open Democracy News Analysis - The English Democrats and the far right, Tom Griffin - Comments

Anthony Barnett on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Anthony Barnett — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:19:45 +0000

I suspect change will come from a direction no one is expecting. Then, one may have to join something, party animal or not.

Toque on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Toque — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:43:14 +0000

Steve, I'm a member of the CEP.

KeyStage2 is Steve Uncles for anyone that's wondering.

KeyStage2 on "The English Democrats and the far right"

KeyStage2 — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:07:06 +0000

One thing is for certain, Gareth Young is not going to save England.

He simply stands on the Touch Line and does not take part in the game.

He's even given up on the CEP now, what a waster

Toque on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Toque — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:10:53 +0000

Right now the best hope for England is the SNP. That's how bad it is.

Wyrdtimes on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Wyrdtimes — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:51:33 +0000

Personally I can't see any of the major parties addressing the issue. The Conservative and Unionist Party looks like it will probably have a huge majority after the next election. Somehow I don’t see them putting an English Parliament anywhere on the agenda let alone near the top of it.

Hell they can’t even commit to scrapping the Barnett Formula or to giving us a referendum on the EU.

The Tories will be Tories - out for themselves as ever. They will be just as bad for England as Labour have been.

Like Toque, I’m not a party animal; in fact I think political parties are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Having said that, as far as I can tell the English Democrats for all their faults remain the best hope for England the way things currently stand.

Paul Kingsnorth on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Paul Kingsnorth — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:47:34 +0000

An interesting thought. I've often idly toyed with the idea myself. But I am no party leader. I'd rather be writing. One has to know one's limits. And while I'd be happy to see a see a decent party for England which didn't flirt with idiots like Gash, until we get PR for Westminster no such party will get anywhere meaningful.

While we wait for that i agree with Gareth that working on the mainstream parties is likely to prove much more fertile. There should be plenty of Tories willing to take this issue seriously. And the Green Party is committed to local power and deep democracy. It should be possible to persuade them of a case for an EP - but only if that case is cleansed of every trace of far right lunacy.

Toque on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Toque — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:22:48 +0000

That's fair comment I suppose. I could have joined the English Democrats from the start and played an active role. However, I'm not a party animal and I deliberately chose not to join because the way I see it the very existence of an English nationalist party ties the cause of English nationalism or English independence to whatever other policies are in their manifesto, or, importantly, their extra-curricula activities and exploits. As we have seen. It's notoriously difficult for new parties to make progress - the Greens and UKIP are the successful ones - so personally I think change will come from one of the three main parties, and perhaps pressure from the English Democrats can play a part in that.

There's no reason why the English Democrats cannot make life uncomfortable for the big three parties, and I hope they do, but they will need to change in order to do that. And like the three main parties they will have learn to take criticism without resorting to threats against the critical individual. They have enough enemies already without making more on their own side.

Wyrdtimes on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Wyrdtimes — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:56:00 +0000

No doubt mistakes have been made - setting up a new political party can't be easy afterall.

Still as far as I can tell none of the main political parties give a damn about England or the English. The English Democrats remain the hope.

Perhaps Toque and Paul Kingsnorth would like to get their heads together and create a new political party. I for one would be very interested to hear what they could come up with.

Certainly not easy - but a worthy cause and a great adventure?

Toque on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Toque — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:55:55 +0000

Good grief, I've just realised that you write this appalling bilge.

No wonder you can't see any error in Steve Uncle's methods, you're stark raving bonkers yourself.

Toque on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Toque — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:37:00 +0000

Steven, I might be all the things that you accuse me of but it's not me that's under scrutiny here.

On two public forums (here & here) Steve Uncles - "developer of the National Structure of the Party and the English Democrats 5 Year Election Strategist" - has asked the following:

"I believe it is time for all the active English Parties to Unite and put differences aside to agree a common strategy and campaign for the European 2009 Elections.

