Pakistan is neither a British conspiracy nor a 'partition' of India. Pakistan’s independence from its British colonizers are reversion to its century old heritage and sovereignty. Every nation deserves to be free, and Pakistan has proved that it cannot remain subordinate to foreigners. And what makes you think Mr. Asif Khan that Muslims will be once again regain their lost status in post-independence India? The evidence is clear-cut. The recent targeting of Muslims in Gujarat should be shocking to ever soul. The fact remains that Muslims are seen as minority in India, and therefore, they have a long way to achieve equal status in everything esp. politics. murli_hyd, you are greatly mistaken that democracy is incapable in Islam. In fact, The Taj mahal was built by the Muslims, and India’s grandeur should be solely credited to it’s Muslim rulers. If Muslims were incapable of justice and democracy, surely they could not be capable of producing such a rich civilization for 1000 years!

> Hindu males are encouraged to Rape Muslim > women and to kill their children ! I hope the Moderator is reading this disgraceful hate-mongering... and will take the appropriate action.

Replied to wrong message Message was edited by: reachravi2004

Well im a sindhi guy whose grandparents r orignally from "pakistan" so being an indian in bombay now i can say that it feels a little weird. Althought im a proud patriotic indian i do feel some emotions towards pakistan( sindh to be more specific). I do not hate muslims or anything of the sort but i despise ppl who keep on ranting about their religion. Whatever happened to sacred prayers..anyways.. i do not believe India and pakistan can stay divided forever. I do not have fantasies like Advani about a united nation becuase our ideoligies are totally different. while we are a more open society our constitution is based on freedom. Unlike pakistan which based on either Islam or "anti india everything" sentiments. You dont see us pointing fingers to pakistan and saying these ppl are murderers.. unlike what one may see that about indians on PTV regarding "Azad" kashmir. A society based on religion eventually crumbles. You can be made zombies into believing anything from birth but once you grow up it would be good to see the world with your own eyes. Pakistan says we had ayodhya, godhra, the 1990 bombay riots... believe me as an INDIAN nothing makes me filled with more shame than to see political rath yatras.. or shiv sainiks wasting their youth n energy away.. but really.. how much better is pakistan..atleast we voted the BJP out of power for godhra... even though they made us believe INDIA was shining.. it was stained with blood.. I have never seen more hypocritical leaders in the world than in pakistan... barring the US ofcourse...benazir curses india in office and when she out she talks peace.. nevermind... Pakistanis have never shown any emotion towards ppl who were originaly from their hometowns in pakistan but but had to leave during partition or later.. Hindu sindhis, punjabis, kashmiri pandits.. no one talks about them.. but ask about Azad kashmir.. and they wil lrant for hours.. Honestly make the loc the new border.. fill it up with mines and concrete but really get over it.. there are more important things.. Poverty, literacy, womens rights.. india is far behind in the human development index( barring kerala maybe) and pakistan isnt much better.. your women arent safer than they used to be.. education is not widespread.. marriage at 18 or b4 is common... the same in india too to a certain degree in places like Bihar, UP, rajasthan... we have corruption, naked children begging but we believe everyone has a right to their own beliefs or reliefs.. we are a secular nation.. A sikh PM, a muslim President, a south indian hindu FM, and a former italian citizen heads the largest party in coalition.. i dont see anything of that sort happening in pakistan anythime soon....

hi hmm...well man u wrote about nurul hassan talking about muslims to be united...wel i dont get da slightest idea that why do u think its something weird?...u said'united against whom'...well i think muslims have to be united against every blame thrown on them especially after 9/11 incident....it seems as if all da muslims in da world r indiscriminatly looked down as terrorists after 9/11 .....so dont u think these muslims should unite to tell the world that they r not terrorists and islam is really a religion of peace....there is definitely nothing wrong with muslims geting united in my opinion....thas all i had to say

