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The Blockade on Gaza: Crime against humanityNo electricity, people are going hungry, no bread, and no medicine and lots of things that are missing. people are out in the streets now calling for the world to end the starvation and siege. It might be that people's only option is to break out the borderline and go to Egypt and get food. It's scary here. no bread, no water at home where I am. I have some leftovers biscuits from two days ago. but my laptop batteries will be flat soon. I will find a new agency from those who have electricity generators to recharge my laptop and keep online, if you don't hear from me this is why. Again, I fear Israeli warplanes will bomb the people in the streets. people are in lines trying to find bread. I never seen this in all my 23 years life!´ Mohammed Omer '' Only prompt, innovative and courageous political action can change the harsh reality of this long-standing occupation, restore normal social and economic life to the Palestinian people, and allow them to live their lives in dignity '' Report of the International Red Cross ''Dignity Denied'' THE BLOCKADE ON GAZA This article is dedicated to the people of Gaza FOREWORD: To the people of Gaza Keep up courage, however hard The right on freedom and selfdetermination is one of the elementary human rights In solidarity Astrid Essed The first, horrifying quote is an appeal for help by the Gazan reporter Mohammed Omer, as he has sent several in the last weeks of january [1] It referred to the recent total Israeli blockade on Gaza, which has been eased only after heavy international pressure I quote: '' Just now. Blood and flesh. 20 people just killed in the ministry of interior and a wedding now.. More bomings.Are called today. M [2] January 17, 2008, 15.40 hrs Netherlands time'' More than extensive reports or this article, the quotes and SMS's from Mohammed Oner, which have been confirmed by other sources, show the Israeli crimes against the people of Gaza, which can be qualified as crimes against humanity Shocking is also the appeal from the usually neutral International Red Cross for ''courageous political actions'' [3] A Israeli blockades and the humanitarian consequences for the Gazan civilian population Yet apart from the daily misery, caused by the regular Israeli military attacks, the Gazan civilian population has paid a high humanitarian price since the American-EU boycot, in reaction on the democratical electoral victory of Hamas dd january 2006 A Humanitarian price: A considerable lack of medicines and primary necessities of life, especially due to the recent Israeli blockades, are the direct humanitarian consequences The most horrifying examples are the number of sick people, who have died at the frontier between Israel and Gaza, or in Gazan hospitals, because admission to Israeli hospitals for further treatment were denied 1 Israeli declaration of Gaza as ''hostile territory'' In september 2007, the Israeli authorities declared Gaza as ''hostile territory'' This is no ''incident'', but systematic Israeli military behaviour Not only such a military attitude against an unarmed civilian population is disgusting, moreover it is violating International Humanitarian Law, which states, that at all times, by all parties to a conflict, a clear distinction must be made between combatants [military and fighters] and non-combatants [civilians] Also this illegal ''Israeli declaration'' is not only a ''justification'' for the following Israeli blockades of Gaza [which took place also before that time], but as well a ''legitimation'' for the Israeli indiscriminate military attacks on Gaza 2 System in the Evil In earlier comments, the writer of this article has stipulated on the fact, that the Israeli military attacks on Gaza, on the pretext of searching for Palestinian fighters, are contrary with International Humanitarian Law, because any distinction is lacking between civilians and fighters , as well regarding indiscriminate military shooting-behaviour in Gazan refugee-camps and living areas, as regarding airbombings on refugee-camps and dense populated areas with non-precision weapons as F'16 's [6] The tragic consequence over the years has been the hugh amount of civilian victims Those deadly victims are also being caused by the illegal Israeli extrajudicial executions of leaders and activists of Palestinian political organisations, by shootings of cars in crowded streets and market-places and airbombings on living areas, refugeecamps and living appartments Recently, one Palestinian woman has been killed as result of an air-bombing on the Palestinian Ministry of Interior dd 17-1 3 Israeli blockades on Gaza Like said before, the Israeli Gaza-blockades aren't a new phenomenon, but a relatively old ''tactic'', with devastating consequences for the civilian population Economical: Many Gazans are dependant on work in Israel for the bare necessities of life Humanitarian consequences: Medical and foodcrisis Medical: The medical situation in Gaza also is a reason for grave concern, due to the blockade of fuel and electricity, as well by the fysical blockade of the population. And to make the situation still worse: An important part of medical supplies can't reach the sick people in Gaza either, due to the blockade Famine According to article 55, 4th Geneva Convention, the Occupying Power, in casu Israel, has the duty of ensuring food and medical supplies to the occupied population Due to those blockades, there is an outbreak of famine, because Gaza is largerly dependant on international help International reaction on the total Israeli blockade on Gaza As a reaction on the heavy international pressure regarding the total blockade on Gaza [january 2008], Israel had been compelled to allow a small amount of fuel and other supplies again However it may be obvious, that only a total end of the blockade can really contribute to the end of the humanitarian crisis Therefore it was an important relief to the Gazan population, that the Egyptian authorities temporatily decided to open the borders, for buying food-supplies Israels obligation as occupying Power Already has been mentioned the disgusting aspect of this dirty war against the civilian population Another important fact is, that Israel is still the occupying Power in Gaza and has therefore the responsibility to guarantee the safety, wellbeing and welfare of the occupied population Although Israel declares, not being an occupying power anymore, since the withdrawal of the Israeli troops in 2005, this is not true, because Israel still controls the air, land and sea-borders of Gaza Collective punishment Those blockades which are doing harm to the civilian population as a whole, are a ''collective punishment'' which is strictly forbidden according International Law [7] 4 Israel's ''justification'' The Iraeli military actions or blockades are often justified by Israel, as a ''retaliation'' for Palestinian military actions like the unlawful Palestinian rocket-attacks on the Israeli city Sderot However, this is no excuse justification for Israel, to violate the human rights of the Palestinian civilian population The Palestinian rocket-attacks on Sderot and other Israeli civilian areas: Seeing from this perspective, also the arbitrary Palestinian rocket-attacks on Sderot or other Israeli civilian areas are illegal according International Law [8] Just like in the Israeli case, those rocket attacks are serious human rights violations , because no distinction has been made between civilians and the military Because of this international obligation at all times to make this disctinction, the Palestinian argument is no valid, that this is an asymmetrical conflict, however understandable it may seem [9] At all times as well Israeli as the Palestinian must be protected by both parties to the conflict 5 Israeli blockade CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY Not yet is mentioned the fact, that those Israeli blockades against an unarmed, defenseless civilian population is a crime against humanity For your information: According to the Statute of the ICC [International Criminal Court], one of the categories of crimes of humanity are ''inhuman actions with an international and systematic character'' [10] In this respect, the systematic Israeli blockades [wholly or partially] of Gaza can be qualified as such, since the Israeli authorities are aware of the fact, that the civilian population is seriously hurt. In this respect it need to be said, that the humanitarian situation of the Palestinian population on the occupied Westbank is very grave too, because of the building of the Wall, the expansion of the illegal settlements, the checkpoints and the systematic Israeli military retaliatory measures [11) 6 Head and co-responsibility It is obvious, that the Israeli authorities are head-responsible for the humanitarian disaster in the occupied Palestinian territories. However, they are not the sole responsibles One of the main co responsibles is the USA, by continuing economical, political and especially military support to Israel. However, the co responsibility of the EU should not be forgotten, not only in maintaining the Hamas-boycot, but also by her policy '' no actions, but words'', crying crocodilestears about Israeli human rights violations, without putting any political pressure on Israel [13] 7 The key, the Israeli occupation: The main denial of the Western countries seems however to be the fact, that the crux of the contemporary Middle East-conflicts is based on the 40 years Israeli occupation, settlementspolicy and the humanitarian consequences of that occupation, as oppression, humiliations and human rights violations. Their policy is not based on the implementation of UN Security resolution nr 242 dd 1967, the dismantling of the Israeli Wall, which is building through Palestinian occupied area and the dismantling of the illegal Israeli settlements. [14] For this reason, every ''peace-initiative'' is doomed to fail, because yet besides of the American/EU denial of the Israeli occupation, there are no equal parties, but a negociation between oppressor and oppressed The Palestinian military attacks on Israeli civilian goals are reprehensible and illegal, but the direct cause is lying in the continuation of the Israeli occupation, the creating ¨ of ´´facts on the grounds´´ by the expansion of the settlements and the building of the Wall, and not to forget the Israeli military actions, which cause many civilian death. The only way to create a lasting peace in the Middle East is rooted in the implementation of as well the UN resolutions, as the other humanitarian rights treaties, like the Geneva Conventions An old proverb is telling us Continuation of the occupation, as well as the starvation of the Palestinian civilian population will cause a further polarisation, with all desastrous consequences Astrid Essed Notes and links [1] Mohammed Omer is a 23 years old journalist from Rafah, in Gaza, who from his 16 years is reporting , with great personal risk, about the political and humanitarian consequences of the Israeli occupation, especially about house demolitions [from which he and his family became victim, too], Israeli military operations and the liquidations of Palestinian activists and political leaders See also: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6187.shtml http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=d85cea2322312e2f1ec429d29a543f91 Shocking photographs about the humanitarian situation in Gaza See http://www.rafahtoday.org/ [2] The SMS about the Israeli military attack on the Palestinian Ministry of Interior was an emergency SMS [3] See the Red Cross report ''Dignity denied'' http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-report-131207 [4] See http://countercurrents.org/omer220108.htm [5] See http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2006/10/1163034.php [6] See the essential rules of International Humanitarian Law: http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5KZFJU [7] According to article 33, 4th Geneva Convention, a collective punishment is strictly forbidden See http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5 [8] Those Palestinian rocket-attacks take place with insufficiently accurate weapons, with all risks involved for the Israeli civilian population [9] The assymetrical conflict is referring to the high technical Israeli army versus the low technical Palestinian fighters and their very limited means See: http://hrw.org/reports/2007/iopt0807/2.htm#_Toc173055037 http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/09/01/lebano16790.htm [10] Other important categories of ''crimes of humanity'' are genocide, slavery, racial perscution and arbitrary detention and torture See http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/iccelementsofcrimes.html [11] The Wall: The building of the Israeli Wall is illegal according to the verdict of the IJC [International Court of Justice] dd july 2005, among else on the fact, that it runs through Palestinian occupied area The settlements: Despite of international protests and the agreements in the Roadmap of Peace, Israel still is expanding the settlements in the Westbank The checkpoints: The checkpoints are military controleposts through the whole occupied Westbank, seriously hindering the freedom of movement of the Palestinians Since the checkpoints are being placed between neighouring villages, a travel