I get the impression from you that because we address and are open about problems that can occur between a man and a woman, thats enough evidence to you that we are a corrupt society.

I think the people in the middle east are reluctant to help women or change in any way because that would be seen as admitting they are not perfect, and that might possibly be seen as a threat to the perfection of their Islamic traditions.

Be back later. I need to dig my car out of the snow, or maybe just go sledding with my kids.

 abdulksaida,

[quote]iam defending rules of islam toward womens and not today muslims practising , i defend it more when always i find that the west forget all other problems in ME occured to us from wars and injustice, and only concentrate on women muslim dress hijab or honor killing and thousand of innocent women and children are died from wars launched by the superpower with no logic most of the time.[/quote]

Does the post I pasted from you describe how you define sexual harassment?

englishman said that most of the constrains are on muslim women if they cover their bodies , but also i think it is by nature as the women to feel shy and dont expose her body and that of course depends on how parents and the teaching she got while childhood. But also i want to say that islam ask also men to be chaste and mosest and allah directs men first and then women in the Quran : ( Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and quard their chastity. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is acquainted with what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their chastity and not display their beauty except wht appear thereof: and to wrap part of theri head covers over their chests and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands 'fathers, their sons, their husbands's sons , their brothers or their brothers sons, or their sisters's sons. )

yes candace in ME there is some private mixed schools which are american or english and many people here like to enrol their kids, but later parents are suffer much , as yes they have excellent accent of reading and writing english , but some relegious teaching are lacking, some families are aware of that and teach them islamic teachings while accquring high level of education, also i want to tell u that always the relegious side in ME and teaching of islam is more strong and have much influence than secular and even some girls graduated from foreign private schools put veil by their choice , it depends also on family and sometimes on individual him self as always we hear about islamic teaching all our life and in every small issue by TV, radio and all types of communications.  

So does adherence to Christianity or, for that matter, many other religions. They are all ways of applying rules of behaviour to what are inherent desires. In Islamic society this takes on a more serious aspect in that the rules are often applied in law so that deviation can result in punishment. It would be simply better if people were able to control their desires, and for the most part people do so in western society, without the requirement to remove all temptation. As I said, I don't think this works 100% but it is a step in the right direction. Islamic tradition would have a perpetual state of frustration followed by marriages of convenience for financial and family honour. This is not in the western tradition of freedom of choice for the individual and would not be acceptable.

Islam also takes no account of people's variability in sexual desire or orientation. Or rather it does, but punishes those who do not conform. In the west homosexuality, or rather acting on it, was regarded as a criminal offence until late in the 20th century. This is still the case in Islamic states. It seems to me that sexual orientation is often not within the control of the individual and that condemning this is wrong. It is a feature of the spread of humanity we have to deal with. Also, people's sexual desire varies in both men and women. There is an acceptance, within Islam, that this will be present in men but that women do not have such a range of desire. This is simply not true. There may be tendancies but there are no strong divisions. One rule does not fit all here and the western idea is based on Thomas Payne's "Rights of Man" that every man has the right to do that which does not interfere with the rights of others. I know this can get complicated, but it is a good start rather than to repress anything that changes the status quo, which is a recipe for zero change in all aspects of society.

I am signing off now as it is coming up to New Year. I wish you all a happy and prosperous New Year.

 candace wrote "just to be certain: are you saying that husbands having control of all important decisions in a womans life is an Islamic or local cultural practice?

I probably need to edit this comment for unabashed self-righteousness but where is the fun in that, I ask you. ;-)"

i think their is misinterpretation of our islamic or local culture practises , men cant control women in all important decisions and i think all will agree that financial matter is the most important for all even i admit personally i dont care much about it, but iam different and exeption, but as i want to convey to you candace that in islam the man has nothing to do with her money and if she is rich and have money and trade, he cant control her and she is free to do what ever she wants.

let give u an example, as the  first wife of prophet mohamed (pbuh) kadija was a famous widow rich women in her time and tribe and she was working with trading, and she was the one who choose the young man mohamed (pbuh) to take her money and trade with it before she knows that he will be a prophet later and he was much younger than her, she was 40 years and he was 25 years, that only to say even before more than 1400 years , women were free to use their money and never her brother or anyone take that important decision from her, so islamic culture give her and respect her for her choose.

