The truth does not win; the truth is just what is left when everything else is wasted
The truth does not win; the truth is just what is left when everything else is wasted
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The End Of Huntingtonmuslims are not against west
As muslims and arabs, we have not to be predujuce to only our nation whom really we are proud to be followers of islam as most muslims are proud to be muslims. IN the same time we dont hate the west because of its way of life, we like their technology, the hard working, good morals of many of them and the good things with them. most muslims hate only the policy of the west against their problems and especially against palestinians which they support israel We are not in conflict or envey the west of their life, but at the same time we dont want them to impose their culture by force and wars and by showing others that they are superpower and because of their power, it is legitemate to do what they want to do. most muslims want peace and last poll which gallop perform shows majority of muslims are moderate and Gallop say that the west have to understand and know the reality of muslims and islamic world and to erase the theory of conflict of civilazation in relegious , cultural and other aspects . The centre assures that after 6 years of study and survey for 40 islamic country which will issued this month will be refute for all people who lies about muslims and islam and about the peacful relegion they hold. the study and survery assures 2 important things second: the survey say that 93% of the whole world muslims are moderate while the extremists dont exceed 7% of the whole muslims in the world. so both above points will explode all the lying allegation which is propagated after 11 septemter as it concentrate on the idea that muslims hate the western civilazation and dont like west becasue of his democracy or progress in science and the clash between 2 civilazation is inevitable and the islam is encouraging terrrorism and violence. lastly i think different in civilazation and how the east see the west and vice virsa has to be in its correct path and to help in saving blood and providing goodness for all human beings shared the same planet created by only one God (Allah). This is the aim of our creation in this life
Submitted on Sat, 2008-03-22 12:15
reply 112 Million terrorists is just a minor problem?
According to http://www.islamicpopulation.com/ the worldwide poulation of muslims is 1.6 billion, so according to Abdulksaida, we only have to worry about 7% or 112 Million Islamic extremists. Whew! For a minute there I was concerned! The fact remains that while not all Muslims are terrorists, the overwhelming majority of today's terrorists are Muslim. It's up to the 93% of the non-extremist Muslims to fix the problem.
Submitted on Sun, 2008-03-23 18:37
reply depends also on meaning of extriemest
i qoted the survey and translate it from local newspaper, and that is according to the survey and institute, but i dont know questions asked to those 7% and what they reply. may be if they pray all their prayers or they only sympathize with the weak or understand issues , they consider extrimst !!! i dont know, but according even to the point of view and west liking statistics majority need peace and in my point of view, if really they are extreimist, so the west policy is responsible for creating them by its violence, by establishing israel, the terror country and by destroying 2 countries and milllions of iraqi now also are refugee in their countries and outside, and also killing 1 million iraqi, so that creats 7% as mike said and he has to worry, so before worry how US policy treat the majority who is moderate and peacful people and invoking them to hate any thing from America , even many can recognize who the fault is, it is only US administration and not normal American people.
Submitted on Mon, 2008-03-24 03:40
reply More to the Story?