of a couple of hours can last days, when permit is refused and people are obliged to seek for an alternative travelroute Apart from this serious breach on the freedom of movement, the checkpoint-policy varies from checkpoint to checkpoint and time to time, which is totally arbitrary A form of discrimination is also, that for Israeli's [mosty settlers], there is no travelrestriction at all Yet apart from this discrimination and lack of freedom of movement, in many cases, the common treatment of the Palestinian population varies of lack of respect till inhuman behaviour. In the Westbank there are 99 checkpoints See also: http://www.btselem.org/english/Freedom_of_Movement/Checkpoints_and_Forbidden_Roads.asp [12] Report of the International Red Cross: http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-report-131207 [13] Formally EU is condemning Israeli war-crimes like arbitrary military attacks on Gaza and Gaza blockades, but without any political pressure on Israel, like suspending or dismantling the Association-accord with Israel [a profitable trade agreement] [14] UN Security Council Resolution 242, dd 1967, calling on Israel to withdraw its troops from the territories it had conquered in the june war, among else the Palestinian territories
Submitted on Wed, 2008-02-13 21:45
Late For A Debate
astri; Every one of your points has been dealt with and dismissed. hallacust against gaza now
for 3 days now 52 palestinains have been killed and all of them are civilians amnong them kids and old people israel says before days, let palestinians wait a real hallucaust and they start it among the silence of the whole world still gaza is blocked and people really are under hallucaust, what the jewish people will say, what others whom defend jewish hallucaust whould say now ? i dont know if the west media shows the auwful scenes of killed kids and their relatives whom died, really shame of all of us. abduls' lies
for 3 days now 52 palestinains have been killed and all of them are civilians amnong them kids and old people israel says before days, let palestinians wait a real hallucaust and they start it among the silence of the whole world still gaza is blocked and people really are under hallucaust, what the jewish people will say, what others whom defend jewish hallucaust whould say now ? i dont know if the west media shows the auwful scenes of killed kids and their relatives whom died, really shame of all of us. What a drama queen and full of lies. Here's an update. Since Wednesday 100 palestinians have been killed. 90% of whom are terrorists. Is the firing of rockets at Israel worth such a costly price? 
Batman's math
Hamas has launched rockets that have killed three Israelis in the past year. Yesterday, Staurday the 2nd of March 2008, Isreal killed at least 30 Palestinian civilians out of a total of 96 dead. At least 30 confirmed civilians. Now I know that batman thinks of Palestinians as terrorists, no matter what age, but I think it's fair to say that his comments verge on the insane and the criminal. Batman only posts here when Israel has committed a war crimes. Otherwise he would not even visit. He has no interest in democracy, he's a totalitarian war pig. Sources Differ
Offendin Brendan; Terrorist vs civilian casualties in Gaza? One factor to consider when listening to reports from the Mideast are the journalists. Many are Arab stringers of dubious reliability. different sources but the real is the same
Trrysborn i mean the photos of the innocent killed kids and womens and old people, the horror and weepings of all the families, the real red blood shed is seen, we are not blind , also the whole world have eyes to verify the number of real civilians whom are killed. really a haulacust to palestinians hoping the whole world would defend those innocent peple whom cant live in dignity as they till now remeber the jewish hallucaust and even prison any one who only try to decrease the no of causalities occur to them. who is lying mr batman? and really as brenard said, i think you feel may be guilty of your soldiers and try to say incorrect things , iam not lying tell now 69 of palestinians have been killed 11 of kids and i saw a family in TV as the kid is the first for the family and he was sitting on his chair and i saw the weeping of his mother and father and the rocket came to him, it seems you dont see what we r seeing. I saw them in TV alive and you only read. Of course the west media will not show you the whole story. not all arabs
the unbais media would report everything, what u mean arab reporters? do u mean they are lying? you can see the bodies in refregerator and not listining. they gave us legitimate evidence moreover before 4 days one group of british children in sirk visit palestine in one of the villages near one wall stolen from israel those children wants to give fun and joy for palestinians kids and they wearing the sircus clothes and the palestinians kids gathered intenting to play and have fun and suddenly the gas was spread from the israel weapons and we saw them in TV alive and not arab reporter who convey that, and we saw the british children are escaping and photographers and as a sudden yes those innocent palestinians kids holds rockets only to feel dignity and try to defend them selves and a sigh of rejection. who will creat people who hate the israeli soldiers and for israel,it is israel itself . So their are many evidences how they dont want even palestinians kids to watch anything fun . before days also a japanees man who is with peace have been polleted to eye and may be he will loose one of his eyes from the israel soldiers.
Tt
Confirmed from multiple sources. At least look into it yourself before slipping directly into denial of the facts. stealing palestinian land cost that price
batman yes till now 116 innocent palestinans have been killed, more than 12 kids have been killed, also womens and old people, others are defenders and not terrorists. you know the real terrorist whom steal and killed our people in palestine. for only 1 israeli soldiers they kill more than 116 palestinians, they dont care for any peace, how they want peace with palestinians after they steal all the land and attempt to kill the rest of them by blockage of gaza and killing them, so how we palestinains beleive that the world would give us a state, first of all , daily israel confiscate more land and steal it and secondly kill our people with intense especially young people also as if to let us with no land and no people, so of course how we will take a state if we dont have land and no people. i dont beleive any negotiations with jewish, also the US dont want, dont be naive and beleive that your country is a terror state. 
Death toll on the head of Hamas!
