open Democracy News Analysis - Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered, Normal Mouth - Comments

padav on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

padav — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 11:55:31 +0000

@Anonymous Wed, 2008-07-02 12:45 - "Let this government hold a referendum on regional assemblies in England on the same day throughout England with the added option of an English Parliament."

For me, this practical proposal offers an equitable solution to the ongoing constitutional conundrum presented by England.

However, before contemplating a plebiscite in this form, many things have to change:

1. Current political élites will have to take a quantum leap of faith and trust the electorate to deliberate upon this matter in a rational and informed manner.

2. That means some method of meaningful engagement with the public. That's why I advocate a Citizens' Convention for this purpose.

3. It also means a radical departure from the default strategy of keeping the public as ill-informed as possible about potential constitutional options. A Citizens' Convention should therefore include a comprehensive programme of objective information and the potential to discard current orthodoxy and start afresh, i.e. The Queen must be the British Head of State, the default voting method for elected bodies must be FPTP, the current official English Regional map must be retained - Why, Why & Why?

If (and I know it's a big ask) we can arrive at that circumstance, a simultaneous referendum (for the entire English electorate) offering mutually exclusive choices for dispersal of power in England would be legitimate and binding.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Not logged in on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Not logged in — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:40:41 +0000

Most Engish Nationalists would not object to a Cornish Assembly if that's what the majority of the people of Cornwall want.
What they do object to is devolving from the UK Assembly (Westminster) straight to regional assemblies in England without setting up an intermediary English Assembly (ie English Parliament) first.
English regional devolution should be the responsibilty of English political representitives not British.

Not logged in on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Not logged in — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:06:53 +0000

I support the English in their choice of settlement. Personally I think they would be best served by devolved government to the natural and historic English regions but that should be their choice. I believe there should be a constitutional convention that involves the English public and puts all the options on the table to be discussed.

However most Eng nats do not support the Cornish assembly campaign not for the reason you give Toque but rather for older more celtophobic reasons namely ignorance and aggressive right wing English nationalism.

Many Eng nats, being cut from the same respective cloths as UKIP, the Tories and the BNP, hold the same dislike of the 'uppity' Cornish.

Oll an gwella

The Cornish Democrat

Toque on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Toque — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 08:11:23 +0000

The Cornish Democrat wrote:

""After 12 years, England is still an after-thought. We will not tolerate the dismantling of England into unwelcome and unwanted Regions, headed by the equally unwanted Regional Assemblies""

Perhaps true but a Cornish region and Cornish assembly is a different story.

The Cornish Democrat

Perhaps true, but since you support the balkanisation of England into regions why should English nationalists suppost a Cornish assembly?

Anthony Barnett on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Anthony Barnett — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 23:34:46 +0000

Can everyone please sign their comments at the bottom until we have fixed it. Thanks (and many apols)

Not logged in on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Not logged in — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:56:27 +0000

I don't normally agree with Britology but on this occasion I concur wholeheartedly. The CONServative Party is being even more selfish and self-centered than it normally is. PR would lessen the dangerous imbalance between major party support which has built-up in the last twenty years (since the 1983 general election and in Scotland particularly since the 1987 election) which results in Scots thinking the Tory Party is the 'English party' and English people in the South of England thinking Labour is the party of Scotland (apart from the SNP of course).

A Tory victory at the next election would shatter the Union as Scots have a visceral hatred of the Tories due to the collapse of heavy industry in Scotland during the 1980's which rightly or wrongly they blame on the Conservative Party.

This scenario of a Tory victory with the Tories winning few or no seats in Scotland is what Alex Salmond dreams about. It is his 'perfect storm'.

Not logged in on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Not logged in — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:46:39 +0000

Under the present post-devolution system, MPs elected in devolved areas are allowed to participate in determining policies concerning matters which, in their constituencies, have been devolved. Their decisions on such matters do not apply to their constituents so these MPs do not represent their constituents and do not have to answer to them for their actions. However unacceptable their decisions are to the people to whom they apply, their constituents are given no reason on which to base their decision at subsequent elections. This is a travesty of a democratic constitution.