ger mennens, [quote]. . . liberal democracy makes the economic system of the free market possible.[/quote] It can be argued the other way around, and some, including Fukuyama have more recently begun to do so. I hold the two are synergistic. You can find the argument here: http://blogs.salon.com/0001185/ Follow the link in the introduction to the three essays at the bottom of the blog, especially ‘Science and Modernity’. [quote] The consequence is that we now live in a world in which all is about economic interests. Ideological – and thus religious – conflicts will not be that much important and the use of military means can be replaced by economic means.[/quote] Not so Fast! The consequence is vast levels of destabilization, occasioned by the too often heedless impacts of enormous disparities in wealth between societies now ‘in’ on the game and those still out, make ‘traditional’ sources of reassurance and stability rather more important than otherwise. The arguments you make in what follows upon the passage cited would appear to apply equally to the early 20th century, and, in fact, were made then. It didn't exactly work out as proposed. I don’t disagree with you, but believe there is more to ‘the story’
Submitted on Mon, 2008-03-24 04:41
reply Free Markets and democracy
[quote]The free market depends on democracy[/quote] Far from depending on democracy the so called free market undermines and subverts both democracy and itself in a number of ways: 1 The market has a natural tendency to monopoly. Players who gain early advantage use that advantage to load the market in favour of themselves. 2 This leads to all markets being dominated by very large players with similar political interests: ie unfair distribution of wealth in favour of themselves. 3 The nature of bourgoise democracy allows those with large amounts of money to dominate the political arena. Political parties make a lot of noise about their ideological differences but in fact they are all in hock to the same interests. Big Business will win the current US Presidential election as it always does because no candidate can possibly win without representing its interests above the interests of the people. The best example of this was Clinton's promise to socialise US health care. Once in power he bowed to the insurance companies and we heard no more about it. 4 Part of the monopoly power involves control of press and media. In some countries there is a social democratic legacy which means that there is some democratic control over the media but by and large the public will not get to hear anything which big business does not want it to hear. Or at least, whatever information it does get will be weighted heavily towards the interests of big business. 5 The strongest contradiction of your claim is happening today in China. There is a "free" market (all the caveats above notwithstanding) but no national democracy - and even the (albeit limited) village and factory level democracy which existed under socialism has been either diluted or destroyed entirely. The capitalists have a fantasy come true - capitalism with a government which is willing to drive tanks over anyone who gets in its way.
Submitted on Tue, 2008-03-25 11:58
reply BigC Blows His Horn Again
BigC(RAP); Despite your fear mongering about Big Business, the vast majority of business and business wealth in the US (about 80 percent) is generated by small businesses. That is why people from all over the world come here and start their own.
Submitted on Tue, 2008-03-25 20:41
reply Re: Free Markets and Democracy
Big C,
You have just made the classic Marxist exposition. The great difficulty is that this analysis was clearly implicit in the Communist Manifesto of 1848, and was well and insistently made at that time. It is now 160 years old, and we can see that its predictive value has been essentially nil.
Here in point 3 you have chosen to directly address the situation in America.
So what EXACTLY do you take exception to in the following:
The ‘American Experiment’ has been defined by realizing a greater measure of political freedom, social equity, and material well being for a larger proportion of its people, over a longer period of time than any large-scale society in history. One can well argue – our considerable failure to live up to our ideals not with standing – that the broad, general success of the American Experiment is the single most hopeful thing in the human story.
The history since 1848 has shown Western Europe, Japan, and the Pacfic Ring to follow along on (roughly) the American line, and now India and China appear to be coming along as well. This is hardly the kind of outcome to be anticipated from the bleak and, it would appear, virtually hopeless, ‘reality’ laid out in your exposition.
HOPELESS! Of Course until: ‘Comes the Revolution’? Beyond the American Revolution, most others have proven to be a distinctly ‘mixed blessing’ for those caught up in them, and even for us (the Civil War), and most especially for Native Americans and Blacks, the ‘blessing’ has been significantly ‘mixed’. My argument remains, you, ger mennens, (and Marx!) miss part of ‘the story'.
