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Independence Day!
Independence Day arrived early this year for my next-door neighbour, Celia. It arrived in the guise of two Army uniforms with The Letter from the Secretary of Defense bearing the bad news that her husband had been killed this week in Iraq.
Whereas for the nation, this July 4th will be a celebration of the principles as enshrined in our Declaration of Independance, for Celia, her Independace Day will be a time of mourning, for a death delivered in their defense. I doubt we'll be seeing Celia at any of our July 4th functions. The last we saw of her and her children were their backs as they walked out on the funeral for a father and a husband just after Celia was presented with the flag from her husband's coffin, she threw it to the ground and stepped on it.
We Americans, whose signature by proxy now appears at the bottom of The Letter some 1,700 times, -signed by machine for an offical too callous to lend his own hand for those who lent their lives, -are compelled by simple justice and morality to account for and reconcile our July 4th sacraments with their sacrifices. We owe it to them to pause amongst the booze, barbeques, and bellyflops into the lake, be it at dawn, when the sun first rises again upon this Republic for its 229th year, or when the last ember of the last firework dims and floats away on an errant wind: Did Celia's husband die for "Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" or was his life squandered by malicious opportunists who themselves have stepped on the flag to advance their agendas? It is one thing to die for a principle, yet another to die merely for a prince.
It has been approximately two and a half years since the invasion of Iraq, with tens of thousands or more dead Iraqiis, 1,700 dead and 20,000 wounded or more US troops, $230 billion or more spent, a nasty and lethal insurgency underway, and as was presented this past Thursday at the Senate's Armed Forces Services Committee hearing on US operations in Iraq: no end in sight (http://makeashorterlink.com/?F30A3355B).
The bottom line of all of the testimony amounted to precious little to justify the outrageous waste of life and resources. What did America have to show for its sacrifice and efforts: political "progress", i.e. a committee of Iraqis to draft a constitution.
In answer to how long must we stay in Iraq: "dunno". How much will it cost us: "dunno". What concrete evidence do we have of "progress": two charts of poll results from US military surveys, whereby upon interrogation, over 70% of Iraqiis indicated "confidence" in the national government. The utter mediocrity and cluelessness of the three top US military officials, General Richard Myers, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman, General John Abizaid, US Central Commander, and General George Casey, Multi-National Force Iraq Commander does not instill any confidence that the war is in competent hands. Casey's automated retort to questions regarding tactics was abysmally superficial: "Action, reaction, counteraction." In answer to Sen. Jack Reed (D. - Rhode Island), Casey bravely predicts that as the "political process takes hold, we'll see a gradual lessening of the insurgency". Wonderful news.
Emblematic of the self-induced euphoria of the pro-war faction were the bizarre comments of Sen. James Inhofe (R. - Oklahoma), who in complaining of the media's insistance on reporting only bad news, and as some sort of counterweight to the daily murder and mayhem, offered anecdotal evidence from his recent visit to Iraq, recounting the "tears in the eyes" of Iraqi security forces when Marines withdraw, dropping candies and cookies from helicopters over the "Sunni Triangle", and of kids waving US flags. The problem with the media not reporting any good news from Iraq is simple: there isn't any.
In digression from the uncomfortable fact of little good news was the familiar tactic of tarring critics of the war as "unpatriotic", who, if "not careful about what we say", put our troops in mortal danger, as per Sen. Jeff Sessions (R. - Alabama). Countering this suggestion was Sen. Robert Byrd's admonition to Rumsfeld that rather then too many questions, too few were asked at the beginning of this catastrophe.
One would have thought that the committee would have spent the precious little time it had to a discussion of the merits of the mission, whereas it seemed the most pressing problem was The War on American Opinion. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R - S. Carolina) pointed out that the latest polls pegged public support for the war at 39%. He opined that the only thing which could defeat the US military and cause it to withdraw from Iraq was for American public opinion "to go south". When asked about this "problem", Rumsfeld dismissed polling as a fool's pursuit, and offered the ironic comment that if the American public was given the right information, he had "full confidence" it would make the right choice about Iraq.
And so this July 4th, here we are in a land without hope, in a war without end. Launched on a lie, financed at the cost of "certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", such as education, employment, health, the environment, and all of those other more boring responsibilities for which "Governments are instituted among Men".
We would do well in considering George Bush and what his acolytes have done, to recall some of the particulars of the indictment against the King of Great Britian in the Declaration of Independance, thus clarifying how far this Beast, this Beauty, this America has strayed:
"He has obstructed the Administration of Justice...
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation."
Perhaps we owe it to Celia and her kind to re-declare our Declaration of Independence and take back this country.
