open Democracy News Analysis - A crisis of dignity in Gaza, Mary Robinson - Comments

Nadejda Letat on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

Nadejda Letat — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:47:54 +0000

Nadejda Letat

I'm fed up with the notion that because we, who don't agree with Israel, are automatically vilified as anti-semites and racists. For a start how can being anti-Israel be racist? Hows many "races" are there in Israel. And really, is there anything remotely looking like a "race" today - with all the globalisation? And that "anti-semite" tag? Well that is a symptom of persecution complex of Jews who are still "glorifying" the "holocaust"!! You are all wallowing in self-pity over something that has "happened" and cannot be "unhappened"! The world had sympathised with the Jews but Israel wants something else ... but what?

Israel is collectively punishing the world and holding us all to ransom for the "holocaust"!! I'm sick of it! Take a good look at yourselves, Israelis! Do you like what you see? Obviously not - otherwise you wouldn't be so hateful, miserable and unable to even laugh anymore! What do you want from the rest of the world? To say "Yes, we hate you too, just as much as you hate yourselves!". Your self-hatred may cause a total self annihilation! Is that what you want?

Nadejda Letat

BigC on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

BigC — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:08:37 +0000

I think I can live with that Ethan

EthanII on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

EthanII — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 01:57:02 +0000

Yessir, leftist wackos who cannot tell vicious anti-semitic double standards from reasonable criticism of Israel side with you, Big C. Congratulations.

Big C, if you proudly insist on applying double standards to Israel which you apply to no one else, you can expect to be strongly criticized--in fact, very strongly criticized. And the EU institutions specifically charged with combatting anti-semitism, which did not adopt behind any closed doors the definition of anti-semitism you admit you fall foul of because you apply double standards to Israel and no one else, fully back your critics up.

Keep digging yourself into that hole, Big C.

BigC on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

BigC — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:29:07 +0000

This definition, in use by the EU bureaucracy that deals with racism, was not adopted mysteriously by a faceless bureaucracy in secret but came at the behest of the representatves of European governments which are themselves freely elected.

Quite right Ethan. It hasn't been "adopted" by anyone - mysteriously or otherwise. That will not be the case until it has been debated and voted upon. As I said before it is a draft working document and is not "in use" by the EU or anyone else. The fact that these people have been charged with the job of creating such a document doesn't turn the draft document into policy! It's called democracy, something you obviously find distasteful and difficult to understand. Notice for example the wording " Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include". Not "include" but "could include". It is theoretical: A draft working document. It has no moral, administrative or legal force whatsoever. It's only purpose is to advise on the identification of anti-semitism for collecting data and formulating legislation. Absolutely worthless.

Here's some further discussion of it by a European Jewish organisation (no doubt you will characterise them as anti-semitic, communist or "self-hating" http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=50. In particular the passage on "double standards" is discussed:

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation’. This is a formulation that allows any criticism of Israel to be dismissed on the grounds that it is not simultaneously applied to every other defaulting state at the same time. As campaigners for a just peace in the Middle East we can affirm that it is thrown willy-nilly to stifle any and all but the narrowest criticism of acts of the Israeli government that are in prima facie breach of clause after clause of the 4th Geneva Convention. Or again, the democratic norm that all citizens in a state should be treated equally sometimes sits uneasily with some notions of Israel as a ‘Jewish state’ and it is not antisemitic to point this out or to suggest that Israel should, indeed, be a ‘state of all its citizens’.

And damn right I defy this document - proudly . Anyone who believes in democracy and free expression it would find it impossible not to defy it. Not a problem you would have.

Ethan II on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

Ethan II — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:11:36 +0000

Big C now explicitly admits that his stance on this blog, e.g., the application of double standards to Israel that he does not apply to any other state (e.g., the Czech Republic, or, as SteveM pointed out, Hungary), falls foul of the official definition of anti-semitism now in use by the EU institutions whose specific purpose is to fight racism.

As you yourself said, BigC, when you find yourself in a hole, it's time to stop digging.

BigC on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

BigC — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:35:21 +0000

The key is the word "bureaucracy" Ethan. It has not been debated or voted on and is therefore worthless. If it goes through the democratic process then most of it (which is uncontroversial) will be passed. The phrases inserted in order to shut down the debate on Israel are unlikely to survive debate however.

Of course I fall foul of this definition. That is what it is designed for. It has taken all the issues on which Zionists have LOST the debate and attempted to make them off limits. The use of it is effectively an admission of defeat. You cannot counter the arguments so you attempt to silence them.