Submitted on Wed, 2008-03-26 13:57
reply free markets and revolutions
Hi Ron [quote]It is now 160 years old, and we can see that its predictive value has been essentially nil.[/quote] That's an incredibly sweeping statement, is patently untrue (the current banking crisis being a classic example) and I'm quite happy to debate it elsewhere. For the purposes of this debate however I will stick to defending the points I've made. [quote]So what EXACTLY do you take exception to in the following: The ‘American Experiment’ has been defined by realizing a greater measure of political freedom, social equity, and material well being for a larger proportion of its people, over a longer period of time than any large-scale society in history. One can well argue – our considerable failure to live up to our ideals not with standing – that the broad, general success of the American Experiment is the single most hopeful thing in the human story.[/quote] Well it's a massively simplistic statement. For example, how much political freedom was afforded the slaves upon whose misery much of your prosperity is based. And what about the Indians? The most successful ethnic cleansing in the history of the planet! You can bet the Nazis took copious notes on that one. And yes there has been prosperity but it has been patchy and mal-distributed with dreadful poverty and deprivation existing alongside opulence. There was a brief spell when strong trade unions gave the majority a share approching equitable in the prosperity generated by their labour. This started with the Second World War and ended about 10 - 20 years ago. Since then real wages have remained static while the share appropriated by by the fat cats has rocketed. And you can rest assured that the people most hit by the coming dollar plummet will not be the ones who have profited from the policies which made it happen. What's more a large part of US "prosperity" is directly attributable to the deficit. This was going to come to an end sooner or later anyway and, thanks to Bernanke and Paulson's rescuing the fat cat bankers from the consequences of their stupidity and greed, it now looks imminent and possibly fatal. This last act showing that the markets are anything but free when it comes to the rich taking a hit. Wall street is the richest welfare line in history. Proof that public policy is dictated by the rich, not the majority. And as for political freedom, the glorified game show which is your presidential election says it all. [quote]The history since 1848 has shown Western Europe, Japan, and the Pacfic Ring to follow along on (roughly) the American line, and now India and China appear to be coming along as well[/quote] America's industrial development followed the European model - not the other way around. America has only taken the lead in the disastrous neo-liberal policies of the last 30 years or so. As for China, a more bleak and despairing future couldn't be imagined. India's is slightly different. It has a well educated middle class in some of the cities and some history of social democracy. We'll have to wait and see what happens there. As for revolutions well there've been a few and I daresay there'll be a few more. The first French revolution failed the first time around but it did last 25 years and the principles it laid down have been the basis for bourgeoise democracy ever since. And of course it did rise again after a period of re-imposed monarchy. I'm not sure if you'd characterise the struggles which created Italy and Greece as revolutions. They've certainly endured. It's now fashionable to characterise the Russian Revolution as a failure but it lasted more than 70 years - nearly three times as long as the first French Revolution. When the Bolsheviks took power they inherited an utterly failed state composing dozens of nationalities living in the utmost poverty. It was militarilly irrelevant and still essentially feudal. By the time the revolution ended Russia was a millitary superpower. OK, it's people's standard of living wasn't very high by US standards but considering the starting point the level reached was a remarkable achievement. And that's after two massive foreign invasions, a twenty year period in which it was run by a man so mad that even John (bomb,bomb,bomb) McCain looks sane beside him and it also had to contend with a fractious and decaying empire inherited from the Tsars - ultimately the achilles heel. Some successful ones? Well just go to Florida and look across the water. You'll see the best health care system in the world, the lowest infant mortality in the Americas (including the US) and the highest literacy and numeracy in the Americas (again including the US). Again that's after being under siege from the world's biggest superpower for 50 years. Oppressive? Well where's the counter revolution then? And don't use the migration issue. Migration from the non-socialist countries is far greater. And a bit further south for another successful revolution where, in spite of US spoiling attempts the Venezuelans are likely to achieve the same. And the trend is continuing throughout Latin America. I think I've wandered off the point of this thread in response to your arguments so I apologise for that. If anyone wants to discuss revolutions past, present or future then maybe it should be in another thread rather than hi-jacking this one. I'll end with a question for you Ron which hopefully will bring us back on thread:
Do you dispute that the rich have used their economic power to
Submitted on Fri, 2008-03-28 12:26
reply Misapprehensions
Big C, [quote]That's an incredibly sweeping statement . . . Well it's a massively simplistic statement . . .[/quote] Yes, of course! I am painting with a VERY broad brush and freely admit it. I think I have decried our problem. What you see as the forest, I see as the trees. Likewise what I see as the forest, you see as the trees. To reflect on the little 'Left/Right piece I have posted here and elsewhere, the left sees the classic Marxist forest, within which they might admit there are some (few) trees growin' good, while the right sees its beloved free market/Adam Smith forest, in which it might admit to a few unfortunate misshapen trees, growin' poorly. I am about to propose a conceptualism on a separate thread that, at least, may bring a useful focus to the discussion here. Till then, take care. P.S. Where's ger?
