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Violent Resistance to Authority: The Catholic Church's Views


Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
"The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community."

"When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel."

"Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution."
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Cambrensis




Posts: 650
Joined: 2004-07-31
One assumes this is what
One assumes this is what Pius XII told German Catholics in the 1930s. He didn't ? Must have been a moral coward then. 



Posts: 650
Joined: 2004-07-31
Who cares ? The principle is
Who cares ? The principle is the same. Where was Pius XII when he ought to have stood up and have been counted ? Nowhere to be seen.



Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
Assumptions concerning Pius XII

In reference to the present Catechism, would be somewhat speculative since Pius XII died in 1958 whereas the current edition of the Catechism from which I have quoted was not published until 1992. 

Cambrensis

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Cambrensis




Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
A more appropriate reference, however

would be to Pope John Paul II under whose authority the present edition of the Catechism was published and whose career at the outset was marked by his opposition to communism, to the extent that the Soviet Union sought to assassinate him. He is generally understood to be one of the chief influences which led to the collapse of communism in central and eastern Europe.

He was a vigorous opponent of war, fascism, dictatorship and unrestrained capitalism all of which he roundly condemned as being part of contemporary society's "Culture of Death".

Cambrensis

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Cambrensis




Posts: 1563
Joined: 2005-03-26
John Paul's Criteria Approves Of The Iraqi Invasion

WJC;

Using the Pope's criteria, the Vatican, as well as the UN, must have approved Saddam's overthrow.

1)Violation of Fundamental Rights: It is no secret that Saddam massacred his fellow Iraqis from the day he seized power. 300,000 graves uncovered since 2003 would attest to that as well as the suffering of the Kurds.

2)Options Exhausted: Saddam refused to fulfill UN mandates following the first Gulf War in l991 up to the invasion in 2003. For suspicious reasons, the UN did fail to authorize this invasion, but they did not oppose it either. They have authorized coalition efforts to stabilize the country every year since. The elected Iraqi government has approved the mandate every year also.

3) Resistance Provoking Disorder: A combination of Al Qaeda, Syrian, Iran, criminal and sectarian elements have provoked violence in Iraq since Saddam's fall. The US has tried to establish stability.

4)Hope of Success: There was every expectation of success following Saddam's outster. The influences in paragraph 3) were unexpected elements.

5) Foreseeing Better Solutions: No one can predict the future. For Example, the latest events in Iraq may end in a peaceful outcome for the country. I hope they do. Don't you?




Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
Pope John Paul wholly opposed the US led invasion of Iraq

There can be no denial but that Saddam systematically violated fundamental rights and that there would have be no other means to overthrow his regime but by violent means.

However, the US first encouraged and then abandoned support for Iraq's indigenous resistance groups and allowed them to be massacred, chiefly, one suspects, because they were the Wrong Kind of Moslems.

Violent resistance to oppressive governments can only ever have any hope of success if it has the support of the indigenous population. Instead what has happened in Iraq, was the replacement of one barbarous regime with a puppet government backed by foreign arms, infinitely less competent, just as corrupt, and almost just as barbarous. 

Whatever the US may have "tried" to do, it has succeded only in visiting death and destruction upon the luckless Iraqis, placing them in an infinitely worse situation than under Saddam, difficult though that is to imagine. The US insurgency has now been justly defeated and its authors deservedly ostracised, humiliated and discredited by the international community as well as their own people.

Setting out the conditions on which tyrranical governments should be overthrown is one thing. The reference is to the responsibilities and obligations of citizens contemplating the revolutionary overthrow of their own government, not to the political and military leaders of foreign states who have decided to attack it. There is nothing here that sets out the circumstances under which a cynical, opportunist smash-and-grab raid by one country (from the other side of the world)  upon the territory of another might be justified.

The present edition of the Cathechism from which I have quoted was published under the authority of Pope John Paul who by no means supported the unlawful and unjustified invasion of Iraq but on the contrary, vehemently opposed it (speaking on at least 56 separate occasions against the attack) and Pope Benedict has adopted the same position.

In an interview on May 2, 2003, Cardinal Ratzinger (as he then was) restated Pope John Paul's view of the U.S.insurgency when he said: "There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a "just war.""

