Iraq: war or not?

THE IRAQ WAR IS OVER! GW Bush insists that he will not pull out until victory; but is pulling out regardless, then calling it victory! The first installment will be to buy himself a continued Republican dominated Congress; without that he can't pay back his 2004 campaign contributors with domestic legislation before he leaves office. Then will come more in preparation for his 2008 farewell, for, no matter what he sais, how he will look in history is important to him also. So we may well be out of Iraq before he's out of the White House. Should we therefore just forget about it as we did with Vietnam?

Hi, I`d like to hear peoples opinions on whether Iraq, is still an on going war? Obviously, the initial conflict in Feb-Mar 2003, to get rid of Saddam and his weapons (allegedly)was classed as a war, but what about now. The fighting still appears to be on going, and I`m sure theres stuff happening out there that never makes the news. Would it be safe to say that Iraq is now more like another Northern Ireland, than a Vietnam? I`d very much like to hear your thoughts. BJOW.

It was heartening to read so many excellent writers taking a stand and expressing their principled and logical opposition to this war for mainly moral but also clear sighted reasons regarding the long term outcome of it. It was equally depressing, although not surprising, to read the defense of it by Aaron Breitbach from the Wiesenthal Centre and Ralph Giordiano from the Jewish community in Germany. The latter makes clear why numerous Jews hasten to defend the war: the parallels with Israel are too close for comfort; moreover, Israel has helped, and is still helping the USA in this endeavour. Quite apart from training USA special forces/secret services in methods of torture to obtain information, in America, many are also engaged on the ground in Iraq in various capacities. It makes me ashamed to be a former Israeli citizen and I'm grateful to Eyal Weitzman for his very different view and for his courage to express it freely if he still lives in Israel.

I think this topic: Iraq: war or not? can be summed up in my response in a few words. Yes, Saddam is a bastard. But is he the only bastard in the world? I don't think so.

So short of what needs to be said are the simple words "Thank you". .................................................................. "God bless you" seems to me to make up for the short fall but maybe you don't think so. In words and thought it is the best I have to offer; I can only do better in deeds with your sacrifice as example. ------------------------------------ I enjoy the fruits of democracy, freedom, the rule of law because of your kind of sacrafice. Thank you.

I mistakenly put back the copy of 'OIL WARS' back on the thread on which it originated.

I do not normally copy and paste other people's postings. The one below has appeared on another thread and is certainly worth bringing to the attention of those that still use this thread.It explains the war with Iraq very well. Subject - OIL WARS: Afghanistan. IRAQ. Syria. Iran. Saudi Arabia ... Author name - oilwar Date - 19-6-2003 OIL WARS: Afghanistan. IRAQ. Syria. Iran. Saudi Arabia ... http://www.thedebate.org/ As the list of oil countries attacked by America & robbed of their oil grows, we must ask: How much more oil do they want, how much of our taxes will they spend on oilwars and how many of our boys will they send to their deaths in their wars for oil?

OIL WARS: Afghanistan. IRAQ. Syria. Iran. Saudi Arabia ... http://www.thedebate.org/ As the list of oil countries attacked by America & robbed of their oil grows, we must ask: How much more oil do they want, how much of our taxes will they spend on oilwars and how many of our boys will they send to their deaths in their wars for oil? Here is how they attacked Iraq and robbed them of oil: 1) The US oilgovernment tricked people into supporting war using terror-tactics. Iraq was incapable of attacking the West. They had no links to terrorism. 2) They attacked Iraq - using taxpayers' money.

I'm trying to find the answer for when war worked and not peace/talks? Does anyone have an answer????? What exactly were you trying to make work? The gravediggers?

"If there is a European country that should have faith that invading forces are in Iraq to liberate (and not pillage and steal), it should be France." The record up to now of the US invasion? Is it for the French to see what is not there? Why should a country that has suffered an invasion and lived through wars support invasion and war? Why should there be faith in the US that they are not in Iraq for their own interests? Because they want to liberate? Why Iraq? What care did the US have for the Iraqi people 12 years ago? Why is the US not liberating Zimbabwe? The Congo? Is there something unique we don't know about? We do know that Iraq has oil. We do know that when the "coalition" military stormed into Iraq they did not secure hospitals and necessary amenities for the Iraqi people, they secured oil wells.

