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All Honorable Men


Posts:


I have written often about my perplexity concerning this administration and its courses. The most recent attempt , ‘Bush Who’, was mostly concerned with the President himself. It does not satisfy on the larger question of nearly inexplicable courses pursued by a whole administration. I find it possible, however, to propose something far more cynical and profoundly disturbing which does cohere. In the end, it ascends into a truly frightening empyrean.

To do this, we must go back to the University of Chicago and a Professor of Philosophy and the Classics who taught there from the late 40’s until the late 60s, Leo Strauss. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

In this, I first want to emphasize that I am by no means sure Strauss himself actually bears much real responsibility for what I am about to outline. His principle obsession(?) in these matters appears to have been a (then) widely expressed concern that democracies were liable to fecklessness. That is to say they would be slow and reluctant to defend themselves against threat (as witness the 30s experience with Fascism). Of course, why this should obsess intellectuals of Strauss’ era is all too obvious, but the associated anxieties can legitimately be extended to any era, time and place. In particular, although a clear a war for survival – WWII (after Pearl Harbor) – seems overwhelmingly likely to trigger an appropriate response (however dangerously belated it might be), what might happen when clearly vital interests (oil?) are in placed in jeopardy. Will democracies take the ‘necessary’ actions?

The unstated assumption would be that such will likely involve military aggression. THAT comes up against the consistent observation that modern democracies don’t fight wars. The reason for this is generally left to float out there as, more or less, ‘ a given’. In fact ‘the reason’ can be simply stated: modern democracies are prosperous, and their people understand better things to do with their lives than to go out there and get shot for strategic control of some ‘vital interest’. Find some other way! Cutting some deal or innovating are far more likely than not to be preferred to war - and democratically enjoined.

WAR!?! THAT’S ME! THAT’S MY KIDS!

The thinking which has been associated with Strauss centers on a Platonic formulation. The 'demos' ultimately cannot be trusted. It is fickle, insufficiently reflective, and too ready to indulge irresponsibility. The responsible wise men of the society, its leaders, must exercise their powers to redeem such unfortunate situations as will, from time to time, arise. They are enjoined to do this by employing all their political skills, explicitly to include the telling of ‘noble lies’. That is to say, engaging the demos with such representations of things as will persuade it to do the difficult things that must be done. The wise men ‘know best’ and pursue ‘higher truth’.

Suppose then a group of ‘patriots’ who believe deeply in America. An America not simply of the blood or soil, but as an ideal of freedom and liberty, a beacon, a shining city on a hill, Lincoln’s ‘Last Best Hope of Earth’. An America to whom the opportunity has fallen to lead the world, in the world’s own best interest, to a promised land. It would be criminal to fail this responsibility. But, these patriots clearly see, as just suggested, an inconstant, often heedless American body politic, easily diverted and too often ‘not up to the task’.

What to do?

The Project for a New American Century was formed in the 1990’s as think tank like effort to consider America’s future on the world stage.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Ultimately PNAC offered a blue print: Rebuilding America’s Defenses.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

PNAC became an explicit continuation of a group under Wolfowitz in the Bush I administration that (with Cheney’s blessing) set up to strategize outside the box. What they came up with was issued as ‘Plan B’. It proposed an American leadership whose proper objective would be to make and keep America paramount, the only power able to truly shape things, and that compromising allies - who might not ‘go along’ with America’s vision - as well as opposing our foes might be contemplated. When Plan B went public, George H W Bush was appalled, publicly condemned it, and had it both withdrawn and specifically rejected by those associated with it.

Perhaps the two most signature items in Rebuilding America’s Defenses are an injunction that our military must be prepared to fight multiple simultaneous major theatre wars, and a lamentation that it might take ‘another Pearl Harbor’; to allow us to ‘go there’.

Then comes 9/11.

By some chance, by some quirk of fate, (or by the hand of God?), a number of these ‘patriots’ find themselves uniquely positioned to play the role of Platonic wise men. How can they not seize the opportunity?

What would they do?