Cambrensis

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Cambrensis




Posts: 1563
Joined: 2005-03-26
Getting Facts Backwards
WJC; You're a confusing guy. On one post you approve the actions of the UN when they include violators of human rights on the Human Rights Council. On this post you criticize the US for staying within a UN mandate to eject Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991. That mandate did not extend to invading Iraq. Criticizing George Bush for staying within the mandate brings up an interesting question. Since you're saying the first coaltion should have toppled Saddam in 1991, why oppose the same action in 2003? We didn't invade Irag in 1991 because of the "Wrong kind of Moslems"? How about the wrong kind of UN mandate instead? Success depends on the "Support of Indigenous Populations"? What kind of support are you talking about? 100 percent of the population, 99 percent...? The vast majority of Iraqis danced in the streets when Saddam fell. We saw it on television. It took only a small number of Iraqis (and outside agitators) to create the anarchy of the last several years. If the vast majority of Iraqis had really wanted to eject the small coalition presence in Iraq, they could have done it years ago. Based on the latest news, insurgent groups are coming around to the supposed puppet government in Baghdad. Who are you to criticize that? "Puppet Government" Gee, I guess the millions of votes cast in three elections across Iraq in 2005 didn't meet with your approval. What a shame. "Luckless deaths"? At who's hands? The Iraqis have been the victims of sectarian violence created by their own people and outside elements like al Qaeda, Iran and Syria. Don't believe the nonsense coming from hacks like those at The Lancet. "Smash and grab raid by one country..."? Which country is that? US, Britain, Italy, Spain, Australia, Japan...? What cut does the UN get for authorizing the coalition presence every year? "The Outcome in Iraq"? Are we suppose to consider your outcome over everyone else's? "Justification"? The justification will come when Iraq is democratic and at peace. Based on the big drop in violence of the last several months, that may be soon. I hope so, don't you?



Posts: 192
Joined: 2007-09-03
Dancing in the street?

Quote:
The vast majority of Iraqis danced in the streets when Saddam fell. We saw it on television.

This was a media event staged to fool the gullible and ignorant (it obviously reached it's target audience!)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm




Posts: 1563
Joined: 2005-03-26
Big C(R A P)

The above greeting sums you up nicely.




Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
Confusion
Once and for all, I did not "approve the actions of the UN Human Rights Council."  I approved the findings of the Eminent Jurists Panel, which reported to the International Commission of Jurists. The ICJ is an independent body and passed on the Panel's findings to the UN, and this is what I reported. I have made no comment at all about the UN Human Rights Council.

The assertion that the 1991 UN Security Council Resolution which has been referred to was the basis of authority for the invasion of Iraq is preposterous. It did no such thing.

In 1991, the US encouraged revolt against Saddam and then left the indigenous Iraqi resistance to be crushed by the regime and murdered in their tens of thousands. Why? Because they were Shias and a Shia Iraq will be firmly allied with Iran.

I do not believe that "the vast majority of Iraqis danced in the streets when Saddam fell". I believe that footage was highly selective and stage managed. Most Iraqis now consider themselves to be infinitely worse off.

This thread has no bearing whatsoever on the invasion of Iraq. It was a quote from the Catechism (to which I added nothing) as to the circumstances under which it should be possible for people to take up arms against their own government. It has nothing whatever to do with justifying unlawful invasions. Pope John Paul was utterly opposed to the US-led insurgency in Iraq. He was not opposed to the violent resistance of Polish and Romanian people to totalitarian socialism.

Cambrensis

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Cambrensis




Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
No UN resolution whatsoever, authorised the invasion of Iraq

The view of Rabinder Singh, QC and Charlotte Kilroy regarding the legality of the US-led invasion of Iraq are now generally accepted to be an accurate statement of the law; that resolution 1441 did not authorise the use of force in the event that Iraq failed to comply with its terms. Their opinion states as follows:

Firstly, resolution 1441 did not expressly authorise "coalition" member States to use force. The resolutions adopted by the Security Council over the years, including resolution 678, show that the language used to authorise force is bold and consistent. Member states are ‘authorised’ to ‘use all necessary means’ or ‘take all necessary measures’ in pursuit of a specified goal.  These words were absent from Resolution 1441.

Secondly, as a matter of principle, international law precluded member states from relying on any implied authorisation to use force. The prohibition on the use of force contained in Article 2(4) of the UN Charter is one of the most fundamental principles in the Charter. Member states may only derogate from that prohibition in self-defence or following an authorisation from the Security Council to use force made under Chapter VII of the Charter. The fundamental nature of the prohibition against the use of force means that if a resolution is ambiguous on the question of whether force is authorised, then it should be assumed that force is not authorised.  Furthermore the power given to the Security Council alone under Chapter VII to decide to use force to restore peace is intended to ensure that any decisions on the use of force are reached collectively. Article 1 of the Charter which sets out the Purposes of the UN makes it clear that collective measures are all that is envisaged by the Charter. Use of force without clear collective authorisation (as in this case) was therefore in conflict with the fundamental principles of the Charter and in violation of international law.

