The democratic countries must courageously show a willingness to apply the principles on which their internal system is based to the global sphere
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Memorial Day PrayerPosts: Joined: 2005-05-13
Last Night's Drive Home from the Cottage
It came rushing out of the black night of the highway. I hit the brakes. My white lights made the long thick smear of blood and intestines glisten red, -it was not dead. A disemboweled deer lay flat on its broken back in the middle of the interstate, its upended legs crazily akimbo, still thrashing the ribbons of rain for dirt on which to escape. Her head jerked and scraped the ashphalt, flinching from the squeeling wheels of veering trucks and skidding trailers. My eye caught the glint of the headlights in her eyes, and she whispered to me, subliminally through the whoosh of my wet tires: Kill me, please, kill me. No one stopped. The Memorial Day weekend traffic pulled hard right and hard left, slowing briefly to gape at the grotesquery, and continued down the highway.
As America pauses this weekend to remember and honour those who have died in service to this country, it will be American blood that has most recently been soaked up by the desert sands of Iraq that will figure most prominently in our thoughts. The honour of the fallen in Iraq, and indeed of all who have served in Iraq, has been compromised by the grotesqueries of murder and torture perpetrated by the few in name of all Americans.
Thanks to our media, our politics, and a natural abhorrance, we have caught but the merest glimpses of the human horrors of this war on terror. We too have been forced to veer hard right or left, polarised by the radical changes it has brought to the American polity, with inhumane abuse abroad, and authoritarian security at home.
Fear is now our creed, paranoia our anthem.
Yet we continue down the highway, without stopping to challenge those who have, in what appears to have been a disaster of democracy, by way of almost electoral default, disemboweled the American Dream.
As a fitting Memorial Day prayer, stand up and oppose this horrid war, demand the immediate return of our troops, and depose those with secret fascist agendas, for it is America, the Beautiful, America, the land that England once dreamed of when it slept, that now whispers to us: Kill me, please, kill me.
Submitted on Mon, 2005-05-30 22:08
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Iron Mike,
[“You're right. I do ask myself why so many people, all over the world, are still asking the sort of questions that GTJ has asked. It is the very personal and professional reason that I participate here on OD. I DO want to understand why you think the way you do...and I want to reciprocate. As for me, I've learned a LOT from you and others here”.]
I am pleased to note your attention to the opinions and feelings of those who have fundamental doubts about the direction of the Bush administration’s policies and
Neoconsevative aims.
[“I've learned that many people in the West do not understand Americans and therefore do not trust them. [“They see American pride and patriotism = nationalism = the future rise of an American Fourth Reich. Given the history of political turmoil in Europe in the last 500 years, this is an understandable, but flawed conclusion”.]
I disagree with your assertion that a flawed conclusion is being drawn. I think it is important to make a distinction between the belief in democracy and freedom that one can accord the average American from the mistrust one has about the leadership. It is not the American people’s good intentions that are in doubt, it is the political and economic dynamics that are the driving force behind its actions.
Others and I have mentioned the ‘Project for the New American Century’ many times on this thread and have sometimes been told that we are taking it too seriously. However with many of those that helped formulate it being in the administration, the fact that several of its authors were urging the removal of Saddam Hussein long before 9/11, the fact that there has been quite convincing evidence by Richard Clarke, Paul O’Neill and others that Bush was preoccupied with Iraq before 9/11 and subsequently launched a pre-emptive strike, it seems to me to that there is a legitimate case for taking the aims of the PNAC seriously.
From a European’s perspective the aims of the PNAC look sinister, to say the least.It is not difficult to see it in a very different light to how a patriotic American might. For example and I quote:
“Revival of 1992 Defence Department policy guidance in "shaping of international security order in line with American principles and interests"
An increase in arms-spending so that the U.S. could "fight and win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars"
Creating "substantial margins of advantage across key functional areas of military competition"
Providing the president with the option of "regime change or occupation," echoing Bush’s announcement that "we will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defence by acting pre-emptively"
Opposing the creation and continued existence of international governance and monitoring agencies such as the United Nations and the International Criminal Court
Maintaining Washington’s "desirable" position of global dominance which has been developed and sustained by military might, and extending domination into emerging "new commons," such as in space, with the recommendation of reviving the "Star Wars" program.
The PNAC platform is clearly articulated and leaves little doubt of the authors’ position regarding several key points. Their objective is global dominance. Economic interests must be protected in order to maintain this dominance, and to do so requires incontestable military supremacy; a strategy that has led France to coin the term "hyperpower" with respect to the U.S”.
[“I've learned that many people in the West expect their politicians to lie to them so it completely bewilders them when they see an American president who tells the truth and even more incredibly, actually acts upon his convictions”.]