Yesterday, Staurday the 2nd of March 2008, Isreal killed at least 30 Palestinian civilians out of a total of 96 dead. At least 30 confirmed civilians.
Israel responded to the non-stop barrage of rockets from the Gaza. No nation abdicates the right of self-defense. Since the Israeli strikes were in response to Palestinian aggression, the responsibility for the innocent deaths fall directly back upon those who initiated the aggression--the Palestinian rocket crews...66 of whom will not be launching any more. It's a horrific tragedy and completely avoidable...stop the rockets and save lives! Denial Of Facts?
Offendin Brendan; Rather than deny facts, I say verify them. We have all been burned in the past by wrong reports. The Al Doorah case of a few years ago is a prime example. France 2 released film of an Arab child, Muhammad al-Durah, and his father caught in the middle of a firefight between Palestinians and Israeils. France 2 claimed the child was shot by the Israelis. They refused to released the unedited footage. French ballistics expert, Jean Claude Schlinger ( with 20 years experience) testified last week in court that based on the injuries reported, the angles of fire and he weapons of both sides, the boy could not have been shot from the Israeli side. Even the timing of events are in doubt. According to Schlinger "If the injuries reported are genuine, they could not have occured at the time of events reported by France 2.... It is very possible this was staged." Film of Arab stringers staging events have been available on the internet for some time. If nothing else, these frauds cast suspicion on everything reported by Arab journalists. Again, facts should be verified. stop occupation and save life and dignity
iron mike really strange, how only u ask the victom not to fefend themselves and ask the aggressor to continue killing others whom he steal their land, is that sense? yes i know now the whole world is crazy and no sense in anything and the whorld is full of lying but not to that extent. tell israel to stop occupation, stop aggreesive, give palestinians basic rights, give them their demolished homes, stolen land, burried their olive trees. palestinians dont ask for the moon , they want only to live in dignity in their land which by killing and aggressive and blood shed and with the help of the whole world wants others to see that they are right. go to u conscious mr iron and know who is the guilty before. stop occupation , occupation is more worse than those rockets , it kills all the palestinians, what the world wants more. really no morals and justice and it is shame on all whom justify what israel is now doing. really big shame and each one is responsible one day even in front of God about his thoughts and if he or she is with justice or not .
Want peace? Stop the rockets!
The Palestinians claim to want peace, but continously barrage Israel with rockets during negotiations. When you defend Palestinian aggression, you share the responsibility for the innocent deaths caused by Israeli counterattacks. Palestinians clearly want the occupation to continue and enjoy watching their children die. That the only logical conclusion based on their refusal to stop the rockets and negotiate in good faith. You are not a victim when Israel defends itself against your aggression. You will NEVER stop the occupation by force. Those who believe otherwise are either ideologues or morons. STOP the rockets, Save the children, Negotiate for peace. It's a simple recipe. Until you learn it, the world will have little sympathy for your self-inflicted suffering. stop occupation, save the children , then negotiate for peace
israel wants cleary the occupation to continue, not the victoms, and israel and US departement enjoy watching palestinians dying, and that is the only logical conclusion based on refusing only to apply UN resolutions which now even UN is influenced by superpower and cant do anything, so amazing. israel is not innocent, when they start doing massacres to palestinians and occupy their land and the land of their grandfathers and let us exile. why 5 millions are refugee now and exile, is it from hamas rockets also ? be just and think justly and humanly. also it is a simple recipe for israle and all to learn why israel not stop occupation and then rockets will stop why u give execuses to israel to defend their land and dont give it the same to hamas, is it the same. also they defend their land and people after blockade, stealing more land and many thing. I think all people in the world whom are humanbeings and have sense of justice would never be with israel and their aggression. really strange the aggressor wants to appear to the world as a victom, really we are in a world with no morals any more. out of sense
iron mike how u have consious to say that palestiniasn are happy for their children to die, really unbelevable statement and out of logic. they are human beings,and if u really are not bias , so go and see photos of their victoms and their families and how they are crying and grieving, see the blood all over the home, see how israeli soldiers even steal some gold and money from homes they came to as one family in alarabia show how soldiers demolish the home, and let 60 persons of the family to be prisoned in one room , not letting them even to go to path and steal what they want and shoot 2 of them, and the grandmother was crying and show in TV how the soldiers are doing. besides go to aljazeera in english and see alive photos to be sure that palestinians are the same as others have hearts and dont like their children to be killed, but what to do when rockets came over them while evening sleeping.
Hamas attacks are logical and immoral
"...how u have consious to say that palestiniasn are happy for their children to die, really unbelevable statement and out of logic.
It's actually quite logical conclusion based upon observed Palestinian behavior. Palestinians KNOW that by locating launch sites within residential areas are likely to result in civilian casualties when Israel responds. Palestinians KNOW that when they fire rockets into Israel that Israel WILL respond by attacking launch sites. Hamas CHOOSES to initiate aggression and fire rockets into Israel knowing Israel will respond and there WILL be collateral damage and death. Hamas KNOWS that world attention will be brought to bear on the Palestinians through horrific pictures of death and destruction, Therefore, Hamas must WANT to cause the deaths of Palestinians, thus creating the image of victimization and strengthening their political leverage. Perfectly logical and absolutely immoral. Shame on Hamas! Becoming less logical I'm afraid Mike
Why? Because I'm sure they're lots of people like me who really don't give a damn anymore. Let them kill each other, destroy each other...whatever, I really couldn't care any less. When the Israeli/Palestinian conflict comes up on the news I change the channel, when I come across it in the local newspapers I skip the article. The world will continue regardless of what happens in THEIR conflict, and you know what? Perhaps they even deserve each other.