Message was edited by: oD Forum Moderator [- link shortened to avoid stretching the page]
Submitted on Sun, 2005-06-26 01:20
Re: Independence Day!
Who Are Americans to Think That Freedom Is Theirs to Spread?
By MICHAEL IGNATIEFF
Published: June 26, 2005T
"There is nothing worse than believing your son or daughter, brother or sister, father or mother died in vain. Even those who have opposed the Iraq war all along, who believe that the hope of planting democracy has lured America into a criminal folly, do not want to tell those who have died that they have given their lives for nothing. This is where Jefferson's dream must work. Its ultimate task in American life is to redeem loss, to rescue sacrifice from oblivion and futility and to give it shining purpose. The real truth about Iraq is that we just don't know -- yet -- whether the dream will do its work this time. This is the somber question that hangs unanswered as Americans approach this Fourth of July.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L22A4455B
Message was edited by: oD Forum Moderator [- link shortened to avoid stretching page]
Re: Independence Day!
More crapulence from neoposeur.
I can understand how that ringing indictment against the tyrant George III would stick in a Britisher's mind, fraud. Did you memorize the particulars in secondary school? Or are you the product of a public school? Eton, perhaps? Your smarmy cynicism and hypocrisy bespeak a monied background with little grounding in reality.
My question is, how long must we put up with the whiners and appeasers? Dunno. How long must the loony left insist that defeat and terrorism, and continued poverty, violence and want for Iraqis, are the only possible outcomes in that poor country? Dunno. How can the ditzy, hypocritical, psuedo-intellectual snobs hereabouts continue to justify the errant crap they post? Dunno. And how can this particular fraud, posing as an American in hopes of somehow legitimizing her hatreds and bile, live with her complete lack of shame, morality and native intelligence?
Dunno.
Henry Hart
Re: Independence Day!
henry hart,
Can it be just a coincidence? Neomommiedearest is a zombie regurgitator of "Today in Iraq". Today reports on two "uniforms" calling on Celia with bad news. Neomommiedearest just happens to live next door (in her "cottage") and write her own story describing the same two soldiers as "uniforms" too?
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Re: Independence Day!
Iron Mike,
["Neo's refusal to answer is not seen by most here as an admission of guilt, yet President Bush's refusal to answer the DSM is trumpeted as proof of his complicity. Do we apply different standards of to those in public office?"]
The short answer is YES. Neocynic was not elected by anyone and her responsibility to a few denizens of this thread is one that can hardly be compared to the responsibility to nation of 280 million people, where matters of life and death are involved.
Of course, none of what I have said condones outright plagiarism, when it is hardly necessary to make out whatever case neocynic was on about.
Re: Independence Day!
["1) Sure she's a liar. But she's OUR liar.
2) Sure she's a liar. But she did it for us
3) Sure she's a liar. But she did it for the greater good
4) The neocons tricked her into it. It was a conspiracy.
5) Another victim of American imperialism."]
Two can play at this ridiculous game.
1.Sure he's a liar.But he's our liar.
2 Sure he's a liar.But he did it for us.
3.Sure he's a liar. But he did it for the greater good.
4.The neocons (Washington Likudniks) and the oil interests tricked him into it. It was their conspiracy.
5.More Arab victims of American and Israeli imperialism.
No doubt I will be accused of plagiarism of the pathetic
posting of Trryosborn.
Re: Independence Day!
Sorcha.Murphy,
Your reference to what is known as the 'Dodgy Dossier', which was largely culled from an American Ph.D's 12 year old thesis by the Blair Government, isn't something that would irk our Iron Mike, although it was put in front of the British Parliament as being the work of the UK intelligence service. This outlandish and disgraceful plagiarism, that was influential in getting Parliament to approve the war, is of infinitely greater significance than neocynics little game on OD, but will not be acknowledged by Iron Mike as being a case of criminal manipulation. Needless to say that the actual contents of the 'Dossier' proved to be completely out of date and of no consequence.
Re: Independence Day!
Regarding this subject of "plagiarism" (I do not think it is the correct accusation, the events are more in the line of a "deception", if not properly explained). Its connection with the conduct of Pres. Bush and P.M. Blair and their administrations reminds me of a small parabola:
There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
I would say that the rich man resembles those that are unwilling to condemn the wrong deeds of the powerful, yet gloat on the mistakes of the insignificant. And while they are averse to admit a lost of credibility of the big, are quit to brand dishonesty into the small.
If Neocynic is truly on error, and recognizes it or retreats from OD, then what a magnificent example it poses to those that shamelessly keep deceiving others, with such resolute displays of indignation that make many doubt they have been fooled, misleading them twofold.
Smart politicians would say, "it is only a lie when you fail to defend it".