The above view of Bush’s veracity is nothing but an assertion. You do not know if he tells the truth. You may believe he does but you cannot be sure. He is surrounded by people who are smart political operators and who are quite capable of lying, spin and distortion. Some of them, including Bush himself have often changed their tune on most significant points with regard to the reasons for invading Iraq. You may believe that Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove, and the coterie of Jewish neocons including Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Paul Woflowitz, Elliot Abrams are transparently honest but I think you would have a hard job of persuading half your own countrymen to go along with you. Yet the old saying, birds of a feather, flock together comes to mind. Who appointed these people to high office – George W. Bush.
When Colin Powell presented ‘evidence’ to the UN prior to the invasion, of the existence of WMD, with photographs and other material, the American people were not told that much of it was from British Intelligence who believed it to be tenuous and doubtful. If there is such honesty as you claim, why were no qualifications made to the American people. Well, we know, Bush was going to invade come what may.
People in Europe are not fools and they have a pretty good feel for what is truth and what is fiction or pretence or expediency or real politic As you have said, 500 years of turmoil is a pretty good grounding for developing an intuition about political leaders and a scepticism that is healthy when it comes to assessing politicians, who only gain the heights of their profession by possessing a much greater than average ruthless streak and drive for power. Bush is the most unpopular President that I can think of from a European point of view. It is not for nothing that he has got this reputation. People sense that he is a phoney. I am not saying he hasn’t got some sort of born again Christian faith. I am saying that this is what he can use, unconsciously, to justify deceits. Tony Blair probably has this in common with Bush. It seems to me that for a sophisticated observer you completely discount the psychology (often psychopathology) of leaders and how it can influence their policies and decisions.
There is also a strong possibility that George W.Bush is himself being manipulated by much cleverer people in his administration and among his advisers. The neocons, many of whom are Jewish, have a very strong identification with Israel and its security. I quote below a passage from a British website. I don’t think you can argue that the White Paper did not exist as it has never been denied by its authors:-
“The ultimate neocon goal is a U.S. war with Iran over the nuclear issue. That would serve to postpone indefinitely Washington's attention to the Palestine question. In “A Clean Break’: A New Strategy For Securing the Realm,” the 1996 white paper prepared for Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu by the neocons/Zionists Richard Perle, David Wurmser and Douglas Feith, the authors envisaged America fighting Israel's enemies in the Middle East. It contained not a word about the consequences for the United States – raising a question about the judgment, if not the loyalty, of the three authors”.
I would add that 9/11 presented the opportunity for the neocons to ‘assist’ President Bush in reaching his decision to invade Iraq, a principal enemy of Israel, albeit not the most important one, which is Iran. It also played into the hands of the oilmen in the administration and the US oil interests that helped fund Bush’s election.
[“I've learned (no surprise here) that the media here and throughout the West is agenda-driven and provides "news" with a leftist slant that leads good people to bad conclusions”.]
I cannot speak for the US, but in the UK, the largest media enterprises are owned by right wing press barons, foremost of which is the neoconservative Rupert Murdoch.
There is certainly nothing left leaning about his newspapers or TV Channels. I can also claim that a ‘lot of good people are led to bad conclusions’ through the rightist slant. I have only advanced this argument to show that it can be presented equally effectively (or ineffectually) as yours is.
[“I agree that not enough Americans see enough of the rest of the world to give them perspective. Americans are individualists however and the negative opinion the Europeans have of them is unlikely to have much effect. We simply do not care what others think of us. There are notable exceptions of course...the apologists who are more concerned with understanding why we were attacked, than in prevention of future attacks”.]
You speak as if the US can disregard the unfavourable opinion of much of the rest of the world. This is erroneous in the extreme. In the coming decades the US will once again need the support of Europe as China emerges as a great rival superpower. The occupation of Iraq has shown that the US military is being taxed in loss of men killed and wounded, so as to affect the recruitment for the military. Any further unilateral attempts at regime change will stretch the US military to breaking point and bring back the draft. Nothing is more likely to bring down the military adventurers that think that the war on terror can be won by military force and invasions, than the draft.
The evidence is mounting daily that the US people will not continually countenance putting their children in harms way against hit and run terrorists, when co-operation with other countries and high level intelligence can do the job more effectively and with less cost.
[“But I also suggest that many, many Europeans have not traveled to the third world countries in which they have such strong opinions. There is no substitute for "boots on the ground" experience of living and working with the people for which you offer an opinion.”]
You are very wrong. I would say that far more Europeans have visited Third World countries than Americans because of their colonial past and the attachment many of these have in trade and other links with their former colonial occupiers. The French, Belgian, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish and British former colonies span the world. How can you make such an ill-founded statement!
