open Democracy News Analysis - All Wales Convention meets, Tom Griffin - Comments

The Cornish Democrat on "All Wales Convention meets"

The Cornish Democrat — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:26:02 +0000

Very true Castro! You often find the same sort of people decrying a slippery slope to European federalism, such is their vision of democracy ie "if it's not the direction that I want things to go in then it's not democratic".

Their premise is that the UK is inherently good and rightly eternal. Such people have a lack of historical perspective.

To insinuate that the democratic will of the Welsh will be lost and they'll all get caught in some independentist trap from which there is no return is naive and insulting.

The Cornish Democrat

Castro on "All Wales Convention meets"

Castro — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:32:38 +0000

I don't buy into this "slippery slope to separatism" business. Neither do I think the "silent majority" are always right and history proves that.

It's disingenuous and downright insulting to say that the Scots and Welsh are being conned by "nationalists" into a socialist [or capitalist] independent state.

I trust people are intelligent enough to make up their own minds as to what they want, and if that's independence then so be it.

There'll always be extremists in both the Nationalist and Unionist camps (witness N.Ireland) but most people judge by what they see, know and have experienced.

As I said previously nothing remains the same forever - apartheid, the USSR, monarchy, slavery etc, etc.
Embrace change when it works for the benefit of the people, as Hendre suggests.

Politics in Wales and Scotland have changed, and will continue to do so, as the "United Kingdom" comes to the end of its shelf life.
This is evolution, not devolution.

Hendre on "All Wales Convention meets"

Hendre — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:49:28 +0000

“The battle has yet to begin and we seem to have strange bedfellows aligned under the quilt.”

Stonemason, haven’t you noticed our new politics in Wales? We may indeed see a cross-party ‘yes’ referendum campaign (Labour/Lib Dems/Cons/Plaid) against a cross-party ‘no’ campaign (Labour/Lib Dems/Cons) but that would hardly be news.

It’s not that long ago that any agreement between Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru would have had to be prefaced with the words ‘no spitting, no biting …’ but they’ve managed to maintain a coalition government for over year.

As for the Welsh Conservatives proposed threesome with the ‘Nats’ and the Lib Dems in the Assembly? Well, Jackie Collins couldn’t have made that one up.

Following the local elections in May, a new epithet was coined for Wales: Gwlad y Glymblaid - the Land of Coalition. We have a Lib Dem/Plaid Cymru coalition running Cardiff, a Con/Lib Dem coalition in Newport. In Ceredigion Plaid Cymru the largest party is in opposition to a Lib Dem/Labour/Independents coalition while in Conwy, again the largest group, the Conservatives in this case, is kept out by a Plaid/Labour/Lib Dem/Independents coalition.

We’ve moved away from what had become sterile one-partism. Anything goes … Having said that the politicians may be ahead of the electorate. The Welsh have often managed to combine support for radical politics with an innate conservatism.

Stonemason on "All Wales Convention meets"

Stonemason — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 04:18:14 +0000

Castro .......

Your "Letters to the press are far more influential " ......

Only if they are published!

Your "no nation would willingly forfeit their independence" ......

Wales is not, unless I have missed the gulag as driving past, a subjugated people.

Your "why should they decline the offer of independence?" ......

Generous of you, but I decline your offer of Independence because I do not see anything other than family when I look around our green and pleasant land, without rose tinted spectacles. A minority in Wales would disenfranchise the majority in the pursuit of a political vision of a Socialist State, and if you decline to believe look at Ordo's blog, grass root support of Separatist Plaid Cymru in action, these people expect "Milk and Honey", rarely I would guess have they read "Animal Farm".

Castro on "All Wales Convention meets"

Castro — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:55:53 +0000

These online debates are quite useless. Letters to the press are far more influential but unfortunately most Welsh people read London based papers which give next to no Welsh news or opinions.
So we have to judge Welsh politics on Welsh politicians and political parties as we perceive them.
As with the SNP in Scotland Plaid Cymru is on the high ground while the Unionists are struggling to retain the fag end of a lost empire.
Nothing remains the same for ever - Ireland will soon be united, Scotland will be independent and Wales will follow shortly after. I cannot for the life of me see why this should be a problem - no nation would willingly forfeit their independence so why should they decline the offer of independence?

Stonemason on "All Wales Convention meets"

Stonemason — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:19:22 +0000

It's not all good news.

Plaid Cymru Welsh Assembly Member Helen Mary Jones is quoted today in Walesonline as ......

"Despite the comments of David Davies, having spoken to Nick Bourne on many occasions I expect him to ensure that the Conservative Party officially supports a Yes vote in a referendum by 2011".

Some debate, a little debate, no debate.

Jones goes further ........

"I hope and expect the Conservative report from Wyn Roberts to lead to official support for the Yes campaign from David Cameron and Cheryl Gillan."

This from the far left wing of Plaid Cymru.

The battle has yet to begin and we seem to have strange bedfellows aligned under the quilt.

Stonemason on "All Wales Convention meets"

Stonemason — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:30:32 +0000

Hendre, its a start, and good news for the moderate majority.

Ghandi said you cannot shake hands with a clenched fist, there are not many open hands in the camp of seperatist Plaid Cymru.

Hendre on "All Wales Convention meets"

Hendre — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:57:18 +0000

We have been overtaken by events ... see today's Western Mail.

"A WELSH Conservative MP has caused a political storm by announcing he plans to launch a cross-party campaign for a No vote in the promised referendum on full lawmaking powers for the National Assembly.

Monmouth MP David Davies, who was an AM for eight years, said giving the Assembly extra powers would begin a slippery slope to independence and “Soviet-style poverty”.