another incident was prophet mohamed (pbuh) asked his wife om salamah as all his companions were angry from Quraysh leaders as they forbid them from entering mecca and they refuse to do what prphet mohamed (pbuh) told them, then prophet went to his wife and tell her to advice him and what to do with that situation and she told him what to do and he did then others follow him. All that to say that sometimes the women will control her husband big disicion and you know what i mean , also it depends on the personality of men and how much they have self confidence with them sleves and how much they respect the opinion of women, i think if those men are really relegious and good muslims so they will share with their wives as prophet did .

also i love and like you, i like your openminded and understanding, and also u beleive in peace and all of us the same, we are different may be in experiences and way of life and that doesnot mean hatret or anything, may be if i have the same circumstances or born like others in the west, who knows how i will be, so God created us differently as to be introduced to each other without any humulation, even if u were sexy clothes, of course i dont hate you or feel anything bad, but as you know also here many wear like that, and dont hate them, but i tell our culture without any offense to anyone.

i will read the other and now later respond as only i want to tell u how much also i respect you and dont misinterpret my talking, but iam conveying how the east look to the west and how ordinary people are saying as to have an idea of how each other only think of the other and i like to be frankly and not hiding things and that doesnt mean i will not treat others justly and honestly and also respectly even if they differ form my way of clothing or beleive.

L.w

ok, some western men like to be proud of their women beauty of her body and that first as others dont know the other beauty of women of obedience, wisdom, caring and gentle, the othe men would look to the body of the women and what she wears and the western man e.g has his beloved women to show others his gift , but that will lead other men to be jelous and hope they have one like her and may be the other man will leave his wife and his kids searching for othe women like he saw in the beach with sexy body and that is

Iam telling that as also here now in muslim countries as the information explosion and various satellites and men are usually exposed to beautiful womens in TV or other places, so all wants to imitate them and try to find like them while they will not be able, no perfect women or men in everything and many loved each other while both have defects and it is spiritual love and not always sexy love.

Now in our muslim countries , they blame the media for the awful scences of many naked arabic singers or actors and they critize that always by creating now islamic channels and put vield women to broadcast, as to make balance. They think also that the rate of divorce increases now in ME becasue they try to imitate the west of their style of life as divorce before were very little, but now it increases as men now see other beautiful women and will go with them, i will not tell all as mestress , but also to marry 2nd , 3rd or 4th, and that if the man is relegious and dont want to commit adultry as it is considered in his relegioun, but it is a burden to the family and first wife and children.

Iam telling that as we consider if women shows much of her beauty also may be she will break down her home , so sometimes it is a benefit for the women to be covered and see others covered as her husband will not go outside her family or look to another women. Believe me , they consider it safe for them. What do u think darling L.W  ?

Lw,

Are you too sexy for your posts? ;-)

dear candace

i think may be as i never suffer any discrimination toward women in all my life as even my father (mercy on him) used to prefer me and my sisters even upon the sole brother and treat us very well and loved us much, so even my husband (mercy on him also ) treat me very well and i never suffer from any male in my family , and i and my sisters were given all our wrights more than even our brother, so i think iam not the correct person if u or others want to reach to a conclusion of suppression of muslim womens . I admit i hate some males and feel opressed only after the death of my husband (mercy on him ) from his male families  , also his son , which i admit i dont like them and i consider them far away from real sharia law and applying real islam. That is the only suppression i took it.

I think sharia law give us our all wrights , but the men considered with applying it are not to the level and not all men really like my father and husband, it depends, so i think i will be more bias toward that from my own experience.

Hey girls,

I see a very nice conversation here finally begins to clear up and make sense in all aspects. Thanks for the replies. I will answer later. Now I am too sleepy.

PS> On a more humorous note...I got a spider bite on my chin and I wander..well if my face was covered with a veil taday perhaps that wouldn't have happened.

  Dear W.L

i will inform u of many things of that as i know they clean faces with herb called mura as dilute it with water and daily wash their faces, but to be frank, they are experts of many herbs, to give u the accurate answer i will tell u later for sure, i will not forget as also i want to use it my self, women is women all over the world caring for their faces

good times

Dear Candace,

I can't answer your question without getting in trouble...LOL.....

Abdulsaida,

I read your comments and there are many things I want to reply to.

The first thing that comes to mind is dress code- Islam and Christianity.

You know, when Christians derive from religious point of view they dress just as conservative as Muslims. i see very little differences. It has happened in the past that i went to Church and I was asked to "please young lady would you for God's sakes, put on a coat!" LOL.....