The Cornish Democrat on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

The Cornish Democrat — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:04:02 +0000

""After 12 years, England is still an after-thought. We will not tolerate the dismantling of England into unwelcome and unwanted Regions, headed by the equally unwanted Regional Assemblies""

Perhaps true but a Cornish region and Cornish assembly is a different story.

The Cornish Democrat

britologywatch on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

britologywatch — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:17:44 +0000

Of course, the whole game will be up if the Scots vote for independence in 2010, 2011 or whenever. This will be all the more likely if the Tories win outright in the next general election: a victory that will be entirely due to voting in England and will set the resultant Conservative government at odds with SNP-controlled Holyrood. Ironically, this most likely of all UK break-up scenarios is precisely one which the Tories' answer to the West Lothian Question is designed to engineer; as they want to preserve the possibility of a single party (i.e. themselves at the next election) winning outright UK majorities, dependent on the First Past the Post electoral system.

If the Tories were really interested in trying to make the current asymmetrical devolution settlement work, they'd have recommended PR. Then there'd be no conflict between the UK and English parliamentary majorities, as they'd be based on the same cross-party alliances. Clearly, the Tories are putting narrow perceived party self-interest before the survival of any sort of United Kingdom.

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Not logged in — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:44:34 +0000

Normal Mouth,

I actually believe the UK will fracture in the next ten years or so.

But I do think that a seperate English Parliament for English issues would go a long way to forestalling that analysis.

England is a nation, much as Scotland and Wales are. It would be an unbalanced federalism, but it would be federalism for all that. Which, in some senses, it has always been.

So, you are completely correct in arguing that the Tory idea is a diversion from the West Lothian question. That, however, ought to be answered directly by an English Parliament - not some sort of regionalism.

That putative English Parliament should have exactly the same subservient powers and roles that Hollyrood, The Welsh Assembly and Stormont already have when compared to Parliament.

Which obviously requires an equalisation of said devolved powers. What one gets, they all get. Otherwise it is just another game of divide and conquer.

I have zero faith that this will be delivered by any politician.

Not logged in on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Not logged in — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:42:28 +0000

"With vocal and powerful national legislatures, Britain's peripheries are accused of to looming too large in the life of the UK."

Taking a look at the numbers of MPs and the Barnett Formula squeeze and the recent report on the reality of BBC coverage - its very difficult to take any of this seriously.

Mike

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Not logged in — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:29:10 +0000

Isn't the so-called "Celtic fringe" you mention multi-ethnic/multi-cultural these days - like England? If not, why not? Celtic purity is an old racist myth - as is the idea that the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are some kind of unsullied ancient tribe.

Not logged in on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Not logged in — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:30:32 +0000

After 12 years, England is still an after-thought. We will not tolerate the dismantling of England into unwelcome and unwanted Regions, headed by the equally unwanted Regional Assemblies.
It is clear that democracy will not work for us in England and the whole system is in fact, designed to work against us and prevent us from achieving parity in Britain.
"They" are refusing to listen, but when we stop asking, "they" had better be very worried indeed.

padav on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

padav — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:27:58 +0000

"Not quite; Labour are proposing to beef up the Regional Development
Agencies in a way that could conceivably foreshadow a second go at
English regional devolution"

We can but hope but in reality there is not enough time available for Labour to pursue this policy to fruition because they will be out on their ear (unless something very dramatic and unseen occurs in the meantime) in May 2010. Let's recall that the bungled Prescott led strategy only emerged 5 years after Labour's installation in 1997 before its ultimate demise in 2004.

My general advice to Labour strategists if they are indeed indulging
in a massive rethink on this policy would be; This time round do not
under any circumstances let timidity rule your thought processes.

First of all Labour might want to consider ripping up the current
official English Regional map as a template for power dispersal because
this document has a profoundly negative impact on public reaction
towards the concept of English Regional Devolution - witness the (too)
large and nebulous South East and South West Regions for starters.