Ethan II on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

Ethan II — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:14:29 +0000

Big C, you make the American Jewish Committee into some sort of Zionist conspiracy to corrupt the EU. This is because you dislike and want to reject the definition of anti-semitism which is currently in effect among the EU bureaucracies that deal specifically with racism, because that definition fits your conduct.

I'm not the only person who has pointed out this aspect of your postings; look at what SteveM said to you on Friday 1-16 at 04:55..

I'll now let the readers judge how this has come out.

(I sent an earlier message to this effect and it hasn't appeared; this message is more or less a repeat of it; sorry.)

Ethan II on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

Ethan II — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:47:14 +0000

You see the American Jewish Committee as some sort of Zionist conspiracy to pervert the EU. That's the meaning of your statement on Sunday 1-14 at 14:06, which I quoted. You try to reject the definition of anti-semitic behavior currently used by the EU, since your behavior fits that definition. SteveM pointed in that direction too..

You can have the last word, Big C. I think I've more than made my case.

BigC on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

BigC — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:02:00 +0000

You're getting desperate Ethan.

First it's anti-semitic rabbis, then it's a communist conspiracy, now I've got it in for the American Jewish Committee (whoever they are) because they're mentioned in a post I cited. You're saying that these aren't conspiracy theories but pointing out the authorship of a document is?

When in a hole stop digging Ethan.

Ethan II on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

Ethan II — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:46:16 +0000

Big C, on Sunday 1-14 at 14:06:

"The (unratified) EU Working Definition of Anti-Semitism was written by an American Zionist.(see http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2007/04/05/american-jewish-committee-defines-anti-semitism-for-eu/ ).

If Big C doesn't want to call that "conspiracy theory", that's up to him. He cites a post that says american-jewish-committee but he says he doesn't know what the AJC is. Enough said.

BigC on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

BigC — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:32:43 +0000

I'm happy to leave it at that Ethan. Though I have to say that I've never even heard of the American Jewish Committee so it's puzzling that I can accuse them of conspiracy. If that doesn't prove your capacity for distortion I don't know what does.

Ethan II on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

Ethan II — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:36:05 +0000

I distorted nothing of Big C's remarks. Perhaps he doesn't realize what he is saying.

The definition of anti-semitism I referred to is the one officially in use today by the specific EU bureaucracies which are concerned with combatting racism. And Big C's remarks fit that definition. Big C can protest all he wants, but. that's the fact.

Another fact--that Big C sees this EU definition as the result of a conspiracy by the American Jewish Committee (Sunday 1:18 at 14:06)--only makes the situation worse. (Perhaps he doesn't know the AJC's long history of working for univeral human rights.)

The snide remarks about Beinin and "trayf" demonstrate what kind of web-site Big C prefers. There's a lot of "capitalist-conspiracy" material on that site as well.

I'll now let the readers decide who has the weight of evidence

BigC on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

BigC — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:07:11 +0000

Ethan

The "definition" of anti-semitism you provided is from a working group. It has not been debated in the European Parliament nor in any of the national parliaments (which it is very unlikely to reach). Here's an example of someone who who would be prosecuted under it in the unlikely event of it progressing: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7834487.stm . Ethan would prosecute Holocaust survivors for speaking their minds. I repeat. This is a worthless definition and nobody should take any notice of it.

By contrast, the site Big C uses on this is a left-wing conspiracy-oriented anti-semitic website

It's published by an organisation called Jewish Voices for Peace. Here's a quote from it's About page"With over 20,000 supporters and members, JVP�s board of Jewish American and Israeli advisors includes Pulitzer and Tony award winner Tony Kushner, actor Ed Asner, poet Adrienne Rich as well as other respected rabbis, artists, scholars and activists." (http://www.muzzlewatch.com/about/). Anti-semitic Rabbis? Some "left-wing conspiracy-oriented anti-semitic website".

Big C, you ask for proof of your fury and double standards:

On the Gaza Deja-vu thread on Open Democracy,
you equated Zionism with Nazism. This was last Sunday (1-11) at 22:39, along with a snide remark in German ("Ein Volk, ein Land) at 16.38. On THIS thread, on Wednesday 1-14, at 19:52, you also equated Israel with the Hamas Sharia-totalitarian fantasy, and the terms you applied to it were racist, exclusivist and an international crime. You don't apply the same fury to, say, the Czech Republic.

You asked for proof, Big C, of your fury and double standards. There it is.

I asked you to reproduce what I said, not your confused and distorted interpretation of it. You are unwilling to do so here it is:

We can move forward to a situation where nations are multi-ethnic and multi-confessional and where discrimination on grounds of race or religion becomes an international crime. Or we can move backwards towards medieval conventions where racism and religious intolerance remain as part of statehood itself.

