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gender in the middle eastPosts: Joined: 2005-12-24
[quote=abdulksaida]but later i will tell u why women are strong even with their weakness.[/quote]
Ok missy, I wait for an explanation here.
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 00:38
women are the same all over the middle east
candace 1- i wrote u a long response, then unfortunately the page turn to another one, really sad, but i will try to say that i put my self into trouble when i said that women are strong even they are weak , as now i bare the responsibility to respond to u. 2- I said that in the context of defending iranian womens whom iron mike accused iranian president of opssessing women. I said they are not opssesed and sometimes little opseesion is good as that women like to feel that she is for one husband who take care of her. sometimes i feel the west is much feeling sympathey about covered women and think that they are opssessed to wear it, but beleive me, if u did a poll , most of them wear it voluntary and enjoying it very much, at least under their cover, at homes, they will show all their buteay and wear even more than the actors wear publicly, but it will be inside their homes for only their families and close one or trust women , so they will enjoy obeying relegion and entertainment and really , and i dont know muslims husbands like that . 3- all womens are the same, even if they weak, but they can gain what ever they want, by showing their weakness, so the man will be proud and satisfied,and then he will give her what ever she wants, only dont fight with him about the strength and admit u are weak, as i beleive and i explain everything may be as my beleif tell me, we are the weakest part , but if we utilize it smartly, so we will be more strong, i will post this now then try to continue as iam afraid to lost it automatically
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 13:55
reply sorry i dont mean u
candace 1- you know i dont mean u , i mean iron mike, as defending muslims women, and i know that u are tolerant.
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 14:09
reply not only the dress will define the women
candace you know our personalities is not always defined by what we dress, but as always some of western always shame us and look to us in a bad way, ( i dont mean u ), i will tell u one of my last experience in montreal, which before i dont want to tell, but as u misunderstand me, i will say it to u now i went to cyber cafe in montreal, and one lady with her stick, and she seems educated and well took her stick and preserve a chair and then went to pay for the net before using it, i was before her, then i paid and went to my favorate places in front of windows as i dont like small lights ( romantic light) , i like intense light to see what iam doing at least, so the next computer to her was vacant and still she was paying and that computer was without chair and i bring the chair and that cafe daily iam going to it, so that lady looks bad to me as if she wants to kill me, even though i wear elegant cover and also wide pantaloon, which frankly our relegious men dont agree on that dress and some consider it not real good dress. any way bare my writings, i was sad and told her did i do anything wrong to u ? tell me please? she said why u bring the chair ? i told her where shall i sit ? shall i write standing. Really i went to the administration and asked them if i violate any rules of the cafe, and said no, so that lady refused to sit beside me and look to me bad and left the cafe without doing her work. sorry, only to tell u that we are as lay persons, muslim women have this point always when others look to us, and that is for the others candace and not for u specifically, as i know u and u know me, so dont take it personally, our discussion is for the public. eventhough really iam sorry if u feel offensed which i dont mean . That is only for western men who always critise us for wearing scarfs .
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 14:19
reply 
There is some truth that
There is some truth that woman's power is in her softness. Abdulkasaida, Is it possible that it is softness rather than weakness, that you speak of? Being soft and humble, is not the same as being weak.
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 15:46
reply sofnesst vs weakness
L.W.
1- yes woman are soft as it is known to everyone, and also weak creatures as science approve that . physically, emotionally, and others. If our strength is the same, why compitions and races are seperate, as of course their is difference in leverl of strength.
2- It is not a shame to admit that we are the weak part, and beleive me some men admire us and our weakness.
3- i thought yes all womens are the same from all over the world, but after this discussion, i think culture play role and background also to change this fact considerably. i think western woman dont like to accused of weakness as we can admit without any feeling of low degree. by the way, always i remind others that pls iam weak so dont abuse my weakness, but unfortunately u will find in every society whom dont listen. ( our society which i mean as i will not be considered as offense to any one ).
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 18:02
reply .
'all womens are the same, even if they weak, but they can gain what ever they want, by showing their weakness, so the man will be proud and satisfied,and then he will give her what ever she wants, only dont fight with him about the strength and admit u are weak, as i beleive and i explain everything may be as my beleif tell me, we are the weakest part , but if we utilize it smartly, so we will be more strong, i will post this now then try to continue as iam afraid to lost it automatically
Candace,
Why offensive? I see wisdom in some of those words, particularly the part of how being weak and accepting one's weakness can empower you over those who are stronger.
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 17:41
reply .
[quote=abdulksaida]'all womens are the same, even if they weak, but they can gain what ever they want, by showing their weakness, so the man will be proud and satisfied,and then he will give her what ever she wants, only dont fight with him about the strength and admit u are weak, as i beleive and i explain everything may be as my beleif tell me, we are the weakest part , but if we utilize it smartly, so we will be more strong, i will post this now then try to continue as iam afraid to lost it automatically[/quote]
[quote=Chris]Candace,
Why offensive? I see wisdom in some of those words, particularly the part of how being weak and accepting one's weakness can empower you over those who are stronger.[/quote]
What female weakness are you talking about? How do you recomend women accept this weakness? And how would accepting it empower (please explain what you mean by empower) women over those who are stronger, (men, right?)
abdulksaida,
What is this strength women need to be admitting they lack so that men can feel proud and satisfied and then joy of all joys we will get what we want. ( that would be sarcasm)
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 20:30
reply 
-----
Hi abdulksaida, "but they can gain what ever they want, by showing their weakness, so the man will be proud and satisfied,and then he will give her what ever she wants, only dont fight with him about the strength and admit u are weak"
abdulksaida,
I think in some aspects of life, women are stronger than men and in some other part of life, men are stronger. But man and woman are equal but not identical. my first question to you is, sorry dont feel any pressure, why should women have to somehow work on themselves to satisfy men? And my second question is what do you mean by 'weakness' of women? sorry, I just read your first post. if you have answered that question, later in a different post, you dont have to answer. :)
Submitted on Thu, 2007-10-18 18:40
reply salam
cyromax
1- yes in some aspects of life women are stronger than men as they bare children , suffer in their raise, delivery and do many works especially the western women as i think , she is under much stress of taking care of everything. yes some womens are much stronger than men, but in generalization , no the women is the weakest part, yes they are complimenting each other.