Secondly any English Regional institutions of accountable governance
must boast both primary legislative and revenue gathering powers
commensurate with their proposed competencies, so they would be English
Regional Parliaments in the truest sense of the word.

Finally Labour should be very bold in ensuring that those policy
fields slated for transfer to English devolved institutions are
both relevant to ordinary people and meaningful so I am thinking; Healthcare, Education, Law & Order (policing), Housing, Intra-Regional Transport, Culture & Tourism as a bare minimum.

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Not logged in on "Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered"

Not logged in — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:45:43 +0000

The English public are now much more aware of the meaning of regional assemblies than they were in 2004 when the North East of England voted NO to this form of government.
We know it means the abolition of England and the wiping out of English Identity and culture.
Let this government hold a referendum on regional assemblies in England on the same day throughout England with the added option for an English Parliament.
Tony Blair admitted that the English would vote yes to an English parliament.For some reason the onus seems to have fallen on the English to maintain the uk at all costs.
I'm not one of them, I would like to see a full parliament for Wales and independence if they want it. What can be fairer than that?

Cameron wanted English nationalism, not the West Lothian Question, answered, Normal Mouth

Normal Mouth — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:21:11 +0000

Moderator: Cross posted from Normal Mouth's blog.

Normal Mouth (Rhondda, blogger): At the turn of the nineteenth century the very idea of a “Welsh question” was largely inconceivable. This was not so in Scotland and Ireland, where a strong sense of nationhood was buttressed by the relative novelties of their respective unions with England. Welshness, by contrast was identified with little more than the backward retention of an ancient language, and a wild and uninviting hinterland. Little wonder that the likes of Bishop Basil Jones of St David's declared as late as 1886 that Wales survived only as a "geographical expression".*

Industrialisation and Nonconformism gave birth to Wales’s national movement, and franchise reform gave it the means to press itself upon the consciousness of Britain's leaders. With a voice, Welsh sentiment was harder to ignore in Parliament. So emerged the radical Nonconformist wing of the Liberal Party, and through that those essential precursors of devolution - disestablishment, educational reform and Sunday closing.

Welsh national status has grown steadily - if unevenly – ever since, gaining on that of Scotland (and less straightforwardly on that part of Ireland remaining within the UK). Today, far from the ignored and marginal annex of yesteryear, Wales is accused of having too much influence. English nationalists complain that the Celtic fringe, with a combined population of less than 10 million, outpunches England, with five times that number of people. With vocal and powerful national legislatures, Britain's peripheries are accused of to looming too large in the life of the UK.

It is this perceived asymmetry in national clout - or more specifically the risk of an English backlash it might engender - that motivates the Tory party's constitutional investigations. From within their own ranks the clamour for an answer to the "English Question" (a formulation equally incomprehensible to past generations) is growing steadily. Beyond the spectre of "English subsidies" the most readily understood hook upon which to hang English discontent is Tam Dalyell's infamously deceptive West Lothian Question.

By seeking to answer this narrow contrivance, rather than the wider, more poorly specificed grievance behind it, Ken Clarke and his Democracy Task Force have failed the real task set it by David Cameron. (I need not go into the mindbending practical difficulties of the plan - see here for that critique). The object of this phase of the Task Force was surely to pacify the increasing sense of English nationalism within the Tories and elsewhere.The reaction of those targeted shows how far short Clarke has fallen.

The Tories have been eager participants in a toxic analysis that holds the Celtic fringes to have gained excessive power and influence through devolution. They vowed to rebalance this, but clearly lack the courage to see through the implications of their critique by devolving power to England. It is a relief that they have not administered this remedy, but it would have been better if they had not helped pump so much poison around the system in the first place.

Postscript: John Dixon says Labour "seem unwilling to come back to the question [of English devolution]". Not quite; Labour are proposing to beef up the Regional Development Agencies in a way that could conceivably foreshadow a second go at English regional devolution.

* This was a sentiment prematurely echoed by Gwyn Alf Williams in the early 1980s