The side I least sympathise with is the terrorists, so an acceptable response would be to not target innocent non-combatants. I can understand their desire to fight back for their land/rights/dignity, etc, but targetting non-combatants isn't the way to do it. I think I've made my thoughts fairly clear on the Blockade of Gaza thread.

I'm a little confused about this thread, not entirely sure what your intentions are... Am I on the right track with the above?

englishman

only to correct u information, israel agree to built 750 new settlement while they want peace, so steal more land and encourage palestinians to negotiate, please tell me who will do that ? so israel dont want peace and she need only time.

peace has to be comprehensive and just peace with dignity and our land not to be taken inch by inch , then the whole world see that we dont want to negotiate.

Candace,

You pose an interesting exercise that I don't think has been adequately addressed since you were explicit in framing the question with a caveat that the definition of terrorism is not the issue.  What caught my attention was the more interesting question of an appropriate reaction to a terrorist threat or a terrorist attack.

With a reaction to a terrorist threat, you open the can of worms of arguing the merits and legality of pre-emptive war.  Clearly this was the basis for much of the Bush administration's Global War on Terror (GWOT).  But military force is only one instrument of power and when it comes to the "threat" of terror, I think it may be the least effective unless there is actionable intelligence sufficiently grave to preclude all other courses of action.

Reacting to a terrorist attack is more unequivocal.  A terror attack is no longer a criminal act--it is an act of war intended to advance a political agenda.  When the originator of the attack can be identified, swift and overwhelming force can and should be used to punish the attack and make the cost-benefit analysis of future attacks too low in the benefit column of the terrorist.  Make no mistake! That is NOT a vote for war.  Appropriate "force" in this context should be a synergistic application of mutiple forces---economic, diplomatic, and military designed to achieve realistic and definable "effects" upon the enemy.

The second part of your question is more difficult.

There are a couple ways to interpret this.  By "..the side they least sympathize with" do you mean the side committing the terror attack or threat of terror?  Or within the wide spectrum of possible responses to terror, are you asking what acceptable response we least agree with?  The latter makes the most sense to me, so I would offer the UN embodies that response to me.   The UN response is acceptable from the standpoint it is achieved as the result of a majority vote.  But it most often centers on resolutions condemning the aggressor, followed by impotent posturing and more resolutions of condemnation.  In an age of dirty bombs and suicide terror attacks, I sympathize least with that "acceptable response." 

Does that answer the mail Candace?

I wasn’t expecting any replies. I’m all unprepared.;-)

After reading one too many Israel/Palestinian threads that get caught up on who the real terrorist is supported by definition A or B of terrorism I thought that for the purpose of this discussion Englishman, Joe Bloggs, Iron Mike, Abdulksaida, and anyone elses definitions are correct.

"Who you least sympathize with."

If you support Palestinians and Hamas or any group attacks Israel what would be a acceptable reaction to that attack?

Same with Israel Supporters: When Israel does its collective punishment thing, or kills a leader what would be a fair response from the Palestinians for that?

(creative-non violent reponses welcome)

Acceptable and fair would be what wouldn’t get in the way of negotiations.

Abdulksaida,

I cant find a link to what you are saying. I did find something about Islamic Jihad

http://tinyurl.com/38s637

and this:

In its statement, the Islamic Jihad vowed that "the retaliation will be in the depth of the Zionist (Israeli) entity."
link

candance

also yesterday they killed 4 palestinians from Al Quds leaders, they show to us in TV . I think by now if daily small no of palestininans like one or 3 or 4 , so may be it is not big deal for western media to show , but if only one israeli is killed, so it is big deal. May be u can search in arabic channels in net and i think it has english translation as sorry i didnt refer it to u from net , from TV and that channel is very famous and authontic in Arab world.

If you want news from various ME TV stations translated into english:

http://www.linktv.org/mosaic/streamsArchive/

The fact I prefer the death of terrorists instead of their victims proves I care for truth and justice.  I believe both Israeli and Palestinian people have a valid claim on the same land and any long-term solution will need to accomodate both. Palestinian terrorist organizations must stop terror attacks against Israel, renounce violence, and commit themselves to share the land with israel.  As MANY people here including me (and most lately Joe Bloggs) have pointed out to you, when the Palestinian people do these things, they will be empowered because it removes any legitimate retaliation by Israel.  At that point, there will be no stronger advocate for the Palestinian cause than me.  THAT is truth and justice. The real question is, "Can you handle the truth?"

 abdulksaida,

 Its a shame that you are so willing to judge a persons character by how they choose to express their opinion on how to resolve this conflict.

