Aside from the fact that I can't stand most of you, I think that we would all like to make each other happy here.
So.. in the interest of oD forum discussion evolving into an activity that promotes new heights of understanding and awareness, I thought I would ask the question: How do you want the US and Israel to respond to terrorism?
What would get your political stamp of approval?
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I want the US (+satellites) to have peaceful relations to the rest of the world, which includes fair trading terms. They must stop to support Israel’s expansionism, and Israel must make peace with Palestinians. In a just world where everyone has a chance to live in peace and without extreme poverty there won’t be terrorist movements.
Unfortunately the current policy is the exact opposite of this, and it’s extremely unlikely that it will be stopped. So terrorism will probably go on, and it will be the pretence for more wars for oil and raw materials, which will of course produce more terrorism.
Excellent, that sums it up quite well!!! Thanks.
The question is interesting in itself. First there is terrorism and then a response to it! Do you really believe it's that way around? Terrorists are just violent bad people who, for no apparent reason, decide to attack peaceful good people. if you want to get anywhere with this, I wouldn't start from here if I were you.
Big C,
I hate to disagree but I don't find the question interesting at all, in fact, I'd give it a big yawn. Who cares? Really, I'm so tired of the 'poor us' attitude the Americans display here regularly.
They've made their own mess, let them stew in it.
I meant that the very fact that the question is asked and the way in which it is framed is interesting Chris. You're quite right about the victimhood syndrome.
We are not talking about me. I am asking what people here would consider to be politically pleasing solutions to the very real threat of terrorist attacks against Americans and Israelis - in a warm and friendly environment.
It's good to remember that most people in the Middle East are not terrorists, and that they're perfectly capable of expressing their grievances without blowing themselves up or using any violence at all.
Well the answer for dealing with terrorism, if that's where you're insisting on starting, is simple. It is a policing and intelligence issue. It is not a military, regime changing issue. Nor is it a wedding bombing or kidnapping and torturing issue. Those things are guaranteed to increase terrorism.
But you have obviously not paid any attention to Momo's or my first answers because your reply embeds your position even more firmly into a simplistic single dimensional view. Why the US and Israel? Apart for 9/11 the US has very little experience of terrorism. And all of the terrorism suffered by israel is the result of their refusal to negotiate honestly and realistically (ie with the expectation of making real concessions) with the Palestinians.
I'm reminded of the way in which the British always considered that they had an Irish problem which justified the use of brutal force without considering for one minute that it may be the Irish that had a British problem which they also considered to be justification for violence.
"But you have obviously not paid any attention to Momo's or my first answers because your reply embeds your position even more firmly into a simplistic single dimensional view."
It does nothing of the kind.
I don't expect to agree with anything you or Momo says and I have no intention of arguing about it.
I am curious what course of action anyone here would approve of in dealing with terrorism if any at all. It's just an inquiry.
"I don't expect to agree with anything you or Momo says and I have no intention of arguing about it."
Well that pretty much sews up that thread then.
Okay, and now you’ve had answers to your inquiry, and you know that the US will never start to fight terrorism.
When will we hear the next bout of that whining Chris has so rightly complained of, I wonder.
Israel is criminal state in that it has settled hundreds of thousands of its population (about 500,000) on Occupied Palestinian Territory. As a first step, it should evacuate its citizens (or request that they be considered for Palestinian citizenship). The second step is to address the question of the Palestinian refugees who are the descendants of Arab Palestinians driven from their homes to make way for the Jewish State. Thirdly, Israeli state terrorism against the Palestinians should cease. The question of illegal violence by Palestinians against Israelis is relatively insignificant.
Ah, k. thanks for the reply eric.
What does that mean, Candace?
What do you think it means? Lotta the same old hyperbole from you with nothing new or relevant. No surprises and no revelations. It's all Israel's fault following the UN mandate to form a country when there was never a Palestinian state. Palestinian terrorism is insignificant, yadda, yadda, yadda...
Other than that, press on!
It's good to see you Mike. I thought of you when I heard that Sarah Palin was on Fox news. I remember suggesting that in 2008 in one of our oD greatest hits election discussions.
