Iraq and Afghanistan are the main exhibits in the effects of TWIT. Non-American deaths from terrorism don't count for you, judging by your link. Presumably, the 52 Brits who died on 7/7 don't count either.

I already posted to remind momo, who seems to have forgotten, about the non-Americans who died in 911, thanks, moron. But again: Can you back up your claim that terrorism has increased in the past 10 years, yes or no? If yes, please do so. If no, then you really ought to say so, because otherwise, you're basically posting "Kick me, I'm an idiot" signs.

In the course of the 'war' on terrorism, the term TWIT (The War Increasing Terrorism) is more to the point than the simple 'The War on Terror(ism). Another case from our staunch ally, Pakistan. Pakistan saw 3,021 deaths in terrorist attacks in in 2009, up 48% on the year before, according to a new report by the Pakistan Institute for Peace Studies (PIPS), an Islamabad-based defence thinktank.  

If  you are upset about OBL being shot and how he was buried, why aren't you upset that Pakistan didn't hand him over so the US didn't have to hunt him down?

It was clearly not in the interest of Pakistan (as defined by its government and military) to hand OBL over to the US. You seem to think that they were under an obligation to so, right? Why?

There is a UN resolution demanding to bring the perpetrators of 9/11 to justice. Since justice is normally delivered where the crime was committed, the US are in a strong position, if they demand extradition of people they want to charge with this crime. They haven’t charged OBL with it, though.

If the US had wanted to try OBL for any crime, they should have captured him. They have no right to capture him in another sovereign country, but most likely that would have been forgiven, if there had been a fair trial for him. See the Eichmann case: abduction from Argentine? Yes, but so what? Argentine shouldn’t have protected mass murderers.

The US didn’t try. They shot him. Worse, they called that “justice”. No, it’s not justice, it’s murder. And the erosion of justice and lawfulness is what worries me most.

Are you both afraid that if people on this tiny forum talk about Pakistans role in whats happening in Pakistan that we'll go to war there?

Not at all. I’m not overrating the importance of this tiny forum. And the US are already at war with Pakistan, aren’t they? They are attacking Pakistan’s territory with drones and helicopters. That behaviour is normally called war.

Pakistan logically can’t risk an all-out war with the US. They have no reason to call it friendly relations either. The US aren’t too eager to risk all-out war with Pakistan either, because as you say: Pakistan is nuclear. There were some attempts in the last century to reduce WMD systems by treaties, but this is a thing of the past. Gaddafi fell into that trap and we all can see where that got him. Won’t happen again in any country.

What now? I don’t know. More than 90% of the Pakistani population feel the constant humiliations deeply. Large parts of Pakistan are constantly threatened. Mike and Henry have made abundantly clear that they are not interested in the public opinion of lesser nations, and that killed civilians don’t count, only soldiers’ lives have any value. Their views are extremist, but probably not that much for your political spectrum. The war will probably go on then.

just so we're all on the same page, I'll repost this here:

If  you are upset about OBL being shot and how he was buried, why aren't you upset that Pakistan didn't hand him over so the US didn't have to hunt him down? That question could go to eric also. Are you both afraid that if people on this tiny forum talk about Pakistans role in whats happening in Pakistan that we'll go to war there?

I thought OBL was dead years ago and that there was no way to verify it. As far as how he actually died recently, he lived like a man that was confident he was protected (thanks to the ISI) so he was killed in a mansion instead of a cave.

The fact that OBL was allowed to live in a comfortable environment doesn't change the goals of his organization and what they are responsible for. It also doesn't change the fact that Pakistan is receiving 1.5 billion from the US, is haven for Al Qaeda, nuclear, and playing both sides to the many conflicts going on over there. Candace

~

If  you are upset about OBL being shot and how he was buried, why aren't you upset that Pakistan didn't hand him over so the US didn't have to hunt him down? That question could go to eric also.