Thirdly, even if implied authorisation to use force were permissible under international law, resolution 1441 did not contain any such an implied authorisation. The wording and scheme of resolution 1441 and the discussions leading up to its adoption make it abundantly clear that any decision on the actions to be taken in the event of breach of resolution 1441 by Iraq was to be taken by the Security Council. Paragraphs 4 and 11 provided that, in the event of false statements or omissions in Iraq’s weapons declaration or non-compliance with its disarmament obligations, either UNMOVIC or the IAEA would make a report to the Security Council. Paragraph 12 of Resolution 1441 provided as follows: "[The Security Council] Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security”.This therefore contemplated that the Security Council, not member states acting unilaterally, were to decide on any further action to be taken against Iraq in the event of any non-compliance by Iraq with its obligations under Resolution 1441. In other words Resolution 1441 did not set out what will happen if it was breached, but left it to the Security Council to decide. Use of the word ‘serious consequences’ in paragraph 13 of resolution 1441 did not amount to an authorisation to member states to use force. Paragraph 13 of resolution 1441 stated that the Security Council “Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations.”

The words ‘in that context’, clearly indicated that any serious consequences which Iraq was to face was to have been decided upon in the context of the discussion by the Security Council envisaged by paragraph 12 of resolution 1441.  In any event, this paragraph did not itself warn of serious consequences but was a reference to warnings made on previous occasions which this part of the resolution “recalls”.   

Cambrensis

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Cambrensis




Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
The legal right to invade

For an additional authoritative statement of existing law relating to the grounds on which it is permitted to take military action, see O. Schachter, International Law in Theory and Practice (1991), at p. 128 "International law does not, and should not, legitimize the use of force across national lines except for self-defence (including collective self-defence) and enforcement measures ordered by the Security Council. Neither human rights, democracy or self-determination are acceptable legal grounds for waging war, nor for that matter, are traditional just war causes or righting wrongs. This conclusion is not only in accord with the U.N. Charter as it was originally understood; it is also in keeping with the interpretation adopted by the great majority of States at the present time. When governments have resorted to force, they have almost invariably relied on self-defence as their legal justification". Along the same lines, and with specific reference to self-determination, I take the liberty of referring to my book, Self-Determination of Peoples - A Legal Reappraisal (1995), at 199-200.

Cited by Antonio Cassese in "Ex iniuria ius oritur: Are We Moving towards International Legitimation of Forcible Countermeasures in the World Community"

European Journal of International Law; Vol. 10 (1999) No.1 

Cambrensis

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Cambrensis




Posts: 34
Joined: 2007-11-21
Composition and credentials of the UN Human Rights Committee

The UN Human Rights Committee consists of 18 independent experts "of high moral character and recognized competence in the field of human rights". They are elected for a term of four years by member States and serve in their personal capacity (not as representatives of the countries that may have nominated them).

A typical example of the calibre of committee members is Rafael Rivas Posada, the present Chair.

He has a doctorate in Law and Political Science (1956) of the Universidad Nacional, Faculty of Law, Santafé de Bogotá. He also completed other postgraduate studies at the Institute of Comparative Law at the Université de Paris (1956-1958) the Institute for Social Studies at The Hague (1961-1963) and a further PhD at Princeton University (1965-1968).

He served as a district Judge at Utica in Colombia (1955-1956) and became Minister of Public Finance, Bogotá in 1958. He was then Attorney General of the Province of Cundinamarca, Colombia (1958-1960).

He was then a Professor at Escuela Superior de Administración Pública (ESAP), Bogotá (1963-1965) and Professor at Universidad del Valle ( Cali , Colombia ) (1965-1970). He served concurrently as Head of the Political Science Department, Universidad del Valle (1968-1969) until appointed Dean of the Department of Economic and Social Science, Universidad del Valle in 1970. He became Dean of the Department of Arts and Sciences, Universidad de Los Andes (Bogotá) (1970-1971), Professor at Universidad de Los Andes (1970-1975).,Head of the  Universidad de Los Andes (1982-1985) and Director of the Center for International Studies, Universidad de Los Andes (1996-1997).  

Between 1971 and 1975 he was in private practice as a lawyer in Bogota. In 1975 he was appointed National Coordinator of the UNDP/UNESCO Programme for Colombia. He then served as Colombia’s Minister of National Education (1977-1978). He was then appointed as a Member of the Peace Commission of the Colombian Government (1982-1985).

Between 1975 and 1977, he was Deputy Ambassador for Colombia to the United Nations, New York and during 1976 was appointed Vice-President if the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea at New York.