Candace, I was going to say the same thing.

Abdulksaida,

In Australia, after more than 200 years of British rule, land is slowly but surely being given back to the Aborigines (this started happening before the government said sorry). Seeing as they've been here for around 60,000 years, it's understandable. The same has happened in New Zealand, with land being given back to the Maoris. Parts of the USA have also been given back to the Native Americans too.

As the jewish peoples have been around longer than either christian or muslim peoples, surely they have a place in Palestine...

Again with the peaceful resolution to your problem, try this site: www.aeinstein.org

candace

yes i wrote that as iron mike only defend israeli and that doesnt mean his whole character, but from his writings , it seems he dont care for truth and not only him but most of the people in the world even UN and all countries, they are buzy with their economy which is the first in the level of thinking and it is the standard for evaluating things .

When any one only suspect of jewish halluacust  victomes number or even determine the no of killed people , so she or her would be accused of antisemnetic , even they are with jewish relegion , and they give a total insult to his or her personality and can pe prisoned or pay money as happened to Garodi ( french authour) .

As the truth is clear and who steal is clear even for the kid, so any one who dont say it , means many things even in our arab and muslim countries, they dont care for human lives, and care more of collecting power and authority even in some palestinians and they can benefit from the conflict to be long.

I mean a normal person who have basic morals can distinguish who is the aggressor and who is the victom and not go aroung the principle as now iam suffering from our boss in work , it seems always who have the power and authority to misuse it and all beleive him or her. Now i will start to fight in another front in my work for the same and near attitute of people who see the correct and suffer and deny. Not only iron Mike millions are the same in this world.

if we stand behind the aggressor , so we are the same even iam not with George Bush when he said either with us or against us. At least we have to help the aggressor by telling him , stop you exceed limits of justice and that has to be told to israel or all we share in this crime of the century of starving children and women and depriving them of any sort of dignifined life which will lead them really to what the west call defenders of terrrorists, so who creat those terrorists?

give them their ilegitemate right and all conflicts even in the world would be solved , not only in ME as the people will trust morals and principles written without applying.  

There is very little in common between the situation of the aboriginals in the USA, NZ and Australia and the Jews in Palestine. I really do not see that there is anything to learn from this comparison. It is hardly a useful role model for how to treat ancient populations - almost drive them to extinction then belatedly offer back a few crumbs when they are no real threat to the existing power base. This genocide (some deliberate and some accidental) happened within recent history and there is some collective guilt that drives recent policy. I note a recent speech by the Aussie PM (I think), about how Australia is for English speaking people who accept the status quo, shows some limitations to this apparent generosity of spirit.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the jews being dispersed 2000 years ago, in my opinion this should not be a consideration today. If you take such an argument to its logical conclusions everyone in the world has a right to take over Nigeria (for example) because we all originate from a population in the rift valley there. And it can hardly be said that it is the fault of the Palestinians (or even their ancestors) that the jews were exiled. The only justification for the jews re-occupying Israel is that it happened in good faith as a result of the British and other western powers believing it their right to allow this to happen, and doing so without consideration for the consequences. A status quo (of sorts) has been established and there are now second and third generations of people who see themselves as Israelis. The land is big enough to accommodate the jews and the Palestinians; it is a political settlement that is lacking.

Where you may say there is an analogy is that the Israelis are doing today to the Palestinians what the British colonialists did to these aboriginal peoples. They also wish to confine them to "reservations" which get progressively eaten into by new settlers year on year.

And yet, the Palestinians refuse to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and will not share the land...even if it means their resistance results in their extinction.

Englishman,

I agree that it's not a perfect analogy, and was in two minds about posting it, but the point I was trying to make was this: The Jewish people have as much right to that land as the palestinians do, due to the history of both of those cultures with the area. I agree with your second paragraph, except for the part about the rift valley. That's just being silly, but your point has been duly noted ;-)

Australian politics (now, with the new PM) is most definitely driven by a belief that there's a collective guilt. Hell, the settlers did some terrible things, and now that the aboriginal population is less than the japanese population in Aus, they are trying to make amends - there are vast expanses of land which are completely under aboriginal control, among other more material forms of help. I'd hardly call it 'crumbs'.