Eric,
It means that without commenting on your opinion, I've always enjoyed your posting style. I'm glad you showed up. If I ever get into a mood to argue about any of this, I'll choose you pikachu.
Sarah! Sarah! Sarah!
Okay...yeah I know you hate her. But I just find her honesty so refreshing and unequivocal. She is the "un-politician" even if that makes her un-electable. If anything, it makes for great political theater.
Un-politician? You have to be joking! She is the most mob savvy demagogue since a certain corporal took the leadership of a very similar constituency to the tea baggers in Germany. He was un-electable too. Not getting elected doesn't always stop these people.
Her honesty? Why do you find her honest?
I don't hate her, I was upset that she was chosen for that job. I also thought they were going to win.
I’d say that most of the policing and surveillance we are subjected to (ostensibly to fight terrorism) has other motives, BigC.
Anti-terror laws are used against legitimate political protest everywhere, but I have never heard of a case where they were useful to catch terrorists. That’s the reason why people are made to believe that the risk of being killed by a terrorist is higher than the risk to be killed in a car accident: otherwise nobody would accept these laws. As it is citizens are eager to give up their rights. It’s about time to look where the real risks for our freedom are. These warriors-against-terror need a thorough bashing.
Well I suppose I could have specified policing and intelligence which doesn't have an ulterior purpose but I thought that was implicit in what I said.
But I quite agree. Cheney's security measures included putting Greens and trade unionists on no-fly lists and kidnapping an innocent Canadian and despatching him to Syria to be tortured.
What I meant was such things as ceasing to allow people known to have attended terrorist training camps to board aeroplanes with explosives strapped to their legs.
Seems to me that suggestion is better suited for action taken by security in Amsterdam, not US response which was the question Candace posed. I really want to see her question really answered. The fact that all of you seem to dance around it is quite revealing. Please carry on!
ID checks are done by the airline Mike.
No-one has danced around Candace's question which itself dances around the issue. It has been answered by Eric, Momo and myself as far as the very narrow parameters of the question allow.
What would be interesting would be a defence of what actually has been done. How has the creation of an al Qaeda organisation in Iraq, the installation of a corrupt and ineffective central government, supported by brutal provincial war-lords in Afghanistan or the (further) de-stabilisation of Pakistan helped to prevent terrorism?
No chance, bigC. It’s too much to find hints for terrorism in this tangle of data. But the US are safe from travelling trade unionists which seems to be more important for them, otherwise they would want to keep their database not to unwieldy.
Instead of reasonable policing and intelligence we’ll get scanners for everything (except the things terrorists can use as weapons) and underpaid staff who operate them. No matter, it’s meant to calm the public (and it’s good business too).
Mike,
Candace’s question has been answered—and nobody has raised an argument against bigC’s, Eric’s and my answers. Hardly surprising: I’ve known that there is no reasonable counter-argument.
I agree that security in Amsterdam should have paid more attention to the would-be bomber’s underpants, but I bet they checked carefully whether he had a US visa or was on a no-fly list. US authorities were too busy with putting the names of completely peaceful trade unionists on these lists to spare a thought on terrorists. Are you sure you want to blame only Schiphol’s security?
Maybe we could all fly naked, to prevent anyone smuggling anything in their underpants? Of course, this does still leave the problem of body cavities...
My goodness! This brings back a memory of a flight back from Dallas where a couple in front of me needed a third seat between them with the armrests removed - and were spilling over the edges even then! Naked, they would have looked like two blancmanges wrestling. I think I'd rather be blown up....
This reminds me of a huge indignant female who said these seats (on a bus) are only for one when I tried to sit down beside her. All around me were two people of moderate girth sharing seats.
Fat pride is aggressive and unjustifiable.
Had they paid extra or was the middle seat free, I wonder?
How about this solution to make flying safer?
(alternatively a narcotic)
Oh my dear easily offended ones, bless you for your consistency.
Cavities, Thomas? That means we would have to replace our scanning equipment with a toothbrush and a drill. If we did such a thing, I think we know which group of people here would start to feel like they were being given an unfair amount of attention.