I will say that to be true to your conscience is to walk with head up, if you stumble and fall you may raise again to walk in conscience. The failure is to crawl in error, in vile perpetuation of the same fall.
Re: Independence Day!
I agree with you this is more a case of "deception," but from there we diverge.
I do not excuse large deceptions and condemn the small ones. In the cases of Bush and Blair, I just do not agree that a large deception has been proven...only alleged. Neo is another matter.
> If Neocynic is truly on error, and recognizes it or retreats from OD, then what a magnificent example it poses to those that shamelessly keep deceiving others, with such resolute displays of indignation that make many doubt they have been fooled, misleading them twofold.
Of course, it would not be the "magnificant example" if Ttrry had not revealed and condemned it. Had he ignored this "small" offense as you suggested, the example would have been lost. Do I interpret your statement as thanking him for doing this civic duty?
;)
IM
Re: Independence Day!
If this is truly plagarism, and neocynic has used someone elses pain to prove a point then as an American, who's father served in a war that was claimed as unjust but served because that is what his country asked of him, I am thoroughly disgusted. If this is a case of neocynics poor style of writing, no offense, as in her memorial day story then I hope neocynic clarifies this. My father served, not because he agreed with the war, he was drafted as were his brothers. They did their duty, and as damaging as he was to us kids when he got home, I would accept that flag with pride for his honor. I find it difficult to believe that a woman who loved her husband would dishonor his memory by throwing the flag onto the ground and stepping on it especially in front of her children. I truly hope that this gets some clarity. I may not agree with Bush and Iraq, but I was sure proud of him when we bombed the hell out of Afghanistan. I am proud to be an American, and I care enough about my country to ask whether we have the right to be in another country for the purposes laid out, or if it really is for a more hidden agenda--oil.
In Rueters today, there was a report on China's president courting Russia, being the second largest oil rich nation, to avoid "the US influenced middle east". Wonder why?
How about someone start looking at other self replenishing forms of fuel? Solar has been used for over 5000 years, (interesting book which never made it back to my junior high school library, oops) We have become incredibly lazy, spoiled rotten people. We invent all these gadgets, that are suppose to make life easier to afford us more free time, which in turn makes us have to work harder to pay for these modern conveniences, just to have to turn around and buy the updated ones because the ones you just bought after all that hard work is now outdated. Yes, my computer is old and doesnt have a bunch of fancy crap on it, I dont care if it takes a whole 20 seconds to download something (that always cracks me up ...instant down loads no more waiting seconds!like thats a lifetime) I have never owned a cell phone until a friend gave me one, which I usually leave on the counter anyways, and I still have my original play station thats 10 years old. While I applaud some innovations, quite frankly alot of this STUFF is just that STUFF. Toys, useless peices of crap. We pay farmers not to farm their land, small mid western towns are folding up. Jobs are moving overseas because they have cheaper labor due to governments that donot protect their people. I could ramble on, but this web is just too interweaved. I hear more kids whine about being bored today than we ever did, and we had so much less.
Example: How long does a typical person look for the remote for the tv, instead of walking over to the tv to change the damn channel? Ive actually timed a couple guys after hiding the remote and putting the tv on a slop opera (not a typo) out of the five, the shortest made it through the entire half hour before walking out the door in disgust. You really dont want to hear how bad the worst one was, my goodness what rage!
We have so much wrong going on globally, that by getting quagmired in the war on terror is avoiding these issues. I guess I will have to start a new thread, but like the others, I dont seem to get anyones ideas about how we might start in a different direction.
I digress, I am tired and saddened to see such intelligence put to such waste.
Good luck to you all, and God bless for those of you who believe
Joeanna
Re: Independence Day!
Joeanna:
It's not merely plagiarism, which, as someone has pointed out, is endemic to the web. Neocynic, unfortunately, has a history of posting outright lies and being deceptive. While clearly not an American, she has put information in her bio and posted to that effect, possibly to make her consistently anti-U.S. ramblings seem more credible. This latest is just the most egregious offense. Why not just copy the text, with the link, and let it stand on its own merits -- like everyone else here seems content to do? Neocynic seems incapable of removing herself from the drama -- or not inserting herself into it. She's a hypocrite and a fraud, and her recent silence shows that she does not even have the courage of her so-called convictions.
Henry Hart
Re: Independence Day!
> She's a hypocrite
> and a fraud, and her recent silence shows that she
> does not even have the courage of her so-called
> convictions.
Henry,
You may be correct in your assessment, but in all fairness, it may be suspicious, but refusal (or absence) of a response is not prima facia evidence she lacks the courage of her convictions. I've taken months off OD when family and work responsibilities take precedence. I'm sure some may have taken that to mean I am unwilling or unable to engage in debate. But in the words of Freud, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
IM
Re: Independence Day!
