open Democracy News Analysis - Ireland and Gaza: comparing like with like?, Tom Griffin - Comments

owly on "Ireland and Gaza: comparing like with like?"

owly — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:25:45 +0000

Yes all very well but who will 'battle for the cause of peace' among Hamas and the Palastinians ?? Hamas engineered the war by firing 6000 rockets into Israel. What was Israel supposed to do ? Lets remember that the wider world did nothing much less said anything.

Israel, for all her many faults, is not the agressor here: it is Hamas. Let us not forget that.

Paul Watterson on "Ireland and Gaza: comparing like with like?"

Paul Watterson — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:16:05 +0000

"Indeed, if anything weakened the IRA, it was the political setbacks suffered by republicans as a result of their own actions in events like the Enniskillen bombing. There is a lesson there for Hamas, but also for Israel which has experienced its own pattern of self-inflicted political setbacks, from the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982, to the Qana massacres in 1996 and 2006."

Enniskillen was indeed a turning point in the IRA’s campaign, but not because there was a sudden Road to Damascus experience on the part of Irish Republicanism at large, a sudden pricking of the conscience, a realisation that no political dream or indeed “Ireland” was worth one life. The reason it was a turning point was the reaction it produced amongst their “financiers” in Irish America, the Republic and the Irish communities on the British mainland. The random and sectarian nature of the Enniskillen atrocity opened the eyes and closed the wallets of too many of those who previously had thought the money they had been supplying for "The Cause" was being used in some kind of glorious liberation struggle. The continuing moral and logistic support for the provos amongst the Republican communities in N.Ireland was simply not enough to continue an effective campaign without this essential flow of money from the greater Irish Diaspora.

I don’t think there is a lesson in that particular example for either Hamas or Israel. As long as Israel is continued to be financially supported by the US Administration (a support which seems to continue regardless of events such as the one as you mentioned), outside public opinion, whilst an irritant, is ultimately of little importance. Similarly Hamas is dependent on the continued support of regime(s?) which couldn’t care less about world opinion on any subject, but in particular, their proposed Final Solution for the Jews. The only hope (and it’s a thin one) is that those courageous individuals and groups within Israel which have continued to battle for the cause of peace without recognition or assistance from the outside world, somehow win the battle for hearts and minds within their own country.

Not logged in on "Ireland and Gaza: comparing like with like?"

Not logged in — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:31:45 +0000

Hamas believe in p*ssing for distance; the IDF believe in p*ssing for accuracy. Eventually, they will realise- like the polar opposites in Northern Ireland- that the way forward is simple: stop taking the p*ss!

owly on "Ireland and Gaza: comparing like with like?"

owly — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:08:52 +0000

Equally you fail to mention that the Palestinians seem to think they can win an outright Victory, but the Arab world has tried and failed to destroy Israel a number of times. So that aint going to happen is it ?

What I think is missing from this is a simple fact: Hamas is the Government of Gaza and as such has committed an act of War against another State. The IRA, as I recall, were never the Government of Southern Ireland and were infact deeply hostile to that Government. Small point maybe, but a very important one.

MichaelCalderbank on "Ireland and Gaza: comparing like with like?"

MichaelCalderbank — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:06:18 +0000

You are right to say that the reality is 180 degrees from the account King puts forward. What opened up the avenue for peace in NI was the fact that *both* sides of the conflict were gradually forced to accept that neither could win an outright victory and to pretend otherwise would only lead to more bloodshed. The problem is that the Israelis have been allowed to believe that they can act with absolute impunity and that they can crush the resistance out of the Palestinian people by smashing Hamas, maintaining blockades and continuing to build illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Ireland and Gaza: comparing like with like?, Tom Griffin

Tom Griffin — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:55:01 +0000

Tom Griffin (London, OK): Writing in the Irish Examiner, David Trimble's former advisor Stephen King compares the Irish Troubles with the current events in Gaza.

The difference between the situation today in Gaza/Israel and in the 1990s in relation to the IRA should be blindingly obvious. The republican movement was looking for a way out of its self-destructive and counterproductive violence; Hamas believes it’s on a roll towards its ultimate aim of a Jew-free Palestine on the whole territory of Israel.

One of Jerusalem’s key objectives in Gaza — supported quietly by Arab governments — is to inject some realism into Hamas, just as the British and Irish security forces did to the IRA. We should recall it was not a short process: it took years, decades in fact. And even then, the IRA had to observe a unilateral ceasefire before they could join talks: the RUC, gardaí, British army and the Irish defence forces were scarcely confined to barracks.

The irony here is that any objective comparison of the two conflicts highlights the exact opposite of what King is implying.

According to the authoritative Lost Lives, the British and Irish security forces killed 365 people in the course of the Troubles, 9.9 per cent of the total. The IRA and other republican groups killed 2158 people, 58. 3 per cent of the total. Loyalists were responsible for the other 29.7 per cent, killing 1099 people.

There will probably never be such detailed figures for the current conflict in Gaza, but the latest reports suggest that 715 Palestinians have been killed in Operation Cast Lead, many of them civilians. 11 Israelis have been killed, of whom three were civilians.

Prior to the latest fighting, the Guardian reports that 20 Israelis had been killed by Gazan rockets in the past eight years, while 22 Gazans were killed by Israel during last year's ceasefire alone.

Far from being comparable with the British and Irish security forces, the level of killings by the Israeli Defence Forces has been even more disproportionate than that of the IRA.

King's contention that such violence is necessary to 'inject some realism' into Hamas is also questionable. The real Irish precedent, reflected in events like Bloody Sunday, is that such indiscriminate violence is utterly counterproductive.

Indeed, if anything weakened the IRA, it was the political setbacks suffered by republicans as a result of their own actions in events like the Enniskillen bombing. There is a lesson there for Hamas, but also for Israel which has experienced its own pattern of self-inflicted political setbacks, from the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982, to the Qana massacres in 1996 and 2006. This week's events at the UN schools in Gaza must now be added to that list of 'self-destructive and counter-productive violence.'

The Irish experience also raises doubts about the suggestion that Israel has no partner for peace. The IRA was held to be similarly beyond the pale for much of the troubles, yet we now know there were repeated contacts throughout the period. Most recently, state papers released earlier this month revealed peace feelers from 1978.

Hamas is a very different organisation, and easy parallels between such different situations are always questionable. Nevertheless, some of those involved in back-channel contacts with the IRA believe there is a similar potential in the Middle East. If there is a real lesson to be learned from the Irish situation, that may be it.