[“My perspective is influenced by years of living in Asian countries and Middle East. I've seen abject poverty, corruption, and cruelty that I never imagined living in America. I've also made incredible friendships with diverse people and shared language and culture. I don't claim to be an expert; I just claim some limited first hand experience. But can you claim the same before "knowing" what another country's people want for their future?”]
I can make as good a claim as you, in as much as my wife is Asian and I have lived in the Philippines, done business in Malaysia and South Korea, visited Israel (by no means Third World) several times and seen the condition in which the Palestinians live, apart from having lived in Poland, Belgium and France.
For Europeans and many elsewhere, the United Nations is an institution that they believe in. They recognize its imperfections but like everything else, believe it capable of improvement. In every sport there is a third party charged with intervening to see that the rules are obeyed. Well, after WW2, it was clearly seen, as it was after WW1, that some institution needed to be developed with rules, that could be arbiter of disputes, in order to prevent them deteriorating into conflict. The extract from Wikepedia defines the aims of the League of Nations and to a large extent the United Nations much better than I can:
“The League of Nations was an international organization founded after the First World War at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919. The League's goals included disarmament; preventing war through collective security; settling disputes between countries through negotiation and diplomacy; and improving global welfare.
The diplomatic philosophy behind the League represented a fundamental shift in thought from the preceding hundred years. The old philosophy, growing out of the Congress of Vienna (1815), saw Europe as a shifting map of alliances among nation-states, creating an equilibrium of power maintained by strong armies and secret agreements. Under the new philosophy, the League was a government of governments, with the role of settling disputes between individual nations in an open and legalist forum. The impetus for the founding of the League came from Democratic U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, but, along with many other countries, the United States never joined the League of Nations”.
Note that although it embodied the ideas of Woodrow Wilson, the US never joined. Harry Truman was wise enough to help create the UN after WW2. He recognized that such an institution was necessary. Countries, like individual men, sometimes cannot resolve a conflict with another without the intervention of others who are not emotionally involved and can see the dire conequences that the protagonists do not consider in the heat of passion. It seems to many of us that the neocon policy is to ‘go it alone’ relying on military supremacy being maintained. This is clear from PNAC text and the macho pronouncements of Rumseld and Bush. When Tony Blair was going through his most intense period of criticism and political fire prior to the invasion, Rumsfeld made it clear that Blair could get himself off the hook, by withdrawing Britain from the military aspect of the war. He believed that the US could manage without the UK, which was no doubt true. This proposal was made for Blair’s sake.
History has proved time and again that no country can dominate the world for more than a finite period. In this age of ever increasing technological developments the knowledge of which is becoming more widespread by the hour, it is madness to think that one country can keep ahead of all others long term in weaponry. The rate at which countries like India and China can produce science and computer science graduates is already alarming western countries, who are beginning to get the fall out from an economic point of view even in sectors of the economy that they had thought would remain their special sphere while leaving the manufacturing of common consumer goods to the others. How can the US stop the Chinese eventually going hell for leather after the most sophisticated weapons in order to match the US. The PNAC ambitions are clearly a response to this recognition but they will not work. All history dictates so. In any case it only takes a small suitcase to detonate an atomic bomb and no amount of expenditure on star war shields will be able to stop this.
It is vital that the coming competition for scarce resources is kept under some sort of control by an institution such as the UN, acting in the world’s interests to prevent war between major powers. The US occupation and attempt to ‘democratise’ the Middle East or parts of it, is not viewed as such by the Chinese. It is well aware of the aim of the US to install ‘friendly’ governments that will allow it military bases so that it can gain a stranglehold on the regions oil resources and thus to be able to influence the supply of oil to future adversaries. To believe otherwise is to be naïve. The lack of any real pressure on Saudi Arabia,Egypt, Kuwait to democratise makes it patently obvious as to the real aims of the US. These countries could easily go the way that Algeria took in 1992 when an Islamic government was elected and which was suppressed by the Algerian military with French behind the scenes backing.
Your reference to Americans being individualists who do not care what others think, may have some elements of truth to it but it sounds foolhardy and foolishly macho in the modern interconnected world.
You may wonder why those of us outside the US are so bothered by what we conceive of a very dangerous route being taken by the US. Well it is because the big wars in the 20th Century were world wars and Britain under Blair, which already houses US bases, is offering the facilities of its advanced radar establishment at Fylingdales in Yorkshire, for the US to use in its star war plans. We will willy nilly become the target for missiles in a future large scale war. The Chinese (apart from the Russians, who can already easily reach us),will undoubtedly develop nuclear powered submarines with logn range capablities.