Well I learned my lesson, when I go to church I dress like a Muslim woman just about. Please, don't get the wrong impression. Given I am in business all day for most of the day I am dressed in business clothing which is conservative because of work ethics and professional attitude but after work hours I do unleash my love for fashion. What I am saying is if the USA was a theocracy, we'd be dressed just like in the Middle East. The only reason why some women get the freedom to dress as they please is because our church and legislature (or State) are separated. So we give a chance to Atheists to do as they please also.

I am somewhat puzzled when I read comments about the American women. Given the fact I spent my youth in 2 places in Europe I must say that European women are much more liberal as it comes to clothing. American women in my opinion are very conservative. Years ago when I moved with the American part of my family I was somewhat taken back. I did feel out of place at first because American people are very religious and conservative contrary to what most Muslims would say. I believe that Muslims just don't grasp a system where religion is separated from civil rights and freedoms. You see people dressed any kind of way in the states. To say Western women are all uncovered is not true. Religious Western women dress just like Muslim women. The difference comes from the fact that in the ME all people are religious, in the West- not all. So in the ME it's all covered in the West some are, others aren't. So I really kind of get the impression that Muslims view as evil anyone who would support the idea of freedom to chose to be religious or not. That's why i see the comments about the West and the way people dress and so on. So if we let others in our society to be atheists so our whole society becomes a corrupted waist.

Candace,

I know you love music.

This one is for you

abdulksaida,

I thought you might be interested in knowing that the governor of my state is a woman, both senators are women, our district representative is a woman, and the mayor of this gee-golly city is also a woman.

I can only listen to music with passion that grabs me to a dance.

That's what I would dance to or listen to when I am in more spiritual mood

or Yanni http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubTveCihjoQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubTveCihjoQ

i dont think i will be like einstain or any women will be like him, usually women are less thinking of counting and mathematics even they know well how to take money from their husbands without sometimes counting it. of course it depends and vary from women to women. I want to say men usually think by their minds and we think by our hearts, if we love we give everything to whom we love even sometimes money without counting them.

By the way and i dont offend u or mean to say bad things about the west culture and how they look to women , but when frankly sarkosi with his girl friend wants to visit some arab and muslim countries not all of them allow his girl friend to come with him without marriage, so he visited only 2 arab countries and the rest will visit without her as frankly remind me as i and my husband (mercy on him) refuse to bring his son girlfreiend to visit us without marriage, i want to say as once also englishman said we are the east still have more 500 years to reach their level and the change in our mind of that culture, i want to say , it is impossible to delete that culture and custome even after 500 years, as with Quran present and reading it and study Sunna, it is impossible. Really i see how not all arab and muslim countries can have same word, but really i admire whom cant accept his girlfriend without marriage and clarify to him as for relegious and cultural and not offence for anyone.

i was hated from that son and his girlfriend as i was with my relegion and i dont care if they live in their country as they wish, but we raised in our culture as that is a big sin and we feel guilty, so i think still the west cant understand how our culture and islam teachings goes much deep in our hearts even if it is not enforced by law

englishman

even if their are millions of educated and many i know hold a very high academic certificates, but u cant hear or eg hold a high name in the world, e.g in the country iam living in , the girls in schools and unviversities are more than boys and got high levels ,also the top in universities and colleges are women with high scores, even in medicine the no of boys are less and most are women and in other fields, but when it come to work , they become buzy of home, child baring, taking care of home, so distracted and have other job to do, that in the east, as of course it is different in the west, even though the no of womens whom hold high degree are also less.

physical differences, different responsibilites and type of life will let always women not reach to famousness in technology not becasue she is not brilliant, but because she is needed in other place most important.

candace

cooking for men at home is ok and will cont conflict with releigon as to help her wife, but frankly many men consider that humulation for them and not do it, they like to eat from their wives hand, even approximately each home has a maid to cook for them if they want, but the women usually cook. For me i used to let that job for the maid after of course we taught her, it depends.

they show us in TV a famous arab cookers and teach women how to cook different plates.

candace

frankly , before i used to critizize people whom have maids as it will lead to laziness and not activity, then when i have one, i feel sometimes it is important, but even it will not let u feel that u r the queen of your home especially to u husband or home.

It depends, even me i like to depend on my self, the maid of part time is better, but here most of them are living at home with us . Now we change to part time for special occasions .

My advice is to serve u self and others by own is better than depending on others as my mother (mercy on her ) refused to bring maid as we offer her, and always wants herself to serve us and the whole family.

nice day for u candace and God help u in home responsibilities which are not easy.