Sad, but true.
Chris speaks for much of the world who is tired of the pointless, endless cycle of violence. Palestinians claim victim status, launch attack against Israel, absorb devastating counterattack from Israel, point to casualties, claim victim status, launch attack, yada, yada, yada.... At least Israel has demonstrated the willingness to negotiate in good faith. But Palestinians dogmatically cling to the impossible belief that if they only launch ONE more (strategically ineffective) attack, the Israelis will all of a sudden give in, pack up and leave. It's the classic definition of insanity----expecting the same action will give a different result. Abdulksaida is an example of the majority of Palestinians who are so vested in a forced solution, they cannot see their way to a negotiated one. Spending Lives to Win Victory
IM; Groups like Hamas do not care about the human cost to achieve their aims. Lenin, Mao, Ho, Hitler, Stalin were more than willling to pay the price in blood. Add Hamas to the list.
what to negotiate?
of course no body like kris wants to watch TV and see the crimes of the world against palestinains which i mean israel and US, why to watch as you dont suffer and you dont have relatives their and you are not execled from your country, it is ok, dont watch , but dont blame victoms and whom have rights to return to their country to at least raise their voices and say to the world it is eneough of the israeli occupation. hamas or fath or all palestinians didnt steal land from israle, they came and invade us and let the whole world with them esp amirica for benefits in ME and for its sources and to control muslm people and that is the fact, or why they choose palestine in specific. the incorrect launched by israel has to be corrected from them and they have to give us our land and then negotiate. only if iron mike someone stole his ferrari car , what he wil do ? he will keep silent and let the theif to go and negotiate with him peacfully , really strange logic ilogic resemblance
TT you dont know how to make similarities, be aware that hitler and others occupy and invade other countries not for them like israel now and hamas and others defend their country and their stolen one, so hamas and other palestininas are in their country and want it back different from others whom launch wars against neighbors and they have already countries so the resemblance go to other side mr TT but what to say you are bias and know nothing about the conflict and who has the right and just to live , really amazing, i thought before western people are more thinkable and reasonable, but it seems not all to be also just , so many also dont think logically and bias. so now i learn some lessons .
Borrowed Ferraris are not owned Ferraris
...only if iron mike someone stole his ferrari car , what he wil do ? he will keep silent and let the theif to go and negotiate with him peacfully , really strange logic
Interesting question. But let's make it more accurate. Let's say my family has never owned property. We come across a garage that is unoccupied with a Ferrari parked inside. My father drives the car for many years and in his will, he passes it on to me. Then the owners of the garage show up and demand their Ferrari back. Naturally I refuse, after all its my Ferrari now under the international law of "finders keepers." I am a victim so I'm entitled to launch rockets at the owners and whine when their aim is better than mine and they blow up my wife. I am a victim! The owners offer to negotiate and share the garage. Never! I am a victim! My father gave me that garage and Ferrari and no owner is going to take it away from me! I am a victim! Gimme some more rockets! Oops, the owners fired back but missed me and blew up my kids. I am a victim! I'll never give up that Ferrari. Pass me another rocket my Hamas brother because I am a victim! Sounds like a plot right out of Palestinian children's show.
Palestinians blind to the truth.
What Palestinians seem unable to grasp is that it no longer matters who wins the argument about who owns the land. Who has a rightful claim on the land in the past, is not as important is who will be left alive in the future. Israel and Palestine need to share the land or eliminate one or the other. There are no other alternatives. Despite their weak strategic position, Palestinians prefer extinction to negotiation. How short-sighted and sad for their children. The Illogical Logic of Palestinians
Abdulksaida; Anyone can see the obvious. Hamas wants to conquer Isreal and kill Jews. It is Hitler all over again. They will not stop at Gaza and the West Bank. At what price? Any price. The men who run Hamas have been firing rockets into Israeli settlements for a long time and refuse to stop. They do so surrounded by their own civilian population. What proof is there? They have been filmed firing from school yards and mosques. They have been filmed storing rockets in the garages of their own homes and firing from their own front yards. They have been filmed using Red Cross ambulances to transport weapons. They care nothing if innocent Palestinians are killed in response. At least a lot of them pay the price for terror. In order to continue these useless attacks Hamas is spitting on every woman and child they put in danger. How can you condone it unless you too hate Jews enough to kill them at the risk of killing your own? Please don't drone on about it being Israel's fault. A compromise is achievable. No one makes these scum do these things. They want to do it to achieve their insane goals. they don't care how many have to die in the process. Sounds like Hitler, Lenin, Mao and Ho to me. What saddens me is these same men have control over the minds of the children of Gaza. They are raising generation after generation of jew-haters who will continue to make war until someone stops the process of making storm troopers out of children.
