shop disappearing. People feel something is wrong, but they just don't know how to stop it.

They moan to each other in pubs and write letters to local newspapers. But if they bother to complain, they are fobbed off. It is patronisingly explained to them that these are small, insignificant local matters, of no import in the grand scheme of things.

They must think about wider issues such as economic growth or the War on Terror. If they persist, they are called "Luddites" or "nimbys".

The subtext is that no-one has the right to defend the place where they belong. We should have better things to do with our time.

Well, I believe there are few better things to do. This matters — a lot.

And, though it's unfashionable to say so in polite company, I've realised that it is England rather than that political construct, Britain, that matters to me.

Not because I'm a jingoist who think it's better than everywhere else. Not because I don't like foreigners or have a visceral desperation to win the World Cup. Simply because it is my country, the place I was born and grew up in and where I belong.

I know its landscapes and history and feel connected to both. I couldn't write about Scotland or Wales in the same way, because I am not part of them and they are not part of me. For better or for worse, I am English.

But we are a confused people these days. Recently, a Scottish nationalist was telling me how successful the Scots have been in creating a renewed sense of national identity since devolution.

It puzzled him, he said, that the English couldn't do the same. "Why can't the English talk about their identity or culture?" he asked.

I didn't know what to say, because I don't understand it either. The English, perhaps uniquely among European nations, are becoming almost a de-cultured people.

From our high street shops to the vocabulary we use, we are becoming a cheap and nasty imitation of the worst of consumer U.S.

We have lost sight of who we are and where we have come from. We can't sing our own folk songs or, increasingly, cook our own national foods. We sneer at morris dancers while we sip our skinny lattes.

You can read the full article here; hat tip SecretPerson