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Holocaust mysteries!


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Although almost everybody acknowledges that millions of Jews were killed in Europe during the WWII many have questioned the accuracy/validity of the alleged 6 million victims and the alleged methods they were killed. Israel still receives billions of dollars compensation every year, so it is understandable if they do not want to discuss the issue, but do the Holocaust figures add up? Are there enough evidences to support the allegations? Why it is illegal to discuss the Holocaust almost after 60 years! Is any other historical disaster being guarded so much? Why?


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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
Kiumars, 'Holocaust denial' is only illegal in eleven countries France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Romania, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, and Israel. As the reaction to the recent imprisonment of the historian David Irving in Austria showed, a lot of people disagree with these laws. Though it might strike some as distasteful to question the Holocaust, it should definitely not be illegal to do so. In fact, the best way to deal with such stances is merely to examine their work and challenge it. If six million really died during that nightmarish time then this should prove no great difficulty - the evisceration of Irving's work during the libel trial he brought against another historian years ago is proof of that. Is any other historical disaster being guarded so much? Why? Pretty much all mass killings are met with some form of denial, from Stalin's gulags to the massacres in East Timor. None enjoy the protection of the law. However, no other was perpetrated in the middle of Europe.



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
The Holocaust conference will be hold in October of this year. http://makeashorterlink.com/?R1562585D [Edited by: oD Forum Moderator. Shorter link created.]



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
Kiumars, this is one of several posts you've made on this topic. Rather than jump to any conclusions ... what's your opinion on the Holocaust? HH



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
henry_hart_1 It is the same post! I am just following it as it unfolds! As for the Holocaust, I think it was a big mistake and a shame on the humanity and I wish I was there and could stop it but what I do not understand is why it is guarded so much and why Germen have to pay compensation for what a few of their grandfathers did 60 years ago! That does not make sense! Why is it made illegal to even question what happened? Are we covering something? Is there more that catches the eye? PS: Will Israel pay compensation for what they are doing to the Palestinians?



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
"As for the Holocaust ... I do not understand is why it is guarded so much ... Why is it made illegal to even question what happened? Are we covering something? Is there more that catches the eye?" Don't really know what you mean about it being "guarded" and what you're implying is being covered up. As to questioning the Holocaust being illegal, I think that's ridiculous. Writers (and speakers) should be allowed to say whatever they want on the topic. Of course, they must also be prepared for the consequences of what they say, if their theories prove unpopular. HH



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
Re: As for questioning the Holocaust being illegal, I think that's ridiculous. Tell me about it! You can question the existence of God but you cannot question anything about Holocaust! Isn't that strange? Many people are in jail for it! PS: unpopular and untrue are two different things, many true things are unpopular!



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
> Israel still receives billions of dollars > compensation every year, so it is understandable if > they do not want to discuss the issue, but do the > Holocaust figures add up? > Are there enough evidences to support the > allegations? > Why it is illegal to discuss the Holocaust almost > after 60 years! > Is any other historical disaster being guarded so > much? > Why? First of all have you got a link to your claim that Israel receives billions of dollars in compensation because of the Holocaust? 'Why it is illegal to discuss the Holocaust almost after 60 years! ' No it isn't ignaramous. Denying the Holocaust in discussing it are 2 completely different issues. Why are you muslims so ignorant and obsessed with the Jews?



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
sole62 Re: Denying the Holocaust and discussing it are 2 completely different issues. There is a big difference between chat and discussion. In a discussion one should be able to question the authenticity of any piece of evidence (but that is illegal in many countries when it comes to Holocaust!). You should be able to question the authenticity of a claims like "800,000 people were turned into soaps" and "Two million people were killed in gas chambers" and "6 million people were killed because of their religion". Where are the proofs? Where are the records? The soap claim and gas-chamber allegations are not supported by adequate evidences; turning almost 1 million people into soap needs very large installations and factories! Where are they? It is calculated that killing two million people in Auschwitz gas chambers would take 15 years! What I am saying is that some of the allegations are simply false and some have been extremely exaggerated. 60 millions died in WWII, 40 millions of them in Russia and East Europe, 5 millions of the alleged 6 million Jewish casualties of the war were in Russia and East Europe, doesn't that raises the question that most of them were simply the casualties of the war like the other 35 million people who died in the same area and they were not killed because for being Jews? Anyone who asks these kind of questions is labelled with Holocaust denial and many have been imprisoned! Re: have you got a link to your claim that Israel receives billions of dollars in compensation because of the Holocaust? Just search the web for "Holocaust compensation" or "Holocaust industry" and you will find many Jewish and other sites. Here are a few, the list is very long! http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/claims1.html The German parliament Thursday approved a 10 billion-mark bill to compensate former forced and slave laborers in Nazi era. http://english.people.com.cn/english/200007/07/eng20000707_44925.html http://www.survivors-holocaust.org/english.html http://nylag.org/services/holocaust-compensation-assistance-project.htm http://www.nyed.uscourts.gov/pub/rulings/cv/1996/665994.pdf http://www.claimscon.org/forms/allocations/Social%20Safety%20Nets.pdf http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-8497.00254 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/619896.stm Re: Why are you muslims so ignorant and obsessed with the Jews? Read the post again and tell me who is ignorant? You didn't even know that Jews have been receiving billions of dollars compensation and you call me ignorant?