Iron Mike,
You said:
"Do I interpret your statement as thanking him for doing this civic duty?"
You can certainly interpret like this. I have no problem in thanking him for the "civic duty" he did to OD, and I already said that he had valid contributions... Sometimes... When he is not in his uncivilized mood.
"In the cases of Bush and Blair, I just do not agree that a large deception has been proven...only alleged. Neo is another matter."
Yes, one could only wish the case of Bush and Blair could be so Black&White like Neocynic appears to. Like starting a war claiming that Saddam had something, that afterwards they could not produce.
Unfortunately we can only allege that they deceived the word in order to invade Iraq ;)
Re: Independence Day!
Eduardo,
Thank you for shining the spotlight on the other key element of arguments of hysterics on OD. that is their charges are always "alleged". They are NEVER written in stone as often claimed.
"Speculating"? "Alleged"? that has the correct ring about it. We'll keep both.
Perhaps some sanity is starting to creep into the fringe.
Re: Independence Day!
Ttrryosborn:
Today reports on two "uniforms" calling on Celia with bad news. Neomommiedearest just happens to live next door (in her "cottage") and write her own story describing the same two soldiers as "uniforms" too?
I have perused the Today site http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/ and find no mention of Celia. Could you provide both myself and any other interested party with the link? I am sure you would have saved it in order to back up your allegation with a fact.
I will not hold my breath, for as is wont with most of the pro-war faithful, finding facts is simply not a part of their repertoire. Lying is.
What is also a part of your repertoire, as is plainly evident from all of your posts, is a penchant for the irrelevant, a paucity of facts with supporting links, and a poverty of imagination when departing from the rote propaganda lines you robotically spout ad nauseaum.
Your fear of meeting my argumentation point by point, fact by fact, is evinced by your recourse to red herrings. Henry Hart tried to divert attention away from the simple fact of failure in Iraq as laid out in my many posts with the silly and irrelevant protestation of, -of all things, -my citizenship (go figure).
Your similarly comical attempt to divert attention away from the fact of popular and indeed, now majoritarian, discontent with the war, as illustrated anecdoctally in my post, with juvenile jibes and impotent mockery only lends further credibility and integrity to those of us who need only rely on fact and reason to conclude that this war has proven to be an unmitigated foreign policy disaster almost on par with that of Vietnam.
It is only a matter of time until it will surely exceed it.
Re: Independence Day!
Neoliar,
You plagiarized your story and put yourself in the middle of it.
Re: Independence Day!
Ttrryosborn:
I said to you:
I have perused the Today site http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/ and find no mention of Celia.
I asked you:
Could you provide both myself and any other interested party with the link?
You replied:
You plagiarized your story and put yourself in the middle of it.
Well, well, well...
Links talk, bullshit walks.
LOL!
So you have no link? You have no saved text in support of your scurrilous accusation? Thought not, but it is par for the course.
Facts always prove inconvenient for the deluded. My post regarding my neighbour was first put up on June 25, two days prior to your deceitful report of allegedly seeing it on the Iraq Today site on the 27th. Go ahead, blame it on the intelligence you had at that time, namely, nil.
Try debating the gist of the post regarding the testimony given before the Senate Armed Services Committee, or is that asking too much. Thought so.
Re: Independence Day!
Neoliar,
I read the story of the two "uniforms" at work three hours before coming home and seeing your plagiarized version.
Re: Independence Day!
Re: Independence Day!
Neocynic,
I am happy that you returned to face the accusations Ttrryosborn has made. Its coincidence with your prolonged absence made a pretty circumstantial case for him. But my sense of justice demanded me to wait for a reasonable time before concluding anything.
Now I would like to see things cleared, since a doubt has been raised. It is not just Ttrryosborn that has to prove his allegations, but also you have to provide evidence or explanations about this story.
Re: Independence Day!
Eduardo_Ferreira
but also you have to provide evidence or explanations about this story.
What do you need explained that is relevant to the issues raised in the post, i.e. the content of the testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee?
You may be diverted, I'm not. Nor are most intelligent observers of the issues.
Re: Independence Day!
Neocynic,
You said:
"You may be diverted, I'm not. Nor are most intelligent observers of the issues."
I am not diverted. I was here defending you from insults and holding the horses of those that would have you hang without waiting for explanations (something that I would do for anybody else on OD). It is only fair that we got these explanations now.
If you care to read, I had these statements about the situation in cause:
People make mistakes, but sometimes we see more of their character in the way they deal with the mistakes made.
