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Europhile? Fear the Vote? Just Chill!Posts: Joined: 2002-10-06
Dennis MacShane, the former British Minister for Europe was quoted in The Independent newspaper some days ago commenting on the situation in France. The most powerful statement in his article was also the least noticeable; it went something like, all those of us who love France
This Minister established a reputation for being an ardent European (perhaps the reason he was replaced after the recent election?). His seemingly innocent phrase is, for me, the main argument that the Eurosceptics fail to understand, and which will, I believe ultimately prove them wrong in a social, if not political sense. It is also the reason why the outcome of the Referenda will matter less than some think.
Most of the discussion has been about the political and technical implications of the Constitution and indeed of its rejection. It may well be true that there will be political turmoil in Europe for some time to come. It may even be that the cause of Europe will be put back by some years by which the doom-mongers still narrowly mean just one thing the POLITICAL cause. They fail to see that it is largely their own tunnel vision that has brought us to this impasse in the first place. But it will not be the end of a gradually-uniting Europe.
I do not envy the French and Dutch having to vote on the Constitution at this time because it is a terrible decision to have to make. I would probably vote Yes because pragmatically I can see that there are some very necessary reforms included in the Constitution, such as making the European Council vote in public, but I share the disappointment in the document as a whole. My only sympathy for the politicians comes from observing public awareness polls about E.U. issues. To say that the general public is ignorant and prejudiced is a huge understatement. My concern is that people all over Europe do not know the first thing about what they are supposed to be voting on. There is undoubtedly an element of the population that has taken the trouble to identify the real issue, but the vast majority of No coverage I have read has been about anything BUT an accurate discussion of the actual document in question. For example, the French seem to dislike Section 3, but not to realise that this is almost totally lifted from earlier treaties under which they have lived, apparently happily, for decades.
I suppose you could say that this failure to see the real issue is the fault of the politicians too, for the reason that I outlined earlier.
There have been several recent contributors to this strand asking What is the E.U. for? in the sense of why bother? The obvious answer to this is why NOT bother? I dont subscribe to the there is no choice approach, but even in a narrowly political sense, what do they envisage instead? A Europe of competing nation-states with all the tensions that this has engendered in the past? (Remember, you have to go back at least to the 1930s to observe a non conflict-ridden, non-E.U. version of that
) How else do they see the small, but populous and powerful political units in our crowded part of this planet resolving their differences and common problems in todays world? I am not saying that a Europe of nation states could never work - after a fashion - but it would be hugely inefficient and disjointed. There would have to be some interaction in any case how else would issues such as trans-border atmospheric or river pollution be resolved, let alone the tensions caused by immigration or the divide-and-rule inclinations of the trans-nationals? The fact that intra-E.U. backbiting still exists only indicates how much worse it would be with no supranational co-ordination, and only national diplomacy to fall back on.
However, even this is not the real reason for Europe. As Dennis MacShane inadvertently illustrated, too many Europeans now have what might best be described as a love for their continent and its constituent nations, for us ever to separate fully again. Even many who claim Eurosceptic credentials are in fact avid Europeans: they do often love those countries and peoples that they have come to know in recent decades. They regularly visit without visas and God-knows-what; they buy homes or even emigrate to those countries; they bring back unlimited quantities of purchases made in those countries and they have lasting friendships there. Even the insular British were captivated by the (admittedly romanticised) Europe of Peter Mayle and his imitators, and the recipients do acknowledge the revitalisation of their declining villages that resulted. We are all increasingly aware of what is going on in each others countries thanks to the Internet and ironically, even the blasted referenda have resulted in intense media coverage of each others countries even here in Europhobic Britain.
Even if the politicians are ignorant of it, a successful social Europe is slowly, hesitantly being built around them. Many dissent or are ignorant, but this is no different from their outlook towards their own domestic affairs. Conservatives will always be inward-looking nationalists, but I for one am not about to let them, nor any failed Constitution deprive me of the life-enhancing links I have with France, Switzerland, Italy, Germany and others. Disagreements and misunderstandings between individuals will naturally abound, but they are being worked through in forums like this one, and gradually accommodations are being found. Jan Freijsers eloquent explanation of his thinking over the Vote is a case in point. There is persuasive evidence that each new generation contains a growing number who see themselves as European, and when the generation that was prejudiced by the War finally dies out, this will take a leap forward.