Submitted on Sat, 2008-03-29 13:23
reply Post new comment |
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The 9/11 attacks as well as the Madrid ones, and the murder of the Dutch film maker Theo Van Gogh by Muslim extremists…What once was far away in the USA came closer to our homes, such as the murder on Van Gogh showed us. The Islam in many countries in Europe came under a bad spotlight. It has lead to a sharp polarisation between the Muslim world and the West. It is going on and on this way and populist politicians such as Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, see their chance to provoke and insult other cultures and of course the Islam. His film, probably showing the 'backwardness' of the Islam can be seen in the tradition of what is called the unavoidable 'bloodsheding' war between cultures. All of this seemed to have been predicted by Samuel Huntington as he wrote his world famous and much talked about article Clash of civilisations in 1993, later on elaborated in his book The clash of Civilizations where he poses the thesis that the end of the Cold War has introduced a new area where cultures will form the pattern along which conflicts will arise. In this article I want to warn for the danger of Huntington’s these and show a better paradigm for international relations. Kochler rightly argues that Huntington’s paradigm a danger forms for the global world order. Perception creates reality. A ‘theory’ describing the world as a unavoidable clash between civilisations, has the effect that the perceived clash becomes reality. This interdependency between perception and reality can be shown by the following action-reaction schedule. (A) The perception of a treat gets used by the elite of one or more member states of a civilisation to mobilise the public for the realisation of hidden interests. Interests that can be realised by perceiving actions as preventive self-defence. An example is the war against Iraq. The perception of a treat works as a vehicle of real warfare. Oil is the hidden interest. (B) The countries (of the civilisations) that are seen as a treat will come with a counter-action. This one has two elements. They will oppose the dominant culture (the West) and they will assert themselves. The following step is that they will come into action under the name of self- defence against those international actors who threaten them, namely, the countries who want to start a preventive war under the same motive. This preventive war will be labelled as the strife for national interests – economic or political. In this way a vicious circle of threat perception and defensive war comes into life. Huntington’s these becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in this way. Is the The clash of civilisations perhaps nothing more than a ‘theory’ providing the West (read: Bush) a legitimation to realize plans in the Middle East and Central Asia? This means safeguarding the entry to oil and settling a West and Israel befriended system? It depends on what the Western civilisations does with Huntington’s political policy advices. The war against terrorism – even if oil and other motives play a role – showed that there is no clash between the whole Muslim world and the West. A lot of support from Muslim countries was the foundation for peaceful co-operation. On the other hand, ‘mulsimbrothers’ have called each other traitors for co-operating with the West. Is it then, the Machiavellian divide and rule tactic, more explicitly Huntington’s advise to exploit differences among the groups within a civilisation? How scientific is a these serving political goals? Huntington has a range of political advises for the government and it seems often to happen that his ‘facts’ are submitted to his theory. Manipulating and selecting facts to make them fit for his paradigm. He calls several conflicts typical ‘civilisation’ conflicts (the war against Iraq) whereas it is nothing else than a conflict where national interests (oil) are at stake. He thinks of new civilisations where they don’t exist as separate ones, such as South America, as he admits, for the reason of analytic theory. Turning reality upside down. Above all this he gives advises that contradict. He poses Russia theoretically in the Orthodox civilisation, where he advises the government to push this country in the direction of the E.U.