[]
If Neocynic is truly on error, and recognizes it or retreats from OD, then what a magnificent example it poses to those that shamelessly keep deceiving others, with such resolute displays of indignation that make many doubt they have been fooled, misleading them twofold.
[]
You see, you cannot point a finger to anybody else if you are prone to follow the same path.
Therefore, I ask you not to follow the example of Ttrryosborn, ignoring the subject of discussion and diverting to other matters. You are even picking other bad habits from Ttrryosborn, like hinting at my intelligence.
I also ask you to come clean about this subject, if that is what you expect from others, namely your own administration in cases like that Senate Committee Inquiry that you mention.
Finally, do not think for a moment that because we share similar opinions on some subjects I will have different standards regarding subjects like civility and integrity.
Re: Independence Day!
Eduardo_Ferreira
namely your own administration in cases like that Senate Committee Inquiry that you mention.
Say what?
Re: Independence Day!
Dear Neo,
I am going to ask you flat out two questions. NO dancing, NO samantics, NO skirting.
1. Is celia really your neighbor who received a death notice by the military, subsequently stepping on the american flag at her husbands funeral?
2. Is Henry correct that you are not an American mother of two, and if not why do you think he knows you as a Brit?
Please answer as simply and directly as possible. I found your answer to Ttrryosborn as a possible bluff, in that perhaps you were hoping he could not quote his source. If it is truly not your neighbor than you should state so, especially if you believe President Bush should clearly state his intel and subsequent invasion of Iraq was proper.
Joeanna
Re: Independence Day!
Joeanna Nee:
I am only doing this as a personal indulgence to you. The answers are:
1. Celia really was my neighbour and I posted comments regarding her since June 25, predating osborn's bullshit. I was at the funeral. I am not about to publish her last name, the name and unit of the deceased, and our home town.
2. I am an American citizen residing in an exurb of Chicago, Illinois. He thinks I am British because I spell with English vowels inserted in such words as "colour", or "neighbour".
Since Today in Iraq archives its material for the previous year, I invite you to go to the site http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/ and search to satisfy yourself that bullshit is not only a favorite tactic for the dishonest and immoral, but is the foundatuin for this war and the Bush agenda.
Re: Independence Day!
Here is an example of the pro-war faith-based "patriot" mindset:
..."Paul Harvey's Tribute to Slavery, Nukes, Genocide
Hateful rant shows Disney's double standard on speech 7/1/05
Disney/ABC radio personality Paul Harvey, one of the most widely listened to commentators in the United States, presented his listeners on June 23 with an endorsement of genocide and racism that would have been right at home on a white supremacist shortwave broadcast.
Harvey's commentary began by lamenting the decline of American wartime aggression. "We're standing there dying, daring to do nothing decisive because we've declared ourselves to be better than our terrorist enemies--more moral, more civilized," he said. Drawing a contrast with what he cast as the praiseworthy nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in World War II, Harvey lamented that "we sent men with rifles into Afghanistan and Iraq and kept our best weapons in their silos"--suggesting that America should have used its nuclear arsenal in its invasions of both countries.
Harvey concluded: "We didn't come this far because we're made of sugar candy. Once upon a time, we elbowed our way onto and across this continent by giving smallpox-infected blankets to Native Americans. That was biological warfare. And we used every other weapon we could get our hands on to grab this land from whomever.
"And we grew prosperous. And yes, we greased the skids with the sweat of slaves. So it goes with most great nation-states, which--feeling guilty about their savage pasts--eventually civilize themselves out of business and wind up invaded and ultimately dominated by the lean, hungry up-and-coming who are not made of sugar candy."
Harvey's evident approval of slavery, genocide and nuclear and biological warfare would seem to put him at odds with Disney's family-friendly image.
The media conglomerate syndicates Harvey to more than 1,000 radio stations, where he reaches an estimated 18 million listeners. Disney recently signed a 10-year, $100 million contract with the 86-year-old Harvey.
In 2004, Disney forbid its Miramax subsidiary to distribute Michael Moore's film Fahrenheit 9/11, even though Miramax was the principal investor in the film. A Disney executive told the New York Times (5/5/04) that it was declining to distribute the film because, in the paper's words, "Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film...could alienate many."
One wonders whether Disney executives are worried about alienating families who oppose slavery, nuclear war and Native American genocide. ACTION:
Ask Disney why it finds Paul Harvey's nostalgia for slavery and genocide and his calls for nuclear war acceptable, but deemed Michael Moore's film unacceptable."
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2569
LOL! One reason why I enjoy the posts of the pro-war gang on this forum is that like Harvey above, every time they opne their mouths, they advertise the sheer brute ignorance that only dogmatic ideologues are capaable of, -to compare them to Naziis is not unfair, nor invalid.
Re: Independence Day!
