open Democracy News Analysis - First thoughts after Labour's debacle, - Comments

Philip Hosking on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Philip Hosking — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:55:28 +0000

Peter Davidson,

I too am going over old ground but you must realise how bitterly disappointed many in the Cornish Assembly campaign were by the lack of support from practically all quarters.

"I’m assuming you would concur with these goals?"

Of course and it seems to me a shame that a stronger working relationship does not exist between UK wide democratic reformers such as Unlock Democracy and the majority progressive elements in the Cornish movement.

Peter Davidson on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Peter Davidson — Tue, 06 May 2008 09:34:54 +0000

Philip

I did use the words "it is vital that nothing should be off its agenda from the outset" and I meant it.

If a convention of this kind was established (which is doubtful of course but we can only keep up the pressure through groups like Unlock Democracy), it would be up to ordinary citizens to organise themselves in order to make their voices heard.

I think I am repeating myself when I say that I believe the shape of the current official English Regional map is a contributing negative factor in driving antipathy towards the concept of English Regional devolution.

Many here on OK complain (some in order to fulfill their own agenda) about the lack of connection, historical and cultural relevance displayed by some of the current official Regional boundaries and I would agree with them in a quite a number of instances.

One such Region is the nebulous South West Region, which has very few fans outside official circles.

For me a Citizens Convention should focus on four distinct areas of concern:

1. The shape and extent of power dispersal across the UK

2. The way in which in we elect representatives to accountable institutions of governance (of course this would include the voting system)

3. The role and identity of the UK's head of state

4. Creating a written constitutional statement.

I'm assuming you would concur with these goals?

Gareth Young (Brighton) on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Gareth Young (Brighton) — Tue, 06 May 2008 09:24:30 +0000

A referendum on an English parliament, even if lost, would be a victory as far as I am concerned because it would be recognition of the sovereignty of the people of England and England's status as a nation.

It's interesting that the Scottish people, the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government all believe that there should be a referendum on Scottish independence - even if they do have different agendas and timescales for this to happen. Gordon Brown, meanwhile, whose signature on the Scottish Claim of Right endorsed the sovereignty of the people of Scotland, is opposed to a referendum under any circumstances.

So much for listening to the people. So much for listening to Parliament. So much for a new style of government!

Philip Hosking on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Philip Hosking — Mon, 05 May 2008 19:12:40 +0000

"I believe that only through some form of meaningful engagement (not a consultation with a pre-determined outcome) with ordinary citizens can an equitable and sustainable constitutional settlement (for the entire UK) emerge"

Would this mean we would have to collect a new petition calling for devolution to a Cornish assembly?

In such a citizens convention if the majority in England demonstrated a desire for an English parliament would Cornwall, which also has a sense of national identity and interest in devolution, be heard and accomodated or simply ignored as has been the case so far?

Peter Davidson on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Peter Davidson — Mon, 05 May 2008 16:06:09 +0000

OK: "it has merged into unlock Democracy which calls for a bottom-up constitutional convention."

To derive legitimacy constitutional reform must remain citizen (bottom-up) inspired. Through the dialogue contained within OK I have come to appreciate another subtle facet of the failed Labour inspired English Regional strategy (during 2001-2004) and that is its perception as a top-down process, driven by political expediency and notions of short term electoral advantage.

Following their recent electoral reverses, (Nu)Labour must now realise that any particular fiefdom of power is open to future change. Labour do not have a divine right to govern in the North any more than the Conservatives do in the South. That right must be earned by delivering appropriate policies appealing to core voters rather than pandering to corporate interests.

I believe that only through some form of meaningful engagement (not a consultation with a pre-determined outcome) with ordinary citizens can an equitable and sustainable constitutional settlement (for the entire UK) emerge.

A citizens convention in the form now advocated by Unlock Democracy (an organisation I belong to) fits this profile - it is vital that nothing should be off its agenda (including the potential for an all-England political institution) from the outset.

Anax on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Anax — Mon, 05 May 2008 15:08:32 +0000

Since England was imperialist before the Union, as was Scotland (unsuccessfully), it's hard to see how Britishness was cooked up to justify something that was already happening.

Ray Bell on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Ray Bell — Mon, 05 May 2008 12:21:21 +0000

I suspect Cameron will be portrayed as a Scot, because his father is from Huntly. For the benefit of all the geographically confused readers - that's one of many places between Aberdeen and Inverness. Has a big castle. Nice place...