well honostly i find you very singel minded... you blame hindus for being full of hate, well wat abou u guys? i mean in pakistani schools indians are thaught 2 be the devils and "infidels" who u hav a right to kill!! do indians preach this in school? NO, we dnt teach our young gerneration to hate you guys, we are open minded! well and tht hindus r welcomed wit opened arms, is the biggest Lie i have ever heard!! an example my grandfather originally from Lahore wanted to see his hometwon after soo many years, how did he enter pakistan?? with 5 security guards, and then u r tellin me hindus are welcomed? in india 16% of the population is muslim, whereas there r hardly any hindus in pakistan, because they were all slaughtered by the muslims, and ur excuse: we r considered "infidels" well why should India even believe pakistan in any way to have friendly relations? i mean pakistan ignored the resolution in 1948 which suggested pakistan forces to leave kashmir, as the maharaja had decided tht Kashmir shall become a part of India... so this problem of Kashnir could have been prevented long time ago, if pakistan would for once have been open minded...

ya ok you all are just India never admits to their mistakes soo wat about Pakistan? Be more objective

The Pakistanis do have a complex about India. If not for the alms from the US, the country would have become defunct. Not that it is a thriving nation now. Islamic nations have declared themselves to be anti-secular. They follow Islamic law that gives advantage to Muslims over non-Muslims. It is wrong to perceive Islam as only a religion. It has political undertones. It is pitted against democracy and democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. The concept of Dar-ul-Islam is building a 'Nation of Islam'. The peace is assured only on achieving it. Pakistan being a Muslim country, is no differnt. This is the reason I feel we should look at Islamic countries from a political view point and not religious one. As long as one cherishes democracy and freedom, one is set against Islam. This is not by choice but because of the stance the Muslim Countries have taken. Look at Iran. They openly say that they WILL not encourage Secular ideas to take root in their country. To anyone who has been brought up on secular, democratic values, this may sound disgusting. If I say that I cannot co-exist with those values that reject Secularism, not only it is not wrong, it is the right stance for anyone who values Democracy, Secularism and pluralism. Look at Saudi Arabia. Can anyone go there carrying any religious symbol? Look who is talking of democracy and secularism.
The apologists of Pakistan subscribe to the same core values as those of the rabid countries that have contributed to global terrorism. Let me stand up and be counted. I AM DIFFERENT from you. I believe that Islamic thoughts have no place in Democracy. It pits itself against anyone who is not a Muslim. If Muslims have to live by Islamic law, they should do so in isolation as Pakistan has chosen to do. I do agree there are many problems for countries who value democracy and secularism. There will be many. We do not think that problems will disappear. No right thinking man (a secular man, I mean) would approve of Gujarat riots and it is not because it involved Muslims. But because it involved human beings. For me it is human life that is important. Anyone who has been watching BBC would know how the Muslims all over the world bled for those 'Muslims' in POK after the earthquake. Tell me who has isolated themselves? The other difference between Muslims and non-Muslims is that the non-Muslims think of a nation as geo-political entity. The nations enact laws to preserve their national character while respecting other religions. But in Islam, the nation is a religious entity. Wherever the constituent member of that religion goes, he or she remains tied to religion first and then to the place. This is another important contradiction that causes problems between people of any country when Muslims arrive there. I do think there will be no meeting ground between Islam and the rest of the world. I also think it is time we stopped peace overtures with Pakistan while our people, whether Hindu or Muslim die in our country from terrorism exported from Pakistan. I do not preach war against Pakistan, but the opposite of War is not peace. Let us shut them out.

Ok Im neither Hindu or Muslim but here are some facts. 1) India, Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh contain the same people genetically.. this has been proven by science.. we share the same diseases, the same likes etc. Its like being in a fight with your relatives.. yes sometimes people hate their relatives but look if we co-operate then we can progress as a society. Look at the Chinese they are together into one unified state. Why can't we do that? Yes ok.. attrocities have happened on both sides.. lets just forget it.. stop with this bickering.. its so petty.. When people from England or North America look at us.. we all look the same to them.. we are all brown to them.. you are all familiar with their derogatory comments.. so why do we try to be different.. Lets be civilised people!! Lets help each other out. Thank you.