Neocynic,
I acknowledge your thanks, but they where not required. I just defend some principals of justice and anyone's right to express his opinion without being insulted. One must do for others what he would like others to do for him, and expect nothing in return.
You did get irritated by the preeminence your "anecdote" assumed, but there is little to apologize. I perhaps overreacted when you avoided more explanations, for the reasons you have provided. It is your prerogative to deal with the subject in your way and I should not have insisted; for that I apologize.
But it is understandable that the "Celia affair" would become the most noticeble. Certainly you would think that mentioning stepping on your flag would raise *some* attention.
Regarding your original post:
The money spent and the lives lost so far are but a drop in the ocean of possibilities. You are already dismayed at the consequences of the Iraqi war, but they could be only the beginning of a far worst scenario of death and destruction.
The fact is that in our present stage of technology, one person or a small group of persons can do much more harm than a standard army. With the available knowledge and the total lack of scruples it is possible to launch devastating Chemical, Biological and Nuclear attacks to any country.
What security measures could stop one person to board a plane carrying a glass of perfume? However if that glass is used in mid-flight releasing an aerosol nerve agent, then what could prevent that plane from crashing over a large city?
What security measures could stop a yacht from approaching a coastal city? But what if that boat carries drone aircrafts prepared to spread radioactive cesium over the city?
What security measure could stop mosquitoes? Yet can not they be used as vehicles to transmit a deadly biological agent into a city?
Security measures are no match for the technological possibilities of inflicting harm. The only real security we could have is to have no need for security.
If the war in Iraq has inflicted pain and created anger in the US, then what is it doing in the Islamic world? The seeds of hate have been sowed, and who knows what will grow.
The technological superiority of the US and the higher education of the average American are not immediate guarantees of success in every conflict. Vietnam should have shown that. Yet there aspects in the Middle East conflit that would make Vietnam War a kids playground.
The first aspect is the Religious matter. Independently of the other distinction, the battle fields will be set by the religions. The Islamic religion (like many others) could be used to mobilize and radicalize people in ways that would be impossible for states to achieve.
The second aspect is the global range. The religious factor makes it so, and the sphere of influence the US is achieving are indications that if trouble arises it will spread everywhere.
The third aspect is economical. While the Westerners prime concerns are about Houses and Cars, the majority on this world is worried with what they will eat. Until now this has resulted in emigration, however, if instrumentalized, could lead to anger and envy of the Western riches.
The fourth aspect is cultural. While the education of the average Westerner is higher, so is the difficulty to make sacrifices and suffer harshness. What is unthinkable for us may be possible for them.
There would be a lot more that I could say, but to make things short: what would happen if a leader rises to use all the opportunities to rally countries created by this Iraqi war and the war on terror?
You do not fight fire with fire, you use water.
Re: Independence Day!
As of Sunday, July 3, 2005, at least 1,743 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. At least 1,343 died as a result of hostile action. The figures include five military civilians.
Re: Independence Day!
Eduardo_Ferreira:
Thank you for your kind post.
With respect to the multiplicity of scenarios you describe, I refer you to an excellent BBC documentary, "The Power of Nightmares", whereby in the present context of the "War on Terror", power goes to he with the worst scenario. It is interesting to hear from the publisher of US Today who has come out for immediate withdrawal from Iraq. He suggests that this war, Abu Ghraib, and the Patriot Act are manifestations of government officials who have been terrorized into pursuing fundamentally un-American policies.
I agree with your excellent point that "The only real security we could have is to have no need for security." It is a matter of historical fact that America, and its proxies, by far have been the worst perpetrators of terror in the world today. Though it is hard to accept, 9/11 was indeed a matter of an American chicken coming home to roost.
With respect to "sowing seeds of hate", and thus rendering this war a permanent thing, I recall Orwell's thesis in "1984" that permanent war is a mode of the elites to maintain power over the people with contrived scarcity through ceaseless and intentionally unproductive consumption.
Harrington's "Clash of Civilizations" was a detestable piece of empirically erroneous hate propaganda. The insurgency in Iraq is first and foremost nationalist, not islamic. After having lost the Soviet bogeyman by default, neoconservative fascists, and their faith-based patriotic brethern, would love us to subscribe to the delusion of a Christian vs. Islamic world war, for the advancement of their private agenda.
You are correct in pointing out the greatest threat to world peace and stability: the distribution of wealth. The New York Times recently surveyed the problem, disclosing that in the U.S. approximately 95% of this nation's wealth rests with 5% of American households. The implications are obvious.
The implication that you allude to: a demagogue rising to counter the American menace through mobilization of the world's poor is a credible and substantial possibility (e.g. Chavez in Venezuela). What this bodes for humanity in terms of justice and equality for all people everywhere raises the question: better the devil we know?