First find a ‘causus belli’. Initially very easy: Afghanistan. But they cannot succeed too well. A palpable blow must be struck, but not in any way conclusive. A longer term objective, more involving, more deeply engaging is needed. Saddam Hussein and Iraq are by far the most likely target. And beyond this a ‘Great Enemy’ must found. And it is! Radical Islam: especially in its conjunction with modern technology. [From the National Security Strategy of 2002: “The gravest danger our Nation faces lies at the crossroads of radicalism and technology.” An almost infinitely inflatable bogeyman is realized, inspiring fear and outrage. Kept alive in the public imagination, enlivened as it will be by the all too real trauma of 9/11, we arrive at something which conspires to keep us creatures of our fears. A ‘permanent’ injunction to make the hard choices, and bear the difficult burdens necessary to keep America strong and dominant.

So tell those ‘Noble Lies’!

It must rip the heart out of any American to observe that nearly everything we (which is to say our ‘patriots’) have done finds a coherent explanation within this framework. The ‘failures’ aren’t failures at all. They offer excuses to continue on chosen courses. We didn’t want to capture Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora, barely three months after 9/11. How could the American public be persuaded on Iraq if Al Qaeda, who so hideously attacked us on 9/11, and to whom Saddam might give ‘those weapons’, was out of business, with its leader dead or facing international justice? Why concern yourself overly with taking maximal steps to prevent Al Qaeda from getting at least some of Saddam’s weaponry - some lesser stuff as we gather the bulk to justify our invasion? (Recall - all of the world’s security agencies knew Saddam had no nuclear capability.) How else could we have been so casual as we managed to secure NO Weapons of Mass Destruction? (If we hadn’t found any, then, at best, Osama could have found but little.) Ultimately, of course, everyone lucked out: there we no W.M.D.s. Then an insurgency in Iraq, along with other problematic situations in Middle East (IRAN!, Pakistan), works to our benefit, providing reasons for a continuing strong military presence in a vital, resource rich, region of the world. And, needless to say, violence and turmoil in the area constantly serves to refresh our fear of ‘the bogeyman’. Finally, why truly settle the Israeli Palestinian conflict, since the ability of such a solution to compromise the appeal of radical Islam – and diminish the ‘bogeyman’ - is all too manifest?

So, then, who are our ‘wise men’.

To begin with, let me say who I believe they are not, starting with the President himself. Neither I, nor, I expect, anyone, can see Bush even conceiving a permanent group of Platonic ‘wise men’, telling noble lies’ and guiding the country. However, for reasons I suggest in ‘Bush Who’, he proved to be highly susceptible, a ‘set up’, for their objectives after 9/11. And I believe he is knowingly and sincerely committed to the idea that, in the choices his administration has made since 9/11, he is pursuing some ‘higher truth’, or deeper reality, and that it is his job to ‘sell’ the choices made. And, of course, as President: HE IS RESPONSIBLE!

I would find it hard to believe any of our serving military are part of a group of self elected ‘wise men’. It is too contrary to American tradition, training and - far from least - the honor of our military. I must observe, however, that these same individuals are surely susceptible to injunctions to maintain high levels of American military strength.

I would find it hard to believe our judiciary would be involved – again too contrary to our history. But, as well, recent trends to the right have placed in highly consequential positions individuals who are manifestly likely to be more, rather than less, sympathetic to appeals in favor of greater governmental authority in national security matters. Exactly what our ‘wise men’ might hope for.

I do not believe Colin Powell to have been in on this at all, but Powell’s ‘good soldier’ orientation did not serve this country well in a critical moment. Nor do I believe Condoleeza Rice was in any way involved, although, like others I believe she proved all too persuadable.

So then, WHO?

At one point or other, and in critical positions all too often:

In Power – Cheney, to begin with, along with David Addison and I. Lewis ‘Scooter’ Libby; then the Defense Department axis of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, and including sometime national security gadfly and ‘advisor’ Richard Pearl. In Justice, John Woo must certainly be a possibility.

In Support - I deem likely to be ‘in’ with the idea of Platonic ‘wise men’
public intellectuals like Irving Kristal and his son William, Norman Podhoretz, and Charles Krauthammer.