I would commend you to listen to the views of robert McNamara, whose views I quote from an extract of an article:
“Robert McNamara (a former US Defense Secretary) and James Blight, share the fear of nuclear terrorism but argue that it can only be contained through the universal elimination of weapons of mass destruction, under the supervision of a possibly reformed UN. They oppose the unilateral use of force by the US except when America itself is attacked. They also argue that the US must change its posture from 'deterrence' to 'reassurance' and show more empathy in addressing the concerns of other countries and communities”]
I wonder if some of the neocons on OD will call McNamara and Blight anti-American and Bush haters, for expressing such views.
Message was edited by: brolly3
Message was edited by: brolly3
Submitted on Sat, 2005-07-02 14:05
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
brolly3,
Yours views of the PNAC perfectly match your view that the US should be "evicted from the Mideast, no matter how long it takes."
One obsession fitting another.
Submitted on Tue, 2005-07-05 07:41
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Fireworks anyone?
As of Monday, July 4, 2005, at least 1,744 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. At least 1,343 died as a result of hostile action. The figures include five military civilians.
Submitted on Tue, 2005-07-05 02:43
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
I won't waste too much time on Ttrryosborn's rather commonplace theories about attitudes of foreigners to the US. He makes out two categories, which I suppose for this blighted individual is quite an achievement. However it is beyond his limited intellectual ability to recognize that their might be a third category - those that think that the US is pursuing a highly dangerous, unilateral course, with the potential to bring disaster to the WHOLE WORLD unless it changes direction and therefore voices criticism of the Bush administration.
Submitted on Tue, 2005-07-05 17:31
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
One can only conclude that the whole US society is rotten from top to bottom if it can allow the criminals at so may levels, government, elected representatives, media,and business to continue to perpetrate murder and mayhem. A population that is so easily fooled deserves what it gets>
Message was edited by: brolly3
Submitted on Mon, 2005-05-30 22:27
reply 
A Real Memorial Day Prayer
Neocynic:
Your posts imply an American citizenship (or at least residency), which you directly claim in "My America: Letters to Americans" (http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=155&threadID=42929&messageID=62084#62084).
I shot your tripe down fairly gently on a different thread, but patience lags, and the truth must out. My problem is how to square your implication that you're a Yank with such decidedly un-American usages as "neighbourhoods (x4)," "favour (x1)," "centre (x1)," "honour (x1)" and "polarised (x1)." Given that you've only logged 10 posts (under the Neocynic handle, I mean) it's striking how many British spellings you've used.
Now, maybe you're a transplanted Brit or Scot, or perhaps you're merely an anglophile. I'd much prefer to believe one of those than to think that anyone would be so callow, cowardly and just plain moronic as to post such tripe while merely posing as an American. And to what end, such a charade? To lend weight to anti-U.S. criticism, thinking it more telling when it comes from a fellow American? Beggars belief, if true.
Also, perhaps you could clear up these two usages, from other posts of yours: "tyrd" and "whure." What the hell is a "tyrd"? It's not British English, American English ... or any other English that I can discover. There is a "tyrd" in Welsh, however. It means "come." There was a verbose, pompous, self-enamored barrister of Welsh ancestry hereabouts not too long ago, who might have been able to shed some light, but he hasn't been posting lately. Ah well ... As to "whure," it does come up as the lowland Scots version of "whore" on some Internet sites. But neither tyrd nor whure is anywhere close to American-speak ... not even in West Virginia, where folks speak a decidedly foreign language. Again, it would take a real turd to pretend to be an American to post anti-American drivel. But posted by an American or non-American, it's drivel nonetheless. As a slightly retarded bard has recently said:
"What's in a name? That which we call a tyrd
By any other word would smell so much sweeter."
Now, I'm sure some would complain that taking a fellow poster to task for his or her online fakery (if true) is missing the point. "What of the content of the post?," I hear them ask. "What of the message?" I'd answer that, a) the identity of the poster is indeed irrelevant -- unless they are deliberately falsifying such a thing as nationality merely to add some perceived weight to their posts, and b)the posts are so puerile as to negate the need for an answer.
Equating a dead deer in the road, and drivers swerving to avoid it, with the war on terror? How much more juvenile, sophomoric and inane could an "argument" be? First, Elisabeth (or whoever) ... did you swerve too, sweets? Or did you pull over, carry the poor battered ruminant to the shoulder, wrap her in your coat and comfort her til she shuffled off this mortal coil? Please ...
Even if this car-vs.-carcass catastrophe didn't actually occur, even as allegory, it sucks. My fourth-grader is a better writer and at least 5 times the thinker.