Re: Independence Day!
Joeanna Nee,
I have been gone lately and come back to OD to find that Neoliar has finally decided to crawl out of her hole after being busted for plagiarism.
I would not want to scare her away, so could you ask her a few questions?
In her ealier posts she mentionned "Spring is here upon us in the West." Chicago is in the Midwest. How does she explain that?
She mentions hitting a deer on Memorial Day in the middle of Memorial Day traffic. Why would a deer run out onto a crowded highway with thousands of headlights to frighten it away? Is it just another coincidence that she was the one out of thousands of cars on the road to hit it?
She writes of "the personal guilt of your father in having participated in the immoral Vietnam War." Does she still think your father was "immoral"?
After the open disclosures of guard misconduct and punishment by the US military, does she still believe "as a warmonger and torturer, America certainly deserves to be put out of its misery and run over"?
Would she like to be the one doing the running over?
Re: Independence Day!
Joeanna Nee,
I noticed Neoliar has been naugthy lately. Using the "B" word? Tsk, tsk, tsk. Someone should write to the moderator of OD. Vulgarity is against the rules. So is using a name other than your own. The moderator was explicit some weeks ago. she said that contributors MUST use their own names. The moderator needs to address these two violations. As for the "B" word. The "Today in Iraq" site is where Neo(youknowwhat) also "borrowed" the "bring 'em ons". I was surprised to find the same "bring 'em ons" last Sunday as Neo(youknowwhat) had posted. I happened to scroll past these "familiar" blurbs to find several anti-war articles including the "two uniforms" post.
I could believe Neo(youknowwhat) allot better if she claimed that "Today in Iraq" plagiarized her.
Re: Independence Day!
Dear Ttrryosborn,
Thanks for your concern. Please note that specific issues should be raised directly with me by email.
Just to clear up a point of confusion, there is no real names rule for the forums. In "The Politics of Climate Change" real names were requested by the debate's editor, not myself, and the request was debate-specific.
If you wish to encourage real names, please feel free to switch to your real name by going to your profile and entering it in the "Forum name" field.
If anyone wishes to check the guidelines and conditions, they're available here.
Best wishes,
Sarah
(- forum moderator)
Re: Independence Day!
Ttrryosborn made the remarks I have put in quotes.
"I read conservative, liberal and fringe blogs when things are slow at work".
Juding by the amount of references to reports in his posts, I judge that his job is watching snails crawl.
"I have more important things in life than OD and the others blogs I read".
When do you get the time Ttrry?
"I have no EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT in the ideologies represented by any of them.
I don't believe you, so there!
Re: Independence Day!
Sarah Lindon,
Read your post about names. Pardon the confusion. I thought everyone on OD worked together.
Re: Independence Day!
brolly3,
Read you July5 post.
"I don't believe you, so there"
I repeated you words to some ten yearolds. They were really hurt. I repeated you words to some adults--
they laughed.
Re: Independence Day!
Sarah Lindon,
I forgot to ask. Is there some concensus at OD on "profanity" like the "B" word? I recall a post from you on the subject even though I don't use "profanity" myself.
Re: Independence Day!
Ttrryosborn:
LOL! Start walking! LOL!
Re: Independence Day!
Terry
As you have not posted the link to your ‘Iraq today story’ re uniforms / Celia, the only conclusion we can come to is that you were bluffing in the belief no-one would check. Or, in the words of Henry Hart “a liar a hypocrite and a fraud”. How sad. Tsk tsk tsk.
Accusations should be backed up with some kind of corroborative evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. A link to your story would surely provide this. The even sadder thing is that several people have taken your word for it & leapt in to the fray with a vengeance. Surely an “ex journalist” like yourself would discourage this sort of reporting?
Re: Independence Day!
Ttrryosborn,
["Brolly,
Read you July5 post.
"I don't believe you, so there"
I repeated you words to some ten yearolds. They were really hurt. I repeated you words to some adults--
they laughed".]
Ttrry, you are really an ass. Couldn't you work out that I deliberately used a childisn expression as being appropriate to your childish comments.
I bet you won't show THIS post to those same adults because the laugh is on you, brother!
Re: Independence Day!
Methinks he doth protest too much...
Londoners have paid the price for Iraq and Afghanistan, says George Galloway. The Respect MP, whose Bethnal Green and Bow constituency includes the site of at least one of the bomb attacks, said the attacks were "despicable".
He told the Commons it was the US-led coalition's actions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo which had inflamed hatred of the West in the Muslim world. But minister Adam Ingram accused Mr Galloway of "dipping his poisonous tongue in a pool of blood".