I'm not terribly upset. I assume the Pakistan military and secret service thought Bin Laden was a useful asset until they turned him over to the USA when the moment was opportune.  eric

The planets were aligned, perhaps? ha ha. You can't deny astrology. What is your sign, eric?

Do you think there's anything wrong with Pakistan hanging onto OBL?

It was clearly not in the interest of Pakistan (as defined by its government and military) to hand OBL over to the US. You seem to think that they were under an obligation to so, right? Why? momo

Pakistan is partially responsible for your complaint about how OBL met his end. If you were genuinely upset about this you wouldn't confine your criticism to the US, Pakistan was involved.

There is no way Pakistan would have given OBL up, if they would even admit he was there. Capturing him and putting him on trial would have most likely caused a frenzy of kidnappings, beheadings, and suicide attacks as a protest or demand that he be freed by his followers. They wouldn't recognize our legal system.

mike what u mean you are the next. it means you will kill me and throw me in the sea as iam against your writings and what israel and america is doing and terror the world> really that is democracy. that is a thread and for what ? let the world see how the american army cant bare any muslim to say his opinion. i told you to remove the symbol of liberty and but the symbol of satan and evil instead. you represent it by threating me . I have to report this , but unfortunatelly you are the moderator.

frankly just now i see his threat and this is an evidence of his criminality for killing me for the democracy he claimed. it is normal to kill innocent muslim people and now you are threathing me. your country killed millions of innocent muslim and by that only you rule the world and not by morals and teaching others the good manner. of course the empire of America will not last for ever as they lack morals in their ruling and hympocrate ( who rule the country). what others idea about mike's threat to me to let me food for fishes. !!!!! iam asking this questin seriously. If a muslim threatend him like this what is the answer? and reaction.

“If you were genuinely upset about this you wouldn't confine your criticism to the US”

I’ve never confined my criticism to the US, but criticism of the US is the only thing you notice.

“There is no way Pakistan would have given OBL up, if they would even admit he was there.”

They seem to think they have more urgent problems.

“They wouldn't recognize our legal system”

Completely off-topic, would you write to your congressman that the US must hand over the authors of German-language neo-nazi propaganda that reaches us via US websites? Do you think there's anything wrong with the US hanging onto these nazis?. Thank you.

“Capturing him and putting him on trial would have most likely caused a frenzy of kidnappings, beheadings, and suicide attacks as a protest or demand that he be freed by his followers.”

I doubt that there were enough supporters left for that. But the manner of his death and of his “burial”, and the word “justice” attached to it, and the dancing people in American streets is certainly a reason for mounting fury in the Muslim world…

It’s interesting that Americans are aware of discontent with their policies in the Arab world. How many of them know that there is discontent among Germans with your nukes being on our territory? What can we do to make you notice, I wonder. Any advice?

Momo and Saida,

Why, exactly, is burying UBL at sea after a respectful ceremony, with a translation into Arabic, "certainly a reason for mounting fury in the Muslim world..."?

Thousands, indeed hundreds of thousands, of people have been buried at sea in religious ceremonies over the past millenia. The US Navy has formal regulations for proper burial services, ones honed to perection by constant use with our own Sailors during the war against Japan in 1941-45.

Why is that disrespectful?

Note, I have seen news stories where people "say" it is dispectful, but no one ever explains "why".

Tim

I can see that you've dropped your complaint about OBL not having a trial and that you're scrambling for ways to try to keep the heat on the US and to keep the perception of Muslims being unreasonable alive. The question is why do you do this? 

And since when do you speak for Muslims?

Pashtun nationalist leaders in Pakistan's Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Baluchistan regions are reacting positively to the news that Al-Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden has been killed. Many social and political leaders in the region near the border with Afghanistan are hoping that it will force Pakistan’s military establishment to change its policy of "strategic depth" in the Pashtun-dominated tribal belt.

link

The expression the US used wasn’t only “respectful”, it was “Muslim”. And this is false. Muslims are only buried at sea if they died there, and land can’t be reached in reasonable time, which doesn’t apply in OBL’s case.(momo)

What is the authority for "Muslims are only buried at sea if they died there"? That is not at the beginning of this thread.