2- yes they are equal in sight of God and both have responsibilities towards each other , but generally speaking the good man have to take much responisibility from his wife more than she has to take and that why he is stronger as a defender to the family .
3- also i didnt understand well what u said as women have to work on theirselves to satisfy men, but i think wifes have to work on themselves to satisfy their husbands and if those husbands are good morals , so they will give back this tax to their wives, i mean if iam loyal and faithful to my husband, so i supose he have to be the same, and really if he is good beleiver and relegious , so i will gain, so also if the husband is satisfied , so he will give his wive what ever she wants, it is mutual benefit and no shame of that.
4- You know meaning of weakness in everythig, e.g the widow women feel very weak even if she considered by others strong and why to show weakness, but i read recentely for a relegious man that 2 are the more weakest in the world , they are the orphants and women, ( widow)and he said that even if that widow is nervous , or have some aggressive characters, but he say she is the weakest as she lost her only person with used to and so she is weak even if others saw the reverse, so may be even her lost husband used to love her and appreciate her.
5- You know that in our tradition , that prophet mohamed (pbuh) said that persons who take care of poor people and widows is like the one who struggle for the sake of God , i mean like mojahed and i dont want other posters to misintrepret it as also jihad is encouraged to us not as they think, it is also to take care of poor people. sometimes others make the life for the widow more complex and sorry to say even our muslim brothers are lacking of our comprehend of our great relegion. They dont apply what prophet mohamed tell them . I hope i answer, but later after reading the article send by L>W i will try to respond more .
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 09:20
reply
Abdulkasaida, I
Abdulkasaida,
I abselutely understand what you are saying and there is a lot of truth in it but also some illusion. Womem are not weak, they are just strong in a different way, just like men are weak in a different way. I'd say that men and women are equally weak and strong but they have different way of thinking and different way of being weak and strong.
As for women getting what they want by being weak, I don't know ... if women try to get things by being weak they surely pay other kind of price for it. There is a cultural difference from country to country. In the US I guess people first view each other as equl human beings and then as men and women and it wasn't always like that- women had to fight for that here and if you ask me American women get a lot more that way. Once the American woman gets what she provides for herself as a human being and then she gets what her man provides for her for being a woman. It's an illusion to think that if a woman acts as an individual ouside her gender she will stop being a woman inside her gender. Men will never stop providing for their women regardless of weather they chose to cover their face or not. Religion is a somewhat sexist tool which empowers men over women. It's created by men to serve men. But I agree that if woman lost her femininity ... she's lost the best of herself.
Submitted on Fri, 2007-10-19 04:33
reply .
Abdulkasaida
You'll have to forgive Candace, she suffers from what can only be described as Western women's inferiority complex which causes those afflicted to become indignant and defensive at the first whiff of what they perceive to be sexist behavior. To say it's complicated would be an understatement.
Dearest Candace,
First off, my quote about how weakness can be used to empower oneself was non-gender specific, as it applies to everyone - not just weak women, but never being one to back down from a fight.
The weakness of women in our society is manifold, from the economical, political, and social weakness of women in comparison to men, to the way in which our culture both values and attributes the characteristics of gender.
Submitted on Fri, 2007-10-19 15:47
reply .
Chris,
Yes, I knew your quote wasnt gender specific, but you were commenting on a quote from abdulksaida which was, so I thought I might as well ask you a few questions.
Submitted on Fri, 2007-10-19 23:20
reply candace is my friend
chris
1- Really i find difficult to understand the last 2 lines of what u said , for candace i know she is my friend and i like discussing with her and as u know different culture and way of thinking affect. I appreciate her so much and many times i take her advices.
2- candace also i will try to respond to u again for the weakness, but after may be i will read some articles or gain new information. thanks for u condolescence , really i appreciate that.
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 09:04
reply
Well, oD published an
Well, oD published an interesting read which is relevant to this thread to certain extend. This article reveals one side of women's vulnerability and it also gives a clue about why women must continue to maintain a level of empowerment strong enough to enforce laws which keep the beasts behind bars. http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/democracy_power/5050/tackling_rape
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 03:58
reply thanks
L.W. 1- thanks for the link,i have to print the article then read it, as really i dont like read from screen. It seams in all ages we need papers and not only computers. 2- After reading i will try to respond, as u say their are many differences in cultures and many factors contribute to the role or women in ME and even in the west and all over the world.
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 08:59
reply
-----
Hello abdulksaida,
salam to you too. :-) abdulksaida, I am not muslim. I have changed my last USERID because people misrepresented me of who I am, thinking, thats my name. Although that ID has some meaning, which I wont share in here. However, I have a tons of
muslim friends. :-)
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 15:53
reply some clarification
Cyromax
1- first sorry, i dont know why i think u r muslim, as really i forget , but before i know from candace that u id changed from zamantheman if iam not wrong, as u know majority of women have short memory and i admit that , that is the weak thing in women and because of that we are muslim womens have half testinomy not like men. as 2 women equals 1 man in witness at judje, because of our forget . any way that is not our discussion.
2- i said some women are strong, but majority are not and that is a fact, not only by delivery or another thing , but i also mean the women also bear kids while she is weak and bare it , she is sometimes more patient than the man in giving passionate to kids and family, many things which the man considered it a weak points to him, but at the same time it is considered as strong element to women.
3- i mean if she is strong in some elements of life, that doesnt make her the strong partner in other important issues in family life.