The technocrats and politicos may miss the point; they may carry on their narcissistic obsessing about the political niceties, but it is nonetheless MacShanes simple but humane love of his fellow Europeans, their countries and their cultures that is the real driver behind this process; I, for one knew instantly what he meant. This has a long course to run probably generations but no inward-looking sceptic nor political referendum defeat can even come near the depth of instinctive feeling in that part of the population receptive to a basic communal human desire to comprehend and share culture with our nearest and in some senses, long-lost neighbours. That, not cynical politicking, is how to build a real European Union.
Submitted on Sun, 2005-05-29 19:00
And besides, it's been done on other continents.
And much, much better, too.
Re: And besides, it's been done on other continents.
I agree with Sandistock...
I'd also like to add that (in my opinion) an extra reason for the French vote, and inpopularity of the EU in other member states, has to do with the fact that local politicians tend to blame Europe for 'all problems they can't sort out themselves'...
Here in Belgium, when the farmers or fishermen angrily protest - Belgian politicians blame Europe...
We can't tax our highways - Belgian politicians blame Europe (wich isn't even fully true in fact!)
Our industries move to China and East-European states - Belgian politicians blame Europe (in stead of making reforms themselves!)
Most of the decisions Europe has made so far are perfectly logical, and should be acceptable for all member states... However, most politicians don't explain them that way to their local population...
Local politicians almost never speak of Europe in a positive way, as it is more convienent to blame Europe for everything that locally goes wrong and they can't manage to solve..
When Europe does imply a very popular measure, local politicians tend to take credit for it, without spending much time explaining it as a European decision...
If people would have more feeling with the EU, and if European politicians would put more efford in bringing the union closer to the population, things might be different... Therefore, a referendum might not have been such a bad idea after all... It's a shame that people were not ready to vote and that extreme-left wing and right wing parties got the chance to manipulate them into voting emotionally...
As Sandistock said: the only future prospect Europe has, if we want to keep peace and welfare - is a united, or at least closely cooperating one! At the end, this will be the reason why Europe will grow closer, and might eventually unite...
Regards,
Roelovich
Message was edited by: netschaap
Re: Europhile? Fear the Vote? Just Chill!
Why are the Europhiles (perhaps better described as 'Euro-fascists'), be they posters on Open Democracy, Eurocrats in Brussels, the political elite, or the voices in the media, not listening, and much less hearing and understanding the voices which are raised in opposition ?
I cannot count the number of times I have read things like -: To say that the general public is ignorant and prejudiced is a huge understatement. My concern is that people all over Europe do not know the first thing about what they are supposed to be voting on. So the logic of such an attitude is that the people should not be allowed a say at all, or all who oppose the cherished 'dream' ought to be 're-educated'. It is the arrogant, patronizing attitude which underpins this comment which lies at the heart of what is wrong with the present Europe.
The present European dream is the wrong dream in the wrong time. It is time to look again at what we actually want and how it is best achieved. It is also time that the Europhiles put aside their narrow minded and intolerant 'internationalist xenophobia' and began to engage in what the real issues are. They could begin by having more respect for those of opposing political philosophy. The tragedy is they are not listening, much less understanding.
Re: Europhile? Fear the Vote? Just Chill!
The tragedy is that no matter how much pro-Europeans do listen, concede points of clear weakness and propose alternatives, disingenuous anti-Europeans always fail (or should that be choose not?) to see it.
The fact that the previous writer chose to lump such disparate groups as posters on Open Democracy, Eurocrats in Brussels, the political elite, or the voices in the media together shows his utter contempt for anyone who does not share his own monarchist/nationalist/patrician outlook, it is rich of him to accuse others of similar disregard.
