open Democracy News Analysis - Kingsnorth's English, - Comments

Philip Hosking on "Kingsnorth's English"

Philip Hosking — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:22:29 +0100

"Anti EU feeling is in part a result of power slipping away further and further from people. Ask the fisherman of SW England what they think about EU Fishing Policy"

Its funny you should say that because it was Westminster who sold off our fishing quota for benefits for the cities financial industry.

If we have a low quota its because London didn't care.

Charlie on "Kingsnorth's English"

Charlie — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:39:24 +0100

An English Parliament should be held in Leeds or Manchester. One aim would be to help develop business outside London and the home counties. Part of the problem is that the UK is run by the London chatterati. Common sense based upon practical experience, a result of industrial expertise would help to solve many of our problems.

Toque on "Kingsnorth's English"

Toque — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:32:00 +0100

Guy: "Is progressive English nationalism an idea whose time has come?"

I'll believe it when I see it. The problem with people that style themselves as 'progressive' is that they still seem to feel the need to apologise for being English, or they sneer at nationalism.

This presents something of a difficulty for 'progressive English nationalism'.

As this video shows Nick Griffin is not afraid to stand up and argue England's corner, even if his vision of England is warped. Groups like the CEP offer an alternative inclusive version of Englishness, in opposition to the BNP, but they are belittled and dismissed as reactionary by progressives - like Marquand - who then proceed to do sweet FA (I don't mean to single out Marquand, 'Progressive Patriot' by Billy Bragg is pointless too). Progressives talk the talk but they don't walk the walk.

My advice to progressives would be stop talking and agonising over things and get off your arses and actually do something. Engage with England for the sake of England or leave it to the racist BNP or the reactionary CEP.

Charlie on "Kingsnorth's English"

Charlie — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:11:29 +0100

What is progressive ? What is reactionary? Do not those who consider themselves progressive also consider themselves morally superior to thoss they consider reactionary?Suerly power should be devolved to the lowest form of organisation which is ideally the parish council( at least in the ountryside). Anti EU feeling is in part a result of power slipping away further and further from people. Ask the fisherman of SW England what they think about EU Fishing Policy. As many people either have to work longer hours or spend more time commuting actually coming face to face with a councillor or MP becomes ever more difficult. One American said the purest form of democracy was the small town meeting.

Does not the dea of English MPs deciding upon English only matters start the long overdue process of reducing the over centralisation of powers both In Britain and the EU. Increasingly politics becomes the activity of those who have the time to devote to it and not those who have experience and wish to serve.

One of the most common words used in Magna Carta is reason. What is reasonable about Scottish MPs voting on measure which only effect English voters? Is not democratic government about Government of the people, by the people, for the people?

David on "Kingsnorth's English"

David — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:37:29 +0100

Whether London or some other city became the location of an English parliament - speculation within speculation - would probably depend on whether one or more of the main parties decided to 'own' the cause, and a cosy deal was done to keep it in London. Which is another reason why it would be in the best interests of the parties to take on the idea now, so they can direct the process (even in ways some of us wouldn't be particularly happy about) and try to limit the potential of an EP to 'undermine the Union' and - possibly fatally - erode the sovereignty of the Union parliament to which they are so attached.

David, aka Britology Watch

Gareth Young on "Kingsnorth's English"

Gareth Young — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:19:23 +0100

I always thought Manchester, or Liverpool, would be a more central location for the United Kingdom Parliament.

Ray Bell on "Kingsnorth's English"

Ray Bell — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:09:34 +0100

"Manchester might even be the location of an English parliament."

Funny, I always thought that Manchester would be a more central location for an English parliament. Geographically anyway. But I can't see it happen. If and when England becomes independent, it may well realise that there is a big fat hog gobbling up all its food, and it's called London.

Philip Hosking on "Kingsnorth's English"

Philip Hosking — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:01:19 +0100

A progressive English Independence party committed to decentralization within England and with a realistic approach to Europe perhaps?

As an aside I asked a while ago 'is there room in Cornwall for a right wing Cornish nationalist party?' pro hunt, eurosceptic, duchy royalist, tough on immigration, low taxation etc It would certainly scoop up a few UKIP votes.

However the idea died a death which was actually quite reassuring.

David on "Kingsnorth's English"

David — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:48:16 +0100

Peter, You say I'm in fantasy land when I say Manchester could be the location of an EP. Well, no; my real fantasy would be if it was somewhere like Liverpool or Nottingham. And actually, as a long-in-the-tooth southerner, I'd resent the Mancs having it, to be honest.