Then in broader support, although unwitting, a truly massive operation consisting of right wing media, the money that finances both that media and various aggregations that provide ‘think tank’ underpinning for the directions our ‘wise men’ have charted, and finally a Republican Party all too mindlessly compliant, chiefly in what amounts to a devil’s bargain for holding on to political power, with all that power’s other uses.

NOW UNDERSTAND: I am not asserting that there really is an operative group of ‘wise men’, but that the operation of such offers the only (nearly?) coherent explanation for all that has happened. As one who made a career in science, which works to discover exactly such explanations, I am fully aware that the existence of a logical explanation in no way constitutes PROOF. Unfortunately the arrival of a logically coherent explanation comes with the proposal of a point of view I believe would revolt any American, explicitly including the gentlemen just proposed to have elected themselves as our ‘wise men’.

I am, in general, a resolute foe of conscious conspiracy theories. Unconscious ones, conspiracies of commonly held self-interest, even self-delusion, I deem far more likely. But what I have proposed here is explicitly a conscious one. Nevertheless, I find it not unreasonable to suppose a group of ‘super-patriots’, convinced of the nation’s need, persuaded of their own unimpeachable honor, and the virtue of their ultimate aims, who could accept Strauss’ arguments for Platonic ‘wise men’ and the telling of ‘Noble Lies’.

If the attendant circumstances were not so grave, it would qualify as farce.

To conclude. if there is a conscious conspiracy, it is treason pure and simple.

But setting that aside, I believe these people have broken American law and betrayed such sacred trusts that President George W Bush and Vice President Richard B. Cheney should be impeached and removed from office. Our history cries out for it.

My personal conviction runs deeper. I believe it would be just if President George W. Bush,Vice President Richard B. Cheney and former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld were arraigned, indicted, tried and a verdict reached for Criminal Incompetence and Criminal Negligence over the Iraq War. Guilty or not guilty, I would be content. If the verdict were guilty and punishment imposed, I believe justice would have been served. If that punishment were death, I would believe justice had been served. I am appalled that I should think this last, but I do. And I am saddened well beyond words.

‘. . . we, even we here, hold the power and bear the responsibility’ - Abraham Lincoln, message to the Congress 1863.

All Honorable Men!



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Iron Mike's picture

Posts:


You really BELIEVE this stuff?

Wow, certainly you write a plot line worthy of a Robert Redford movie script--complete with shadowy wise men, conspiracy, and intrigue.  All wrapped around speculation and superficial reading of national defense strategy.  The only things missing were an evil military industrial complex and rich oil barons manipulating markets in support of this cabal of wise men.  Not sure why it's easier for some to accept far-fetched conspiracy than prima fascia truth.  

Great stuff Ron!  Hope you get movie rights out of this.

[quote]Ronr: I am fully aware that the existence of a logical explanation in no way constitutes PROOF[/quote]

Well said. In fact, that pretty much makes your post moot, doesn't it? Meanwhile, in the real world, speculation of motives, conjecture, and presidential mistakes made in good faith are not evidence of criminal conduct.  The truth is the American people have turned attention to the successors of the current administration and would sooner focus on the future than the past.  There will be no indictment and no national self flagellation over perceived presidential transgressions.  Attention will turn to an uncertain economy and what an incoming administration can do to fix it.

--

Boring and enraging Liberals with the truth since 2004




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Good post Ron

A bit more than speculation, this is a fairly good hypothesis of how things came about based on the people involved and their underlying motives. The active pursuit, of what they perceive as a worthwhile aim, by the neocon inheritors of Strauss's ideas is not any secret conspiracy but a well published and acknowledged political methodology. The influential people involved are those mentioned, plus a few more, are mostly members of the American Enterprise Institute. The aim, based on Strauss's teachings, and with a little borrowing from Leon Trotsky, has been to promote a consistant view of how to shape the world. They have been doing this for years via numerous publications and becoming (somehow) regarded as experts by the media and some government bodies. It was very unfortunate that these same people were awarded such positions of power and influence following 9/11. The theory turned out not to be so easy to implement in practice.