4- for u question as why the women have to be loyal first and why to work on her selve more which i dont know what u mean to do extra to men ? clarify it more to know . may be as we are tought that to respect our husbands and i think it contribute to our relegion as we know that the women will enter paradize if she died while her husband is satisfied with her, and also our husbands is our hell or paradize, and i think that contributes much to our way of treating our men.
4- yes , i agree that our society liked women to stay home and really many womens likes to sit home , i have my cousine doctor who have all capabilities to work, and prefer to sit home after all her studies and raise her kids and went with her husband to contiune studying in america then return back and take care of her kids even she was holding PHD. i saw our mothers and grandmothers were more happy than today women, and they really raise their kids good and happy. i feel women sitting at home are more productive than only working outside. Even the working women after few years of work, prefer her family and sit home and let the husband do his work outside , it is more comfortable and the essential message of man is to work outside and women to be at home.
5- for point 4 i will go back to see what i wrote then respond as now i cant see what i wrote and i forget.
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 19:37
reply women , men and rape
L.W 1- i read the article somehow speedy, and the subject is interesting, but as u know i will explain everything differently from u or other posters, i dont think many will agree with me. 2- As my background is different and my culture also, so if i understand the article, it tickle upon a serious problem which of course need a solution to prevent raping of women and i think that is the main topic discussed. 3- i think sympathy of jury or most of cases of rapists are not sentence to guilty because those juries have some sympathy or understanding the condition of why raping is happen at the first level? i think they know that the dress of semi naked women, sound, way of walking and perfume and her clothes attributes to rape, so why not to solve the problem by at least women themselves protect themselves by wearing decent clothes which willl not show their beauty for strangers then no rape would occur. 4- In my opinion as i know it is the women first whom is responsible for raping if she wears attractive clothes and sexy one so why then she blame the man for following her and raping? sorry to say that , but it is the fact. 5- i will qoute this from a book called what do u know about islam? in women clothes as the writer said" because the women means a lot to the man both sexually and otherwise, islam pay a great attention to the woman's appearance so that the woman may not cause continuous sexual excitement to men. These are the requirements of the woman's dress worn in public for muslims women i mean 1- dress must cover all her body except hands and the face 2- it must be thick and opague so as not to reveal the skin color and the form of her body parts. 3- It must be loose so as not to show the shape and size of her body. Skin-tight clothes are not allowed in islam. 4- it must not be so attractive or seductive. Bright colors, bold designs, reflective dresses, adn perfume are not the right things for a muslim woman. 5- Her clothing must differ from men's clothing. 6- her clothing must not be vain, ostentatious, very showy, excessively expensive, or excessively tattared. The purpose of all these regulations regarding women's dressing is to cool down sexual excitement in public, close the doors to excessive sexuality outside marriage, protect the family and marriage institution against seduction and enticement, and protect both men and women from public sexual excitement and eventual adultery.
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 19:04
reply
Abdulksaida,This article
Abdulksaida, This article far does not discuss just rape from a stranger. It discusses rape in general by man overpowering a woman which is a common practice in the Middle East also where arranged marriages are part of every day life. If a woman has to marry a man she is not in love with and does not want to have sex with but she still does out of obligation then she is being raped. Every time a woman has to perform sexual act against her will is rape no matter if it is on the street or at home. That is why I believe the article suggests that men are the ones who must take matter in their hands and fight against this statistically high tendency to rape women both revealed and covered. We are talking equally rape from a stranger on the street and rape from abusive husband at home in a hosehold where a woman is the weak and submissive. To say that women in the west are being raped because they reveal their beauty is the same as to say that women in the Middle East are being raped because they do not stand up against arranged marriages which humiliate and belittle their dignity as human beings.
And please don't tell me that women in the middle east like being raped in arranged marriages because after that "they get things" or because they please god by being submissive. Obviously the dress code you speak of didn't help the woman on the picture below and other thousands of women in a position like her in the middle east. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6196716.stm
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 19:44
reply misunderstanding
L.W. 1- first i will answer from the last point, as i married my beloved husband by arranged marriage, also my brother who spend 26 years in america working marry an arranged marriage and most of us marry like us without raping or anything, it is misconception that arranged marriage are sort of raping 2- yes our culture is different totally than yours and our way of thinking also and what is good for us may be not suitable for u society , that is also tolerance. may be yes our relegion plays much in submissive and that is not shame anymore, so marriage dont depend only on beauty of women to have a succsfull marriage , for us asking about the family name, morals of the family and the girl and manythings and also the shape , but we dont give it much importance. 3- you said sometimes rape happend to the wife in the same home, even in the west it happend and yes may be in our society but even if it is not arranged marriage, but as i told u we learn that if the husband needs his wife statly , she has to obey him if she is not sick or she dont complain , i mean to try her best, but not by force, and the husband has to understand , i dont know , we are encouraged to be more flexible and try not to fobid from their needs and yes we will be rewarded from God and no shame of that and that is our beleive and what we study.
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 19:55
reply afgani women
L.W. 1- for afgani women and their dresses which u said didnt prevent them from rape, it is not rape darling it is arranged marriage and what happend after it depends on each family and what happende to afgani women it is not happende for all ME womens also , so why u r angry , it is some families are doing that whom are ignorant and if they were known really their relegion , they will not enforce their daughters to marry. arranged marriage not all bad, if the husband is good even if it is arranged it will continue, so it is the same as any marriage by anyway . 2- why always some cases abused happened to women , the media of the west exagerate it as if all womens in ME are raped by their husbands , it is not true, 3- also why the western men didnt help those women and all were not in the side of the women, i can help those afgani women by teaching their families and letting them know that what they are doing is not relegion and it is not obeying God. it is bad marriage by forcing, but it is not popular in the whole ME only in some poor vilages whom dont know anything even about relegion.