IM, Pathetic and ungentlemanly
"At least Israel has demonstrated the willingness to negotiate in good faith." No, they have not. Ever. This is an inconvenient fact you seem more than willing to overlook. I don't know why. Even now, Israel, a state, looks to scuttle negotiations with the Abbas 'regime', such as it is, by blaming non-state actors, terrorists by your own definition, over whom 'Palestinians' as an identifiable group, have NO control . If they are terrorists, then marginalize them, why make them the focal point of the conflict? Why legitimize them? I don't expect you to understand this, as you have demonstrated your partisan and limited understanding of the conflict above quite clearly, but you should refrain from politicizing that which is really a case of basic fairness. Without fairness, Israel is the one who sows the seeds of its own destruction. Matan Vilnai (minister of defense) said Palestinians risked a "shoah", the Hebrew word for a big disaster - and for the Nazi Holocaust. Rocket ranges will increase. Rockets and missiles will surround Israel, rockets will become accurate within a few meters. It is only a matter of time. At that time, conventional warfare will be undone. This is why we see the spasms of violence perpetrated upon civilians as acts of collective punishment and terror. It won't work, it's already too late.
It is, however, ironic. Israel was created as a safe haven for the Jewish people, but in the long run, if I was a jew and had a family, I would select anywhere else on the planet other than Israel to be my home if being 'safe' was my concern. I wish the Israelis would all come an live here quite frankly, then they would be safe. You seem to have no historic perspective or education on the subject of these negotiations so it concerns me that you make genocidal remarks like "Despite their weak strategic position, Palestinians prefer extinction to negotiation. How short-sighted and sad for their children." Careful. You just rounded the corner on spite and your running hard toward hate.
No hate, just being pragmatic
You seem to have no historic perspective or education on the subject of these negotiations so it concerns me that you make genocidal remarks like "Despite their weak strategic position, Palestinians prefer extinction to negotiation. How short-sighted and sad for their children."
The opportunities for a negotiated settlement have been numerous and the Palestinians have rejected them all. Israel withdraws from Gaza only to result in Palestinian taking advantage of better firing positions for their rockets WHILE conducting peace negotiations. Rocket ranges will increase. Rockets and missiles will surround Israel, rockets will become accurate within a few meters. It is only a matter of time. At that time, conventional warfare will be undone.
And Israel's response will be to do what? 1. Surrender...pack up and move? Not hardly. 2. Negotiate with an enemy government that is unwilling to enforce a cease fire during negotiations? Nope...pointless. 3. Escalate and attack? Yes...I'm afraid it will spark an offensive that will drive Palestinians to their knees or to their graves. I have great sympathy for innocent Palestinians despite their choice of ideological leadership commited to never negotiate with Israel. I have no wish for genocidal extinction of anyone, but the choices made by the Palestinian people as led by a Hamas government have culminated in THEIR de facto preference to extinction rather than negotiation. That's not spite or hate or a genocidal comment to recognize the obvious and sad conclusion based on Palestinian choices, not mine.
Quote:The opportunities for
The opportunities for a negotiated settlement have been numerous
Really? Name one offer that was made that settles the rather long and complicated list of negotiable items? Did Isael agree to stop stealing territory on the west bank? Give over east jerusalem? I must have missed that. Please elucidate. A "take-it-or -leave-it" offer that is merely an exercise in PR not diplomacy. The rest of your spittle flecked post is just crazy ;) I would ask why you think the psychology of gazans has become so intractable and even suicidal. I have my own ideas about that, but yours would probably be more illuminating. the ilogical of israel and they followers
TT really it is strange as the reverse is correct , and the logic person will say israel is acting as hetler and did you forget before days only Olmert said that the palestinians would wait for real hallucust, so who is hetler hamas or israel? beside it is our land which we were their before jews and only becasue of power and authority of US , we cant find jews stealing our land and imigrate from all over the world and we are the real inhabitant , cant settle their as iam and millions of palestinians are refugee and see other strangers stealing day by day our land and even you want us not to defend our rights and take back our land from theifs. why israel will do compromise and at the same time America is encouraging her to have more settleents and to make veto for her in UN, are you thinking normally. We dont have anything to negotiate for and the whole world knows that and because of that they daily take land from us, and if the palestinians try to have sophisticated weapons from another country , US will not permit as it will give only of course to israel to torture palestinians. it is the a juncle and only the strong will survive with no morals, and do u know why most palestinians choose hamas, as they test all groups and the whole world and realize that when the land was taken by force from them, so only by force it will return back, and of course they will say , we are not the one who went to europ to kill jews their , they came to us and envade us and kill our people. dont worry and dont be sad , as those children by them selves raised to see how ugly is the occupation and no body educate them to hate jewish, it is already seen when their homes are demolished, when those kids are forbidden to go to school, when they saw their parents or mothers deliver at street and israel forbin any ambulance to take her, when his brother will die from injury and cant find a hospital to go as all roads are cut, when they dont find book to read, or paper to draw with, when the israeli soldiers beats those kids and enforce them not to go to school, and many humulation, do u think they need any one to teach them hatret.
Spittle flecked response for brendan
Spittle flecked post??? Sorry...I'm really not THAT invested in an OD post! ;-) You want examples of Israel negotiating in good faith with the Palestinians? Here's a few... 1. The Oslo Accords for which Nobel prizes were awarded to Arafat, Rabin, and Peres. How did that work out? The Oslo agreement promised "to live in peaceful coexistence, mutual dignity and security". Arafat pledged to "turn the lives of the infidels into hell". Oslo assured that "except for the Palestinian Police and the Israeli military forces, no other armed forces shall be established in the West Bank and Gaza strip". Arafat not only did nothing to dismantle Hamas, Islamic Jihad and an alphabet soup of assorted terrorist organizations, but he established a new one - Tanzim or Al Aksa Brigades which proudly claims responsibility for murdering innocent civilians. Oslo promised to ensure that "respective educational systems contribute to the peace between Israeli and Palestinian peoples". Palestinian Authority, with the help of generous donations from the European Union, has indeed revamped its education system. The new textbooks read - "treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews, and therefore one should beware of them." http://www.ipi-usa.org/history.htm#balfour
The Palestinians refused to abide by the agreements. in fact, Arafat was duplicitous from the start. Arafat was not bashful in revealing his true intentions. In a speech at a mosque in Johannesburg in May 1994, Arafat declared, in English, "I don't consider the agreement any more than the agreement which was signed by our prophet Mohammed at Quraish".