It is not self flageallation to analyse what went wrong and why. If you don't do this how are you to know when it's happening again? And as for blame, well I'm not big on this path either. But if it is found that some have been less than honorable, like making huge amounts of money as a result of their position of influence, then action should be taken if only as a deterrent for others in the future. I doubt this will happen though.




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Believe this Stuff?

First of all:

englishman,

Thanks, you made points I was looking to make vis vis Iron Mike - especially the notion that it becomes important to take mistakes of this magnitude very much to heart, and understand how they happened.

Iron Mike,

I tried to be very clear about what I believed, and strived to write carefully. You quote from the key paragraph ['NOW UNDERSTAND . . .], but the pargraph needs to be taken whole. Only if I were trying to establish PROOF, does the question of being moot or not hold any relevance.

Can I accept what transpired was a case of 'mistakes made in good faith'? OF COURSE! In fact it would be my 'default option'. Unfortuneately, that option does not add to a logical picture, which was what I was searching for. Life is messy, and frequently evades the nets of  logic. We live with this everyday, but it is more difficult in matters of such consequence.

 While we DO agree that it is how what goes forward evolves that is most important, your persistant tone in regard to such projects an air of: it's over and done with, water under the bridge, get over it. Neither wise nor constructive, it fails demonstate some resonable concern for the difficulty and suffering that have ensued. I doubt you really want to give that impression.



Iron Mike's picture

Posts:


Sorry Ron. It's a house of cards.

[quote]"...your persistant tone in regard to such projects an air of: it's over and done with, water under the bridge, get over it. Neither wise nor constructive, it fails [to] demonstate some reasonable concern for the difficulty and suffering that have ensued. I doubt you really want to give that impression."[/quote]You're correct.  I do not want to give that impression.  It's NOT a matter of water under the bridge.  It's a matter that I cannot accept your argument to your preferred conclusion, no matter how logical, if I cannot accept the underlying assumptions.   [quote]Can I accept what transpired was a case of 'mistakes made in good faith'? OF COURSE! In fact it would be my 'default option'. Unfortunately, that option does not add to a logical picture, which was what I was searching for. [/quote]This is the point where I have to jump from the train.  If you need to craft conspiracy to fill in the blanks and complete the logical explanation, you may achieve your goal of a logical argument, but your goal falls short of achieving a conclusion that criminal prosecution is appropriate.It's a house of cards--built upon debatable assumptions which you characterize as "noble lies", not evidence.[quote]...We didn’t want to capture Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora, barely three months after 9/11.[/quote]Speculation by someone not knowledgeable about the constraints and restraints of military operations.  But must be accepted as an assumption (card) to build the house higher.[quote]Why concern yourself overly with taking maximal steps to prevent Al Qaeda from getting at least some of Saddam’s weaponry - some lesser stuff as we gather the bulk to justify our invasion? (Recall - all of the world’s security agencies knew Saddam had no nuclear capability.) [/quote]Recall that all western nations were in fact convinced by what Saddam admitted himself was a carefully crafted (and highly successful) disinformation campaign to convince Iran and the world that he maintained a viable WMD capability which he fatally concluded maintained the balance of power with Iran.  Add the WMD card to your house.[quote]...an injunction that our military must be prepared to fight multiple simultaneous major theatre wars[/quote]Add another card.  The reality is that national military strategy ALWAYS included planning for a multi-front (i.e., multi-theatre) capability throughout the cold war, largely as the result of the fragility of Korea.  The assessment being that our forces tied up in one theatre could inspire aggression of opportunity in another---Korea in particular.  [quote]Life is messy, and frequently evades the nets of  logic. We live with this everyday, but it is more difficult in matters of such consequence.[/quote]I heartily agree.  Hence my assertion that without legal evidence  (not speculation or conjecture) to the contrary, the president is assumed (by law) to be an honorable man, subject to human fallibility in a messy world.  This is the point when your logical house of cards simply collapses.  You don't prosecute someone to find out the truth; you prosecute them when you have evidence (meeting legal standards) of criminal conduct. [quote]...And beyond this a ‘Great Enemy’ must found. And it is! Radical Islam: especially in its conjunction with modern technology. [From the National Security Strategy of 2002: “The gravest danger our Nation faces lies at the crossroads of radicalism and technology.” An almost infinitely inflatable bogeyman is realized, inspiring fear and outrage.[/quote]  Your dreams of a cathartic prosecution of all the president's men aside, this is the part of your post that concerns me the most.  If you consider radical Islam to be an "inflatable bogeyman" you have already lost the war.  This is no card.  If you do not accept radical Islam exists and is the underlying ideology that inspired horrendous body count throughout the world, you are the proverbial frog slowly boiling to death without jumping.  