Now, me, I would not have swerved. I would have hit that deer with my SUV, putting it out of its misery. It's what we need to continue to do to any terrorist who has the temerity to stick his stinking head out of whatever hole he's hiding in, until they all finally get it through their thick, paradise-addled thinkers that it's just not a very good line of work.
If you are an American, Elisabeth, save your puerile prayer for addled souls such as yourself who cry crocodile tears for dying deer ... and for dead terrorists, I'm sure. The majority of Americans who reelected Bush, who support our troops overseas, who back the war on terror and who are intellectually more advanced than a lowland Scots whure, know that this is a necessary fight. We know that 9-11, Saddam's evil and other such nightmares aren't simply going to go away or melt under the false threat of a few long-distance cruise missile strikes. We also know that aberrations such as Abu Ghraib are merely that. War isn't pretty, or easy, or bloodless, as some untutored Americans (and whiny Euros) seem to believe. But it is often, unfortunately, necessary.
So permit me my Memorial Day prayer:
To the men and women of the U.S. armed forces, may the Creator guide you in your duties, safeguard you in times of strife and danger, shield you from the ignorance and spite of your detractors and speed you home safely as soon as may be. May the Creator bless our veterans, who have sacrificed much and risked all to safeguard our peace and prosperity and prevail over our past foes. And may the Creator, finally, help bring about a lasting peace, so that this war may be the last war.
Amen.
Henry Hart
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 04:28
reply Re: A Real Memorial Day Prayer
"Now, maybe you're a transplanted Brit or Scot, or perhaps you're merely an anglophile. I'd much prefer to believe one of those than to think that anyone would be so callow, cowardly and just plain moronic as to post such tripe while merely posing as an American. And to what end, such a charade? To lend weight to anti-U.S. criticism, thinking it more telling when it comes from a fellow American? Beggars belief, if true."
"Now, me, I would not have swerved. I would have hit that deer with my SUV, putting it out of its misery. It's what we need to continue to do to any terrorist who has the temerity to stick his stinking head out of whatever hole he's hiding in, until they all finally get it through their thick, paradise-addled thinkers that it's just not a very good line of work."
and here I was thinking that racism was on the way out. evidently not.
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 08:00
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
henry_hart,
You accuse others of verbosity but what do you think your post amounts to. I'll tell you. Trying to be too clever by half, by searching for the meaning and origin of a few obscure words on Google and then laying into neocynic as if you are the Crown Prince of erudtion.
After which you launched into your usual right wing, red neck diatribe about the 'war on terror' and include your customary sneer at 'weak Europeans'.
You will probably kill someone with your SUV before long and it won't just be a deer because your inflated self righteous and angry personality is bound to boil over sooner than later with serious consequences for anyone you judge to be in your way.
As for your little prayer, I didn't notice a mention of the thousands of innocent civilians killed by your saintly veterans. You are just a loud mouthed Christian Right bigot and unfortunately there are plenty more of them where you come from.
You and your progeny (if they are anything like you), to use an American expression, 'don't amount to a hill of beans'.
Message was edited by: brolly3
Message was edited by: brolly3
Message was edited by: brolly3
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 10:41
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
OH Brolly,
you edited your message three times, remove a few thing did ya hun?
Shame on you.
Joeanna Nee
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 22:27
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Joeanne Nee,
I am no more callous than those that constantly echo the neocon lines that the end justifies the means, although they put it a different way.This is exactly what henry_hart's type of argument amounts to.
It boils down to the following: 9/11 has given America
the right to inflict 'shock and awe', by which we mean bombs, on the Iraqi people and whoever else gets in the way of this fake war against a small minority of religious extremists, who were not even in Iraq at the time of 9/11.It also gives the US the right to decide what type of economic systems other nations should
have, as witness Order 39 of the Iraq Provisional Authority that Paul Bremer passed, that was aimed at privatising Iraq's industries,and this without any mandate from the Iraqi people. It also gives the US the right to put military bases into Iraq which are intended to be permanent from which it can strategically
( militarily) dominate the Middle East. It also gave the US (and the UK) the right to bomb outside the no fly zone for a year or so before the invasion of Iraq started, in order to try to provoke Saddam Hussein to retaliate and thus give a better pretext for a war that had already been decided upon before 9/11, in fact as soon as Bush entered the White House. Do you not see anything callous in all this?
A majority of the turnout at the presidential election voted for George W.Bush and his neocon war mongers, whose motives are clearly set out in the Project for the New American Century. Do you think that people outside the US do not have resentment for how the American people are following the White House criminals, who are quite happy to ignore whatever tenets of International Law exist and are the most hypocritical, lying and corrupt administration that I can remember.
