open Democracy News Analysis - Nationalism and the English left, Tom Griffin - Comments

BigC on "Nationalism and the English left"

BigC — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:07:00 +0000

I am a Welshman living in Scotland and I've noticed that hackneyed and stereotyped images of nationalists seem to be more prevalent in Scotland and Wales than amongst the English.
Certainly in Edinburgh the "Tartan Tory" view still prevails amongst many working class people. There seems to be genuine amazement in some quarters that the SNP haven't set up checkpoints on the M74 and made kilts compulsory.
For the record, in 14 years in Edinburgh,I have come across one active SNP member with xenophobic anti-English views but an uncountable number of Labour and Tory supporters with such views.

john munro on "Nationalism and the English left"

john munro — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:34:09 +0000

I cannot comment on the situation in Wales but would Owly please produce the information which shows that the SNP is exclusivist, racist or motivated by hatred of the English?

Ian ap harri on "Nationalism and the English left"

Ian ap harri — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:28:35 +0000

Although not defining myself as British in terms of how I feel, I very much respect all who do so, including family and friends. However, now that devolution has at long last allowed the nations of the UK to legitimately express their nationalist feelings, the definition of Britishness is not threatened by the Celts but the English.
England has and always will be the most significant constituent part of the British state and with 85% of the population and an amazing history, quite rightly so.
This is where the problem lies with being British as so many English still consider English and British to be one and the same (although less so now). Until the English nation re-defines itself to the world as separate from being British, then the Brit label will mean less and less to all the elements currently formulating the UK.
So it's down to English. If you believe in a strong future for the UK, you have to come out of the closet, hopefully with a progressive and internationalist outlook..

Sarah2 on "Nationalism and the English left"

Sarah2 — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:02:42 +0000

Pat practised flim-flam answers and trying to equate black with pink doesn't impress people when its spouted by politicians why do you think it's going when it comes from you?

Quote:

Granted the English Democrats will not deliberately stand against any other English Nationalist party.

Which if that party is openly racist makes claims of EDP non-racism look paper thin and provides succour for those who like to claim English nationalist = racist.

Quote:

The motives of those wish to damage the English Democrats good name, has to be questioned, it can only be assumed that the intention is hostile to the concept of English Nationalism.

You're quite capable of damaging your own good name. Promoting the idea of alliances with parties like England First does it for you. It's already bitten the party in the rear with the Matt O'Connor debacle. Much as you may like to pretend otherwise the EDP are the not the sole representatives of English Nationalism. Criticism of the EDP is not automatically equal to hostility towards English Nationalism, indeed critics of the EDP's cosying up to groups like England First may do so because they think it gives English Nationalism a bad name and has a negative effect on their cause. Criticism of the EDP does not automatically even equal hostility to the party. Members of the party have questioned the wisdom of this.

Welsh Ramblings on "Nationalism and the English left"

Welsh Ramblings — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:06:23 +0000

The level of some of this debate is more than a little disappointing. The English left do need to wake up to the progressive forces supporting independence in Wales and Scotland.

It is so sad to see so many on the English left refuse to recognise their own prejudices. Many of them forcibly argue for recognition of small states such as Palestine and Ireland, yet are vociferously hostile to the notion that Wales and Scotland should be independent.

Many should heed the words of Lenin (and Trotsky).

"The right of nations to self-determination implies exclusively the right to independence in the political sense, the right to free political separation from the oppressor nation.... The proletariat demands a democracy that rules out the forcible retention of any one of the nations within the bounds of the state." [Lenin, National Liberation]

How many Labour politicians, when making desperate attempts to portray themselves as genuine socialists, acknowledge this aspect of socialist heritage? Answer: None.

For more, read this article

Toque on "Nationalism and the English left"

Toque — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:58:06 +0000

It's not about organisations Steve, it's about philosophy and political attitides.

It's not about "sides" - nationalism for nationalism's sake. Where you go so obviously wrong is in trying to categroise people or groups as either for or against you; one reason why you find criticism from me impossible to comprehend.

The fact that you are an English nationalist does not make me tolerate you anymore than someone who is not an English nationalist, an attitude that if adopted by you would lead to a lot less criticism from me.

Steven Uncles on "Nationalism and the English left"

Steven Uncles — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:17:38 +0000

Toque you say

"What England needs is a strong and outward looking English nationalist/internationalist voice."

On the basis that you don't feel that your vision is currently in existance.

Can I suggest that you create such an organisation ?

Maybe once it is successfully launched, then we will all be able to join and support you.

=======================================

The reality is that if you start to do something, then some people will "attack" you, even though you thought they were on your side.

Strange

Steven Uncles on "Nationalism and the English left"

Steven Uncles — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:09:57 +0000

Sarah 2

You have no logic to your argument.

Plaid Cymru are in alliance with the British Labour party to govern Wales, this does not mean that Plaid Cymru share the same values as the British Labour party.

Granted the English Democrats will not deliberately stand against any other English Nationalist party.

This is simply a pragmatice recognition of the fact that even though the English Democrats is the biggest Nationalist Party, we are still tiny compared to the main stream parties.

In order to suceed in our cause then as many people as possible need to be sticking English Leaflets through doors, up and down England.

We English Democrats, welcome all people to join our party, we need as many people as possible, and as many votes as possible.

Our own message remains, exactly as determined by our own English Democrats manifesto.

The English Democrats naturally communicates with all English Nationalists and a constant attempt to make the English Political movement as big as possible, and indeed has in the past communicated with various other poltical parties including

Veritas
Liberal Party
Senior Citizens Party
New Party
UK Reform
Countryside Party.