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 20:38
reply
abdulkasaida
abdulkasaida I dress in western revealing clothing every day and I have never been sexually abused and I don't think my moral is any lower than that of a woman who covers herself. I don't think the point is about the women who have not been raped, we talk about those who have been raped so why do you deflect from that? The main point thou is not you in particular or me in particular. In the article rape is being discussed in general in any society. Rape in arranged marriages is not misconception - it is a fact of reality. You tried to say that rape is only the fault of women who reveal themselves and I disproved that statement by bringing facts directly from the Middle East for the ineffectiveness of Burqa in protecting a woman from being overpowered by a man for the purpose of rape. Moreover, If we speak of moral strength I find that men who apply control over their impulses in the presence of a woman, who reveals her beauty, indeed are men who have highly moral personality. If men in a society cannot contain themselves when viewing a pretty woman then their moral must have a very weak influence on their behavior. That's why I think that the concept of Islam being the best example of high moral values is an overstatement given that it promotes the notion that men actually cannot control themselves and that is why they have to put the whole burden on women and rape occurs in the Middle East as it does anywhere else. Also it is interesting to note that when it comes to outer appeal very often men find the eyes of a woman to be the most sexual and seductive part of her body. So even thou women in the Middle East cover themselves from head to toe, they still leave their eyes revealed. In that train of though I believe that the moral of a person is reflected in their actions, and not in how much skin they show, or look at. The rape statistics world wide show that indeed women are weaker than men, but it also shows that women's weakness should not be used to promote slave mentality as a normal state of being for women. And indeed any woman who is being forced to marry and forced to marry a man she doesn't want is being raped. A 15 years old girl given against her will to a 40 years old men and thus forced to have sex is not just a woman but also a CHILD who is being raped.I hope my point of view does not offend you. It is just a point of view.
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 21:24
reply
I think what commonly
I think what commonly attracts people is complimentary strengths and weaknesses, but that doesnt always follow gender stereotypes and successful marriages will adjust to that, because it doesnt matter who takes care of what, just that it's done so that the house runs smoothly and then you can enjoy each others company. Being locked into household duties in a marriage, under the authority of a man (or woman) because youre told to, or society says that is your only option will be a source of unnecessary friction in particular if individual strengths dont match the assigned role. Over here, we choose a partner not for the sake of how a man can take care of us, (in the way that you describe it) but for the potential quality companionship; that is how I see it anyhow. I The message I am hearing from you beyond that a mans behavior is a womans responsibility, is that men will always be strong one way and women strengths will always be weak in comparison. That reality of what youre saying is that men deserve to be in charge of a woman. He can be as intolerant and unreasonable as he wants but she has to stay calm and never argue. If not she might have to be reminded of his strength. If society says that a woman in so many ways is responsible for a mans behavior, or the caretaker of morality, then there is very little to support a woman who was unlucky enough to marry someone who has a bad temper and irrational no matter how submissive she is, and being submissive should not be a marriage problem solving technique. no woman should have to live a life like that in order to preserve tradtion and forever be blamed for the inadaquacies of the man and whatever misery he inflicts on the family. I want you to know that I understand youre saying that admitting weakness, or being subservient to a man is a way of showing feminine dignity in the middle east, and that men have respect for that over there. (of course) so it couldnt be a bad thing, right?
Submitted on Sat, 2007-10-20 22:40
reply dont be sad
dear candace
1- As iam in a hurry, and i dont want u to be sad , but happy, as u have excellent memory and that is the aim of 2 womens witness for one man, as now u helped me and remind me of what i forget , so 2 works better than one women and that is not shame as women are usually more buzy than men and works at home, eventhough i know u are very hard worker and have excellent memory, so i u gave me and remind me and that is exactly candace what is written in quran, that if one forget about anything while testinomy , so the other women will remind her, and no depiction or anything , at least to find another to support and as u know testinomy is so difficult and if we wrong any innocent person , it is so dangerours, so at least our conscious will be calm. sorry i dont mean u personnaly , i know u intenlligent , but iam not like that always as normal.
2- also the law will not be for me and u only , but also it shows reminding only and we are women like discussing and talking together.
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 05:00
reply L.W.
1- we dont deflect from the subject when we talked also about not raped women as to know the difference and to compare . Many of my releatives and beloved friends whom wearing western clohes and i dont suspect for a minute that they have good morals as covered women, it is not like that , only God knows well and i respect them also.
2- Burga or even covered women for a sick man will not protect her, and that is very few if it happend , we are talking about wide scale of rapping and also u dont have auhontic statistics about how many rapes occur in mE compared to how many occur in west .
3- why from the first women wants to attract other men if she is already married, you cant pour pertrol on fire and say no fire must not extinguish more, that is not the case, if a man see a beautiful women , it is usually difficult that he will not notice her and if she is semi naked it will be more difficult or suspect of him as a manhood. Yes also in our culture that men who lower their gaize and dont look to womens will have high ranks of morals and respect, but also our culture didnt encourage women to show their bueaty and asked men to stop looking, it is natural that the man may be need the women more than she needs him in intimacy.
4- darling l.w. do u want us also to cover our eyes and become blind and dont see anybody, even by burga they can see, in our culure we show our face and hands the same when we go the most holly place in the world which is meka and it is forbidden even for us to pray covering our face or doing pilgrimage with covering our face, so our eyes thanks God will remain open for ever. now with our clothes all the world against us, so how if we cover also our faces, we will be accused of more terriroism and suppreseve to womens.
5- yes even if women is covered so also acts are importants, both are importants for us, and no use only of wearing without morals, nobody completely perfect , we all try .
6- now in most of muslim countries they educate parents espcilly from villages that what they are doing is not the relegion, once i wrote that one women came to prophet mohamed (pbuh) asking divorce from her husband, he asked her if he abuse her, or torure her and asked for the reason of divorce. She didnt say anything bad about him and she said he is good, but i dont like him and she hates to become unbeliever after she believes in God, so he told her to return her dowery to him and let her divorce from him only because of love .