English Democrats
Free England
England First
Englands Parliamentary Party (EPP)

What do others think ?"

He's asked me what I think, and I've told him. You might think that what the English Democrats do is none of my business, and frankly I'd be happy if it wasn't. But since both Christine Constable and Steve Uncles post details of their meetings with these distasteful parties on public forums it becomes my business because what the English democrats get up to can reflect positively or negatively on the whole English nationalist movement.

Being on 'the same side' as the English Democrats is like fighting with one hand tied behind your back. It seems as though you never tire of bad publicity. Even your own handle on the EngDem's forum shows a link to the EngDems alongside some bizarre anti-islamist group.

Paul Kingsnorth on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Paul Kingsnorth — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:01:08 +0000

How do you know what 'English people are fed up' with, Stephen? Have you asked them? Based on your showing at the ballot box they don't seem to think you speak for them.

The English Democrats could have been a great opportunity. Instead they have largely crashed and burned, and this kind of stupid political naivete is the reason.

Gareth's argument was very coherent and quite correct. By associating with these racist rump parties you have very little to gain and a great deal to lose. Most of which you have now lost.

Stephen Gash on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Stephen Gash — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:39:25 +0000

Brave words are easy. Brave deeds another. The world is full of "brave bloggers" and keyboard warriors. The English Democrats is the only non-racist party fighting elections with a policy of an English Parliament.
Real bravery is to continue fighting for your country undaunted by unwarranted attacks of extremism by the media and fellow campaigners.
English people are fed up with posturing on racism, like electoral candidates stalking off the stage because members of a racist party are about to speak. It's pathetic.
Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness ended up talking after years of studiously avoiding one another.
The Government talks to Putin and indeed Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA which bombed the guts out of English cities.
Politics is about talking to people with whom you don't share views. It does not mean joining with them and adopting their views.
Talking is also about trying to persuade people. If you can persuade them that some of their views are unproductive then all well and good. Not talking to people means you're afraid of losing the argument. Where's the bravery in that?

Mike Small on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Mike Small — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:05:19 +0000

He impresses me too with brave and coherent words - though I fear he's swimming against the tide.

Anthony Barnett on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Anthony Barnett — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:02:55 +0000

Well, he impresses me.

Stephen Gash on "The English Democrats and the far right"

Stephen Gash — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:02:38 +0000

Gareth Young prefers to slag off the English Democrats than fight for an English Parliament in my opinion.

The English Democrats probably don't heed Young's "advice" because a party that has fielded Sikhs in local and national elections doesn't need to.

Young's pompous self-righteousness impresses nobody but himself.

The English Democrats has attracted supporters from all the main parties and continues to do so. This is because it is not an extreme party.

The English Democrats and the far right, Tom Griffin

Tom Griffin — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:37:59 +0000

Tom Griffin (London, OK): Arthur Aughey recently described English nationalism as 'a mood not a movement.' The English Democrats represent one attempt to change that, but it is an attempt which English nationalist blogger Gareth Young suggests is deeply problematic.

Over at Little Man in a Toque, Gareth documents the party's attempts to build alliances with far-right fringe groups such as Third Way and England First.

"There’s a huge centre-ground of people who vote Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat, and it’s those people that the English Democrats need to attract," Gareth writes.

This won’t be achieved from a position in the gutter. The EDP have never taken my advice on anything (which is why I reluctantly write this article), and perhaps they won’t now, but for what it’s worth here’s my advice: Stop meeting with racists, instead you should fight them; differentiate yourselves from ethnic nationalists in the minds of the public, help show that English nationalism is not soft white nationalism; move yourself out from the fringes, focus on the mainstream; stop poaching from other parties, recruit from your own ranks, and; for all our sakes start preaching the progressive nationalist values that I think you believe in, make those your main focus and people will find common ground with you.

It's good advice, but one can't help feeling that a party that needs such basic lessons in democratic politics is unlikely to be the vehicle that remedies England's democratic deficit.