open Democracy News Analysis - Georgia War - Comments

Losmira on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

Losmira — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:55:24 +0000

To talk about the war or to write about it especially when the authors of the articles have never seen it with their own eyes , and let God bless them , they are just lucky .
But when journalists show the tragedy of some , they must think that the war and its consequences were not a festival or a nice party for Abkhazians or South Ossetians , last August.
During the war in 1992-93 the Amnesty International published a letter to Shevarnadze accusing him in ethnical cleansing of Abkhazians and unfortunately , now I could not find it in the internet, the fact is also very interesting , by the way , why it has disappeared ?
Or one just can guess why and who is behind of such things which speaks itself that impartiality is just far away in the air , but not in the reality ?
Iam very sorry for all the innocent people who suffered during the war which Shevarnadze broke out on my land , Abkhazia , and people instead of living in peace were fighting with each other , killing as though life is endless.
It is easy for yu to judge Glenn , who was born from so far away from his own Motherland , and has never seen it , who will ever think about it ?
Which of the authors , like this one and you especially who think about some as victims and others as the happiest ones ?

Deiko on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

Deiko — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:11:30 +0000

@ Glenn-G and others

This story is about a tragedy of a person...it is a personal tragedy and there is not place for discussions here who were first settlers of Abkhazia or who started the war....regardless of anything, there are people who suffer...so think about this lady and realized how would you feel if you were in her place....this is a tragedy which has no justification....after all, its not all about statistics...i am in shock how cold-blooded people can be.....it is unfortuante

@author...
very nice article with all its comparisons...thank you

Glenn-G (Metin Sonmez) on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

Glenn-G (Metin Sonmez) — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:36:42 +0000

There is constant misrepresentation in the West or pro-Georgia propaganda that Abkhazia is led by a gang of separatists. I would reccomend those people to tell a fable to their kids: "There is separatist country ruled by separatist government and there are separatist children drinking separatist milk and separatist old people in the streets and they drive separatist car. Everything could be Ok with them and they could look like us but there is one thing that distinguish them from us - they are separatists, they are not people so we have to kill them all".

As for the government, it was installed right after the war with Georgia - Putin was not there or even on the political horizon. There was pro-Georgian Yeltsin who together with Georgia put Abkhazia under sanctions and Yeltsin actually gave Shevardnadze the green light to attack Abkhazia on 14th August 1992.

Refugees is always a big problem and it was NOT Abkhazia who bare responsibility for them - it is Georgia that STARTED the war and created huge humanitarian catastrophy. And yes, Georgian population fled before Abkhaz Army entered the occupied territories.

[ THE MAJORITY OF GEORGIANS, HOWEVER, FLED BEFORE ABKHAZIAN AND NORTHERN CAUCASUS TROOPS ARRIVED] - UNPO: http://www.unpo.org/downloads/Abkhazia_Georgia_report_1992.pdf

If continuing your logic and letting all former Georgian popultion (Do you mean those who fought against Abkhazia on the Georgian side? Or do you mean those who were resettled to Abkhazia in Stalin & Beria & Shevardnadze time in order to assimilate Abkhaz population?) to return will you guarantee that this mass return will not cause severe consequences and new war. Even if they all return and become majority again and vote for incorporation into Georgia will you guarantee that Georgian nationalistic policy will allow any Abkhaz in Abkhazia? I think not and there is no need to experiment with this because all non-Georgian population perfectly remembers from the past history how Abkhazia was part of Georgia. For Georgians there is a country called Georgia their motherland where they may live but Abkhaz have no other home. If Georgian Army enters Abkhazia they will not mercy anybody non-georgian. (No need new experiences) But when it will be happening you will be watching cenic news about restoring constitutional oreder over rebels and again separatist children women and old people. So it is better to be alive and not recognised then dead and part of Georgia.

David Galaridze expressed well-founded doubts about the mass-return of these Kartvelians to Abkhazia in the newspaper “Akhali Taoba”: “What do we want in Abkhazia, to kill everyone and live there?”

By the way, in the 1st Chechen war Shevardnadze allowed Russian bombers to take off from Georgian bases/air-space to bomb Chechenia.

Georgians may see themselves as natural leaders for the Caucasus -- what those who think this way should ask themselves is why their neighbours do not accept them as natural local leaders and in fact see this attitude as one of the reasons NOT to award them this leadership-role.!?

avaliani on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

avaliani — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:31:31 +0000

read above and go back to school.

avaliani on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

avaliani — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:27:13 +0000

Right. It was Georgia started the war in 1992. At the time, On 14 August 1992 Abkhazian Parliament was discussing a draft proposal for a Federation with Georgia but Georgia prefered the war and invaded Abkhazia.