The US could easily have avoided all this fury, if they had buried OBL according to Muslim rites in an unmarked grave at an unknown place. (momo)

So it would have been ok to bury him in, say, the deserts of Arizona? I say that because apparently the Saudi government refused to take the body.

And they should definitely not have called a burial “Muslim”, which clearly is not. (momo)

Why is it clearly not? You yourself said Muslims sometimes bury their dead at sea. I doubt they always had an imam present. A ships' capatain, by custom and authority, has the power to act as a religious chaplain when no other chaplain is present.

The report states "The burial followed traditional Muslim burial customs," the official said, and bin Laden’s body was washed and placed in a white sheet. “The body was placed in a weighted bag. A military officer read prepared religious remarks, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker,” the official added. Afterward, Bin Laden’s body was placed onto a flat board, which was then elevated upward on one side and the body slid off into the sea. The deceased terrorist was buried at sea because no country would accept bin Laden’s remains, a senior defense official said.

What other explanation is there? For many Muslims there is only one explanation: it was a deliberate insult to them. If you can imagine another explanation, do tell.

How about a respectful burial?

Seriously, if we said he was buried in an unmarked grave somewhere, that would be ok? Would the press leave the story alone? Would you?

Tim i will answer u later inchallah, may be today, when i find little time . now i have to go to work.

i will answer now quickly i told the world as a muslim, it is delibretarely insult to us. Even the ordinary muslim who dont practise our relegion , but in name is muslim is angry and knows that it is insult. even kids asked and they know ( muslim kids) we taught to how the dead is treated and how he wached and prayer to him. It is specific prayer which last only for few minutes. in it we pray to the dead even with mercy from Allah and God forgive all sins and many things. God told us that from the land he created the human bieng and from it he will return us to it and the day of judjment we will arise from the land. burriying him in sea, means that the battle was in the sea. I swear when that occured , i told my brother whom dont like even to hear any news and lived so many years in USA, and told him that USA throw OBL in the sea, then directly asked me , did they find him there ? or the captured was there? any normal person will know that USA have hidden agenda and really they want to humulate muslims. beside he has a family of wives, children and many , and the body has to given to them . yes as momo said they will not even may be put a mark on the grave not like shea muslims. dont forget that Taliban demolish even Butha statue. They dont beleive in that and against the relegion. so what America did is a crime against humanity ( i think they consider muslims as not humanbeing created by God (Allah almighty). USA killed a person who is not armed without court. They spy of pakistan and steal and killed a person there. Pakistan or afganistan can take his body and burry him later i will tell that now in muslim countries , there is a photo which is not the same which was fabricated. it is OBL who is smiliying and OBAma said throw as not to see his smile and sorry iam late now , i will continue later.

Hi Timo,

That seems odd, Momo. There is a Navy medical report saying cause of death was two gun shots to the body and head. I'm not sure an autopsy would tell anything more. Do you?

What do US authorities do when the box “unnatural death” is ticked off and a doctor finds that someone has died of gun shots? They order an autopsy, don’t they? From the distance and angle the shots were fired from one can then draw conclusions. Statements of White House and military that change every day don’t convince anyone. Due process, Tim.

I already told you they followed Muslim religious customs

I am saying that telling and repeated this obvious falsehood increases the anger among Muslims.

As an aside, you still provided no authority on why burial at sea is such a Muslim no-no

Because it is a matter of rites.

Ah, I see. Some would say a pre-determined trial and execution is akin to murder too -- at least a shot to the head is honest and without hypocrisy

Yes, you are right, I would say that. Is this all the US can, Tim? A pre-determined trial and execution or downright murder without that? Has the US judiciary become unable to give an accused a fair trial? And if so, would you agree that it is a sad state of things or do you find it just fine?