India and Pakistan are two Totally different countries. Facts that India should be proud of, are also common with shared history of united India (pre partision). Pakistan, is a young country, trying to find its feet, in a new , ever changing world. It has forfieted its history, pre independence, out of its own choice. Some of the things being said about India and hindu's is just SHOCKING. and MEAN.(An Indian would defend his/her Muslim brother/sister, inspite of anything.And we are proud of Muslims as well as Hindu's.). So, it is best NOT to compare the two. But no one can change the shared history. Pakistan, is the ONLY country in the world, which was formed on the basis of religion. (Islam) Now, India is a multi cultural country, so, there is NO comparison. Pakistani's need to Experience democracy to comment on it. For Indian's they need to understand, they are an oppressed nation of struggling to form a basis for their nation. Imagine Pakistani's trying to defend and debase on OpenDemocracy forum.....hey....you can only LEARN but can't discuss, before you have DEMOCRACY in your country. Pakistan has been America's greatest friend and allie but has always been USED. They have never had any sovereign policy, which is an indication of their plight. They are muslim, but no one from the muslim world helps them. They are serving USA like a slave, for no benefit. And they still think, they can talk and discuss DEMOCRACY? 9/11 U turn was the most embarassing decision on foreign policy for them. Killing and procecuting the people who them helped setup. Is that friendship or political compulsion? Pakistan is eating out of the hands of AMERICANS. Their economy is on the brink of collapse, but for foreign aid they are getting, which isn't going to go on, after Americans loose interest, something they did, after Russians left Afganistan. Indian's never blame external people for their evils, or problems. Pakistani's do, all the time. Indian's are welcome abroad, and Pakistani's are discriminated. Which is wrong, but it is based on how countries treat each other, and other countries. I respect what Jinnah did, but alas, he didn't live long enough.... i am sure, he didn't want an extremist Pakistan, they way they are going. Every terrorist has something common with Pakistan. Which is not ideal. Need to do a reality check. Respect that Indian's generate, and compare that to how Pakistani's get treated, including Gulf countries. Important thing is to look forward to the FUTURE. Future is already bright for India's democracy. It takes decades and upto centuries for INSTITUTIONS to settle down,which result in prosperity and progress. India has all these things right, being a democracy, no one can take anything away. I haven't heard any Pakistani, sorry for terrorism, but they have JUSTIFICATION only. Which is pretty extreme, where as Indian's are ashamed for what happened against a peace loving minority. Look for the future, and future is bright for both, if they give up fighting among themselves.

