open Democracy News Analysis - One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid, Anthony Barnett - Comments

Hope on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Hope — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:26:22 +0000

Aren't all Politicians from the same Litter except of course during an election when its every man for himself. Thereafter, the sole purpose of the non elected parties to make the show believable.
What did they fear from Damien Green?
This was certainly the work of someone high up, not necessarily a politician or a civil servant.
Government not only lies but it has forgotten its responsibility to the people of Britain.
Protectionism is for now the only way forward. The economy has been drained by Construction/Real Estate companies while Government slept on the job.
What is the top man at Bank of Canada doing on the board of one of the wealthiest companies in the world?
Food prices are set to soar - Can Britain feed its self on off the land not in the clutches of Developers?

owly on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

owly — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:56:21 +0000

JFox,

The whole point of this is the sanctity of Parliament - that they arrested an MP for a very obscure Common Law offence, and using this law they searched and took away items from that MPs Palace of Westminster office.

Perhaps the only way to prevent such an occurrence again is to legislate that no Member of Parliament may be subject to arrest without a warrant signed by Her Majesty in Council. And further, that 'Session Orders' remain in force between sessions of Parliament until the moment the Sovereign actually physically sets foot within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. Again that would prevent any such incursion again.

One final thing: we must be rid of this hideous Government and the sooner the better. But in the meantime the Government should be taught a lesson; the Parliament has teeth and will bite when the need is there.

JFox on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

JFox — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:41:55 +0000

Owly:

You are technically correct - Damien Green was formally arrested for the obscure common law offence of aiding and abetting misconduct in a public office. However, the officers carrying out the arrest belong to the counter-terrorism squad, and Britain's most senior anti-terrorism police officer, Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick, oversaw the operation. The decision to cite the Police and Criminal Evidence Act was, I suspect, a post-hoc justification - an (unsuccessful) attempt to avoid a political and media backlash. Anti-terror legislation has radically altered the relationship of the police to the public and the legislature on one hand, and the executive on the other; and its enforcers are emerging as an efficient government tool for evading scrutiny, silencing whistle-blowers, and even of repressing dissent (e.g. the arrest of Mayra Evans). Would Damien Green have been arrested before anti-terror legislation came into effect? Unlikely.

Where I part company with you, Owly, is in identifying the key questions in this case. Who knew what and when seem to me to be trivialities besides the fundamental assault we are witnessing on our civil liberties, and on our democracy.

We could do worse than heed Jefferson's warning: "....law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

And his advocacy of a written constitution for the U.S. derived its force from his perception of the dangers inherent in government:

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."

owly on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

owly — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:25:58 +0000

JFox,

I do not think this is so. They used the Common Law offence of whatever of 'public office'. I doubt the two Acts you mean were involved, dreadful as they are.

To me there are two points in all of this. The first is the action of the Speaker and the Sergeant at Arms. One doubts the Police would have dared to do this had Parliament been in session, simply because of the 'Session Orders'. So Speaker Martin needs hauling over the coals.

The second point is the arrogance not only of the Police but also of the CPS. It seems that Asst. Commissioner Oakley (think that is his name) who was in charge of the case consulted the CPS. If they were involved they need to explain what they said and didn't say. All of them certainly need to be brought before the Committee of Privileges.

I suppose the third point is what Ministers knew. Judging by the language used by the Home Secretary she certainly knew of the Raid on the MPs office and so must, by logical extension, have know he was to be arrested. She might not have know the exact hour but I think she knew. If she knew then the Prime Minister knew.

Martin R on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Martin R — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:32:49 +0000

The anti-terrorism law was worded so that it could be used like a spatter gun. The way it was used to freeze the Icelandic assets proved that. The question is what can we do now.

I think there are two approaches, immediate and long term. The immediate approach is to exploit the fact that Green is a Tory to persuade the Tories to make reversing the terrorism law part of their manifesto. We all know that traffic lights, once installed, are very rarely removed. The long term approach is to work for a written constitution

JFox on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

JFox — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:01:32 +0000

At the heart of Damien Green's arrest is the licence afforded to police by the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Bill (2001) and the Serious Organized Crime and Police Act (2005). These omnibus pieces of authoritarian legislation effectively permit the government and/or the police to trample on rights and freedoms that took our forebears hundreds of years and several wars to secure. The same legislation was used by the government for such improbable initiatives as the freezing of Icelandic bank assets, and the arrest of a young woman for reciting - in the vicinity of Downing Street - the names of soldiers killed in Iraq. Our much-vaunted democracy is being eroded by those whom we have elected to stand in its defence. We, the people, will have to take it back.

" They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety," wrote Benjamin Franklin, "deserve neither liberty nor safety."

owly on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

owly — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:42:13 +0000

The most infuriating aspect of this is the searching of Green's House of Commons Office. The Palace of Westminster is a Royal Palace and the Police need the permission of the Speaker to enter. So the question is did Speaker Martin grant such permission, or was it the Sergeant-at-Arms ? If the latter, why did he not consult the Speaker ?? If the Speaker one wonders why he did not defend to the death the rights and privileges of the House.

This is a clear breach of Privilege and the matter should be taken up by not only the Conservatives but ALL MPs after Parliament is opened next week.

padav on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

padav — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:08:36 +0000

Jumping to hasty conclusions aside, I'm still shocked by this very disturbing development. Without predugding the exact situation it seems that Damien Green was merely doing his job, which is to hold the government to account.