 

--

Boring and enraging Liberals with the truth since 2004




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Exactly WHAT is a 'House of Cards'

Iron Mike,

I tried to write carefully, but it appears not carefully enough. In retrospect, I should have broken a paragraph after: ['. . . it is treason pure and simple.'] and begun another with [ 'But setting that aside, . . .] [Note: now corrected]

From that point on I deal with my belief that American law has been broken and sacred trusts have been violated, and impeachment proceedings are called for. What preceeds that is, and remains, an admitted 'high wire act' of speculation.  What follows is an assertion that such evidence exists to support impeachment, and beyond that, a further prosecution for criminal negligence and criminal incompetence over the Iraq war. I do not build that case, although I believe a rich basis for it exists.

Just yesterday, Bush and Co. admitted they waterboarded, and that is torture under well precedented American (as well as international) law. You may recall we have discussed this matter before, and, while I haven't checked the administration's arguments, I rather expect they will make the caseI have made that exceptional circumstances can be invoked. My dissagrement will lie with what I indicated earlier, i.e. exactly what those circumstances are, and over 'framing a policy' to 'allow' for them. I believe it was their consideration of just such that led, through (criminal!) laxity and confusion, to an all too facile dissemination of 'aggressive interrogation techniques' into the general military community. The consequences - Abu Ghraib, et al - clearly worked against everything we stand for as a nation, everything we were attempting to achieve in the region, and without doubt, possessed the capacity to excite acts of revenge and madness against American serving men and women in the field. For that I hold this administration responsible - and it is as good a basis as any (many are available!) for proceeding with a prosecution.

 

 

 

[quote]If you consider radical Islam to be an "inflatable bogeyman" you have already lost the war. This is no card. If you do not accept radical Islam exists and is the underlying ideology that inspired horrendous body count throughout the world, you are the proverbial frog slowly boiling to death without jumping.[/quote]

The phrase I have consistenty used is 'infinitely inflateable bogeyman' and has always been invoked in reference to a 'propaganda ploy' used to keep us locked in as creatures of our fears.

I have consistenlty used another formulation with respect to Al Qaeda: A rag tag collection of fanatics who have nothing to offer their people but pyrotechnic nihilism and stagnation in a life that opens to none of the opportunities that open to people in the modern world. I have also offered very consistently that Al Qaeda's geatest hope lies in igniting a much greater conflagration in its area of the world. [Something this administration has been cooperating towards mightily]. I have offered in several places that I take radical Islam most seriously, but understand that confronting it requires a long term commitment involving broad, and collegial efforts across many fronts, economic, political, diplomatic, etc., with armed conflict only one of them. All of it not a little like a second Cold War.

Iron Mike, don't you begin to suspect your ideas of putative liberal positions appear to be more the construct of right wing propaganda than of reality.



Iron Mike's picture

Posts:


Reason, not propaganda

[quote]Iron Mike, don't you begin to suspect your ideas of putative liberal positions appear to be more the construct of right wing propaganda than of reality.[/quote]

No...not in the least.  My positions are based upon 30 years of military experience in peacetime and war, tempered with studies in government, foreign policy and international relations.  Reality cannot be more real than that.

[quote]I have offered in several places that I take radical Islam most seriously, but understand that confronting it requires a long term commitment involving broad, and collegial efforts across many fronts, economic, political, diplomatic, etc., with armed conflict only one of them. All of it not a little like a second Cold War.[/quote]

At last...sanity reigns supreme!  Perhaps I misjudged your position.  I could not agree with you more on your stand above and have been consistent in my position that military force is but one instrument of power to meet foreign policy objectives and one to be used judiciously, sparingly, and only in synergy with diplomatic and economic instruments of power.