Glenn G (or another disguised Dr Hewitt). The way you tell the story is like a hollywood movie and has nothing to do with truth. Hence you ignore most of the facts, I will put it straight:

For last decade before the war, the tensions between Abkhaz and Georgian populations were raising in the region. A part of Abkhaz society, "titular citizens" of the Region saw Georgian upcoming independence as a threat to their identity and signed a request to be TRANSFERED TO RUSSIA (no federation was discussed then). While being 17% of the population they still had a positive discriminatory parliament, with majority of the seats on their side. This demands met harsh reaction on the other side, where Georgian, Greek, Estonian, Russian and part of Armenian populations had signed an opposite request. On 15-16 July 1989 intercommuncal violence had spread in Sokhumi over the establishment of a department of Tbilisi State Unviersity in Abkhazia. Armed abkhaz groups attacked the Georgians and clashes left several dead. There was a chain of violence that had affected many and had created very strong chauvinistic feelings on both sides. The July events in Abkhazia left at least eighteen dead and 448 injured, of whom, according to official accounts, 302 were Georgians.

In the same chain of events, Kodori Svans clashed with Tkuarcheli Abkhaz leaving several dead. The economic problems of the USSR in decline had lead to strong nationalisms and pulled to the first stage some of the hidden agendas that were not addressed during soviet times. Simultanously ethnic conflicts rose in many regions, North Ossetia and Ingushetia clashed, Azerbaijan and Armenia had an open war on Karabakh, Georgia was torn by a civil war between Zviadists and New government and ethnic conflicts all at the same time.

Mr Ardzinba, a nationalistic georgian-hater president of Abkhaz SSR, decided to take advantage of the political instability and push Abkhaz independence question on the first stage. At this moment of instability this was the most unconstructive stupid move one could make. The Georgian government, no brighter then its abkhaz counterpart, was not doing anything to attenuate the problems either. While Georgian voted in referendum for independence, Abkhazians voted for conservation of USSR in another Kremlin lead referendum. There was no communication anymore between parties.

The latent war had already started. The wide spread armed conflict indeed arose after Georgian Troops entered Abkhazia on august 14th 1992 to protect the railway on the request of Boris Eltsin himself and Ardzinba was perfectly aware of it. Then the first shot was fired, and followed the tragedy for both peoples. This war has many responsibles. Many on The Georgian but as many on the Abkhaz sides.

So, it is Georgia that started the war and created huge humanitarian catastrophy. And Georgian population fled before Abkhaz Army entered the occupied territories. You can read it UNPO's Abkhazia report.

You have to decide Dear Glenn: if Georgians left before the war how can they be accused of having fought in the conflict and by thus refused the right to go back?

You say yourself: Abkhazian society can allow the return only of those Kartvelians who did not fight on the Georgian side and only after they recognize Abkhazia as an independent state.

First of all who is Abkhazian Society? 82 % of Abkhazian society were Georgian, Russian, Estonian, Armenian, Greek and others. The ethnic cleansing was confirmed by both Budapest and Bucharest summits of European Union as Ethnic Cleansing and nothing else.

Another important fact to consider on the question of Kartvelian displaced persons is that their number is regularly exaggerated by the Georgian authorities. Some of them have never left Abkhazia and others never lived there.

According to the 1989 census there were only 239,872 "Georgians" living in Abkhazia. As i said, some of them never left Abkhazia and over 50,000 refugees back to Abkhazia. The questions is how possible 350,000 - 400,000 or 450,000 (as Saakashvili's claim) figures?

Another chauvinist reflexion Glenn. When 350 000 Georgia authorities include IDP's of all nationalities, including Abkhaz themselves. As for the number of 239.782 - that is a large number enough to consider Abkhaz authorities hands in crime against humanity.

It is important to note here that a great many of those who fled from Abkhazia were recent immigrants. They were partly victims of the compulsory resettlement organized by (Georgian) Stalin and his Abkhazian-born Mingrelian lieutenant Lavrenti Beria.

So you claim, these people were victims of Beria and not Abkhaz-Russian ethnic cleansing ? It would be the same if you said that Holocaust Jews were victims of Roman Empire and not Nazi Germany, as they were in fact resettled to Europe after Roman Empire had expelled them from their lands.

Good for you Mr Glenn, keep on going that way, it's straight to Nazi paradise.

Glenn-G on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

Glenn-G — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:35:30 +0000

It was Abkhazia which unilaterally decided to open the gates for the refugees to return to Abkhazia from Georgia in 1999. Georgia at that time was actually accusing these refugees of being traitors to Georgia.

By the way, some Georgians fought against to Abkhazians in Georgian side. According to the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees, those who use arms in an armed struggle and then flee do not fall under the international definition of refugees. The responsibility for these people fell and falls solely on the Georgian authorities. It is important to note here that a great many of those who fled from Abkhazia were recent immigrants. They were partly victims of the compulsory resettlement organized by (Georgian) Stalin and his Abkhazian-born Mingrelian lieutenant Lavrenti Beria.