As for my reference to the Christian Right, I do not think that this is echoing Hitler becasue these people are so close to the Nazi Party in their thinking, which is grossly intolerant.
When I label American society rotten from top to bottom, this is a figure of speech and is not meant to be attached to the poor and disposessed but to a system that allows two million people to rot in prison, to a society which worships the Golden Calf like no other,
in which people will support politically any party which will get them cheap oil for their SUv's, no matter what the price paid by those that resist American domination in the oil regions.
Venezuela, which is not a Middle East, had an attempted coup to overthrow its democratically elected president Chavez, who wants the poor and underprivaleged to share in the country's oil wealth. The US supported the coup atempt, because it fears that control of the country's oil wealth might be slipping away from US influence. It cares not a jot about the poor people of that country. So why do you speak about MY callousness. You have plenty of material in your own backyard.
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 15:06
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
OH for Petes sake!!
You people just dont listen to yourselves.(by the way thank you henry, i do appreciate having conversations with you) Most of you sound like pompous asses. Dropping names (but no sources)going on and on ad nauseum.
You skim over stuff and then just start suffering from diarrhea from the mouth. No country can ever, EVER say that it hasn't done something its not proud of. All countries make their own back room deals for money and power. I have posted before and will post it again:
I truly believe that after 9/11 we got caught with our pants down and that bush used it to go after iraq because Saddam tried to kill his "daddy" (after his daddy was unsuccesful in bombing Saddams house and killed one of his children) Alot of us are very well aware of it. We use our system of protest and government set down by our forefathers to be able to voice our objections. All countries, whether the war is right or wrong will back there troops because they are our kids, our neighbors.
Now I watched the coverage on all the news networks, as well as reuters, those iraqi's werent exactly sayin "oh no we just love Saddams death squads. Please stop."
OH! Right, they were the ones ripping his statues down.
We will defend ourselves as well as any country would. We shouldnt be in Irag, no. But now that its all messed up it would be wrong just to walk off now, without restoring the power, the water the school systems.
As for our country being the only country who has had their hand in the cookie jar ... how many of you watched the weeks of hearings on the food for fuel scandal?
I did. Alot of countries had their hand in that cookie jar, which the food for oil program was an exception to our embargo on their oil sales. Now, I do believe that an embargo is a peace full way of us protesting what a government is doing to its people. So if you boys get your rocks off on half assedly looking at one side of a multi-sided issue, well then why dont you just push the friggin button and get it over with.
Or come up with something new, because this just spreads hate. Not a one of you (except HH) has really bothered to try to understand one damn thing Ive said. No, I dont need to sound like a mensa candidate to have a valid point either.
Let us all just remember that we share this same rock and if we dont find a way to stop bickering and hating, what is going to change????
The definition of insanity: to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results.
If someone believes in God, that should be fine, If they believe in Allah, Buddah, Karma or a damn codfish ... so what??? This is getting worse than a damn chat room. I speak plainly, so what? If somebody feels for those who lost their lives fighting because their country asked them to (whether right or wrong) they did there service. War sucks for everybody, no one ever said that the casualties on the other side deserved any less sorrow. Think before you rant.
I AM AN AMERICAN AND I AM NOT ASHAMED TO BE ONE.
Should a german feel like a peice of shit because he had to serve the nazi's? Should the Jews who worked the crematorium just to live a little longer feel ashamed for trying to survive? JUST STOP IT! People have died for centuries for the name of this and that and believed they were right at that time. We should spend all this intelligence to come up with positive solutions ... however small they may be ... at least it is a start.
I have already started to teach my six year old about hate and what it does to you inside. How it affects others around you and he actually asks better questions and makes better comments than alot of this ...this... vicous, malicousness that goes back and forth.
A global issue is at hand ... violence is escalating all over the world, not just america. We are just a larger target. Negativity begets negativity. I truly thought this was a forum for ideas and exchanges with great minds. I may not be as politically savvy as alot of you but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know a bunch of poop when you step in it.
Joeanna Nee-Who is proud to pray to God, for peace for all ... good, bad or indifference.
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 22:17
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
henry_hart,
According to the way Joeanne Nee sees things,the language we use reveals the degree of anger we harbour within us. Well brother, the quotient of hate you have is astronomical, judging by the tenor of your last post.
You must be on the point of exploding.You are probably the most irrascible SOB that has ever hit a key.
You simply cannot take one iota of criticism as 'pupri' and neocynic have noted. Your torrents of abuse against neocynic's posting reveal you for what you are - an idiot. Yes, two can play at this game of hurling derogatory nouns about.
Joeanne Nee.