Btw, I started a thread like this one on another site and its at 149 replies now. I was hoping there would be more activity here. Ah but I guess those days are long gone.
Didn't opendemocracy used to send emails to you when you got a reply on a thread you were watching. They also said who replied. That would be great if oD could do that again Thomas.
Until then this is for those of you who came here looking for a fight and feel like your needs aren't being met.
Candace,
You have already made clear that you didn’t want to discuss the topic. Why are you repeating yourself?
Thomas Ash,
It was a seat for two people being hogged by a big fat-pride female. No apologies. She just spead herself out.
Having a bad day, oh humorless one? I did hear you the first time. Who knows what your problem is.
I think and believe that all three religions islam,christianity and judaism do not call for violance and killing innocents.Religious texts should be interpreted and explained by specialists in the field.Indeed, no one is eligible to issue a decision only scholars of the three religion.These scholars have the ability to extract the rulings.
A layperson should follow the scholar who is more knowledgeable and more pious, for such one is more likely to be closer to the truth.If some one falls ill, he should go to the skills doctos not to a carpenter or a lawyer.
when Imam Ash-Shafis mentioned the credentials of a proper Islamic scholar, “My brother, you cannot be a scholar unless you fulfill six conditions: intelligence, passion (for knowledge), perseverance, sustenance (to be single-mindedly devoted to study), guidance of a teacher, and many years (of dedicated study)."
Any scholar should master the language he or she speaks.for example to understand the quranic texts and sunnah, a scholar should master Arabic.Inadition to that he should hold degrees that are considered as attestations of this fact, provided they have been granted by accredited universities or institutions of higher learning.
As far as terrorism is concerned, there is no reliable scholar who supports killing innocent people or civilians.they all agree that terrorism is against the teaching of islam.For example,
The sheikh OF al Azhar institution said that Islam considers anyone who kills an innocent person as killing the whole of humanity.
He says that in the name of Islamic law he rejected and condemned the aggression against innocent civilian people, regardless of whatever side, sect or country the aggression came from.
a number of al-Azhar scholars stressed that Islam rejected violence and bloodshed, expressing regret over the tragic explosions and plane crashes that took place Tuesday
The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. Those who are trying to describe Islam as a religion of extremism and violence are wrong," he asserted.
Muslim and Arab leaders, among others around the world are against terrorism with all its forms.pls look at the CONVENTION OF THE ORGANISATION OF THE ISLAMIC CONFERENCE
ON COMBATING INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM
http://www.oic-oci.org/english/convenion/terrorism_convention.htm
Ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "People will remain good as long as they get knowledge from their great scholars but once they get knowledge from the ignorant and unreliable they will be damaged." (Reported by Abu Na`eem in al-Hilyah)
Dear friends, brothers and sisters
The religion of Islam should not be confused with what these terrorists have done.Killing innocents and civilians , terrorizing them or destroying their properties have not to do with the islam teaching.I am dead sure that one of you will reject my statement.but this is the truth.Whoever kills an innocent, should be punished and this should not be linked with islam.God says in Quran.
[Quran 5:32] “...we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .
We should not let our emotions overcome our logic and understanding.Those khawarij or deviant so called islamic groups represent themselves and not muslims.AL Qaeda does not only revolt against the elegal rulers but they give bad image of islam.Indeed,Every righteous person in any religion would condemn such actions regardless of terrorist’s race, country or religious background.
Pledging allegiance should only be the legal rulers chosen by scholars, decision makers, people of virtue and common folk.Even muslims in the west should elect a ruler even he is non muslim .The latter ensures their rights and security.Moreover, they should benefit society that they live in.
Therefore,it is imperative for muslims to obey their leaders in order not to cause mischief at the cost of the unity and common interests of the Muslim community and welfare.
Ibn `Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "If a person notices in his ruler what he dislikes, he should show patience because he who departs from the (Muslim) community a cubit, dies like those who died in the Days of Ignorance.''
Abu Bakrah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: I heard Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying, "He who insults the rulers Allah will insult him.''