Stonemason on "All Wales Convention meets"

Stonemason — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:01:33 +0000

A respectful reply to Hendre .........

"You seem to imply, Stonemason, that a pro-unionist view must entail opposition to further powers for the Assembly." .......

...... I can concede my error, it was a concern that without an anti-Plaid position, a pro-Unionist position might be lost, would Plaid be able to strengthen its anti-Unionist stance and present it as a Welsh preference through the convention.

“There are dissenting voices in both Labour and Conservatives ranks. I’m not aware that the conservatives have an official position on the matter as yet." ..........

.......... It's what I am reading, there might be dissenting voices, but I do not hear them, if you know who they are ask them to shout. No disrespect intended.

"The Convention's remit is to stimulate debate. If it recommends
proceeding with a referendum on full law-making powers then you will
see your democracy in action". ..........

.......... without, for want of a better expression, a loyal opposition, I just cannot see debate in the offing.

I need to add, how many voters know and understand what "the current powers available to the National Assembly are", without adding "enough?" to the end of the sentence.

I am afraid that having read all the available downloadable Plaid Cymru policy documents, I fear for the future, and I wonder whether the convention have been devised as a mechanism to give Plaid Cymru a referendum to promote "devolution", as payment for the current "One Wales - Coalition agreement between Plaid and Labour".

I commend to you the following taken from page 6 of the agreement document ........

"There will be a joint commitment to use the Government of Wales Act 2006 provisions to the full under Part III and to proceed to a successful outcome of a referendum for full law-making powers under Part IV as soon as practicable, at or before the end of the Assembly term."

found at download doc.

Hendre, I would be happy to be wrong, but I smell a rat.

Hendre on "All Wales Convention meets"

Hendre — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:03:05 +0000

You seem to imply, Stonemason, that a pro-unionist view must entail opposition to further powers for the Assembly.

“all parties are currently supporting the proposition …”

There are dissenting voices in both Labour and Conservatives ranks. I’m not aware that the Conservatives have an official position on the matter as yet.

The Convention's remit is to stimulate debate. If it recommends proceeding with a referendum on full law-making powers then you will see your democracy in action.

Stonemason on "All Wales Convention meets"

Stonemason — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:53:15 +0000

Sir Emyr Jones Parry has another massive problem .....

"Who in the Welsh Assembly will take a pro-Unionist position?" Without a very public opposition to the extension of powers the process becomes a farce.

It is important to remember the Welsh Assembly has a collective incentive to increase their powers (all parties are currently supporting the proposition), it is rare for a child to refuse a sweet.

Who will police the convention during its data collection, and who will have the resources and muscle to challenge its findings and any recommendation it makes?

At best the All Wales Convention is a flawed exercise, it should be in the form of a referendum supervised by the "Electoral Commission".

It is not democracy in action.

Hendre on "All Wales Convention meets"

Hendre — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:12:15 +0000

There’s some more on this in the Western Mail today.

“THIRTY thousand people across the nation are be asked their views about the future of Welsh government by the All-Wales Convention.

Sir Emyr Jones Parry, the former UN ambassador who chairs the Convention, said groups such as the Welsh Rugby Union and the Law Society – as well as trade unions and the CBI – will help gather opinions from their members across all sections of society.”

The inclusion of the WRU is intriguing – can we expect a quick symposium or two before kick off?

Stonemason on "All Wales Convention meets"

Stonemason — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:28:03 +0000

The Welsh electorate in general:

- See no reason for independence

and

- See no reasonable grounds upon which an independent Welsh nation could exist

Not my sentiments, the words of a Plaid supporter Mimosa Cymru, written in the blog of Adam Price Plaid Cymru MP at http://www.adampriceblog.org.uk/silence-is-not-an-option

Could they also be the sentiments of the majority in Wales, who knows. They are not, however, the sentiments of the younger disaffected elements of Plaid Cymru in the villages, towns and cities of this green and pleasant land. This disaffected widespread group is dedicated to the destruction of the Union, their rhetoric at times spiteful at other venomous. Test the water at Ordvicius, look into the August archives and discover what makes this group tick.

It is time to get a definitive answer to the question of what Wales wants in terms of Independence / devolution / law making powers. You might discover that the majority find Plaid politics unwelcome, preferring our ties with Westminster, except possibly when competing at Rugby.The All Wales Convention is needed to define what the majority wish for, and then broadcast it as loud as possible, so that all might hear.

But, who will ensure those disaffected voters are represented in the deliberations, because their thoughts are as valid as the next, this I would guess is the question that is holding up proceedings, not the difficulties finding a bilingual web manager. Sir Emyr Jones Parry, Chair of the All Wales Convention, is an honest man surrounded by politics, he has a difficult job, some might say impossible.

All Wales Convention meets, Tom Griffin

Tom Griffin — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:56:39 +0000

Tom Griffin (London, OK): The All Wales Convention holds its third meeting in Cardiff Bay today. As the Western Mail's Martin Shipton notes, it's been a slow start for the body that is meant to consider the case for more powers for the Welsh Assembly.

The convention’s website, http://new.wales.gov.uk/awcsub/awchome, says: “Here you can find the latest news on the convention and when we will be in your area.

“For the All Wales Convention to be successful, we will need to promote the broadest debate possible. This will mean hearing from people from all over Wales.

“By early summer we should have a plan of events that will be taking place across Wales.”

No such events are, however, mentioned on the site.

The Convention blames the delay on difficulties in finding a Welsh-speaking web manager, but others see it as a sign that there is little momentum for an early referendum on more powers for the Assembly. The outcome of today's meeting may be a significant indicator of whether that is true.