I decided to use this analogy because Abdulksaida said that the land should be given back to it's original owners, because they have a history there. How far back in history is she prepared to go? She wants the land given back to the palestinians, but not a culture which was there before them, but then she reprimands the US for not giving land to the Native Americans...

iron mike and joe bloggs

is it moral for israel to occupy other land inhabitant for long time and i was also one of them and my family and become refugee , it is not long history , it is for approximately 40 years for me, and for my parents also it is very near history, i will not tell about 2000 years eventhough it was inhabitants with arabs and i know and every palestinians know the tree of their family and where they live, and still we are all alive to see our people killed and discarded and iam also an example like millions of palestinians so it is fresh subject.

we dont dream to wash jewish , we only defend our land and our degnity with what we have, so if really israel wants peace, so only she can stop building settlement and stop killing leaders of palestinians and then the world will listen to her and we will trust it, but they are not serious in negotians not us, we dont have things to negotiate, can u understand or see, we dont have US with us or any power country, we dont have authority nor money and we are the weak part whom our land daily is stolen and our people are killed. Really i cant understand how some of you think ?
what is u opionion on settlements? and of exile palestinians? if a peace will done, do u agree we are palestinians to return to our land or not ?? please tell me iron and joe .

i have memories when i was 5 years and less and i swear that tell now i still remeber jerusalem and its streets even when i was 3 years old.

is it moral that sharoon killed so many palestinisns and he was elected and now most jewish wants a leader to be more stiff and kill more innocent palestinians is that also moral ?

joe said that israel has a relegious roots and as also englishman said which i want to say it , as most of them secular but which make me astonish that also as far as i predicted that joe is secular also and eventhouh he adopts the story of God who promise those people to take land by force and by killing its people, do u think that is real God? God would never promise anyone to take land even for rightous people we cant even gurantee that we all muslims will enter paradize without doing good deeds . It seems only you carry their idea as u taught it .

once in algazeera tv since long time, they invite a rabist or relegious jewish in a program and really i respect him, he was very relegious jewish and knows his book well and say that God dont want for us a land , his order to be scattered all over the world as we dont obey him, and that is our destiny and we have to obey God, i forget many things , but really he was telling the truth, and i know if jewish are really relegious and apply the exact torat and not the changed one, we will be palestinians and muslims happy with them and all will live in same land as they will not be aggressors as we have same God (Allah).

Did I state anywhere in my post that I sincerely believe in what I was writing? I was using Abdulksaida's own argument against her (about giving land back, as they have a history with it). It works both ways - whose history would have the greater weight? As far as what is written in bibles is concerned, I think it's more a work of fiction than an actual history of god's words. I'm aware of how Israel came to be too, none of what's written in your post is new to me.

I have never denied that injustice is being done to the palestinian civilians - BUT, if they continue to support a violent struggle for their land, it's only going to end in tears. Look at the IRA: Originally it worked, forming the Republic, but with all the bombings and attacks against Britain, they're no closer now to having their land back than when it was first taken from them. I believe there is more than enough land for both Jews and Palestinians to live peacefully side-by-side, but I'm tired (as others are) of palestinians playing the victims card when they're still blowing themselves+buses+civilians to kingdom come. Try something peaceful for a change, it just might work!

As for giving land back to Aboriginals, it's the equivalent of giving the rift valley back to all who descended from those original inhabitants, because they've been here a very long time - but still we do it. I agree, Australia is very inhospitable, considering Adelaide (in one of the best farming areas) just got through two weeks of temperatures over 35C in March. The rest of Aus is still useful, mainly for cattle grazing or mining. Giving it back to the Aborigines is doing them a big favour, and if they use the land right they can do quite well for themselves - or they can revert to their old ways and go walkabout instead, it's up to them.

Try reading my posts more carefully before jumping on the bandwagon ;-)

Joe, I tend to assume people are actually saying what they mean when they post something. If it was an attempt at irony or sarcasm, it got lost on me. I also am not jumping on any bandwagon. Looking back at this thread, the "bandwagon" was rolling along quite a different track.