If Blair or Betty Battenburg can be considered Scots by the English media, I suspect they will consider Cameron one.

As for the English vs British question - I hope that will be one resolved in the next generation. The sooner people realise that Britishness was basically something cooked up to justify imperialism, the better.

ourkingdom on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

ourkingdom — Mon, 05 May 2008 11:23:22 +0000

Apols for short bank-holiday break. To continue my exchange with Gareth. We seem to agree. Charter 88 was created by accident 20 years ago, ten years before the CEP was founded. Its ten demands are no longer advocated and it has merged into unlock Democracy which calls for a bottom-up constitutional convention. This would have to be open to how England governs itself. Indeed, England has to be sovereign for any democratic settlement to work. It could choose NOT to be self-governing (as could Scotland) in a referendum - but it must have the choice.

On the fate of 'The English Question' which most of these comments are about, I don't agree at all the it will "melt away" if and when Cameron enters No 10. For a start, it has two sides: should Scotland vote for independence in the referendum that is increasingly likely to to be held by the end of the decade, obviously the English question will be forced on England whoever is PM. But what if the Tory majority rests on the voting system and there is a Lib-Dem/Labour majority in England along with a Labour wipe-out north of the border (even if the Scots reject independence in a referendum)? Gareth is also implicitely right about this, the english question is here to stay.

Anthony

Mike Small on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Mike Small — Sun, 04 May 2008 19:51:44 +0000

From a comment on Scoiland on Sunday reviewing the SNPs first year in charge:

'Who would believe 10 years on that the indigenous Tories are 34 percentage points behind the Nationalists in this recent poll! The indigenous Tory Party has paid a terrible price for its intransigence towards Devolution, and could well remain a minority party for a generatiobn?'

The irony of all this being that the SNP's success is because it has done what New Labour promised but failed to deliver - marrying social justice with social entreprenurialist spirit - all in a coherent cultural package.

The point is that, amongst all the cacocophany about Boris commentators have forgoten that the Toris have disappeared North of the Border.

I know you'll think this is boring - but is important - because Cameron - if he suceeds can only rule as an English Tory.

If, as David (Britology) suggests, the English question (whatever that ACTUALLY is) still has potency it will have to be resolved at Westminster, and I cant imagine the Tory grand elite putting up with some devolved English runt parliament after having been out of power for a decade.

Peter Davidson on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Peter Davidson — Sun, 04 May 2008 10:43:26 +0000

Thanks for this erudite commentary Anthony; it succinctly sets out what many of us are thinking now.

Believe it or not I agree with one aspect of Gareth's commentary here and that is the source of pressure for constitutional change.

Reforms of this nature should be driven from the bottom up rather than managed from the top down because in the latter scenario they are routinely controlled to deliver maximum electoral gain for the incumbent political faction rather than lasting social benefit for the ordinary citizen.

Brown is now in a terribly weak position and maybe that situation could be exploited but I don't hold out much hope for meaningful change.

The UK's entrenched culture of centralised power means that an internal putsch inspired by a group of fearful (for their own sinecures) Labour MP's is a much more likely scenario.

Electoral reform (even if it's just AV) will now be perceived as a desperate measure to cling on to power, rather than anything remotely statesmanlike.

How those Labour party tribalists, such as Straw and Prescott, who (all too easily) persuaded Blair to cynically renege upon the 1997 manifesto commitment for a referendum on meaningful change to the UK's arcane voting system must now rue that decision - well they should but they probably won't because most of them will almost certainly retire from politics at the next election to take up various cushy and well paid directorships/consultancies.

The rest of us will just have to pick up the pieces once again and begin the push for real change!

Scott on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Scott — Sun, 04 May 2008 09:37:57 +0000

There was also a by election in the North of Scotland on thursday where there was 10% swing from the tories to the SNP with the SNP increasing thier vote share by 15% taking over 65% of the vote. Labour didnt even put up a candidate.

How are 2 Conservative MPs of 59 representing Scotland under a Tory government going to help the Union?

Anax on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Anax — Sun, 04 May 2008 09:07:52 +0000

"he prefers to call himself ‘British’ rather than English, which is what he is (English, that is), really."

Surely it's a matter of individual preference?

David on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

David — Sun, 04 May 2008 06:17:15 +0000

Mike Small wrote: "I suspect the ‘English Question’ will dissolve like melted snow once Cameron enters Downing Street and people dont have to face the effontery of a Scot in No 10."

Except you're forgetting that the tabloids have depicted Cameron as a Scot, and he prefers to call himself 'British' rather than English, which is what he is (English, that is), really. You could be right that resentment at the West Lothian anomaly and the Barnett unfairness would simmer down for a bit under a new Cameron government, given that it would have been elected mainly in England (albeit by a minority of voters). However, I doubt whether the calm would last much beyond the honeymoon, as the basic injustices would remain in place: current anger about the English Question has much to do with the general unpopularity of New Labour (whether headed up by a Scot or not); equally, it would revive as soon as Cameron became unpopular. English people are prepared to give their minority-elected governments the benefit of the doubt for a while (fair play); but ultimately, the demand for proper democratically accountable governance for England remains a live issue.

I think Mike Small is also right that the momentum towards the establishment of separate English governance would effectively be handed back to Scotland under a Cameron government, as Scottish resentment towards a Conservative UK government resting on electoral support in England would stoke up the pro-independence engine once again.

David, aka Britology Watch

Mike Small on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Mike Small — Sun, 04 May 2008 05:17:11 +0000

Congratulations Alistair. It would only be fair to remind readers that your party hold only 1 out of 59 Westminster seats in Scotland, and 17 of 129 seats at Holyrood, the generous beneficiries of a PR system they oppposed to a parliament they rejected, wouldn't it?

Alistair Livingston on "First thoughts after Labour's debacle"

Alistair Livingston — Sat, 03 May 2008 19:44:25 +0000

There was a Conservative by-election win in Scotland on Thursday. Abbey Ward in Dumfries and Galloway was held by the Conservatives, although Labour increased their vote.

Abbey Ward is in the Dumfries and Galloway Westminster constituency currently held by Russell Brown for Labour. Peter Duncan is the Conservative candidate and is anticipating joining David Mundell as a Scottish Conservative MP.

Alex Fergusson (Conservative, now Presiding Officer) increased his majority in the Scottish Parliament elections last year.

First thoughts after Labour's debacle,

OurKingdom — Fri, 02 May 2008 12:06:43 +0000

Anthony Barnett (London, OK): Brown can't win the next election. More serious, any democratic reform agenda is now in jeopardy.

Brown can't win because the moment of genuine popularity of his first three months of office, when he appeared to be different from Blair, is long gone. That positioning has been shot to pieces not least by himself. From now on he has to fight on his record of continuity. But already the voters have given this the two-fingers. Their verdict could only be reversed by a brilliant economic revival. This seems inconceivable. The heart of New Labour's strategy was the embrace of globalisation as the deliverer of wealth plus Gordon's supposedly robust and prudent management of the economy leading to unrivalled stability as well as growth. Today the UK faces the prospect of an economic downturn, a collapse of the housing market and the inflation of staple commodities. This is the harvest of backing the US model over that of the EU, which Brown orchestrated. At the same time the explosion of the super-wealthy, which is one consequence of this strategy, has fatally undermined Labour's claim to be the party of fairness that is central to its appeal. Brown is doomed.

Much of his attempt at a reform agenda may go down with him. Brown's strategy on coming to office was to present himself as the candidate of political "change": reforming the terms of government; restoring trust in politics; making a coherent and legitimate case for "Britain" as a centripetal answer to the disintegrative forces generated by parliaments in Scotland and Wales, immigration and the EU.

For this ambitious "Britishness" agenda to succeed as Brown conceived it, it needed to be consensual, overseen by him as the revered father of the modern nation. It can hardly be embarked upon by what is now electorally the third party, scoring less than even the Lib-Dems around the country! A pity. I never thought it would succeed on Brown's terms but I did think it recognised, or at least acknowledged, and sought to address, some fundamental problems about the British state, our democracy and the way we are governed. It was therefore welcome as it might open the way to having essential arguments.

The likelihood now is that the government will retreat from the broader elements of the "governance" agenda, while the Conservatives believing that the system is now working in their favour will also see no reason to debate why it should be changed. It feels like a victory for the old regime.

PS: I have been asked how this fits with my meditation yesterday that Cameron might prove the "Next Kinnock". The answer is that to suffer the fate of a Kinnock you need your Mrs Thatcher to be pushed aside or resign, i.e. Brown would have to go. I don't agree with the otherwise strong post by Steve Richards in OpenHouse that Brown can't resign. There already is a full blown "sense of crisis". Also, comparison with the changes of leader by the Tories after 1997 don't count as Labour would be create a new Prime Minister after a leadership contest which could hardly be more divisive than the one when Heseltine ran against Thatcher.