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
It is not illegal to question the holocaust in the UK but I can see why it was made so in other countries that were directly affected by it. It is extremely offensive to people who had their families decimated, and who may have suffered personally, to have to face people who deny this happened either because they are stupid or, more likely, because they have a revisionist political agenda. In Germany and Austria there was also a fear that such misinformation could be used to lessen criticism of extreme right neo-fascist organisations who bubble just below the surface of many countries, and allow a degree of respectibility to those who wish to use race and religion as a tool to gain power. There are no definitive proofs of the exact numbers. The Nazis were meticulous in record keeping, and I think those records that survive would support the estimates that have been made. However, as you may expect, many records were destroyed by the Nazis towards the end of the war. The exact numbers will never be known. But do you think it really matters whether it was 6M, 4M or 8M? As far as throwing out doubt as to authenticity because of the numbers, this is a shameful attempt to obfusticate. If you want the facts on Auschwitz here you are: Auschwitz was a concentration camp and an extermination camp. It is estimated by German authorities that more than 100,000 Jews, 70,000 Poles, 10,000 Gypsies, and 10,000 others died of overwork, disease, experimentation, starvation and summary execution in the concentration camp alone. In the extermination camp there were various gas chamber developments. The early ones, up to 1943, were converted houses and two "bunkers" used plus one gas chamber. Later there were 4 other gas chambers and combined crematoria built with the capability to handle large numbers. No 1 Aug 40 to Jul 43 capacity 340 per day No 2 Mar 43 to Nov 44 capacity 1440 per day No 3 Jun 43 to Nov 44 capacity 1440 per day No 4 Mar 43 to Oct 44 capacity 768 per day No 5 Apr 43 to Jan 45 capacity 768 per day Without the ad hoc killings and the bunkers and smaller gas chambers this gives a capability of over 2.8M. It is actually estimated that between 1.1M and 1.5M people were murdered in this way. Of the people sent to the extermination camps the vast majority were Jewish. Rough figures are 1.1M Jews, 140,000 Poles, 20,000 gypsies, 10,000 Soviet POWs and 10,000 others. Auschwitz was only one extermination centre, if the most notorious.



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
englishman Your figures are totally wrong! Where did you get them from? Give me the source. If Only 1.1 Jews were sent to the gas chambers (I do not say I agree with what you are saying as you are not providing any documents and proofs!) what happened to the remaining 5 million?



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
1.1M jews to Auschwitz alone, as I said clearly I think. The figures are those calculated by the German authorities after the war. Which category do you fall into, Kiumars: the stupid or ones with a political agenda to revise history? Both perhaps.



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
englishman Re: Which category do you fall into, The one that wants to see the proofs! You find that unreasonable? I asked you to provide sources for your claims (i.e. URLs, etc) but you just repeated the same claims! Give me a link to an authentic web-site that you quote the figures from! I want to see their proofs!



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/html/eng/historia_KL/krematoria_komory_gazowe_ok.html http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpol9.htm http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/genocide/holocaust_overview_05.shtml http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1946hoess.html This is a signed testimony of Rudolf Hoess. http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/auschwitz.html Follow the links. There are plenty of others. You won't find "proofs" because this is not geometry. I think that the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt" is applicable though. I have met people who were there though: Poles who came to live in England after the war, probably long since dead, and had the tattooed numbers on their arms, not that this will be any more convincing. Also a friend of mine, a nationalised American who sadly died last year, was born in Auschwitz, as was his wife.



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
englishman Re: You won't find "proofs" because this is not geometry. So if there is no proof then how can they be so sure about it? Why make it a crime to investigate it? Why Holocaust documents are still classified and hidden from the public? You mentioned some of your own personal experiences, I am not denying Holocaust if you follow my posts here you will see that I accepted that some people were killed but I cannot believe the alleged casualty numbers and the methods. Numbers are are far too high to be true and the methods claimed to be used to kill people are far too impractical and expensive! Why go thru all the cost and trouble of making gas chambers and crematorium complexes, which included such refinements as electric lifts to carry bodies up to the crematoria.? Why not just simply hang them or shot them in the head and bury them? Was the a shortage of ropes or bullets or even poison? Was there a shortage of land to burry the bodies? So why go thru all the trouble and cost and build gas chambers and soap factories? I don't understand how you cannot see the smoke-screen they have build around the Holocaust!



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
How do we know history at all? There can be no proof, just evidence which we have to view as reasonable people. It seems you don't even believe Rodolph Hoesse's confession and statement which is a contemporary prime source. I think the evidence shows that the statements you made in order to show that the death rates were impossible to achieve are a complete fabrication. I appreciate that you did not invent this rubbish as it is present on far right websites and quoted by David Irving before he had his revelations and recanted. It is a common method of trying to discredit a viewpoint to associate ridiculous positions with that view and then to show it to be incorrect. I think the soap factory is one such assignment too. I do not think this was true. It takes animal fat to make soap; this was not a commodity many of the nazi victims possessed much of. I am afraid to say that the methods were efficient and did not cause too much troubling of the consciences of the many who would have had to deal with the more conventional methods compared to the few who dealt with this mechanical approach. The Nazis would have considered this aspect too. How many ordinary soldiers would have taken part in the murder and disposal of thousand of men, women and children per day?



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Re: Holocaust mysteries!
Englishman, You said: "How many ordinary soldiers would have taken part in the murder and disposal of thousand of men, women and children per day?" You will be surprised... The killing of Jews started with common soldiers taking people to the woods, and killing them with a bullet in the head. Himmler himself made a visit to witness this "system", and by curiosity or efficiency analysis, decided to have a closer look, having brains spread all over its face in the process. Not surprisingly he found this system to be "crude" and "unpractical" (after throwing up), therefore having the death camps created. As someone involved in the Death Camps said: "it is amazing what people get used to". (This information comes from a book collection called "The Damned", which included Himmler's biography)


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