Such discussions have already led to the UK Reform party and the New England Party, merging into the English Democrats.

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The motives of those wish to damage the English Democrats good name, has to be questioned, it can only be assumed that the intention is hostile to the concept of English Nationalism.

Toque on "Nationalism and the English left"

Toque — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:41:49 +0000

I'm an English nationalist, but I don't think of myself as left or right. The current debate amongst left-wing progressives over the identity issue seems to me to be more about positioning themselves to take adavantage of nationalism, or possibly to prevent the right from monopolising the issue.

Frankly I'm cautious of motives, and I'm no more inclined to cooperative with the hard-left than I am with the hard-right.

What England needs is a strong and outward looking English nationalist/internationalist voice.

Ian ap harri on "Nationalism and the English left"

Ian ap harri — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:10:36 +0000

After Leanne Wood's admitedly provocative article on the future of the nations of the British Isles and the importance of a strong left wing English nationalism, I was hoping that the more intellectual amongst you may try to grasp the importance of this debate.
Instead, you have reverted to the usual nashie bashing and anti-Welsh/Scottish comments. Having said that, the earlier experiences of Welsh and Scottish nationalism were based far too much on being anti-English; a largely futile argument to hide the lack of confidence in our own potential. All aspiring nation states have to go through this phase, before realising that to define themselves in a constructive and internationalist manner, they have to drop the blame game and do things for themselves. I'm proud to say that both the SNP and Plaid are now doing this and consequently gaining support from all sections of their electorate.
I only hope that the English nation get to this stage sooner rather than later and do so with a strong and outward looking left wing nationalist/internationalist voice.
Remember that the definition you use to define me as a Welsh nationalist, defines you as UK nationalists. I also happen to be a proud trade unionist, de-centralist socialist, active anti-fascist and internationalist.
Plaid is a fun place to be!

Stephen Gash on "Nationalism and the English left"

Stephen Gash — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:28:33 +0000

I read a lengthy article on your blog, and wrongly attributed to you. On looking again it would appear to be one by Mike Knowles. My mistake.
At least we have one thing in common Gareth :-D

Stephen Gash on "Nationalism and the English left"

Stephen Gash — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:20:18 +0000

Enoch Powell? Would that be the English nationalist who was a Northern Irish MP?
He was British to his marrow.

Stephen Gash on "Nationalism and the English left"

Stephen Gash — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:17:34 +0000

The evidense is irrefutable. Just because you say the Nazis were not socialists does not mean to say that they were not/are not. Calling themselves nationalists does not mean they were nationalists. They were expansionists.
This is exactly the problem with socialism - it tyrannises people then says "it was not socialism, it was the right".
Socialism is just like any other totalitarian system.
There has not been a socialist regime yet that has not tyrannised its population.
I have not met a socialist yet who is not a bully.

The Cornish Democrat on "Nationalism and the English left"

The Cornish Democrat — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:14:02 +0000

Manxunionist,

Cornwall has been almost totally absorbed into England in an administrative (de facto) sense. In a consitutional legal sense (de jure) however Cornwall is united to and part of the Duchy of Cornwall, and, as I'm sure you are aware the Duchy exists outside the law. The Duchy of Cornwall is a UK Crown dependency operating outside of the laws of England and Wales. This is evidenced by over 150 Acts of Parliament, many of which acknowledge that the duchy is exempt from the laws that govern England and Wales.

For example, the duchy is exempt from the provisions of the Town and County Planning Act 1990. Therefore the planning laws of England and Wales do not apply to the duchy. This was evidenced in 2002 when Kerrier District Council objected to duchy plans to commence development on one of its properties. The Head of State of the Duchy of Cornwall informed the UK government of dissent – and the government duly overruled the powerless council.

As for your question about Cornish identity. Of course identity is very fluid and trying to pin it down impossible but what do you mean exactly? Some people born in Devonshire England think of themselves as Cornish?

The Cornish Democrat

Toque on "Nationalism and the English left"

Toque — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:28:23 +0000

Stephen Gash wrote:

Gareth states he was a Labour councillor, a party which has Cabinet members and former ministers who were member of the communist party.

Keep off the wacky baccy Steve, I've never been a Labour councillor and have never stated anything of the sort. I could hardly serve a party that I've never voted for and never will.

Nationalism and the English left, Tom Griffin

Tom Griffin — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:57:32 +0000

Tom Griffin (London, OK): Ordovicius points us to Red Pepper, where Plaid Cymru Assembly Member Leanne Wood argues that English left have failed to respond to the challenges of devolution.

Labour and many of the left parties have argued that Scottish and Welsh nationalism is regressive – a diversion that undermines British working class unity, which should be opposed. They refuse to acknowledge the inevitability of both countries becoming, at some point in the future, independent.

And when we leave the union, what will England then do? The loudest expressions of English national identity have until recently come from the far right. Often confusing Britishness and Englishness, theirs has been an imperialist, exclusive and racist nationalism, one that progressives rightly abhor.

But there are growing signs of progressive voices in England who are seriously addressing the issue of post-devolution English identity.

Nationalism is certainly controversial on the farther left, as witnessed by the differing accounts of Wood's contribution to the Convention of the Left last month from Socialist Unity and the World Socialist Website.

Within the Labour Party, all the signs are that the Brown bounce is also a Britishness bounce, reinvigorating faith in Labour's traditional unionism. While that moment lasts, Wood's message may not be an easy sell.