And the main reason is clear; beneath their bluster about 'alternative' or 'reformed' Europes, such sceptics have no wish to see anything other than the complete destruction of any kind of European order, except perhaps as a free trade bloc that would not necessarily be any more 'democratic' than the present one - and without some restraints on business, probably less so. Consequently they have no real interest in any kind of give-and-take discussion. They are the real fundamentalists; they are the ones who never shift their position or concede anything no matter how well argued; they are the ones who see the issues only as black and white; they are the ones who constantly mis-represent issues, as the previous writer is adept at doing himself.
This is not the process of reasoned and democratic argument. I will quote one example: his quotation of my previous post selectively criticises my observation on public ignorance but totally ignores my addition that there was also clearly a section of the public that had diligently researched before making its decision. His so-called 'logical' conclusion from my words beggars any understanding of the word I have - or has he simply not condescended to read me carefully enough?
I categorically did not say that the European electorate needs to be 're-educated', but that it needs to be educated in the first place. I am not - and clearly was not - talking about political brainwashing, but simply the provision of accurate information about what the E.U. really is/does/how it works, the utter dearth of which I have witnessed at first hand on several occasions over the past weekend alone. Furthermore, 'The Sunday Telegraph' yesterday pedalled some complete untruths about the E.U. in its editorial, while a public poll in 'The Independent' revealed utter self-confessed ignorance of European issues on the part of those it interviewed. There are distinct signs that the French actually know little more when it comes to, since a number of the No campaigns key points were FACTUALLY INCORRECT, or at best misrepresentations of existing treaty arrangements. I am not arguing for some kind of political correctness, but simply that such inaccuracies be corrected in the interests of a balanced public debate. Interpretations may legitimately vary, the facts not. If that is too unreasonable for the sceptics, then I am forced to question their commitment to the notion of an INFORMED debate at all. But then, they automatically assume that 'informed' will mean 'anti', when the evidence points to the contrary, so it is not surprising they are scared of REAL debate.
I suppose I should have learned not to rise to Owly's taunts: it is typical of him that my observations about the vote should have been distorted - I explicitly stated that the vote result should stand and NOT be fudged. I don't see that as denying people a say; if he had actually bothered to understand my regular and consistent argument, he would see that I argue for MORE not less democracy in Europe, but that it should be INFORMED democracy, not the ignorance that suits his case so well at the moment. Is it beyond him to read my use of the word 'concern' as meaning a concern for democracy, not just a cynical political manoeuvre?
I utterly reject his point about respect - if anything he should have enough respect not to wilfully distort others' posts just to make his own, often factually inaccurate 'points'.
And I am still waiting to hear more about this miraculous 'other Europe' of which he talks a lot. I actually agree with him on the principle of this, not that he seems to have noticed; I too think that Europe needs to develop into something more 'of the people', but I don't think that the wanton destruction of what we already have is the best way forward. However, I am still waiting for any elaboration of what his 'other Europe' actually is; unlike me he has yet to provide much detail on what his alternative ideas actually are.
I wonder why.
Re: Europhile? Fear the Vote? Just Chill!
The 'Euro-fascist' have conceded nothing and learned even less. They are busy with their lies even now. The people of France have said 'no' to your dream, and I hope the people of Holland will do likewise and the people of Britain too.
I have sketched out a view of a New Europe, free from much of the ills which plagues this one. But it is a Europe based firmly on the Nation State and mutual and free co-operation.
Your vision of Europe was rejected by the people. It is time YOU looked again at the nightmare you have been busy creating.
Oh and if you object so much to the Sunday Telegraph editorial write them a letter and explain why.
Re: Europhile? Fear the Vote? Just Chill!
Not so - I suggest that you go back to all my previous posts and this time actually bother to read them! What is most notable about your responses is that you pick up on one or two possibly loose phrases in an opponent's writing and distort them out of all proportion.
This was especially noticeable last time when you actually made no comment at all about the main tenor of my post - because I suspect that you actually have no answer to it. What is more, despite our previous long and complex discussions both on this site and elsewhere, I see that your understanding of my viewpoint has not advanced one iota - and nor has your ability, in the interests of a considered discussion, to concede even the smallest point. Yours is the absolutist, patrician no-compromise, I-always-know-best outlook that ultimately betrays its own weakness - for no argument is as clearly black and white as you seem to think. At no point have you had the insight, let alone the grace, to concede that your opponents (me or otherwise) might have even the smallest point in their favour. And you have the nerve to claim the moral high ground of democracy! Assuming you are right about the dictatorial intentions of the Eurocracy, you are a loss to its ranks!
