open Democracy News Analysis - the future of turkey - Comments

L.W. on "Anatolian Muslimhood: humanising capitalism? "

L.W. — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:37:29 +0100

That movement is a Trojan horse. Accept Turkey in the Eu and you will turn Europe into a fundamentally correct province of a revived Ottoman - Persian Empire financially profiting with a democratic economic stimulus while successfully taking away clothing , free speech and equality of the sexes. lol

Luc Jacobs on "Turkey in transition: reality and image "

Luc Jacobs — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:49:10 +0100

Wirthin the EU, many words have fundamentally different meanings then in Turkey. As long as most Tuirks insist on maintaining wholly different fundamental concepts, they're not Europeans.

E.g.: in the EU, 'secular' requires that there is no massive discrimination amongst religions. In turkey, sunni islam gets massive state support, Alevi and shia are tolerated, and all other religions are severely discriminated.

Along the same line, the massive discrimination and perseciution of the Kurdisch (and to a lesser degree the Armenian) is contrary to Eu law and European customs.

Royston Jones on "Turkey in transition: reality and image "

Royston Jones — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:40:07 +0100

All very interesting, particularly the Ergenekon adoption of the Italian Right's "strategy of tension" from the 1970s and 1980s.

Speaking as a European I shall oppose Turkish membership of the EU because the Turks are an Asiatic people speaking an Asiatic language and following a religion that is incompatible with Western values.

Even if Turkey were to become a model democracy, admit to the Armenian genocide and give the Kurds full internal autonomy I should still oppose Turkish membership.

Dennis Nottebaum on "Is Rasmussen the right man?"

Dennis Nottebaum — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:08:46 +0100

Thanks, this has been changed.

Not logged in on "Is Rasmussen the right man?"

Not logged in — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:33:32 +0100

"Moreover, Rasmussen's minority government has long relied on toleration of the right-wing Folkeparti, a group that has repeatedly used racist, anti-Muslim rhetoric."

The correct name of the party is "Dansk Folkeparti" or "Danish People's Party". Shortening it to "Folkeparti" (which simply translates to "People's Party") makes no sense, since there is another party relatively far out on the left called "Socialistisk Folkeparti" as well, so it wouldn't be clear whether "Folkeparti" refers to a far-right or far-left party.

JulianS on "Is Rasmussen the right man?"

JulianS — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:23:56 +0100

Is this article about the acceptability of Rasmussen to Turkey ? Or about the role of Turkey in the EU and or NATO ? Or about the degree to which Erdogan is a reflection of Turkey ? Of course all three, but it is least persuasive about the last question and therefore hardly at all nuanced about Turkish politics in relation to the first two questions.

The strategic utility of Turkey to NATO on the one hand and to the EU on the other hand is hardly news. Whilst the cast of characters on both sides of the Straits has indeed changed since 1945, and the particular ideological antinomies have transformed, the basic geo-political arguments have remained fairly undisturbed. Indeed there is a persisting continuity to the 'Eastern question'if one's point of departure is "what should be done with the sick man/Turkey ?" So far, so familiar and Nottebaum repeats the well-known plot with some new characters.

As in earlier times though what is almost wholly missing or which is studiously ignored is the complex internal politics of Turkey or the broader Balkan-Anatolian-Levantine region (and beyond). Thus, by way of brief example, the chicanery of Erdogan is neither a barometer of changing Turkish attitudes to Europe nor an accurate reflection of popular Turkish sentiment to the cartoon issue. Simlarly I think it quite mistaken to conflate, as Nottebaum does, - "And
Ankara's elites are hesitant to perform any further pro-European reforms as
long as European governments - especially Germany and France - continue to undermine the perspective of full membership" - the positions of the Ankara elite with the maneouverings of Erdogan and the higher echelons of the AKP. Although I wouldn't use by choice the term "elite", it remains the case that there are huge intra-elite battles which such a conclusion simply ignores. No serious commentator could survey the Ergenoken circus without akcnowledging the high-stakes of the intra-'elite' battles ravaging Turkey.

Earlier Nottebaum observes that "The political costs of the accession process are
starting to outweigh the gains that Turkey aspired to." This is a remarkable claim for its complete neglect of the possible protection afforded to virtually every sector of Turkish society of a meaningful compliance with the Copenhagen criteria. The political cost of failure to join the EU will not be borne by Erdogan and the AKP, it will not even be borne by the army, but it is being borne today and everyday by trade unionists, journalists, university students and professors, workers, national 'minorities', women's groups, environmental groups, and so on. The tune that Erdogan and the AKP played regarding the deisrability of Turkey's accession to the EU is no longer of interest to him let alone of political utility. Erdogan is playing with the EU, and he'll play with NATO to the extent that he can, for reasons of domestic politcal advantage and manipulation in Turkey.

It behoves commentators of the Turkey-EU/Turkey-NATO relationship to at least acknowledge the decisive significance of internal Turkish politicsto regional geo-politics. It behoves such commentators to finally ditch the default assumption that membership of the EU (or even NATO) is an unalloyed benefit, an objective virtue and of unqualified interest to Turkey. That is not how it is seen in Turkey and the wider region.

JulianS

Luc Jacobs on "Is Rasmussen the right man?"

Luc Jacobs — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:57:07 +0100

Having followed this confrontation with great interest, I was shocked to read "After the cartoons were published in Denmark several
ambassadors from Muslim countries tried to enter into dialogue with Rasmussen
on how to defuse the situation. The Danish Prime Minister arrogantly snubbed
them. While insisting on free speech as a vital component of civil liberties in
his country, he nevertheless failed to acknowledge the need to communicate this
principle or to engage in dialogue over what had occurred."