The situation in Ireland is very complex. Land ownership has little to do with the issue as, whether it was Eire or Britain, it would not change individual land rights. I know you mean which country should govern the North. Of course, land ownership and the rights to tax was a key issue 100 years ago although, even then, it was more a matter of pride and nationalism spurred on by the former injustices, actual and perceived, of a colonial British government. The "troubles" are now over, hopefully forever, although there is still and undercurrent of meaningless tribalism which could flare up given the right circumstances. The realisation that there is no real reason to continue the struggle has come together with other changes: Eire and the UK are both part of the EU and the South has had new found wealth and modernisation from this, dispelling the myth that it is a backward, priest-ridden society that Northern Protestants want nothing to do with. South to North migration for jobs has now stopped or even reversed which has removed Protestant fears of demographic changes. The respective leaders of both sides are aging into respectability, and have wearily (and warily) accepted compromise. And the vast majority of people are tired of the whole thing. It would make little difference to anyone who "ruled" the North, but I guess it will stay as it is for quite a while and hopefully become more prosperous as a result of continued peace.

Anyway, that's a different subject. I have also argued that it was a mistake for the Palestinians to elect Hamas, but that does not mean that I don't understand how this happened. I would certainly recommend you take a look at the mideast.org website. It covers a wide range of subjects, including current issues, and seems to me one of the most balanced treatments of the subject around. It is run by Israelis and Palestinians looking for a peaceful solution and deserves support.

Abdulksaida,

If I understand you correctly, you think we or I have brutish audacity to suggest that Palestinians might be able to improve their situation without violence. Even Palestinians are not supposed to do that unless they are men (which is why I suspect you usually ignore my posts) or if they are Islamic leaders.

You are in a way asking for help. If we had any moral decency we would listen to wha you are saying and know that the only 'solution' us for our government to stop supporting Israel, or something like that. But because supposedly we respect military strength over truth and moral strength, we suggest what Palestinians should do instead--and that translates to you as finding another way to say that Palestinians are the real terrorists, who started it, amd basically not Jewish so we don't care if they live without dignity--or maybe we are simply ungodly beings who only care about money.

You'e said that rocket attacks were meaningless and that they (Hamas) has the right to defend their land. You have also said that they need better weapons.  Yet Israels reaction to those rockets has created the situation in Gaza; what you call the crime of the century, and a holocaust, if I understand you correctly.

If they had better weapons they could be respected by the military lovin US or they could have a chance of winning and you wouldnt have to bother with the arrogant immoral ones on opendemocracy?

It sounds to me like you are upset that Palestinians cant win the military battle so you are asking us  in the name of decency- to demand that Israel surrender to the moral battle when in reality that is not how it works but in saying that I will probably be accused of justifying collective punishment when all I am doing is stating the facts which are not always decent but it is best to work with what you have.

I will tell you many people here believe that the best way to help anyone is to find a way for them to help themselves. Hearing about palestinians taking a predictable and preventable beating (Israeli aggression is predictable)  It seems obvious to me that anyone would hope they try to be a little more clever in how to stop that.

But they are supposed to suffer indefinitely until the US 'becomes just' and finds another state to move Israelis to, or something. It isnt the job of everyone else besides Palestinian leaders to help palestinians.

 Abdulksaida, I don't care if ISrael is Jewish, Islamic or both.  I have only started looking into this beyond 'there's some kind of irresolvable mess going on over there' since you started posting here. I've been commenting on what I understand to be your argument, not the entirety of the situation.  It's more than  I wanted to say but I am told thatour support for Israel is partially to blame for 9/11 and 9/11 made our invasion into Iraq possible, and occasionally it looks like we intend to do something with Iran, and oh yeah they dont like Israel..what to do but waste time on the internet make a fool out of myself, being misunderstood or ignored. It sounds like a plan. ;-)

This probably has typos all over the place. I dont have time to check it. Good luck with your boss and take care.

iron mike

still i didnt read fully candace , as only yours ,  you first look objective and to what u say and let your friend stop occupation , which is the reason for all conflict and remember that till now your friends and jewish are showing the world that they are victimized of halluacust happen to them since long time, and we are palestinaisns daily are killed, tortured, humulated, homes dimolish, no work, no electricity, no education , kids are killed, no water , no shelter, no food and a shame disaster happen, and also you dont us to be victoms, do u want me to list more suffer to u to have sympathey and know that it is a real suffer and victom and how the victom will think ?

all what u speak is not logic and i swear by Allah if one of your family is killed or you experience the same suffer, so all what u are said will be incorrect and you will not think of only revenge.