Abkhazian society can allow the return only of those Kartvelians who did not fight on the Georgian side and only after they recognize Abkhazia as an independent state. And same right for return should be given also to descendants of Abkhazian refugees from the Caucasian War of the XIX century, who live mostly in Turkey.

aspecask on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

aspecask — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:26:51 +0000

Well, in 1992-1993 it were Georgians who started the war, it were Georgian tanks which entered Sukhumi - but were expelled by Abkhazians.

And this story of Georgian-Abkhazian tensions is as old as British/Irish one, and as bloody as Izraeli/Palestinian one

avaliani on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

avaliani — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:40:15 +0000

They should return also Losmira, if that is their wish. I have spoken to one Abkhaz from Turkey. They are sixth generation and he told me half of them have no idea where Abkhazia lies.

This woman in the article left her home 17 years ago. They have live memories, homes and dishes that stand and get dusty, or worse are getting sold to Russian vacationers.

Losmira on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

Losmira — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:15:07 +0000

Is there any justice ?
Th e answer to this I willbe more then happy to get!
Justice must prevail and starting from the ones who were expelled from a lovely Abkhazia more then 140 years ago.
Or it seems that human rights are just for one nation in the world , others must wait ?

avaliani on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

avaliani — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:36:41 +0000

A shocking apartheid rule reigns over Abkhazia. Some Kremlin clowns decide whether people should live in their homes or not. As the article shows, they do not allow even an Abkhaz woman, married to a Georgian man to return to her house. No different of Rwanda.

Two weeks ago the Human Rights officer of Abkhazia, Batal Kobakhia declared to Radio Svoboda that "georgians won't return to Abkhazia". The journalist mentioned the unapologetic expression on his face while he was deciding their fate. How more cynical one should get ? A HUMAN RIGHTS OFFICER Denying PEOPLE THEIR BASIC RIGHT TO THEIR LEGITIMATE HOME just because he despises their ethnicity.

And Russia is backing all this, happy to get military bases in South Caucasus, in exchange of personal tragedies like this one for some 239 000 citizen.

Is there any justice ?

John Smiths on "Zugdidi: Will I ever go back? "

John Smiths — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:55:13 +0000

All this Republics have their own presidents, own national flag, own parliaments, hymn and all other things that an independent state needs. These republics are not Russian linguistically, they have their own culture, traditions and religion.

Full independence for Russian colonies:

The Adygea Republic
The Tatarstan Republic
The Chechnya Republic
The Dagestan Republic
The North Ossetia
The Bashkortostan Republic
The Karelia Republic
The Altai Republic
The Kabardino-Balkaria
The Buryatia Republic
The Chuvash Rebublic
The Ingushetia Republic
The Kalmykia Republic
The Karachayevo-Circassian Republic
The Khakasia Republic
The Komi Republic
The Mari Republic
The Mordovian Republic
The Sakha Republic (Yakutia)
The Tyva Republic
The Udmurtia Republic

THEY DREAM ABOUT IT EVERY DAY.

It is only Putin's bloody regime, that does not tolerate freedom
of speech, makes them afraid to speak about this.
These republics are in fact independent, they are not
Russians and never want to be. Chechnya for example has
already issued a declaration of independence, that is one
step away recognition. How cynical can you be to demand
independence for regions in Georgia and not to allow this
for republics in Russia.

KundK on "Russia and the Georgia war: the great-power trap"

KundK — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 02:52:36 +0000

The original article is still fresh after one year.

To those who ask what Russia needs to do:
Russia needs to examine closely how the UK, most gracefully among the old colonial powers, became a middle-range power from the centre of an empire.

Vanes on "Russia/Georgia: War of the Web"

Vanes — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 00:49:16 +0000

Well, one may disagree with the author at some points, but one thing remains clear: the forum audience here is (almost?) exclusvely russian, because it has been translated to inoSMI. Coincidence? I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but didn't happen exactly what he has written? The article does not have to be heinous or biased - just bitter and critical - and there will always be many people zeaously defending themselves as not being manipulated, because ... well this is just how people work. Nobody thinks he's being manipulated. Let's just ask: anybody would consider russians to be neutral and unbiased about their own criticism? Hell no. The important message is this: if you can select the audience, you can effectively manipulate the reaction without directly manipulating anyone. Translating and linking an article is not good nor bad - but surely it is a form of selecting the audience.

alikos on "Russia/Georgia: War of the Web"

alikos — Sun, 24 May 2009 01:02:39 +0000

Где-то я уже похожее читал, причём буквально один в один... :)

Not logged in on "Georgia’s search for itself"

Not logged in — Tue, 19 May 2009 11:44:25 +0000

President Lincoln -- : "I do the very best I know how the very best I can and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right which is said against me won't amount to anything .If the end brings me out wrong ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference"