open Democracy News Analysis - Arthur Aughey on Real England, - Comments

Little Englander on "Arthur Aughey on Real England"

Little Englander — Wed, 07 May 2008 16:19:20 +0100

Gareth,

Let's not forget that a player will take part who has had a ban overturned by a foreign FA after a red card given in an English league game played in an English stadium and that potentially England may loose a UEFA cup place to a foreign team due to the spinelessnes of the organisation who supposedly look after the interests of English football!

Anax on "Arthur Aughey on Real England"

Anax — Wed, 07 May 2008 15:01:06 +0100

When has any quest for authenticity ever ended well?

Caspar Henderson on "Arthur Aughey on Real England"

Caspar Henderson — Wed, 07 May 2008 14:36:20 +0100

I have not yet read 'Real England', but am looking forward to it. This review strengthens my interest. If Paul Kingsnorth leaves some things out, such as the church (and maybe the Nonconformist tradition for all I know), that is to likely be because he is selecting from the past to help shore up his aspirations for the future. Almost all of us do this to some degree.

My impression is that from not long after the Act of Union with Scotland until well into the early 20th century, many English people talked boldly about England and Englishness to refer to all the inhabitants and customs of the islands that they liked. This kind of chauvinism is not surprising since the English, significantly in the majority, had already had a high regard for themselves for several centuries, but it is well lost.

Going back further, in Shakespeare's Henry V, Scots, Welsh and Irish 'mechanicals' serve cameo roles in a quintessentially 'English' drama about a band of brothers, made universal through the power of Shakespeare's poetry. That Henry confesses to actually being Welsh is one of the less subtle ironies in the play.

A friend tells me he read a medieval Italian description of the English as "drunken, godless and violent" . Not much has changed, he says (as a consultant in accident and emergency medicine, he should know).

I heard from someone of my grandfather's generation (i.e. born first decade of the C20) that Mohandas Gandhi's favourite English hymn was 'Abide With Me'. Is this anecdote true?

Gareth Young (Brighton) on "Arthur Aughey on Real England"

Gareth Young (Brighton) — Wed, 07 May 2008 12:30:41 +0100

I understand what Maria is saying - Britain was the vehicle through which the English were exceptional, as were the Scots and Welsh. But the English invested more of themselve into the project, and consequently are finding disengagement more complicated.

There is no necessary relationship between Kingsnorth's objectives, but killing two birds with one stone isn't beyond the realms of possibility. An English parliament isn't just about democracy - it could give the English a stronger sense of our-selves and prompt the debate about what really is England and what we want it to be.

As a point of interest, Abide with Me will be sung at this year's English FA Cup Final, along with the British national anthem and the Welsh national anthem.

Maria Scott on "Arthur Aughey on Real England"

Maria Scott — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:30:32 +0100

The English have always discussed themselves? When I was at school in the 60s and early 70s Englishness was always submerged under Britishness. It was as though England was to bear the shame for all the years of the British Empire - of which Ireland, Wales and Scotland were also willing participants.

There are faint anti-English twangs in statements like: "The English used to believe that what was particular to them was of universal significance, that they were both exemplary as well as exceptional."

No, Mr Aughey, if the English believed that anything was exceptional it was the "British" thing. England was subsumed by Britain many years ago and is now fighting to break free.

This is a country which faces a range of discriminations from "its" Government - like health apartheid, discriminations never seen in the so-called UK before. The health outrage alone would have the Left screaming if it was levelled against any other country.

Hopefully some exemplary and exceptional characteristics will be soon be allowed to shine again in England again as we shrug off the outdated yokes of "Britain" - just as they do in nations elsewhere.

After all, when it comes to regarding themselves as examplary and exceptional, Scotland and Wales have plenty to say about themselves. I dare say Ireland does too.

Arthur Aughey on Real England,

OurKingdom — Wed, 07 May 2008 07:20:32 +0100

Arthur Aughey reviews Real England: The Battle Against the Bland by Paul Kingsnorth.

In his The Costs of Economic Growth published in 1969, EJ Mishan famously observed that economic growth, without appropriate and countervailing measures of ecological conservation, would lead to environmental degradation. In a play on Galatians Chapter 6, Verse 7 (‘Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap'), Mishan believed that the modern motto should be: ‘as you grow so shall you weep'.

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