Said sees Huntington’s theory as an ideological and strategic instrument to influence American Defence and foreign politics. He happened to be an important advisor of the Pentagon a year after the publication of his article. His theory can be seen as serving the interests of the representatives of the weapon industry. He doesn’t mind that his theoretical threat leads to a real confrontation, through which post factum this actual threat will be used to prove that Huntington was right. Maybe another paradigm offers a better perspective on international relations. In his article The End of History Fukuyama presents a perspective on the global order, making Huntington superfluous. He says the end of the Cold War has started the universalisation of Western liberal democracy. Competing ideologies came to an end. This already was the case at the Battle of Jena as the principles of the French Revolution got realised, that underlie modern democracy. Two alternatives for the democracy that occurred after the French Revolution, communism and fascism failed. Fascism got beaten after World War 2 and its lack of success made it unpopular. Communism failed because it was clear that the class problem could be solved within liberal context. Egalitarism, such as realised in the USA society represented the Marxist classless society. With the fall of the iron curtain the Western alternative got more popular in Eastern Europe. Fukuyama points at developments indicating that the democratic system gets even more universal. In China Marxism as an economic system looses its function. Government has started with a large range of decollectivation of agrarian sector, the role of the State has been reduced to that of a tax collector and the production of commodities have increased while in the cities a large layer of bourgeoisie consumers have come into being. The economy is now more open to the world as never before. In Russia there were developments of the same sort. Stalinism got replaced by liberal principles. Central planning lead to an inefficient economy en got replaced by forms of decentred decision making in the field of investments, prices and labour. Free market, Rule of Law, separation of powers and protection of poverty became the new pillars of the system. Consumentalism and free market are also winning influence elsewhere in Asia, as the ‘newly industrializing countries’ are following the success of Japan.
The liberal democracy makes the economic system of the free market possible. The consequence is that we now life in a world in which all is about economic interests. Ideological – and thus religious – conflicts will not be that much important and the use of military means can be replaced by economic means. This does not mean religion and spirituality will totally disappear from the scene. Culture will remain an aspect of an individual’s life, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be the overarching identity of a person and certainly not of a State in international relations, when these states are open to the fact that the world has entered the stage of the ‘common marketisation’ of international relations. Economic calculation, technical problems, environmental interests are now the most important motives of action. Communism as an economic system doesn’t go hand in hand with representative democracy. The free market depends on democracy. The end of the Cold War lead to a big increase of liberal democracies in the world and to a decline of the total of war conflicts in the world, wars between states and ethnical wars. Is there a causal relation between free market, democracy and war? In On Democracy Dahl showed us that democracies are less likely to get in war with each other. The high level of trade between countries requires trust, friendliness and trade can’t be fluent while war. Democracies have also learned the art of compromising and the members of democratic states don’t see the others as threatening. The free market requires that people can move freely between the States and that commodities can move over the open market without hinder and too much government control. Conflicts make trade, which leads to the necessary fulfilment of consumption needs, impossible. Last but not least, democracies don’t get in war because they share the same values. Since the end of the Cold war there is an increase of democracies – which will go on – and therefore, other than Huntington thinks, the possibility of conflicts will diminish.
If we take Fukuyama’s paradigm as a better way of seeing the world order, an other way of dealing with international affairs is needed. The End of Huntington. Globalisation, driven by economical needs of the consumers, can transform the so called ‘clash’ into a system of cooperation. A cosmopolitan space has been opened of economic, cultural and social interaction. A synthesis of forces – that are now being perceived as opposing – is possible by agreeing on a base of co existence using minimal norms and values. Tolerance, freedom, mutual understanding and trust. Its clear that this needs a policy of dialogue. Kochler gives a good direction of how to achieve this. Globalisation must strife for inclusion. It requires revision of prejudices, developing communal values and integration by debate. Knowledge is a factor of essential interest in this process. Simply black and white thinking, appointing certain countries already as ‘the axe of evil’ makes a dialogue impossible. Polarisation and making the public fear neither. The interdependency of economies, the new media, internet shows how open the world is, how much supposed opposition between ‘cultures’ don’t exist on a human level, where people are not boxed into singular culture-defined identities….Disagreement or resistance, flag burning and such, directed against the West are not per se acts expressing hate against the West. Its either directed against the policy from the US (that is, Bush) in the Muslim world, or there is a dislike about the try to dominate USA way of life over the world. Taste, whether it being good or bad taste, however is not a question of politics. Hoping this article will open to more dialogue in stead of polarisation. This on the eve of Geert Wilders’ publication of the anti-Islam movie
ger mennens