Both Zionism and the Islamic Caliphate favoured by Hamas are examples of the latter.[That is a comparison of certain aspects and not an equation of entireties - BigC] And they both stand for further atavistic social and political regression in that they both believe in achieving their aims by means of military conquest, political and economic domination and expulsion of others.

Now it should be obvious why Ethan was unwilling to reproduce this.

EthanII on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

EthanII — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:05:05 +0000

Readers, the definition of "anti-semitism" which I have employed on this thread is the definition currently in use on the website of the official European Union Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia, a branch of the official European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA). Simply google "EU defintiion of anti-semitism + EUMC". The definition was the first item that came up when I googled this.

By contrast, the site Big C uses on this is a left-wing conspiracy-oriented anti-semitic website (Note, on the article on Joel Beinin, this phrase: "Beinin was long ago declared declared trayf...")

EthanII on "A crisis of dignity in Gaza"

EthanII — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:40:24 +0000

Big C, you ask for proof of your fury and double standards:

You asked for proof, Big C, of your fury and double standards. There it is.

A crisis of dignity in Gaza, Mary Robinson

Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:36:46 +0000

All signs increasingly point to an Israeli assault in Gaza which contravenes international legal norms relating in particular to proportionality and collective punishment. This response, tragically, is but the latest in an escalating series of measures which not only fail to protect the Israeli people from terrorist attacks but further fan the flames of conflict across the region.

Mary Robinson, former president of Ireland and UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, is founder and president of Realizing Rights: The Ethical Globalization Initiative

Last November I visited the Gaza Strip for the first time in eight years, leading a small delegation of women leaders on a fact-finding mission to the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel which sought to hear and learn from the women of the region. I was shocked by the situation caused by the blockage on Gaza in terms of loss of livelihoods, restrictions on movement and a range of other human rights violations. The UN calls it an 18-month "human dignity crisis". Anyone who has seen the suffering can’t help but feel outraged. Many women I met asked why, given the truce was in place, Israel did not open the borders for at least some civilian activity to take place.

Although Hamas had established order, basic freedoms – of speech, association and religion – were becoming restricted. We had in-depth discussions with Palestinian and Israeli women leaders and community members. They were unified in their conviction that more must be done by both sides to achieve peaceful, and, therefore, more durable, solutions to the conflict. They urged us to do everything possible to help ensure the truce between Israel and Hamas would hold.

Thus it was particularly distressing to see Hamas refuse to extend the cease-fire which expired on 19 December and to watch as Israel launched an all out war which is now compounding the suffering that already existed. The most recent attacks come after more than fifty days of an almost-complete blockade of Gaza, exacerbating a dire humanitarian crisis in which more than three-quarters of the Gaza Strip’s 1.5 million residents became dependent upon direct food provision, and where supplies of water, medicines, electricity, diesel, cooking oil and even food are unpredictable and unreliable.

It was appalling to hear while in Gaza that the UN had a stockpile of over $150 million of building materials for repairing health clinics and schools in Gaza which the Israeli government had blocked at the border. It was heartrending to listen to poor women farmers in the village of Beit Hanoun beg to be able to work. “Our land has been bulldozed,” they told me. “We learned embroidery, but we have no thread. We learned to make candles, but we have no wax.” “Our children are hungry and the sick have no medicine.” Now I picture these women with no water or electricity, pounded from the sky with bombs and explosives and enduring an invasion. I am profoundly shocked and dismayed that this is becoming the “new normal”.

What is to be done now? Clearly, diplomatic efforts to forge a new cease-fire must be intensified and succeed. I add my voice to the call by groups like the International Women’s Commission (IWC) for a Just and Sustainable Palestinian–Israeli Peace – an alliance of Israeli and Palestinian women leaders who have demanded an immediate cessation of the aggression by the Israeli military forces in Gaza, which has already cost hundreds of lives. Just as Israel must end its assault on Gaza, Hamas must stop firing missiles into Israel. Only then can the painstaking work of returning to comprehensive peace talks which include Palestinian unity begin anew.

On the humanitarian front, support to hospitals and distribution of food as well as restoration of electricity, basic sanitation and other services must be facilitated urgently, including through access to border crossings that have been closed. The recent reports from the International Committee of the Red Cross accusing Israel of delaying ambulance access to Gaza to assist the wounded is particularly troubling and yet another potential breach of international humanitarian law.

As things stand at present, only the extremists are winning. War is destroying the middle east. A new way forward must be found, one which ensures both that Israelis can live in peace and security and that the Palestinian people, who have suffered far too much for far too long, are finally able to live in dignity.

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