--

Boring and enraging Liberals with the truth since 2004




Posts:


Reading Each Other

Iron Mike,

[quote]Perhaps I misjudged your position.[/quote]

It hasn't exactly been hidden under a bushel

The position on which we appear to agree is one I have advocated all the time I have been  in discussion here (or elsewhere). On the other hand, your exposition of 'liberal' positions has seemed to me most of the time to be little more than the crude caricatures I have seen flowing like water from conservative media. Liberals do not 'Hate America'. Arguably, they invented America.I have tried hard to confine my excoriations of Bush et al to Bush et al on the basis of a tragically sorry record, nearly always explicitly cited before applying 'the lash'. Doubtless I have failed to be absolutely consistent, but I have tried.



Iron Mike's picture

Posts:


Hiding your position in a thicket of hyperbole?

[quote]"It hasn't exactly been hidden under a bushel"[/quote]

No...just obscured by the "high wire act" preceding it.  Just because we found a point of agreement doesn't mean I've achieved some liberal epiphany!

[quote]"...your exposition of 'liberal' positions has seemed to me most of the time to be little more than the crude caricatures I have seen flowing like water from conservative media."[/quote]

Seems to me that it was YOU that felt the need to fill in the blanks of your logical argument with conjecture, conspiracy, and speculation about the motives of the administration.  That alone fuels the very crude caricatures you find so objectionable.

[quote]From that point on I deal with my belief that American law has been broken and sacred trusts have been violated, and impeachment proceedings are called for. What preceeds that is, and remains, an admitted 'high wire act' of speculation.  What follows is an assertion that such evidence exists to support impeachment, and beyond that, a further prosecution for criminal negligence and criminal incompetence over the Iraq war. [/quote]

So I should accept your serious assertion and ignore the less than serious "high wire act" upon which it is built?  

[quote]"I do not build that case, although I believe a rich basis for it exists."[/quote]

Aye, there's the rub.  You prefer to deal in beliefs instead of evidence when it is only the latter that supports your preferred conclusion of criminal wrongdoing crying out for justice.   

True, Liberals built this country, but those Liberals at our founding would never recognize the Liberal Fascists of today as kindred spirits. It is conservatives who seek to preserve the foundations of liberty that our Liberal founders codified in the constitution, not reinterpret it in the context of today's socialist agenda.

 

--

Boring and enraging Liberals with the truth since 2004




Posts:


There are none blind as those who will not see.

Iron Mike'

 

To begin with: [quote] Just because we found a point of agreement doesn't mean I've achieved some liberal epiphany![/quote] Considering that what we (apparently?) agree on is a serious commitment extending - of its nature - indefinitely over I time, it is difficult see that ‘point’ of agreement quite covers it. [quote] ...just obscured by the "high wire act" preceding it. [/quote] but . . .  [quote] I have offered in several places that I take radical Islam most seriously.[/quote] I did not expect exposition of my point of view in THAT regard to be limited to this one – explicitly high flying  - speculative piece. Indeed I specifically separated the main thrust of the piece from a further, more concrete, assertion which was clearly stated to be based, not on speculation, but on observed evidence. I propose a rich basis for exploring prosecution exits, and suggested one such area – Abu Ghraib and its attendant issues (regrettably, there so many others!).  [quote] So I should accept your serious assertion and ignore the less than serious "high wire act" upon which it is built?[/quote] Wherein does it still remain unclear that the ‘assertion’ was NOT based on the play of fancy?  There are none so blind . . . . . [quote] Seems to me that it was YOU that felt the need to fill in the blanks of your logical argument with conjecture, conspiracy, and speculation about the motives of the administration.  That alone fuels the very crude caricatures you find so objectionable.[/quote] The whole point of the ‘high wire' speculation was that the conjecture, conspiracy etc. carried with it, as nothing else I have seen proposed, a logical coherence. 