If there is a European country that should have faith that invading forces are in Iraq to liberate (and not pillage and steal), it should be France. If Germany and Russia take an Anti-US stance, we expect that from old enemies who might be a little friendlier over time. We can shrug them off as doing just what we might expect. If England had turned against us, that too would have been easier to take. The US never had to invade England to deliver it back to it's citizens. But France is different. And had France just announced it's Anti-war attitude, and left it at that, it might be easier to take. But there are dirty little secrets.

I'm trying to find the answer for when peace/talks worked and not war? Does anyone have an answer?????

Just to let you know I was in combat. brolly2 wrote: Subject - LDobie - and bigguyinjersey. Author name - brolly2 Date - 3-5-2003 You can bet that bigguyin ersey is another of the armchair generals.He is as far away from the baqttle front and the bombs as he can be. That is why he advances his illogical argument about war seeming to be the only way to peace. He doesn't seem to realize that it is the merely a stop on the way to the next war. I appreciate your concern.

'Peace in our time'. This is of course the famous phrase uttered by Neville Chamberlain when he returned to London after his meeting with Hitler in 1938, when he was deluded into thinking that Hitler shared his desire for peace. Well, as this thread is tailing off, I thought that I would use the phrase to bring down the curtain on our sometimes stormy spats, particularly as you have thought of me as an ardent anti-semite.You were wrong. I genuinely felt a deep animosity to the neoconeservative figures around Bush and particularly to my Jewish confreres, as of all people, the Jews should go further than anyone else to avoid causing suffering to another people, whether it is Iraqis or Palestinians.

You can bet that bigguyinjersey is another of the armchair generals.He is as far away from the battle front and the bombs as he can be. That is why he advances his illogical argument about war seeming to be the only way to peace. He doesn't seem to realize that it is the merely a stop on the way to the next war. I appreciate your concern.

You can bet that bigguyin ersey is another of the armchair generals.He is as far away from the baqttle front and the bombs as he can be. That is why he advances his illogical argument about war seeming to be the only way to peace. He doesn't seem to realize that it is the merely a stop on the way to the next war. I appreciate your concern.

The New Yorker: April 14, 2003 WAR WOUNDS by JON LEE ANDERSON “On the last day of March, I went to see Dr. Osama Saleh, an orthopaedic surgeon and the head of medical services at the Al Kindi Hospital... I said that I was interested in how the recent war casualties were being dealt with... “ One of Dr. Saleh’ s assistants, a young woman, had pulled some images up on a computer screen in his office. Dr. Saleh invited me to look at them with him. The first image the assistant showed us was of a boy lying naked in the emergency operating theatre. A catheter and tube was attached to his penis. The child’ s legs were smooth, but his entire torso was black, and his arms were horribly burned. At about the biceps, the flesh of both arms became charred, black grotesqueries. One of his hands was a twisted, melted claw. His other arm had apparently been burned off at the elbow, and two long bones were sticking out of it. It looked like something that might be found in a barbecue pit.

The New Yorker: April 14, 2003 WAR WOUNDS by JON LEE ANDERSON “On the last day of March, I went to see Dr. Osama Saleh, an orthopaedic surgeon and the head of medical services at the Al Kindi Hospital... I said that I was interested in how the recent war casualties were being dealt with... “ One of Dr. Saleh’ s assistants, a young woman, had pulled some images up on a computer screen in his office. Dr. Saleh invited me to look at them with him. The first image the assistant showed us was of a boy lying naked in the emergency operating theatre. A catheter and tube was attached to his penis. The child’ s legs were smooth, but his entire torso was black, and his arms were horribly burned. At about the biceps, the flesh of both arms became charred, black grotesqueries. One of his hands was a twisted, melted claw. His other arm had apparently been burned off at the elbow, and two long bones were sticking out of it. It looked like something that might be found in a barbecue pit.

War seems to be the only way to peace. It’s obvious that “just peace” does not work. If you just sit back and hope for the best, the best never comes.

I submitted a piece at ther "Iraq-the war and after" forum entitled "War" which I thought might spark some discussion. Apparently not. We all want, or seem to want, to make our points, but no one seems to want to discuss war. I said, "War is murder sanctioned as a social skill." We seem unable to look at any alternative to war. We are angry and want our revenge. This is our problem, our most basic human problem. We seem unable to imagine a world in which we are not called upon to kill someone. What is the reality? For me, as an American, I have the luxury of not choosing to kill anyone. Why? Because I took seriously that old adage, Thou shalt not kill.