7- Did u ask L.W your self , why those judjes didnt give those raped women their wrights ?
continue later
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 15:24
reply intermission
dear candace
1- you let me go back to my old periods of life, as i like the second intermission which is playing with dumb called yedi , i dont have much background in music even i think i can give more nice in dumbing as most of palestininans weddings are using dumb with nice sound.
2- if once u attend arabic wedding, you will like it so much even if it is seperated, music played in these festivals are very nice especially with dumb and with songs. thanks for the intermission
talk to u later for other opinion.
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 20:31
reply about Chris...ominous music plays in background..
abdulksaida, Chris was saying >in his way< that he thought I overreacted to what you said, I misinterpreted what he said, and that he wasnt against what I was saying, or that we wouldnt have much to argue about, something to that effect.
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 02:52
reply
Abdulksaida,
I had a
Abdulksaida,
I had a big smile on my face while reading your last reply to Candace about the memory. I understood something very important about the thinking of a woman from the middle east. Peacefulness is a must, even with the price of a little illusion.
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 05:13
reply submission culture
L.W.
yes what you understand about us is generally speaking correct , we have a somehow submitting culture, as trying to accept what we are going through if it is out of our hand. We taught that we have to accept destiny good or bad and all from God, that may be even women belief that we have to be peacful and somehow listen to others and u know who others by now darling .
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 15:56
reply
-----
hey there abdulksaida, :-)
you seem to remember my USERID very well. See, you do have a good memory. :-)
"i said some women are strong, but majority are not and that is a fact"
abdulksaida, I am afraid there is a problem on your view. It could be that in some area women maybe stronger, and in some areas maybe men are, or they maybe equally strong at some areas. but you are saying MOST of the women are "weak". do you see the difference? If you say that, then you have to define, what do you mean by "weakness" And it cannot be some examples to back your claim. Then I will have to give you examples where women are strong, which will NOT prove your claim, which is, "women are weak". :-)
you go on to say:
"but i also mean the women also bear kids while she is weak and bare it , she is sometimes more patient than the man in giving passionate to kids and family, many things which the man considered it a weak points to him, but at the same time it is considered as strong element to women."
So what is the conclusion here? women are weak or strong? your initial claim was "women are weak". But then how do you justify your case, if you tell me it can be perceived in both ways? :-)
"i mean if she is strong in some elements of life, that doesnt make her the strong partner in other important issues in family life."
First, are you saying men are strong in most of the element of life? what are the important issues you are talking about? please clarify. :-)
"for u question as why the women have to be loyal first and why to work on her selve more which i dont know what u mean to do extra to men ? clarify it more to know"
lets go back:
thats because you said this:
"they can gain what ever they want, by showing their weakness, so the man will be proud and satisfied,and then he will give her what ever she wants"
CONTINUE
you said:
"may be as we are tought that to respect our husbands and i think it contribute to our relegion as we know that the women will enter paradize if she died while her husband is satisfied with her, and also our husbands is our hell or paradize, and i think that contributes much to our way of treating our men."
I agree that your husband should be treated respectfully, but that love must also come from opposite direction and this exchange is UNCONDITIONAL. It cannot be about money, sex, etc. I am telling you this, because, I have been deep into Asia (actually, I think the problem exist all around the world in more or lesser extent). Anyway, I dont like to generalize or I am not generalizing, but I have seen cases, where women were treated like an animal, but then women somehow have to accept it and do all her husband's work, as if he is some kind of god. The argument for the men who abuses women goes like this: "she needs to change her attitude which makes me beat her". If you dont mean it this way, I will pass :-)
"i agree that our society liked women to stay home and really many womens likes to sit home , i have my cousine doctor who have all capabilities to work, and prefer to sit home after all her studies and raise her kids and went with her husband to contiune studying in america then return back and take care of her kids even she was holding PHD."
I think it is important to distinguish between "choosing to stay home", "forced to stay home by husband" or is it given, that is "since you are women, you have to stay home, regardless". which one is it? please clarify.:-)
I have no problems if she is happy and chooses to stay home, but I wont accept any kind of "forcible attempts by men" and woman has to somehow accept and continue satisfying her men. I am sure you will agree with me with this one. In marriage, there are always problems, but you try to kinda get over it. Its part of life. non?
it is always good to hear from you. :-)
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 08:17
reply weakness vs strength
cyromax
1- frankly candace is the one who have good memory and not me, she was the one who remind me of your old ID , so i admit that to know the truth. Still i have some problems in memory so i need to ask others to confirm:-)
2- we have to define weakness and strength in many aspects , wheather, physically, emotionally, socially, so we are the one who put terms , but even if i say in some aspects women are storng and in some are weak , which not all women, but as iam a women generally women is weak pysically, emotionally and also socially, and becasue of that God gave us men to protect us if those men really are manhood and any man is a real man , do u get my point? we women in ME as i dont like women from the west to be upset from me, we are in ME have another philosophy and beleive which we raised to it since chilhood, but when also we grow , we find it not bad to depend on real men, and here sorry to say even i didnt find a real manhood from my husband family when i despretrely need help, and hoping one of them will read that, but still iam saying that women need strong man not in beating, shouting, but in beign a good one. i didnt find good man from my husband family to finish papers, but still beleive that still their are muslim good men. ( i dont mean anything for non muslim, only talking about my experience).
3- See cryomax, even if i said women bare kids or anything else, women are weak and need respect from the strong part and it is a must to take this support and it is not gentlement if women didnt get respect from them and help. even if u are not muslim , but we women in ME also have feelings and dream of men like prophet mohamed (pbuh) as before dying he told his companion the last speech about women and to take care of them and resemble them as a glass, if it is broken , it is difficult to fix. and also to bare them.
4- biologically we are more weak and even our moods are changing continuesly as changing hormones, men are more fixed in the level of their hormones, we undergo many changes during our life and even during the month which creat different way of act .