On to other matters [quote] True, Liberals built this country, but those Liberals at our founding would never recognize the Liberal Fascists of today as kindred spirits.[/quote] So you have bought into the Jonah Goldberg nonsense.

 

Try this:
 

Goldberg’s book is about ONE THING and ONE THING only: REBRANDING.

Communists! Marxists! Those epithets were the one thrown at the Left by the Right. Fascists! Nazis! were thrown back by the Left at the Right. 

There things stood: Equally toxic either way. 

But now the Communist/Marxist labels have lost something of their 'zing'. Not so the Fascist/Nazi ones. [With an ‘assist’ from the right wing propagandizing on ‘IslamoFacsism’ (what would be 'wrong' with Islamototalitarianism?)]  So now Jonah Goldberg has taken the point in a Right Wing 'bright idea' to apply the (now) more toxic set of labels to the Left.

An entirely useful, historically valid and defenseable conceptualism has been thrown out the window. The really important point about that conceptualism has been, starting either from the Left (Revolution of the downtrodden masses) or the Right (preserve the ‘sacred tradition’), one can arrive at totalitarianism.

  A fact Mr. Goldberg's 'cute' little ploy (scheme?) will obscure. 

REBRANDING: NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS 



Iron Mike's picture

Posts:


Nonsense or Common Sense?

[quote]So you have bought into the Jonah Goldberg nonsense.[/quote]

Not entirely, but I find his premise intriguing.  I added his book to my reading list and will certainly re-engage when I finish it.

--

Boring and enraging Liberals with the truth since 2004




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Ike Got It Right

ronr;

 Dwight Eishenhower said:"In peacetime, everyone is a pacifist".

Reading your post I will add:

...and everyone has a  paranoid rant to go with it..




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Ahh tt again!

Well, you met your standard. At or under 25 words.




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ronr answers, says nothing

ronr;

replies to you are easy. Lack of response from you noted. 




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tt

Lack of substance in your replies ALSO noted.




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Broad Strokes

bonr,

Lack of substance?

You are the one who paints in broad strokes. We can fill in the details whenever you like.




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tt

Oh but that 25 word llimit!




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ronr's limit

bonr;

You are the one who imposed the 25 word limit on yourself. I only asked someone if they could keep the wordage down.

I already know it takes more than 25 words for you to put your foot in your mouth.




Posts:


Actually he has a point. . . .

Perhaps Leo Strauss had a point which is worth discussing and thinking
about.

Democracy in the sense we understand it today is something which arrived
with the 20th Century. It is true that here in my country there was a form of democracy
for centuries and a check on the power of the King through Parliaments and the
Law. But the 20th century brought the suffrage and greater legitimacy. 

Perhaps it is also worth remembering that throughout that period the
democracies have been under siege from forces which seek and sought their
destruction. These negative forces have a common home which is found on the
left. That is why some use the term the 'Fascist Left' because be it communism,
Marxism-Leninism, Nazism or whatever they all share the same intellectual roots
and seek the same end: supreme power.

Democracies are really passive things, slow to react and usually they do
everything and anything before they do the right thing and that only at the
11th hour. It is basically their inherent nature. It is this passivity that
makes them so vulnerable. But I also think it is perhaps worth reflecting as
you look round the world just how much of the world population live under
democratic rule and just how much lives under the yoke of some tyrant or
another ??

Many on here rail about President Bush and there is some cause. BUT is he
perhaps on the right side of history in what I believe is his belief that the
west should spread the seeds and fruits of democracy ? Certainly in my lifetime
the west has spent far too much time (not to mention treasure) looking for
stability believing that some one might be a 'son of a bitch, but at least he
is our son of a bitch'. But what if the west used its power to actively destroy
some of these ghastly tyrants, like we have done with Saddam ? Is there not a
case for saying this is a moral and a right thing to do, but in the longer term
might it also be in our interest ?  

I would also make one further point. ronr seems to imply that because he is
a liberal (he isn't much of one actually) that he is a morally superior being
to a conservative (like me). He is not. It has often been the conservative
tradition which has achieved far more and has shown it self to be truly liberal.



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