You should realize that we all know about the profound wisdom incorporated in the US Constitution but you should also realize that any government is capable of hijacking the levers of power for nefarious ends in any system and then slowly corrupting it, through lies, instilling fear and hate, while being supported by media owned by right wing neocon tycoons such as Richard Murdoch. The ghastly Fox News is an example in the US and in the UK we have other offerings of the Murdoch press, which cater for the lowest possible denominator of thought and sensibility.
Joeanne, wake up. You are not the only one with children who fears for the future.From the viewpoint of many nations, the US now constitutes the biggest danger to world peace and security as it runs wild on its military supremecy.
The US is the most powerful military force in the world and we have seen how it has been used from the time of Vietnam. The US Air Force has been responsible for dropping more bombs on civilians (apart from military targets), than was dropped by the Germans during the Second World War. Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese civilians were killed and for what? Can you say what was achieved.Vietnam resistance was essentially nationalist not Communist.
Isn't it about time you confronted the fact that even the most celebrated democracy can be corrupted. Lyndon Johnson lied to the American people in order to prolong the Vietnam war with the non-existent Gulf of Tonkin 'incident'. George W. Bush did the same over the non-existent connection between 9/11 and Iraq.
Message was edited by: brolly3
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 23:24
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Dear Brolly,
Again, you fail to comprehend what I have written, or maybe you fail to take the time to read what I am saying. I have said on more posts than I care to count that not all decisions made by my government have been right. Please, stop telling me to wake up. I see what is going on, but at least I am smart enough not to believe everything I read. That is why we have public hearings and the right to access documents from our governments closed door meetings. We do have to stay ever viligant and that has been my point, especially about our system of term limits. We all have children Brolly. I am not an idiot thanks.
The hate shows in your insults and the way you pick and choose what to jump on, instead of taking it all in and hearing what someones trying to say.
It was the French who were in Vietnam first, we got information from them that they were communist. I personally never understood why our country was so worried about the communitst in the first place, but I wasn't around at that time. What I said was that my dad was sent over there because his country told him to, and if you really do read whole posts you'll see that I said that alot of us wept for all those who suffered. OH, and by the way, the brits dropped quite a few of their own bombs and sure as hell didnt mind when we dropped ours over germany to help them out.
Now as far as being considered by the world as the scariest and biggest military power? YOU wake up Brolly, all its gonna take is one push of one button from any country that ends it all. Oh, by the way did you miss my post on the size of China's army? Makes us look like little ants buddy.
Again, I have posted this and apparently I will have to say it again:
I truly believe that when 9/11 occured we got caught with our pants down and that Bush used that confusion shock and horror to invade Iraq because he had a personal beef with the guy, who tried to kill his daddy.
I am well aware on lyndon Johnson's screw up. If Kennedy had not have been shot and killed, we would have been withdrawn from that conflict. "shoulda woulda coulda" doesnt help whats already occured. That is why Johnson did not seek re-election. He knew what he had done.
I was taught to question anything I didnt fully understand, which is the same lesson I will teach my child. That way each generation will learn not to be a sheep.
I do have a question for you Brolly:
What country are you from and what is your party affiliation?
Joeanna Nee- a not so stupid woman from Maine
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-01 13:51
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
henry_hart said:
["This particular forum, American Power & the World, attracts all the kooks, cranks, appeasers, terror apologists and intellectual dim bulbs who have a gripe against the U.S. It's fun to bash them and read their flustered blubbers, but if you're looking for intelligent posts, they are few and far between."]
So henry confesses he has nothing better to do with his time than "bash them and read their flusterd blubbers".
What does this says about henry's intelligence and the very limited use to what he puts it. It is eloquent testimony of an extremely stupid individual who can't even perceive that he is admitting that he has no real intellectually profitable interests and can only function at the level of the "kooks, cranks, appeasers, terror apologists and intellectual dim bulbs" that he now shares the thread with.
Henry, don't fret about your stupidity. Us denizens of the OD gutter are proud to be associated with a genuine brother like you.
Submitted on Tue, 2005-05-31 23:43
reply
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Irrelevant:
I hardly expected you to agree so wholeheartedly with my assessment of you and your fellow travelers, but it does my heart good to see you accept your limitations. And by the by, given your minute amount of gray matter, I'm impressed with the use "to what you put it." Keep up the goofy work.
HH
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-01 02:39
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
To Henry Hart:
Thank you for responding to my post.
A recent review of the tone and content of your postings leads me to conclude that my posts are unworthy of your review and comment, as so would my response be unworthy regarding your material.
It may be perhaps more constructive of you to restrict yourself to responding to the posts of others in this forum.