This appears pure lies! Those muslim ambassadors snubbed the Danish PM by an utter lack of understanding for the constitutional rules in democratic states. They insisted that a PM should apologise for a free and perfectly legal opinion.

What we see in Durban II is the logical consequence: muslims states trying to render EVERY criticism of Islam and of any behavior base don Islam illegal. They want to impose censorship on large scale.

Ahmet on "Recep Tayyip Erdogan: the Mandela test"

Ahmet — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:30:34 +0000

Dear Turkish friends,
Are you in denial or betrayal? Or totally lost?
Erdogan got into a fight with Dogan (the owner of the Media Group in question) because Prime Minister preferred to give a big government project to his son-in-law rather than to Dogan, who was so hoping to get it. Afterall Turkey is Erdogan's to give away!
This is one good thing that happened to the wonderful republic established by a wonderful man, Ataturk. It is good because Dogan Media Group which can define what the uneducated masses think is now in conflict with the man who is using my religion to achieve his targets. If it worked his purposes Erdogan would use Christianity or ateism, but they are longer shots if one wishes to crunch Turkiye. Wouldn't you say? My one fear is that the two of them may soon realise they are stronger together and make peace.
Everyone in the country is afraid to speak up, those who do, thinkers/ writers are jailed and no one knows what for.
Shame on you if you are in betrayal/ denial or lost. I would be disgusted at you, but I pity you, it must be enough punishment to be in denial, betrayal and/or lost.

kadir on "Recep Tayyip Erdogan: the Mandela test"

kadir — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:37:34 +0000

With this not well thought article, you are only proving Erdogan right.

This is his point. So long the establishments, including giant media cartels, get away with their crimes, tax cheatings, and unlawful & unregulated activities.

The right question is whether or not this tax penalty is according to the regulations. Erdoagn imposes this for political reasons or not is a different issue.

If the penalty is right and Erdogan orders the government not to impose it for other political reasons, would you be happy then? Erdogan will be still a bad guy for not imposing it.

philosophile on "Recep Tayyip Erdogan: the Mandela test"

philosophile — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:53:58 +0000

What the heck were you expecting Mr Altinay blind magnanimity?

I am not an AKP supporter or here to advocate for them, nor am I a voter, but, the facts speak for themselves.

Turkish society was screwed by the previous secularist administrations for donkey's years. They have left bigger psychological scars than Erdogan can ever inflict upon the society during his tenure.

Most of the working classes were made to feel disgusted and scared to death to challenge a corrupt, degenerate, pitifully violent Turkish state who did not care about human rights and continued with its blatant and barbaric practice of torturing of its own citizens. Justice was a frozen river on Mars for millions!

47% was the answer to democratic totalitarianism and perhaps more in coming local elections tells its own story.

I would say to hell with the Republicans and the secularists and all the worthless elites of the old system. I wish I could pour more salt on their wounds.Yours

Joseph Labokas Jr on "Turkey and the European Union: don’t despair"

Joseph Labokas Jr — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:56:55 +0000

Hi,

I'm wondering, how do cypriots motivate theyr vetoing on EU? What are official reasons for not opening the ports for turks? Are the reasons ethnic or economic? Or maybe both?

Joseph Labokas Jr.

Agilis Lux on "Turkey-Israel relations after Gaza"

Agilis Lux — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:20:35 +0000

Mustafa, after Erdogan decided to give such strong message in Davos the path for a new direction is likely. Imagine Nethanjahu wins the election... Turkey can sit back a relax for a while. Under Turkish role the region was peaceful, maybe there will come something even better then EU membership.

charles_9 on "Anatolian Muslimhood: humanising capitalism? "

charles_9 — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:55:00 +0000

If 'the movement strongly supports a western-style secular state' as you say it does, then why is my weblog (http://www.charlesfred.blogspot.com - which has always been very positive about Turkey) been closed off to people in Turkey, likewise Richard Dawkins' website?

Did you manage to find out what their stance is on gay issues, at a time when gay manifestations through the streets of Istanbul are disallowed? Does this match with what we would find in a western secular state?

Why did we read (we were also in Istanbul last week) about efforts to substantially curb advertising of alcohol, extending to beer-sponsored parasols? Would the movement support such an action?

I am willing to give the country's rulers the benefit of the doubt, but it seems that they are taking the country quite the wrong way.

Alexandra Lamb on "Anatolian Muslimhood: humanising capitalism? "

Alexandra Lamb — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:33:00 +0000

A sort of ‘ethical capitalism’ is what all people, whatever the religion, religious or atheists seek. Capitalism is now grounded as the world’s unequivocal economic system, even if there be variants to it. The question now is how can we make it better? Not only is it an economic system, it somehow identifies with certain qualities that are seen to be inherently ‘Western’. How can we take something that has homogenized us, even against our will, and still find something of our traditional identity? In this article I see this group in Turkey finding a way to consolidate their identity in a fast moving world that calls on people to either be this or that, with us or against us, ‘Western’ or ‘Islamic’ but not something that can harmonize the two. Especially in a world that seems more divided than everbetween ‘West’ and ‘East’ and with many people who portray all Muslims as some sort of fanatical lunatics, I think this is important.

As for gay rights as alan moreney validly questioned, I think of some of the greatest poets the world has known who came out of Islamic Persia, and who quite freely and beautifully wrote about gay love. Like any religion, there is a kaleidoscope of interpretations.

alanmoroney on "Anatolian Muslimhood: humanising capitalism? "

alanmoroney — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:26:34 +0000

Umm, but unfortunately Max Farrar has highlighted our worst fears about any movement away fom secularism in Turkey with the words "socially conservative". Does this mean that they are going to push for dress restrictions on non-muslims in Turkey, for example? Does this mean moving away from moving towards equal representation for gays?