Well Zeshan, Thanks for your immature comments, much to my expectations. Bringing the quality of the discussion down. I gave Credit to Pakistan, where it deserved. You obviously, only wanted to put negative points under the microscope, which applied to India. your assumptions about India doing the same, as what Pakistan is doing is Precisely what is wrong with Pakistan. You live in constant fear, that's why you debate with all your vigor about Democracy, which you have NEVER experienced. I am happy being a SANE 5 year old, and by the way, belittling someone with these hard hitting , kiddish statements, suits only a mean minded person. You can't live without money from the Americans. And you still back stab them by supporting world's most oppresive regime TALIBAN. That's Pakistan's contribution to the development of the international community. As a responsible member of the nuclear group, your scientist has prospered at the expense of international ridicule and embarassment of Pakistani nation, by running the largest of nuclear black market, no surprise, since , that's how it was built in the first place. And how that scientist, is being treated, is also a known secret. He was used, but both are back stabbing each other, which is a trait of typical Pakistani politics. BACK STAB TO GAIN STATURE. All terrorists have a safe haven in Pakistan, again, the best example of how to be a model neighbour. Can't live without Indian movies, Indian music or Indian fashion, most Pakistani's like to call themselves as British Asian, since when they say Pakistani, they are not welcome in Britain. Giving justice to someone who willingly went to blow up our democratic institution, doesn't really deserve clemency, but we can debate, in our country, you obviously have no law and order, living under the shadow of a dictator, who has NO ACCOUNTABILITY. You lost ALL wars with India, including Kargil. Didn't even bother to claim its own soldiers, which is shameful. Its ex prime minister was HANGED FOR A FLIMSY reason. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, was HANGED for next to nothing proven against him. I can understand your jealousy. But i must appreciate, your point of view, full of pointless vindenta against a more powerfull and might neighbour. Your comments about ...uneducated peasant, well, in my country we respect them as well. Which doesn' appear to be the case with you. Richest person in India is a muslim, so is our President, and they are proud of it. ....if the situation would have been reversed .... isn't correct english mate! May be you got carried away trying to respond to a balanced view. Indian's DON'T need to prove, as the WORLD BELIEVES THEM. Pakistani's well, you just who how they are treated. Calling me 5 year old, uneducated peasant, using cracked verson of word....Actually you are very good with the insults. I give in. I am completely incompetent to compete with you , when you have stooped to such a low well of human behaviour. WE CAN DISCUSS, WE ARE A DEMOCRACY. SORRY MATE YOU WONT UNDERSTAND THAT. YOU HAVE PROOVED EVERYONE , YOU HAVE A MIOPIC VISION. One exception can't mean, the entire institution is useless, which is again, your lack of understand, what a democracy is. I haven't seen any innovation from any nation that is based on anything but democracy and is secular. I won't even touch about internal matters of Pakistan. Pakistan is home to world's top 10 most wanted list of terrorists, that's why we have a REASON to point a finger at Pakistan. I gave due credit to PAKISTAN. as a young nation etc. you only implied that you are a lesser nation. This comes from your own low self esteem. NOT SOMETHING I SAID. YOU IMPLIED IT ON YOUR OWN. INDIA can't be compared to PAKISTAN or visa versa, on this forum, since Pakistan is a despotic dictatorship, which kills its own eleced leaders, oppresses its own people with out any trial, changes law to suit itself. Easy to point exceptions against Indian democracy, but its an unparalleled feat in the history of mankind, when 1 billion people vote for a parliament, never before has this ever been done. Cracked version of word, well i won't even go down to such petty level to talk on this forum. don't need to show me, how its done. I dont need to do that. thanks. God bless you with some maturity. Cheers!