He was at the same time also Vice-President of the Economic and Social Council. President of the Social Committee and the Economic Committee of the Council and from 1976-1977, Chairman of the Ad-hoc Intergovernmental Working Group on the Problem of Corrupt Practices, United Nations. In 1978, he was appointed President of the Intergovernmental Conference of UNESCO on Cultural Policies in Latin America and the Caribbean at Bogotá as well as Chief of the Colombian delegation to the tenth special session of the General Assembly of the United Nations, devoted to disarmament, New York.

He was Regional Coordinator of UNESCO for Latin America and the Caribbean , Caracas, Venezuela (1979-1981), Colombia’s Delegate to the World Conference on Culture, organized by UNESCO, Mexico in 1982 and Special Representative of the UN Secretary-General for the study of the human rights situation in Uruguay between 1982 and 1985.

Between 1986 and 1988 he served as Colombian Ambassador to Belgium , Luxembourg and the European Communities, Brussels. He was a Member of the Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities, Geneva (1988-1991), Ambassador and Permanent Representative of Colombia at the United Nations Office and other international bodies based in Geneva (1989-1991), Special Representative of the UN Secretary-General on the human rights situation in Cuba (1991-1992), Member of the Consultative Group of International Experts for the International Committee of the Red Cross (1992-1995), Commissioner member for Panel “A” on the study of reparations concerning the Gulf War, UN Compensation Commission, Geneva (1994-1996) and is also presently a Member of the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague.

Ivan Shearer, the Deputy Chairman of the UN Human Rights Committee has been a member of the committee since 2001. He is Emeritus Professor of Law at the University of Sydney, Australia, is President of the Australian branch of the International Law Association and has been a Member of the Panel of Arbitrators at the Permanent Court of Arbitration, The Hague since 1986.

Professor Shearer is a distinguished teacher, scholar and practitioner of human rights law specifically and international law generally. He has served as a Judge ad hoc in the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea and formerly occupied the prestigious Challis Chair of International Law at the University of Sydney (1982-1990). He was the International Law Adviser to the Government of the Kingdom of Lesotho under the UN Development Programme (1971-1973) and was a member of the Lesotho delegation to various UN conferences.

Professor Shearer's special fields of interest are human rights law, the law of armed conflict (including international humanitarian law), international criminal law (including extradition law) and the law of the sea. In April 2004, he presented seminars on the reporting obligations of states parties to international human rights instruments to the Government of the Lao People's Democratic Republic and was also a lecturer on human rights for visiting government legal officers from Vietnam , Bangladesh and China sponsored by the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) in 1998 and1999.

Cambrensis

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Cambrensis




Posts: 307
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Getting Facts Backwards

The more things change etc etc.

Blind Freddy could see that Mr Rhys-Burgess' piece was referring to the circumstances in which a civilian population could legitimately resist its government.

And yet, the Georgie supporters managed to introduce firstly what the Pope (an Italian living in the Vatican ) did or did not do in relation to what was occurring in Germany during WWII. Perhaps he should have advised the German people that it was legitimate for them to take up arms against the German government, because of what the German government was doing to the Jews. I can see that being good advice in Adolf Hitler's Germany.

Perhaps he should have advised the Jews in Germany that it was legitimate for them to revolt against the German government because of the things the German government was doing to the Jews. I am sure that such advice from the Pope would have made all the difference. If the Pope had said to the Jews, rise up and revolt, then they would have leapt to attention. Without the advice of the Pope, it just did not occur to the Jews that they should try to resist.

 Perhaps the Pope should have said to the Brits, the Americans etc that the German government was doing nasty things to people. One has to assume that the Pope knew this, but the Brits, the Americans etc didn't, and if he had told them, then they might have done something about it.

 The Yanks in particular must not have known what a nasty little bugger Adolf was, because a lot of their leading lights really liked Adolf (do I hear the Bush name in there somewhere?), and a lot of their leading lights did business with Adolf up to and in many cases well past 1941. Of course, if the Pope had told them that Adolf was a nasty little bugger, they wouldn't have touched him with a barge pole.

One must also assume that the Brits the Americans and all of the other Western nations to whom the Jews applied for permission to emigrate prior to 1939 because things were a bit unpleasant in Germany didn't really believe them, because they certainly wouldn't let them in.

 I thnk we can safely conclude that, because the WWII Pope did none of the above, he was a dead loss.

 

Then surprise surprise we have Iraq. How does that go again ? Those 130,000 troops and 8 million mercenaries who descended upon Iraq in 2003 were actually Iraqis in disguise. Why didn't I notice that ? Well I mean they must have been Iraqis mustn't they, if the invasion of Iraq is introduced into a discussion about the rights of citizens to take up arms againts the government ? Nobody would be stupid enough to bring it up otherwise would they ?

 

GTJ