You dismiss my views as 'Euro-fascist', which I would have thought is just about as inappropriate a word as you could find. You cannot see through your hatred of anyone who, in your eyes does not display due deference to our nation, its institutions and its monarch, and consequently you haven't even begun to understand my real argument. Hence the blocking tactics.
Please note that people have not rejected 'my' model, since the model as it currently exists is not 'mine' anyway - I have always argued in favour of a progressive and necessary evolution of the E.U. into something more socially meaningful. It is also worth noting the large numbers of No voters who have gone on record saying that they were not voting against Europe as such, just one treaty over which they had doubts, or against the domestic mis-representation of such - Jan's recent post is a case in point. Pretty good expression of democracy at work, I would have thought - at least if it hadn't been so evident that the No vote was campaigning on largely spurious grounds.
The 'nightmare' scenario is in your mind only - as is the fact that I have in some way been creating it. It is your nightmare alone because you realise that any form of progressive Europe - be it the present politics-only model, or the more social one that I advocate - marks the end of the redundant elitist, monarchist-hereditary system in Britain - the one for which you are an arch apologist.
The irony is that your supposed Europe of nation states and my preference for a socially integrated Europe are not necessarily incompatible; the problem is that you don't really believe in any such thing or you would have recognised this; nor would you have felt the need to misrepresent what the E.U. already stands for - unless you are more ignorant of the facts that I believe. You are actually just disguising your contempt for non-British world-views in these terms.
Re: Europhile? Fear the Vote? Just Chill!
The E.U. Constitution is a much spoken about document but, I believe, little read. To vote no to the constitution is not to denigrate the EU or the voting public as much of the elite would have it, rather that the voter is aware of the contents of the third section, the section which deals with neo-liberalism and raises such an ideology above social cohesion and social dignity. Surely a constitution should be document that safeguards rights and liberties, whether social or indiidual, not something which puts the tenets of extreme rampant capitalism before all else.
I see the result as similar to the referendum vote in Australia, the question was asking whether the voting public wanted a republic; yes or no. However, there was only one model on offer, many wanted a republic - desperately, but were unwilling to sanction 'the model'. Is this not so in Europe, I would imagine that the voting public want to be EU citizens, tht is to be active citizens, debating openly, voting on ideas, having a say; not being given merely a neo-liberal model to give the nod to. Finally, when did Britain last hold a referendum of consequence, would it really have done so?
Alex Hand (Australia)
Re: Europhile? Fear the Vote? Just Chill!
a.hand,
Welcome. You are right that the EU Constitution is a little read document and I can tell you it is so badly written it does not warrant reading ! But I must disagree with the main thrust of what you are saying. The purpose of a Constitution is to define how power is exercised within a State (or the Golf Club !) and had the draft stuck to what the original brief was it could have been done on a few sheets of A4. These powers etc are the base on which the thing works and would remain more or less as drafted because there would be a consensus about them.
When you talk about 'neo-liberalism' and 'social cohesion and social dignity' these are variable and changeable across political divides and across generations. What happened at the convention was many of these things were put in the document which displeased English Tories like me, and upset French socialists, which is why there is so broad a coalition against the thing.
As to Britain we were asked about the EEC in 1975. The Government plans to shelve the referendum vote here because it served its purpose. It removed Europe as an issue from the recent General Election. But I would add this. A recent poll in Germany found that with a sample of 360000+ 90%+ would vote 'NO'. Here a similar poll showed a 'NO' vote of 80%. For 30 years we have had 'ever closer Union', but if the Euro-philles (or Euro-fascists as I provocatively call them) had been sure of their case they would have asked the people at every step of the way and carried the people with them. Democracy had no real place in their brave new world. The people have shown over the last decade they have had quite enough of that arrogance.
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