Hi Zeshan, Well, you have changed remarkably since your first response. See i am not trying to compete with anyone here, in putting my comments across, all i wanted to do , rather tried to do, was to put focus back on discussing democracy, which is what this forum is all about. A small caveat, if one chooses to look for contradictions in my posts, cause one can try to compare two un related entities, would only get confused and deviate one from the point i am trying to make. Contradictions would always crop up, if seen or explicitly implied or compared one on one. Every institution that ever existed in USSR died, its won slow and permanent death. Anything worthwhile takes decades, if not centuries, to settle down as a system, and mature, as an INSTITUTION. I am refering to INSTITITUTIONS here. Not an isolated case of excellent, which can happen any where even small banana republics of today once in their hay days, gave their share of contribution to the world, but i tend to refer to institutional contributions that have endured across decades and or centuries. Democracy is such an institution that fosters most of the traits of a just, prosperous and civil societies, which gives rise to such nations and generations of continued innovators. Yes, USSR had its share of innvations, but at the institution level, their so called revolution was bankrupt since its inception. That's why it fell apart like a pack of cards. Most inventors of the brilliance that we see, coming from USSR , never EVER got a dime for their inventions. They starved their population to put up a farce, which was done in the name of trying to show USA down. We all know where they stand now. Stalin, who took control of the revolution, very early on was much more barbaric to his own people, than even Hitler was to his own people. Now, this again doesn't mean, other countries, which are not democracies, are doomed for oblivion. Certainly not. so, it is easy, to spot and highlight a contradiction. Cause you are not looking at what i am trying to show you. India has never once attacked any nation in its entire 10,000 years of history. But if attacked, yes, we do take every effort to defent ourselves. India has a long list of Muslim soldiers, who have got the highest militry honour of its defence. We take anyone attacking our country and our institutions as an attack on our mother i.e motherland. And there isn't anything wrong about it. Every country does it. India had almost reached Lahore in the war of 1965, but retreated back to its border, since it was never interested in war. In 1971 war, where East Pakistan, was completely overtanken by India, was again given back to the Bengali's, to rule their own motherland. Pakistani govt.'s that have attacked India, inspite of the hopeless odds against themselves, have been military govt.'s. The only peace accord, which is the Shimla Agreement signed between the two countries, was signed by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who was killed for trying to sort peace between the two south asian greats. India does at times, behave like a bully, but never plays like an aggressor. There are more similarities between India and Pakistan than probably any two neighbouring countries in the world. Goodwill at the people's level is also , next to none. But its lack of peoples power, i.e. Democracy, that is stopping Pakistan achieving its right to glory. I fully appreciate challenges that beseige Pakistan, but i think, the answer starts with DEMOCRACY. Western democracy has been adopted in the Turkish context and i really appreciate the right they would enjoy by adopting a western concept. A turkish muslim isn't any lesser muslim than a pakistani muslim. It takes a DEMOCRACY to criticise even the prime minister of the country. People can discuss and read about it and discuss police brutality of India police, because the police in our country is governed by a democratically elected govt. He has got a fair trial, and even the killers of Indira Gandhi got a fair trial, which lasted for about 9 years. Current mumbai blasts, which has now become the world's longest running case , running for more than 13 years, to make sure, their is no miscarriage of justice. I would rather put the onus of someone caught red handed, trying to kill , elected parliamentarians, and not TYPECAST the entire JUDICIAL SYSTEM of India. And the santity of our Democracy. Trying to trump India is futile. Its a waste of resources, for India, and certainly for Pakistan. But, India has other motives, rather than JUST dominating Pakistan. Its a country of a billion people, who are trying to assert themselves, on the GLOBAL forum. We want, and desperately NEED peace with Pakistan. Pakistan, should try to cultivate these institutions like world class universities, law abiding societies, stock market, world class banking, internationally competitive services industries. And the catalyst for all this starts with DEMOCRACY. Nijam Seth, if i get the name correctly, was put into jail, for speaking his mind, against the govt. Something millions of journalists do and take their freedom for granted , every day of their lives. Many dreated gangsters have been left off, from mumbai blasts case 1993, because there wasn't sufficient evidence against them. India again, is the ONLY COUNTRY in the world, which subsidises HAJ for its muslim nationals. Ask an Indian muslim, if he would like to go and live any other place in the world, chances are , he would say, i am not going any where. Your insecurity is completed founded in part reality but also part fiction. All hindu's from Kashmir have been thrown out of their houses, by their muslim neighbours. They have been slaughtered in their own homes, but obviously, that never gets raised. As for your background, being half pakistani , half dutch, well, i was not even trying to attempt that. Cheers!