Candace, spot on. Great post.

 Abdulksaida:

No-one is simply going to snap their fingers and decide to move all the Jews in Israel to some other stretch of land. It's just not going to happen, whether we like it or not. The Palestinian people have to find another way to peacefully come to an agreement with Israel, and only the palestinians are going to do that: no-one's going to do it for them.

 I'm saying that as neither for nor against Israel or Palestinians.

"You're absolutely right! If Hamas terrorists fired rockets at Israel and one of my family was an innocent victim of an Israeli airstrike taking out the rocket crew, I would want justice (not revenge)levied upon those responsible. I would hold Hamas fully responsible and make it my life's work to eliminate them from power. Without Hamas provocation, my family member would still be alive."-  IM

You have stated a particular case here in which you have no personal involvement with the cause. This was not what Abdulksaida intended I think. Let us suppose you were a supporter, in France, of the French resistance during WWII who were involved in harrassing German occupying forces. If the Germans killed people from your village as a reprisal and deterrent against the resistance's actions (as happened), would you then blame the actions of the resistance for this or the Germans?

Yes, the tactics. The tactics of launching rockets against Israeli civilians result in Israeli strikes against the Palestinian people. Stop the rockets (and other terror tactics), stop the strikes. If Israel continued these strikes in retaliation to a non-cooperation or political movements, then justice should most certainly be served on Israel.

This is where the issue of settlement/expansion of existing settlements come into it. How can Israel expect the Palestinians to feel as if they're being listened to, when they enroach on land which wasn't in any previous poitical agreement? Outrage by the Palestinians over this issue I understand.

abdulksaida,

What you seek is not Justice. It is nothing of the sort. Israel exists and has done so for 60 years. When are you going to grow up and actually accept this simple fact ? How old are you ? How long is it since you lived in Palastine ? Where do you live now ? Your connection to Palastine is probably quite slender now. All you do is represent a grievance and perpetuate a hatered . It is always someones elses fault never yours. The Arabs have fought Israel and lost everytime. The West didn't beat them. You messed it up all on your own. So you have tried the military way; now you are trying the terror way and you seem to have lost that one too. So are you now ready to try and sit down IN GOOD FAITH and talk or is that too much to ask ??

When are you Palastinians going to learn a very, very simple fact. You have been busy with violance and terrorisum for 40 years and just exactly where has it got you ? I'll tell you: NO WHERE. And lets just add another point. Where do you think it will get you ? No where. Islamic terrorisum is only creating hatered of Islam and Muslims here in the West. The contempt I hear for Muslims and Islam would shock and surprise you, but it is a product of Islamic terrorisum and the failure of the Islamic and Muslim world to effectively deal with it. Nothing has done your cause more harm that the pictures of Palastinians dancing in the streets after 9/11. Why should we care or lift a finger to help Palstinians ??

There have been repeated attempts to bring peace to the Middle East and one has to say that they have quite often foundered on unrealistic Palastinian demands. The sooner you and the likes of you learn to live with and find some accomodation with Israel the better for all mankind. But we - the West - can't do this, nor can we help you and the Isrealis agree. You have to do that yourselves. And judging by your posts, the content and tone thereof, I see no chance of that.

Let me start by saying, as I have stated before, I also do not agree with the Palestinian tactics of firing rockets; I can just understand why some Palestinians are doing this and why they are not condemned by other Palestinians.

I really do not accept your answer, Mike, regarding my analogy with the French resistance. It is not necessary to find an identical situation as you are intelligent enough to treat this as a thought experiment. You are saying that you would not support the French resistance tactics of continuing to harrass a German occupying force if this resulted in reprisals against civililian French. Frankly, I do not believe you; you are deliberately avoiding confronting the issues that such a situation could throw up. You can easily find specific situations where there would be some wriggle room, but let us suppose there were very few, as was indeed the case with the French in WWII. What would you have done? Turned over the resistance fighters to the germans?