The phrase "questions in the house" was never more apt in these circumstances. The senior officers in charge should be hauled, immediately, before the relevant scrutinising committee and questioned in public (with the threat of instant imprisonment for contempt hanging over them) to explain in detail, the motivations for their actions - in short, why they did what they did and who told them to do it.

This development appears to strike at the very heart of the doctrine of "Parliamentary Privilege". John Jackson is perhaps the most eminently qualified OK contributor capable of providing an objective legal context to this disturbing scenario?

Peter Davidson, Alderley Edge, NW.England

Ivor Cornish on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Ivor Cornish — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:42:17 +0000

This is indeed a very worrying situation.

Perhaps it will produce a rush of tickets for the convention (http://www.modernliberty.net/) on the 28th Feb. by members of the Tory party.

Then again the convention may need it's own protection unit.

It seems that no-one is beyond the reach of 'anti-terrorist' forces.

Toque on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Toque — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:38:01 +0000

From a civil liberties angle, yes I agree - but then I never swallowed the "If you've nothing to hide, then you've nothing to fear" argument.

But from a narrower political angle, what is it that they are so afraid of in order to sanction this police action? If they followed their own advice - "If you've nothing to hide, then you've nothing to fear" - then the police wouldn't be needed.

One rule for Them, another for Opposition members (and probably an even more disadvantageous one for us hoi polloi).

For even measure the police should be sent in investigate deceit and bad-practice at the Home Office.

Anthony Barnett on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Anthony Barnett — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:21:16 +0000

I find it much more serious and alarming if there was NOT political bidding. Because this would suggest that the 'anti-terrorist' forces are a law unto themselves. They have scooped up a shadow minister's computers, searched his information system, discovered who has been in contact with him, in what should be the privacy of a citizen's communication with an MP, even if that citizen works for a government department. It will intimidate everyone who works for the state and might want to whistleblow quietly (eg not leak but tip off an MP about a concern) including those who work for the... police. Damien Green may also have a small network of contacts who have not gone public. This is very bad indeed: very intimidating. It is so out of order that we have to wake people up to what is missing in our country: constitutional democracy.

Stop Common Purpose on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Stop Common Purpose — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:37:39 +0000

Common Purpose Fabians of the Yard doing the politicians’ bidding:

Common Purpose police

Toque on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Toque — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:20:10 +0000

The Purge begins.

Toque on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

Toque — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:16:45 +0000

How they managed to squeeze Damien Green into a cell with the entire population of Iceland I'll never know.

owly on "One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid"

owly — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:32:52 +0000

I doubt very much that the police would have arrested Damian Green without the knowledge and the active connivence of Ministers.

I also want to know by what authority they the police entered the precincts of the Palace of Westminster and searched his office. It is a Royal Palace and as such the Polices writ does not run there. Did the Palace authorities permit this incursion or not ?

It also seems an interesting timing that today is Sir Ian Blair's last day in office. I wonder if there is some link here. After all it was the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson (a Tory) who quite correctly called time on Sir Ian's disastrous period of office.

Gordon Brown is just showing how unfit he is to hold his office. It is high time he resigned and took this bunch of unreconstructed Fascists with him.

One reason why the police are dangerous, undemocratic and stupid, Anthony Barnett

Anthony Barnett — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 03:20:14 +0000

Anthony Barnett (London, OK): The arrest of Damien Green, early blogged by Tom (below), included a police search of his office in the House of Commons. Let's assume that there was no political direction or permission, even of an informal kind. This makes it an even more dangerous attack on democracy given that his crime was to expose wrongdoings - as he should. What do the police think they are up to? If the answer is 'just doing their job' it means they have lost any belief in parliamentary democracy. Before we get coldly outraged by this - as we will - we have to ask: is there any basis in the experience of the police for ceasing to believe in parliamentary democracy?

I think there is. The police spent many months and a huge amount of money investigating the cash for peerages scandal. They interviewed the Prime Minister twice, something that had never happened before to a serving premier. The reason is obvious to everyone. Parliament and Downing Street was a crime scene. Peerages were indeed being sold for cash. I recall watching Blair saying (but I can't find the link or the transcript) in a press conference that of course individuals who assisted political parties with large sums might be ennobled and there was nothing wrong with this - provided it didn't take place in the same transaction. The cynicism was transparent.

So there is a very strong and recent experience in the upper levels of the police that politicians get away with breaking the law. Even more annoying, when the police fail to make a case against them stand up strongly enough for a court of law, they are then attacked by the same politicians for wasting public money.

Thus the arbitrary, corrupt and despotic behaviour of New Labour under Blair has now bred an arbitrary and despotic police command. We are reaping Blair's failure to believe in democracy.

Which makes the widening of the intrusive extension of state powers that we are now witnessing all the more a matter for profound concern. Lacking a deep belief in public values and democratic accountability, as they evidently do, those who use these powers will desire to expand them - if only in order to protect themselves from the inevitable abuses generated by their own all too human incompetance.

This adds a new urgency to the fight for a principled modern liberty that is exercised by us as free citizens governing our own democracy. We can't just look to 'parliament' to do this.

I am working with Henry Porter (see his blog in Comment Is Free) and others on a Convention on Modern Liberty that will call on all those concerned to debate the issues and what to do next. The event and associated meetings around the country is still under construction. A combined effort is going to be needed.