With all due respect to almost ridicule your point of you, may i state that, most people who make tall claims, to obscure the truth, only make the truthfull more determined to come out in the open and let the truth prevail. Statement by Congressman Joe Wilson, Co-Chair Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans, before the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness and the House Committee on Government Reform May 12, 2004 http://www.usindiafriendship.net/congress1/wilson/wilson10.htm ( Since it is a statement before a Congressional Caucus, as recent as May 12, 2004, it MUST qualify for an indendent source, which MY IMAGINATION can't influence) More proof, about the Genocide, which captured the attension of the world media. http://www.factusa.org/PressRelease082205.pdf (Another USA web site, which is AGAIN, out of bounds of my imagination i guess) http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/KP%20IN%20LONDON.doc One of many news stories, from BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2885533.stm ( I don't think i need to tell you, if i can influence the santity and staunch impartial approach of this news broadcasting agency) This is how you welcome peace moves, in the right direction. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4415823.stm Some still have a head over their shoulders, when they talk like this.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061102/india_nm/india274690 Its home for everyone, irrespecive of their religion. Won't you agree. http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/99/1206/kashmir2.pandits.html And ultimately, Pakistan's Military govt's contribution towards resolving it peacefully. http://kashmirherald.com/october2001/pakrole-mediareports.html Basic facts about what's going on, in the valley.... Some Vital Statistics and Facts on the Pakistani Terrorist Machinery Aimed at Kashmir Number of Terrorist Camps in Pakistan: 37 Number of Terrorist Camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir: 49 Number of Pakistani-run Terrorist Camps in Afghanistan: 22 Total Number of Hardcore Terrorists Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: 2300 Total Number of Foreign Mercenaries Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: 900 Number of Pakistani terrorists killed by Indian security forces: 291 Number of Pakistani terrorists in Indian jails: 125 Number of Indian civilians killed by Pakistani terrorists: over 29,000 Number of firearms recovered from Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 47,000 Amount of explosives recovered from Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 60 tons (30,000 kg) Number of explosions carried out by Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 4,730 Nationalities of Foreign Mercenaries Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: Pakistan, Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Afghanistan, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq Deadliest Pakistani Terrorist Groups Active in Jammu and Kashmir: Harkat-ul-Ansar (recently renamed Harkat-ul-Mujaheedin) Headquarters: Muzaffarabad (Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir) Lashkar-e-Toiba Headquarters: Muridke (Pakistan) Hizbul Mujahideen Peak time of annual infiltration of terrorists into India: Summer months, when the snows have melted, under cover of Pakistani Army firing (Washington Post, Oct. 15, 1998). Number of people in Jammu and Kashmir killed in violence waged by Pakistan-supported terrorists over the last decade: over 20,000. Ethnic Cleansing in Kashmir: Nearly 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits (original Hindu inhabitants of Kashmir valley) driven out of their ancestral homeland by Pakistan-supported terrorists. Pakistan's response to charges of terrorism support: "It only provides diplomatic and moral support to the terrorists". To see through this outright lie, read about the "credible reports of official Pakistani support to Kashmiri terrorist groups..." in the US State Department 1997 report on global terrorism. The US Tomahawk missiles killed Pakistani terrorists belonging to Harkat-ul-Ansar in the Khost camps in Afghanistan this year. These terrorists were training to fight in Kashmir. The Harkat-ul-Ansar and the Lashkar-e-Toiba threatened US citizens recently in open news conferences in major cities in Pakistan (Kashmir Chronicle, Vol. 1, No. 6). The Pakistani government makes no attempt to shut down any of these groups. Most recent recruits to Pakistani terrorist camps: Kashmiri Muslim children as young as 12 years old, coerced into a dead-end career by Pakistani terrorist groups(CNN Online, Oct. 8, 1998). Why is the Pakistani economy in shambles? 70% of its budget goes to the military plus its debt payments, much of the military spending being on sustaining the Kashmiri terror (NY Times, Aug. 30, 1998, The Tribune, Oct. 10, 1998). EXTENT TO WHICH PEOPLE WOULD GO TO IGNORE A FACT, doesn't MEAN THEY CAN DENY THE PAST, CHANGE THE PRESENT OR EVEN INFLUENCE THE FUTURE. It is more complicated that ITS ALL YOUR FAULT . its Jammun & Kashmir, which includes Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. So, its not just about muslim majority. Even if you talk about justice to Kashmiri muslims, how can they expect any sympathy from the outside world, if this is how they treat their own neighbours? NO WESTER POWER HAS DARED TO INTERFERE IN THE KASHMIR MATTER. Think for yourself? TRUTH IS OUT THERE. Cheers.