Arafat was referring to the famous ten year peace pact that Muslims signed with the Quraish tribe at Hudaibyia. The tribe was crushed two years later when Muslim force gained enough strength. 2. The Camp David Agreement when president Clinton brought peace to the middle east....sort of. In 1999, the Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, with the decisiveness of a former Army General, hit the 'fast forward to peace button'. The world was at the brink of peace. Clinton was eager to leave behind the legacy of solving the unsolvable. Israel made an unprecedented offer of territorial concessions, on status of Jerusalem and refugees. Arafat said NO.
In December, Clinton administration brokered another offer - 97% of territories; East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestinian State; $30B international fund to cover repatriation and resettlement of refugees; international presence in Jordan Valley to ensure security. The answer was again NO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit So why do I think the psychology of "Gazans" has become so intractable and even suicidal? Good question. I think that like Abdulksaida, many are so personally invested in the struggle that negotiation might be seen as a betrayal to those who already gave their lives to the struggle. It repudiates 60 years of uncompromising faith in the righteousness of their cause. All Arabs I've met are fiercely proud and the mixture of nationalism, religion, and tribal identity is a harder bond to break than epoxy. That may be simplistic, but given their unwillingness to negotiate, it seems the most reasonable. Your thoughts? all agreements, israel broke them
iron mike israel dont want to negotiate,and always dont want to talk about jerusalem and refugees, and always delay everything,and when palestinians want peace and to negotiate, israel as usual breaks it by launching war against innocent people and try to kill people from hamas and fath and always claim that they are terrorists, so they ascelate the situation and as a normal reaction palestininas have to respond as other humanbeings and then israel cry to the world that they are innocent and the palestinians are the criminals, realy it is so shame and the most shame , that others sometimes beleive, but eventhough the truth eventually would come one day and the whole world would know the real history and that we are the palestiniasn who own the land and we were so much tolerant than others and let jewish live peacfully between us without knowing that one day they will be our killers. Offendin' Brendan Hates Mendin'
OB; Iron Mike already replied to your biased look at Israeli peace moves very well. He forgot to mention the peace negotiated between Israel and Egypt almost 30 years ago with the help of the US. Israel also unilaterally evacuated Gaza, in 2005. They got thousands of rockets from the Palestinians as a thank you. Israel is still ready to negotiate peace with her neighbors including the Palestinians. Annapolis is proof of that. It is not her fault that the Palestinians themselves do not speak with one voice. The voices of war seem to prevail among them.
More non-spittle flecked responses...
Regretfully, Abdulksaida's latest proves my point. She offers no argument, no examples, only more of the same rhetoric. I'm disappointed that she even ignored my Ferrari Garage example when it was she who offered the example in the first place. Tt: I offered two examples, but you are certainly correct. There have been MANY attempts to negotiate peace that seem to be more Palestinian public relations than true negotiation. Not that you need them Tt, but Abdulksaida might benefit from a couple of links below that even my friends in the Great White North must acknowledge are pretty unbiased. They capture the history of peace negotiations in a nutshell.
Ahem.
At the risk of boring everyone, including myself, I repeat the question to my honourable Americans friends: Name one offer that was made that settles the rather long and complicated list of negotiable items? Did Isael agree to stop stealing territory on the west bank? Give over east jerusalem? I must have missed that. Please elucidate. Offendin Brendin Still Wendin
Poor OB You only read what you want to read. Elucidate about E. Jerusalem and the West Bank? Okay. Just don't drift. Following UN mandated independance, Israel fought many wars against Arab states who wanted to wipe her out. Israel prevailed everytime. Prior to l967, Israel returned captured territory hoping that the Arabs would not attack again. That did not work. After the l967 war, Israel determined to hold captured territory until the Arab states negotiated peace. That is the crux of today's delimna. Has peace resulted? Yes and no. Egypt and Israel negotiated peace almost 30 years ago. As a result, Israeli settlements in Sinai were forcedly closed and the land returned to Egypt. The remaining Arab combatants still demand the return of captured territory as a pre-condition to peace. Israel does not trust their goodwill. Who can blame them? Has anyone tried to advance peace since Egypt and Israel concluded a peace? Yes. IM already listed them. Israel unilaterally closed all settlements and left Gaza over two years ago. What happened? Hamas wiped out Fatah and started rocket barrages on Israeli settlements. You say that the Israelis are aggressors in this instance? That they should trust the Palestinians? Only a fool would trust a man who says he is going to kill you and is shooting at you. All countries, not just Israel, have the right to defend themselves against unprovoked attack. How long would any Israeli government stand if it did not respond to Hamas' rocket attacks? If you hold Israel's right to respond against them--tough. They can do without your brand of good intentions. Based on your vitriol, I get the impression that if Israel did return all captured lands prior to a negotiated peace, you would lead the call for Israel proper to be wiped out.