5- yes may be i gave u distorted or unclear image of my view of point, but we are weak creatures and pls understand that . now i remember one verse of prophet mohamed and that is for men of my family husbad( mercy on him ) that any man who is generous and kind with women is a genteleman and who abuse them or hurts them is an evil man ( its meaning ). Sorry that is for whom claiming muslims and dont apply it , and i hope they are few .
6- yes in some poor villages and uneducated men , they treat their wives not good and eventhough the wife will listen and admit, we have a culture of submission anyway rooted , many dont complain and keep quit an live their lives , they consider it destiny and trying and keep going. They think also they will be rewarded if they respect their husbands, and they wait God if they cant do anything. women in ME usually dont like to be divorced and can bare everything to keep her husband , it is a culture and ranging from country to another, may be some men exploit that thing and others not. I want to say not the relegion is bad , the people who practise it is bad or dont understand it well.
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 16:34
reply abdulksaida, I am
abdulksaida, I am continually struck by how what you say here would only be translated in the west as having a very poor self image as a woman, and in the middle east it is the only way of showing self respect as a woman.. I am very grateful that you are posting here, even though I've experienced something of a quiet horror while reading your posts concerning the roles of men and women in the middle east, and what she is supposed to accept...etc
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 18:43
reply .
[quote]they treat their wives not good and eventhough the wife will listen and admit, we have a culture of submission anyway rooted , many dont complain and keep quit an live their lives , they consider it destiny and trying and keep going. They think also they will be rewarded if they respect their husbands, and they wait God if they cant do anything. women in ME usually dont like to be divorced and can bare everything to keep her husband , [/quote]
I think that is tragic. So there isnt any way a woman can get out of an abusive marriage? How are muslim women treated in society after divorce? Do men usually get custody of the children regardless of the reasons for the divorce? Can a woman get a divorce and still have her children?
It would be devastating to have choose between living in a dangerous environment for yourself and your kids, and losing everything to someone who, because of culture, is able to behave like a monster and get away with it.
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 20:17
reply
Dear abdulksaida,
Good
Dear abdulksaida, Good morning, Thank you for your reply. I think I have to make my previous reply more clear. I often try to say more with less and leave my thought unclear to the reader, presuming they understand what I mean, but that is in most cases a mistake, so I will try to come back later today and explain myself and my thought in more datail because you deserve that attention from me as you are a very respectful lady. Now I really have to study for an exam but I will respond to you tonight (I hope )when I take a break from everything else. Enjoy your sunday
Submitted on Sun, 2007-10-21 15:32
reply
:-)
Dear Abdulksaida,
I just wrote a very long and thoughtful reply to you but I decided to delete it.
Suddenly I realized something. I actually do not want to argue your point of view. You seem so happy and peaceful with your point of view and life style that really any other aspect of this discussion does not matter that much. I do not want to put a shadow into the light on your side of the street.
I am happy, you are happy, and may God have mercy if that change for us in this "Men's" world.
Submitted on Mon, 2007-10-22 06:59
reply why darling to delete?
L.W
1- i feel sorry that u spednd some time writing u thoughtful point of view and delete it, or decide not to send, as if iam in your place i will send it , we are only sharing,and both of us knows deeply that we will not change , but at least to know the roots and how eastern women and western women reach to what both are convinced of , and that is only the case.
2- hoping if u can retreive u reply to send it and only to inrich and know how others are thinking and see us and to see how we also see the west. I think east and west will never meet , but at least to find a basis for understanding and leave each other live his or her way only without bad politics to interfer.
Submitted on Mon, 2007-10-22 12:15
reply
-----
Hello again abdulksaida,
hope you are doing well :-)
"we have to define weakness and strength in many aspects , wheather, physically, emotionally, socially, so we are the one who put terms"
I think it would be best to illustrate in a different way, maybe you can correct me if you see any problem.
Suppose, two students are writing exams (for argument sake). Suppose, they are doing two exams, say, Mathematics and Microeconomics. One got 100 in Mathematics and 50 in Microeconomics. The other got 100 in Microeconomics and 50 is Mathematics. But guess what? They BOTH got 150/200. Now suppose that those two students, one was a girl and one of them was a boy. But guess what, the score is SAME. Do you see the problem? :-)
you are keep giving me weak points in women and comparing to strong points of men and the conclusion always comes out to "women are weak". Which of course is not a fair game. In this case, you can’t compare girl's 50 in Mathematics with boy's 100 in Mathematics. You have to see the overall result. :-)
"but as iam a women generally women is weak pysically, emotionally and also socially, and becasue of that God gave us men to protect us if those men really are manhood and any man is a real man , do u get my point?"
It is always rewarding to have someone to protect you. but can you think of anything, where it maybe something that you are doing that can be rewarding for your husband. I am sure you can :-)
Again, abdulksaida, I wont quote you here, but as you need a man to help things around your house, similarly it is true in opposite direction as well. You are important, and your contribution should count as well :-)
On point number 3, I don’t know why you always seem to portrait women are some kind of "special" beings, when you said: "as a glass, if it is broken , it is difficult to fix. and also to bare them." But, hey, if you are happy in that way, I don’t see, why I should discuss about it. :-)
"yes in some poor villages and uneducated men , they treat their wives not good and eventhough the wife will listen and admit"
abdulksaida, I think you are making a mistake here. The problem doesn't ONLY exist in poor village and NOT ONLY by some "uneducated men". From my experience in traveling overseas, I do travel a lot, what I can tell you is, that problem ranges from a wealthy family to a poor family, to "uneducated" to an "educated" men, maybe the reason is different. So would that be "weakness" of men or "weakness of a woman"? Please do remember, it can be argued in different ways. :-)
"They think also they will be rewarded if they respect their husbands, and they wait God if they cant do anything. women in ME usually don’t like to be divorced and can bare everything to keep her husband , it is a culture and ranging from country to another, may be some men exploit that thing and others not."