[At-Tirmidhi].
Al-Qaradawi says: "One of the foundations of Islamic governance is the Bay'ah [pledge of allegiance]. Leading members of the society elect the ruler and pledge allegiance to him after which all the people should pledge allegiance to him.
If the legitimacy becomes stable, begins to run people's affairs, and the people accept its leadership, then you should recognize it."
therefore, i am against all groups or those who use violance or those who say if you do not follow them, you leave islam.
takfir is a serious issue in Islam, the ulama (Muslim scholars) always warn of the danger and the gravity of doing it, and are always careful on this subject.
Narrated Abu Dhar:
That he heard the Prophet saying, "If somebody accuses another of Fusuq (by calling him 'Fasiq' i.e. a wicked person) or accuses him of Kufr, such an accusation will revert to him (i.e. the accuser) if his companion (the accused) is innocent." ( Sahih Bukhari)
Candace and BIG C
Iam asking about the posiblity to edit or delete some information.Would u mind telling me how to do.
On the left near bottom side of the Forum page you'll find the user log in, underneath that is the link create a new account. You need to register there. Then you can log in and be able to edit your posts.
Dear moderator
i previously asked you to edit to me some information but u said do it for u self.
Iam asking about the posiblity to edit or delete some information.Would u mind telling me how to do
thanks
Just click on the blue “Edit” under your post and you can shorten it as much as you want.
i have only reply and report to moderator.i do not have blue edit
thanks sister
Ah! Probably you are not logged in then. Well, then you must rely on BigC's or Mike's help. If you log in now, it will only help with new posts.
i can not do it since i have only reply or report to moderator
thanks Momo
Momo thanks
but i do not have the blue edit under my post .All i have is reply or report to moderator
BIG C, mike
Pls i would to delete a link and a small lines and replace them with an other.can u do it for me.
thanks
MIKE AND BIG C
iam asking about the posiblity to edit or delete a link and a small paragaphs Would u mind doing it for me and replace them with an other.
BigC or Mike
I m asking about the posiblity to edit or delete .Would u mind doing it for me
Yes certainly. What would you like changed?
A+A+A++
I noticed that you do not have a profile, so you must not be registered. Until you register, you will not have edit access. That's a priviledge of being a registered account. Please register and become empowered. You really cannot expect BC or me to do all your editing for you and every other unregistered poster here. That's just not practical. We have day jobs as well as this volunteer work.
These two countries are causing terrorism. Islamic countries just can't be influenced by the West, otherwise the clash of ideologies appears within the society.
I think the more America and Israel respond on terrorism - the worse it becomes. In Emirates they will start nuclear weapon production. Then the same proccess will start all over the world despite the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. And at the end it will be America to build those plants in Emirates and Yemen, so that Lebanon, Iran and others are captured from inside the region.
Who creates terrorism? It is just a word, political games always need targets and suppliers. Otherwise, how the hell they will make money on the deaths of simple people?
thanks Big C
Pls would u mind changing the link about who were the khwarij
16 December 2009 - 9:34pm and replace it with
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49414
and also
the one 17 December 2009 - 2:06pm
pls delete the link and let below only
i do not agree with the so called islamic groups
thanks Big C
I do not agree with them .when i chose the article about al khwarij i did not pay attention nor read the introduction .But this makes me proud that i am with the group that supports the elected and legal ruler chosen by the community who fights extremism and calls for freedom of belief and peaceful dialogue and good relationshup with the West and nonmuslims
Dear brothers and sisters non muslims
i do not hate u wheter you are a jew, christain or what ever belief you hold.
you have your religion and i have my own . A non muslim can be my uncle, aunt, grandmother or father, my cousin, my nephew.If my nonmuslim grandfather celebrate the new year, i should congratulate him.if he came to visit me and brought gift with me i should kiss him and accept it from him.if he is ill, i should visit him.if my nonmuslim neighbour needs my help, i will do so.How many muslims live in the west whose employers are non muslims treat hium with respect and kindness and how many muslim families treat with kindness non muslim when they visit them in their countries.
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