The armed forces minister added that Mr Galloway's comments were "disgraceful".
No poet nor musician could hit the high notes of the sheer eloquence of those spurred by guilt when condemning the very thing of which they are guilty.
Re: Independence Day!
huck,
I've seem where people list sites for others to read. Do they do ask that a week later very often? No one asked me the try and "link" it the day I mentionned this "coincidence". In any case I don't know how it's done. I'm not a computer-savvy person. I just know plagiarism when I see it.
"So there" (copy right, brolly3)
Re: Independence Day!
Ttrryosborn,
"I'm not a computer-savvy person. I just know plagiarism when I see it."
Let me give you a hand with this computer problem. If you press the "history" button on your browser (the one after the "media" in Internet Explorer) you will open a window that specifies what sites you visited every day of the present week, and the previous week, until a total of 3 weeks.
I hope that helps...
Re: Independence Day!
The noted poet E.J.Thribb wrote these lines to mark the disappearance of our friend. I thought I’d share them with you:
------------------------------
So
farewell then
Terry
It would seem
you have done
a runner
Your bluff having been
called.
tsk tsk tsk
how sad
or maybe you’re just on
holiday
E.J.Thribb
------------------------------
Poignant, I’m sure you’ll agree.
Re: Independence Day!
Re: Independence Day!
Fear of the Truth
"In June, the government requested and received an extension from the judge stating that they needed time in order to redact the faces of the men, women and children believed to be shown in the photographs and videos. They were given until today to produce the images, but at the eleventh hour filed a motion to oppose the release of the photos and videos, based on an entirely new argument: they are now requesting a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals. Today’s move is the latest in a series of attempts by the government to keep the images from being made public and to cover up the torture of detainees in U.S. custody around the world."
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjI [...]
I guess that in the current context of US/UK-instigated bombings in London, videos of child sodomy at Abu Ghraib might bolster the already popular recruiting drive for "Al-Queda".
Re: Independence Day!
Neonazi:
The link you provided is useless -- in much the same way your posts are.
HH
Re: Independence Day!
This should work:
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=imOUU2rj8m&Content=608
If not, go to their home page, and you'll find listed as the second item.
Use a little initiative, Henry, then perhaps you may find too much information to challenge your quaint faith-based patriot's worldview.
Re: Independence Day!
14 Dead and....Time for A Vacation!
WACO, Tex., Aug. 2 -- President Bush is getting the kind of break most Americans can only dream of -- nearly five weeks away from the office, loaded with vacation time.
The president departed Tuesday for his longest stretch yet away from the White House, arriving at his Crawford ranch in the evening for a stretch of clearing brush, visiting with family and friends, and tending to some outside-the-Beltway politics. By historical standards, it is the longest presidential retreat in at least 36 years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti [...]
No need to wonder why Celia stomped on the flag. Look to the empty White House.
Re: Independence Day!
NeoP(P for plagiary),
Why am I not surprised that fiction writers and fanatics look for significance where none exists?
I have spent time in Washington D.C.. The city shuts down in August due to the heat and humidity--just like many Europeans capitals. It is a tradition. Congress, including its anti-Bush members, takes a long recess at this time as well as the President. The President and congressional members still have full agendas while they're away.
Stick to fiction.
Re: Independence Day!
Neocynic
To be fair, I don’t think the actual location of the president is going to make much difference to what happens in the world,. I’m sure he is in contact back at the ranch & logs on regularly to catch up with emails.
I must agree though with the inference of your mail that this is not a particularly good PR move in terms of his personal image, & the accusation could be made that it shows a very casual attitude & not enough concern to stick around, but his team must have made the assessment that they can get away with it without any bother. It seems to me that if you’re pro Bush it’s going to take something quite monumental to change your view. Is there any great criticism of this lengthy holiday in the US? Are people grumbling that he should be in the Whitehouse, taking control? I suspect not. It’s just par for the course with these sort of people, who do not live in the same world you & I inhabit. 5 weeks would be quite a short summer holiday for Tony Blair.
Re: Independence Day!
tttryosborn:
The city shuts down in August due to the heat and humidity
And pray tell, what is the weather like in Baghdad in August?
Huck is right that this is a matter more of optics than of substance. I would expect that after Michael Moore squeezed out some great comedic moments from our Commander-in-Chief's penchant for sandtraps of the golfing variety, his keepers would be a tad more discreet about his draining daquiris while his troops drain blood.
He could have announced no holidays, and a White House marathon of blood, sweat and tears "'till them boys are safely home", -with real tears in his eyes, -and still partied his ass off in Texas with none of us the wiser, given the impotent careerist bent of our media. The truth means nothing to this man, nor to those who elected him.
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