Thank you for sharing. It is indeed not acceptable. :-)
Submitted on Mon, 2007-10-22 09:50
reply we are talking about ME genders and not west genders
cyromax
1- may be u will say that men and women are the same form all over the world, yes as we all created by one God, but our thinking is different, i mean u will keep saying that men and women are the same in some points and by the way i understand what u want to say as by adding all strong and weak elements in men and women so we will reach to the same score.
2- but the life or difference in women and men is not always calculations, it is something beyond that, yes their are some women who are stronger but i told u the majority , as by statistics women are weak in everything and that is not shame. Now i have to say sorry i will say our women in ME and even if they are weak , but also dont feel that shame as they are dont feel much bad in it, and you said that in your point of view u know some men treat their wives bad and that wive still do her husband work , so why? it seems may be she is not much upset of him or she can understand and also forgivable, here womens are fogivable to their husbands more than others in outside.
3- ok, if men and women the same, so why women in the west fight for some of their equality, why all that struggle? and tell now they didnt reach to what they want and not satisfied as till now no women ruler in America eventhough their were many muslims women leaders in bangladish, bakistan and some others.
4- 2 strongs persons in the family cant work, and i want to say that all families from childhood teach their kids that the girl is different and she is the weak and also asked from the boy to take care of his sister and just now nephews 3 kids quareel and one boy and 2 girls, spontaneously i told the boy dont beat them by phone they are girls and take care of them, the same my father was depending or at least advice the boy to take care of his siste. i want to say that is the culture in the ME and it works .
later to continue
Submitted on Mon, 2007-10-22 12:45
reply
AbdulksaidaI'd like to say
Abdulksaida
I'd like to say that I find your peaceful and tolerant style of sharing your point of view to be a rare thing. Most of the ladies form the ME whom I have talked to on this subject were more interested in indoctrination and confrontation rather than understanding. I appreciate that you present your thoughts with honesty without disrespecting the western point of view and without trying to indoctrinate the listener into your point of view. In return I'll try my best in doing the same for you.
Also, I 'd like to compliment your commitment to understanding in this conversation although English is not your native language and I know that you give a lot. English is not my native language also. I know the difficulties and I will try to convey my point of view with more clarity. What i wrote in last night was a long detailed note but in short what I wanted to say is : If the physical power of all men is put together and opposed to all of the physical women's power in the world, men will physically overpower women. When living in a society that is built on the idea of justice, to have balance there must be humane laws that ensure that the physically more powerful HUMAN BEING does not exploit the physically weaker HUMAN BEING regardless of gender. Those are the same laws that stand behind the ideal of opposing slavery, genocide, child abuse and so on. In short that is why my point of view is that rules treating women as only half human beings just because they are weaker are rules that support abuse of power. That's why when you talk to westerners you might see them say often that women in the ME are being abused, even tough many are aware of the fact that most of the women there are treated gently by their husbands. The reason I deleted my reply to you last night is because I pondered over the reality and it really only matters is a person is happy or not. There are so many women in the West who are treated with freedom and equality but yet they are unhappy in their marriage. It does not matter if a woman is covered or not, it does not matter if a woman is equal or not, if she is not happy. It does not matter where we live, if we know how to be happy. Often I delve into the wisdom of being happy. happiness is so simple if we want and appreciate he things that we have in life right now,rather than just wishing for what we do not have and letting our lives go by in expectation. I guess acceptance and humbleness may not be part of equality but certainly could be ways to achieving happiness. Abdulksaida between men and women the only power is the power of love both in the East and in the West. We either possess this power or we don't.
Submitted on Mon, 2007-10-22 16:06
reply power of love
L.W 1- first hoping u did well in u exam as i think so . yes what u stated are correct about physical strength , and even if we feel women are weak in ME , but also those women are awary of their wrights given to them by relegion and u know not all men will exploit that weakness depending on each person and how much he has morals and good behaviour and respect for women whom are at the end mothers , dauahheters , sisters and wives. 2- for our beleieve we dont impose it , only sharing and even my mother dressed in western clothes and only lately she dressed like us, it is not the whole issue, people are judjed by actions and for us women in ME trying to obey relegion as it is as other posters say style of life in all issues. 3- even u english is second, but really u are professional in it and not compared to me, u deliver your point very clearly . 4- yes happiness is the goal of all creatures and some find it in relegion, others in not, others dont know, and i wish all have happiness in this life and later, it really depends on each one and how he thinks, we have to differ to see how much each one have given . 5- yes power of love sometimes make both partners forgive each other as we are non perfect, if love was lost , then each one will see other mistakes and magnify it, nice to talk to u always l.w.
Submitted on Mon, 2007-10-22 23:25
reply if u dont mind
L.W. If u dont mind, can u tell me what is your first language? it is up to u to answer. thanks
Submitted on Mon, 2007-10-22 23:49
reply some info
International Support for Women’s Campaign
Iranian women’s rights activists are initiating a wide campaign demanding an end to discriminatory laws against women in the Iranian law...