India is secular: no one can question that. Plight of minorities in Pakistan http://www.thepersecution.org/news/newsline1.html Rights enjoyed by muslims who migrated from India to Pakistan http://www.islamicvoice.com/november.2000/interview.htm Pakistan, a haven for muslims. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=69426 Pakistan's crowning glory... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4964934.stm http://www.balochvoice.com/Reports/Pakistan_Is_a_failed_State.htm http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=414 That's the treatment people get at the hands of their own govt.(Pakistan) http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_bangla.html http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM Pakistan, on another top ten list. This time Genocide! http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP8.HTM Now a word about State of Pakistani economy HEROINISATION OF THE PAK ECONOMY http://www.saag.org/notes/note87.html Eating out of American bowl Purely on economic merits, the IMF should not have sanctioned this credit because one of the IMF's past conditionalities, namely satisfactory conclusion of a new power tariff agreement with Hubco, has not yet been met by Islamabad. The fact that the IMF has sanctioned this credit despite this would underline the anxiety of the US and other Western countries not to let the Pakistani economy collapse, but to do no more than to keep it on drips. http://www.saag.org/papers2/paper167.htm Pakistani economy in dire straits.... http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2005-daily/29-07-2005/oped/o1.htm Pakistan on the edge http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-india_pakistan/musharraf_rule_3935.jsp Pakistan has made life for people who came over from India during partision, real HELL. They are still called MUHAJIR. Extra judicial killing as well as military burial. Justice, the pakistani way may be? http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370115 Sorry mate, i am forced to interpret Pakistan's internal affairs, since you are trying to compare two completly different things. Anyhow, we have courts in our country, and institutions in place, which deliver justice and uphold laws of the land. Unlike in Pakistan, where law is a misstress of the ruling dictator. Every military ruler, has almost invariably died an un natural death. All democratically elected priministers are either assassinated or are in exile. HAVE A DEMOCRACY, MAKE IT RUN, like we have for so many years, before you start critisizing it. Nothing is absolute. We have corrupt politicians, but we accept that, openly. I am no more pained and ashamed of what happened in Gujrat, than any one else in the world. These are BUT these are not the NORM in our country. Your understanding of outsourcing is clear from your interpretation of a small communication issue with the letter m in south india. Well , the world's largest software companies ORACLE & MICROSOFT, have got their LARGEST development centers in south india, in the cities of Hyderabad (muslim dominated, which might please you) and B'lore. It isn't just about CALL CENTERS. That again, INDIA is at the TOP of the table. Pakistan has just started, but dream on..... Success of Fortune 500 companies in India is for all to see. http://ibef.org/artdisplay.aspx?cat_id=84&art_id=6989 For you, you have just STARTED, after getting American aid ( people you blame for all that's bad in your country). When you are at level zero, the first few steps would seem, 7% or 10% growth. Have the level of industrilization, have some world class companies like TATA STEEL, TCS, WIPRO, INFOSYS, RANBAXY, INDIANOIL, STATE BANK OF INDIA, CIPLA, DR.REDDY's. which all have listed on NYSC AND MOST TECH COMPANIES HAVE NASDAQ listing. THIS IS WORLD CLASS. DODGY FIGURES FROM PAKISTANI ESTABLISHMENT IS SOMETHING , your next Govt. wouldn't trust. India and Indian's rule CRICKET, AND ALL ITS BROADCASTING RIGHTS. WE control 70% of all the revenue the game generates. Indian exports are not AGAIN, limited to software (which incidenly is the worlds sun rise industry) it is also world leader in PHARMA, Automobile spareparts, Biotechnology and Steel. Indian MNC's list is constantly growing, TATA STEEL, TCS, HEROHONDA (world's largest motorbike manufacturer), Zee Group, which owns Tetra pack, which is the largest producer of food packaging in the world. Reliance Group, which has the world's largest Green field petrolium refinery in Gujrat, are some of the examples. Not to mention, what Non Resident Indian's have achieved Mittal Steel, Cobra Beer and Caparia Group. to name a few. Future is bright for India, for it is India and China, who have for the last 4000 years controlled 33-50% of world trade, but for the 150 years of colonization. Cheers!