Quote:Based on your vitriol,
Based on your vitriol, I get the impression that if Israel did return all captured lands prior to a negotiated peace, you would lead the call for Israel proper to be wiped out.
Vitriol? I asked for enlightenment from you fine gentlemen. Instead I receive Israeli talking points as received from the FOX network. Has Israel ever in it's 60 year history offered to even discuss the right of return? Compensation in lieu of return? A shared capital city in Jerusalem? A disbanding of west bank settlements? Shared water resource management even? I could go on. So could anyone who has actually payed some attention. No, they unilaterally withdraw from Gaza to consolidate and isolate those who they had occupied. What's the difference? A complete blockade vs. occupation. Build some walls around it and it looks to me just like a concentration camp. You are then surprised that they smuggle rocket parts for their 'resistance'? Did you think they would smuggle flat screen TVs? They want to bust out, and by their logic they need to create a catharsis in Israeli society itself because they can't buy tanks. Hopeless cornered animals display the same vicious responses. It's just not surprising. Israel continues to build, and plans to build, in the midst of peace talks. It's an embarrassing fraud. The Israeli's are so disingenuous that they do not even pretend that 'talks' and 'negotiations' are anything more than time for consolidation of the territory they want. to pretend that this can be compared to the deal with Egypt, which was painless, is ludicrous. The comparison is a joke. So one of you Americans is now going to point out to me where and when, exactly, as you have both asserted, Israel was willing to compromise land for peace I presume. Get to it and stop with the silly straw men. i will respond later
iron mike as many times i read quickly and response quickly, but for ferrari, i think i have to read it not fast as i do, really i intent to answer, but not today. i took the impression that it is totally incorrect, but i want to respond good.
*crickets chirping*
the head of the United Nations Relief and Works Organisation (UNRWA): "Gaza is on the threshold of becoming the first territory to be intentionally reduced to a state of abject destitution, with the knowledge, acquiescence and - some would say - encouragement of the international community."
Palestinian crickets?
So one of you Americans is now going to point out to me where and when, exactly, as you have both asserted, Israel was willing to compromise land for peace I presume. Get to it and stop with the silly straw men.
You want us to do your homework for you? I gave you the links. Go look it up--it's all there. Check it out and THEN tell me where it's wrong. A complete summary of peace efforts since 1945. http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm http://www.mideastweb.org/peaceplans.htm The UN no longer has any credibility. The crickets you hear are the lack of arguments in defense of Palestinian aggression and the whirlwind they reap as the result of their commitment to fire rockets instead of negotiate for peace. ferrari passed on
iron mike you cant resemble the carage empty by the land we live in for centuries and built it and have a strong roots with it and passion and if you dont know how many generations live for 3000 years and not a garage empty for 10 years or lestt or more. you dont have feelings of the land and sand and roots and all of that , it is mixed with blood and all memories, it is our history, our homes, our dignity, our represinting that we are still human beings and not toys to play with and dictate what we have to do to return back our beloved land whom we suffer much till now from our loss of it. your hand is in cold water and not like palestinians. The ferrari you say , may be u want to say that it is the people or what? the carage if u want to say it is palestine, it is owned to us i dont know also u want to resembel the ferrari with the land , if your father own ferrari before why he didnt use it or drive it ? i mean why he didnt live in the land and show him self , as only when he die and remember that to give it to u. i dont know what u want to say as tell me carage : represent what? and ferrari represent what ? as for me i can explain it to my side and not yours. we are the owner of the land and all what was built in it , as we own the land wheather you mean by it garage , or ferrari. We are humanbeings and not materials, and which apply to materials cant apply to humanbeings as in all laws of nature also and have different approach. before 2 days 8 british organizations release a report that gaza now and its people suffer from a crises which not happend since 40 years of occupation. here is the link and 80% depends on onrwa for eating and lack of healthy water and seuige is full and a real humanitarian crises is their from the blockage of israel to all roads and prison all people and collective punishment to all humanbeings their and those organizations described that the environment is not suitable to live for animals and not humanbeings. it seems human rights is only for israel people and not others arabs and muslims. http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03/05/israel.gaza.crisis.ap/index.html#cnnSTCVideo What's this I hear about negotiations?
Brendan, I'm not sure if you follow the news, but even as a mushroom in this dark and damp country of Aus I manage to hear about the shooting at an Israeli school. Funny, another story even states: "Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Arye Mekel said peace talks would continue with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who denounced the shooting." Even Mahmoud Abbas condemned the attack, while Hamas danced around in glee. Of course, this is only one incident... abdulksaida
"it seems human rights is only for israel people and not others arabs and muslims." Actually, it seems like many Arab and Muslim nations manage to inflict human rights violations on their people without Israel's help. that will not exclude aggression
joe. bloggs so if also their are some humanright violations but they are not compared to israeli aggressions , yes we are not perfect and still we have to have more democracy, but to steal other land and kill their people and starve them all and punish them all and deprive them of all basic needs, that is more than violations on people, it is genocide and a big crime, or you dont agree . Bloody hell
It's not right, but then it's not genocide either. This is all an action/reaction situation, with one side always saying that they're simply reacting to what the other side has done. If the Isreali reaction to the palestinian problem is genocide, then so is the Islam reaction to the infidel problem. |
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