Submitted on Mon, 2007-12-03 18:33
reply from the 16 days: against gender violence blog
[quote]According to WHO nearly half the world's women who die from homicides are killed by current or former husbands or partners. But in the Middle East and North Africa the trend is differentiated by the number of women murdered by a male relative rather than her spouse. In a study of female homicides in Alexandria 47% of the women killed had been raped and then killed by a relative for loss of "honor". In Lebanon 70 -75% of the perpetrators of female homicides were the victim's brothers carrying out retribution to uphold "honor".[/quote]
http://opendemocracy.net/blog/5050/karama
Submitted on Mon, 2007-12-03 18:40
reply
-----
Dear abdulksaida,
How are you? Lets try this again :-)
"may be u will say that men and women are the same form all over the world, yes as we all created by one God, but our thinking is different"
I agree, with you that our thinking is different. Of course it is. We grew up in a different environment, culture. We think that each of our view is the norm. Some factors may not be suitable as to where you live and probably same for where I live in. But you sure would agree that man and woman are equal, and you would agree that we both share strengths and weaknesses. No? :-)
"but the life or difference in women and men is not always calculations"
Of course it isn't, I am giving you an example to illustrate my point so it’s easier for you to understand. :-)
"yes their are some women who are stronger but i told u the majority , as by statistics women are weak in everything and that is not shame"
Let’s pause here, and let me ask you some questions. Again, please don’t feel any pressure :-) Again, how do you define "weakness"? You wrote "everything", so what are issues that "everything" includes? Are you sure "everything" include all the issues that needs to be considered? What is the "magnitude" of "everything"? Do you mean "everything" or "some of the issue"? How do you know majority of the women are "weak"? How do you pick a proper definition of "weakness" and do the study, considering the fact that, for examples which can be perceived as "weakness” and for others it maybe regard as "strength"? What is the standard definition of "weakness"? Why that standard definition should be picked? What are the important issues? As you can imagine, it can get pretty damn complicated. :-)
"Now i have to say sorry i will say our women in ME and even if they are weak , but also dont feel that shame as they are dont feel much bad in it,"
abdulksaida, as I said, there is a difference between "forced to stay in home by husband", and "choose to stay home". If the woman in middle-east sees no shame, and chooses to stay home, that’s okay. And I will quote what I said before: "I have no problems if she is happy and choose to stay home" or I have no problem, if it’s not possible to work for both of them, so one of them would have to make sacrifice. :-)
"ok, if men and women the same, so why women in the west fight for some of their equality, why all that struggle? "
I am not saying women in the west are fine. :-) There are still issues that need to be worked on.
I agree. But that doesn't mean, we men can deny their right of equality. That simply isn't fair. I don’t want to sound like an angel, but that’s how I see it. :-)
"tell now they didnt reach to what they want and not satisfied as till now no women ruler in America eventhough their were many muslims women leaders in bangladish, bakistan and some others."
First, I will have to admit, it is true. you are indeed correct. But then the question becomes, just because we didn't see any in America (I assume you mean US), that doesn't mean we wont in future. And it also doesn't mean, it provides a fair indication, how women are treated in their countries. No? :-)
Second, Lets take your first country, Bangladesh. It would be too long to go over them all. The two female leaders, as I can remember were Khalida Zia, and Sheikh Hasina. Would you please tell me who played the big influence on them to get into the politics? Would you tell me, if it wasn't for Mrs. Hasina's father (Sheikh Mujibor Rahman), I believe, please do correct me and Mrs Khalida's husband (Ziaur Rahman), would there be any chance of make them leaders? You do Remember, the role they played when the war was fought between East Pakistan and West Pakistan, in 1971.
Third, wouldn’t be better indicator, to see how the women are treated in population as a whole rather than whether a country had women ruler or not?
"2 strongs persons in the family cant work, and i want to say that all families from childhood teach their kids that the girl is different and she is the weak"
I agree with you that they are different, but I am not sure they teach girls that they are weak.
Anyway, sorry for the lengthy post, I wanted to go more, but I run out of time. Thank you for your reply as always. Greatly appreciate it. :-)
Submitted on Tue, 2007-10-23 07:01
reply again women weakness vs men strength
cryomax
1- Women and men are equal in sight of their obligations and responsibilites , i mean they both have same duties or depending on their nature which God created us for , we are humanbeings decided to change our rules created from, so we are the one who will suffer and try to bare for something we choose to change it even if it is sometimes difficult for the weak part. weakness in physical, emotion, social, doesnt mean absolute weakness, sometimes strength come out of that good weakness and it inspire us to do many things
2- darling candace, i will try to response to u as soon as possible for that weakness doesnt mean we have not to act and see our best, and if i were in u situation it is for sure i would do the same as u did and think of, that is not a problem, i think only that weakness can lead women to invent new methods to solve problems and really i dont want to say that for the west as of course many western people dont beleive in Quran, but even it say that the women plot is great and that was for specific case about prophet yousef with the wife of the Alaziz, which i will not discuss, of course Quran dont mean all womens, but womens are strong from their native weakness which we cant hide from it or escape, but by our thinking and trying to find acts we can be strong. so candace we have to find ways and that doesnt go against our weakness, as if we are strong, we will not ask help from anyone, but even for me, really i ask help, but unfortunatelly when i need it while i was in my lowest weakness, i didnt find it from those who think they will at least provide it for the sake of God only as it is their responsibility, but i know how to act and do it , but still i admit i was weak and still.
sorry cyromax, i will elaborate on the other points later , pardon
Submitted on Wed, 2007-10-24 03:34
reply gender differences
Cyromax
1- you said men in the west cant deny women rights of equality as that is unfair, but as we see , still their is much unfair and not equality as women also pay for the home, take care of kids, works outside and inside home, so as west men or western countries consider themselves are defenders of women and now they are trying to accuse us of depicting women or suppressing them with no sucsees still in their own countries.
2- I mean you cant convince other cultures of your ideas, when
u fail the same idea in your own country.
3-you also said that the 2 muslim womens who ruled their countries was by the support of their husband or father, and that is ok, any women needs suport of a man as husband, brother, father and that means muslim men respects and support their women. that give us ponus and previlage. Also in population their are many men respects their wives and women as general. it is attributed to teaching of our relegion which is strongly have much sympathy .
4- in conclusion , i have a beleif and i asked many of my female friends and wheather they feel they are weak or not compared to their husbands or men, and they agree even all of whom i asked are not oppressed, educated, working and have very wide broadminded. may be as i told u different culture plays much in different thinking and applying it also.
Submitted on Wed, 2007-10-24 19:47
reply
Abdulksaida,
I passed my
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The water is so soft and gentle to the touch, yet it is the strongest energy in nature. With time and persistence the water softly corrodes even the rocks.