Zeshan, i was only looking to defend comments , made against my country, India. I haven't really express my opinion on this forum, but i have always substanciated my views from news links to all 3rd party/ neutral countries. It is for the disconcerning readers to make their own views on it. INDIA HAS NEVER ATTACKED ANY COUNTRY IN ITS ENTIRE 10,000 YEARS OF ITS EXISTANCE. It is only when you compare and pull down India, that i think, the record needs to be set straight. India is the home and creator of world's major religions, including hinduism, jainism, budhism and Sikhism. Home of Satyagreh and founder of Non-align movement and United Nations. Pioneer of asian unity, and founder of Asian Games and fore front contributer of peace keeping forces for United Nations peace keeping missions, world over. As for existance of terror camps in Pakistan. Well, here's the proof. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200602/s1578394.htm http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/24142 http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/aug/01terror.htm http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1044850 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8147895/site/newsweek/ Majority of proof, coming from Pakistan's closest friend USA. BUT LET ME CATEGORICALLY STATE THIS, people of Pakistan are INNOCENT. For they dont' control the dictators. Dictators, dont care about the ordianary pakistani. They only care about themselves. They spend upto 80% of the budget on buying weapons, in the face of , stirring up hatread against India. Cause it suits them. Indian movies are banned in Pakistan, there is NO SUCH BAN on Pakistani artists. Mirza Ghalib and Iqbal are national treasures on both sides of the continent. We have as many muslim leaders which were given cult status and respect, for their contribution towards independence. If you mean to be stingy with your wishes, well , thanks for that as well. We wish you well, and it is everyone's interest that peace prevails. Probably more so for India, for it is now finally talking off as a major economic power house. Pakistani's are in this mess, which is pretty much of their own doing. So, blaming anyone doesn't help. Everyone is using you, AGAIN AND AGAIN. So, wake up and realise, there is strength in UNITY. India has its own problems like everyone, but WE HAVE THE POWER TO SHAPE OUR DESTINY BY THE VIRTUE OF OUR DEMOCRACY. This is not to push Pakistan in the mud..........THAT'S YOUR PERCEPTION, CERTAINLY NOT MY INTENSION. I sincerely appologise if i have hurt any Pakistani, while i am expressing myself. I wish well for Pakistan, may God bless Pakistani's with the courage to thrown away dictators and have democracy , that is the power to change their own destiny. Pakistani's are misunderstood, and their self esteem crushed by their own despotic rulers, which hasn't changed anything for Pakistani's feaudal setup of the society. It is always the poor who pays the price on both sides of the border. Ruling elite in Pakistan ( Zero accountability) or corrupt Indian policitians. I am not sectarian, so i wouldn't reserve my Salaam to muslims only. Cause i am an INDIAN. God bless everyone. Cheers!

I think i would give it to you, you are trying to put a very balanced view of Pakistan. What you say, might be true, i can't comment on it, as it is very difficult to analyse anything about Pakistan. Don't need to mistrust the Indian army, for it doesn't have any power, unless authorised by the Govt. of India, which is bound by more compulsions, like no other, being a mismash of more than 1 billion people's driver. With more than 15 political parties, forming part of the Indian Govt. it is virtually impossible, to get any line of action agreed upon. To be honest, i like Musharraf, from the point of view of what he is looking to achieve, but i only object to the way he has gone about it. What happens in Pakistan, certainly affects India, and visa versa. So, Pakistan's stability is important for not just Pakistan, but also the entire South Asia Region. Armed forces on the border, are for stopping al-queda kind of career terrorists, who aren't for anything worth while in the world. Everyone knows, its a fact, Pakistani's are the best hosts in the world. NO COMPETITION. But i would like to understand, from you via this forum, how would Pakistan sort out its current problems. No India, i can understand, USA is a compulsion, for most of the world, but CHINA? But Budhism, is actually 100% Indian. Here a link from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/religion/buddhism/ Infact, it is from the state of BIHAR, and the place where Gautam Budh got NIRVAN, is a place called GAYA, which is a dusty town in BIHAR. Most of my links were from a varied source of websites, news sites, forums, Indian as well as British and American journals. Cheers!