But seriously, there are lots of supporters within the CEP and among Eng nats generally for locating the EP outside of London. It would be a vital thing to do, in my opinion.

David, aka Britology Watch

Wyrdtimes on "Kingsnorth's English"

Wyrdtimes — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:50:47 +0100

Peter - I feel your pain.

But it's not just Manchester that gets the "sh**ty end of the stick". England as a whole gets the Brown end.

Not surprising really - there's no dedicated body looking out for England or the English as a whole - unlike the situation in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

"Please don’t even bother trying to convince me this situation would change significantly under an English Parliament!"

I know I shouldn't bother trying to convince you... but your beginning to come over like child with hands clamped over ears going "naaah naaah naaah I can't hear you."

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of premature certainty regarding an English Parliament. You're certain that it would change nothing for the better regarding investment and regeneration - I believe the opposite. I believe that's exactly what an English Parliament would exist for.

I also think in an English taxes for England scenario - there would be more money to invest EVERYWHERE in England and not just the big cities.

As for the location of an EP I think it should have no fixed abode. It could move every few years. Talk about bringing government closer to the people.

secretperson on "Kingsnorth's English"

secretperson — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:17:40 +0100

Peter and Wyrdtimes - Manchester is England's second city! Birmingham is just bigger.

Peter - an English parliament will not necessarily solve the problems of centralisation, but neither will it hinder them anymore than the current situation. The money you mention spent in London has a Barnett consequential meaning money flows to Scotland, Wales and NI as a result. It is viewed as English spending which is clearly ridiculous. Without the distractions of S,W,NI maybe we could decide on a fair system of funding for England.

While it is all well and good to aim to distribute money from London, London and the SE are the only regions (no capital please!) that are net contributors to the exchequer I believe. Regional financial independence would only reduce the flow of money from London.

One answer would be for county level needs assesment (across England or the UK). Then if one 'region' or nation ended up with more money we'd know it was needs based. Plus decisions would be made at a level relevent to the services provided.

Or more financial independence and an acceptance that would mean more money for richer areas, but also more accountability.

Sarah on "Kingsnorth's English"

Sarah — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:26:26 +0100

I note that once again only the English are expected to justify their existance. People like the author are all too happy to accept discussion of the Scots, Irish, Catalans from a position of ignorance it seems.

Over romanticised ideas of identity? Fine but why limit them to 'illusiory pubs' and not to heather clad glens or wearing checked skirts whose history largely goes back to some Victorian romantic revival or going on about languages that died out years ago?

Peter Davidson on "Kingsnorth's English"

Peter Davidson — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:31:54 +0100

David

Now you really are in fantasy land

David on "Kingsnorth's English"

David — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:47:57 +0100

Manchester might even be the location of an English parliament.

Peter Davidson on "Kingsnorth's English"

Peter Davidson — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:53:52 +0100

@Wyrdtimes: "I lived in Manchester for ten years (love the place) and the idea that Manchester is on the periphery of England is ludicrous!"

Next time you're in London (assuming you don't actually live there), make some time to visit the recently refurbished St. Pancras Eurostar hub; a marvel of Victorian engineering reborn for a new century. When you are looking up admiring the span of the arches supporting the new glass roof, consider for a moment the more than £6billion of UK taxpayers money (that I helped to contribute to!) used to bankroll the construction of the CTRL plus the £800 million more spent on the fantastic new edifice before your eyes.

Then deliberate on the broken promise, as mandated in the Channel Tunnel Treaty signed all those years ago by Mrs. T and Francois Mitterand, to provide within a specified period (long since passed) after the opening of the cross channel link, direct rail services from an array of provincial UK cities to the continental mainland.

Finally you might like to reflect on the complete absence of high-speed rail connections (now and for the foreseeable future) in the UK anywhere outside the South-East/London nexus of power.

When you've done all that – come back and tell me again that the idea of Manchester as a peripheral city is ludicrous!

Mancunians (like me) are very proud of our city and our history but as far as UK government policy is concerned Manchester nearly always gets the sh**ty end of the stick!

Please don't even bother trying to convince me this situation would change significantly under an English Parliament!

Kingsnorth's English,

OurKingdom — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:23:50 +0100

Jon Bright (London, OK): There's an interesting article by Paul Kingsnorth in the New Statesman today, calling on "the Left" to engage with English nationalism. He sets out both a political and a cultural case for supporting it - the imbalances of devolution, well documented in these pages, and the type of creeping cultural destruction produced by the logic of capitalism, which we have covered far less.

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