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-01 02:47
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Joeanna Nee,
In answer to your question, I am from Britain and I have no political party affiliation. At the recent UK national
election I voted for the Liberal Democrats, who are the third largest party in terms of seats in the British Parliament.However my vote was one of protest and not because I bought the Liberal Democrat programme for government as contained in their election manifesto.
I simply could not vote for New Labour while Tony Blair is leader and I don't support the present crop of Conservatives, who are far from the 'one nation' variety we have had in the past.This lot played the race card in terms of assylum seekers,refugees and economic migrants, far too much.
I suppose that I am somewhat left of centre on the political spectrum and not on the extreme or far left as such people as henry (hothead) hart, fdbjr and Ttrryosborn assert. I do not believe any political party has a monopoly of the truth on its side and recognize democratic politics as at best a compromise and, at worst, elective dictatorship during the period that a party holds office and power if it gets too large a majority.
In the UK, we have a very biased and unfair electoral system known as the 'first past the post', which results in anomolous results. For example, Tony Blair's 'New Labour Party' only received 22% of the those eligible to vote and 36% of those that did actually vote. So you have a situation in which 64% did not want Tony Blair or New Labour to govern and yet they will do so for four or five years.
We don't have a fixed term parliament and by convention the maximum is five years but the Prime Miniser actually decides when in that time he wants to hold the election - usually when he thinks that he has the best chance of winning. It is not unusual for the Party in power to start giving away 'economic' bribes just prior to an election.
In company with many millions of people I wanted to see the back of Tony Blair for the lies he told prior to the Iraq war and even since.You probably don't know much about UK politics but Blair has lost all credibility. Don't take my word for it, just type Tony Blair into Google and add the words credibility or lies, and you will see what I mean. No doubt henry_hart, fdbjr and Ttrrysoborn will soon arrive as a pack and tell you that Blair won election and that I am wrong about his being a liar. Well as I said, 64% voted against him - that is an indisputable fact. You can look at Google and judge for yourself.
Blair agreed to support Bush in a war against Iraq back in 2002 but he told the British people and parliament, right up to the invasion, that it was possible for Saddam Hussein to avoid an invasion and remain in power. This has been revealed as a blatant lie and he also lied about the intelligence on WMD. Just type into Google the words 'dodgy dossier', and you will see what I mean.
Now whatever one thinks of Blair's reasons for the war, a Prime Minister who lies to parliament and the country to get support for an illegal war, is one who is not fit to lead the country in such dangerous times.The public did not elect a king who is unaccountable but a party political leader, and have the right to know truth from fiction.
I have gone on at some length so that you can get some idea of where I stand politically. Ignore the usual
suspects allegations of my political leanings, as they are so right wing, red necked and bellicose, that they do not like to leave any room on the political spectrum for others.
Oh and I won't apolgize for the number of times this post is edited!
Message was edited by: brolly3
Message was edited by: brolly3
Message was edited by: brolly3
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-01 15:02
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Dear Brolly,
Thank you for you reply. Yes, you are correct in that I do not know how your system of government is run. The only thing I really new was that the Monarchy was just figureheads and that Parliment was the actual functioning decision makers. I did watch Blair on the news, actually. I used to like him until he sided with Bush about going into Iraq. I was quite shocked he got back in, I watched the protests against him.
I am going to need a little patience from you, for an explanation on how the "first past the post" thing works.
Im afraid I am not much for labels and to be quite frank, I wouldn't know what the hell a leftist or rightist was if it crawled up my leg and bit me. That is why I register as an Independent. I am what is called an aggressive woman (translates into stubborn b****) but one that likes to learn, loves to hear the diversities in the people around the world. It helps me to understand more about where they are coming from, to better evolve and further ideas that might bridge these gaps.
I have always been one to wonder why the UN seems to use us as there own personal police force, when we have enough wrong here at home.
I am surprised to hear that the head of your parliment gets to pick when they want to run, that teeters on total control. That is just plain wrong. It does however explain how Margaret Thatcher stayed in as long as she did. I thought people just kept voting her in.
Could you please explain what the names of the parties there are and how many do you have? And just one more annoying question ... what is the house of lords? Is that a party or a place?
Well, I just want to let you know that Mainers aren't really rednecks ... just mainahs as we say it.
Once again Brolly I am an independent thinker, my whole premise has been to stop the pack mentality and have some decent debates. Gives me something to think about besides the wiggles show.(ha ha)
Thank you for you explanations and your patience.
It is truly appreciated.
Joeanna Nee
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-01 16:01
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
henry-hart,
You claim to have proved me wrong. What utter nonsense!
The standard of proof you apply would be thrown out of any court and probably you with it for wasting the court's time.
As for your friend fdbjr, he really enjoys throwing his labels about. I quite like the 'preposterous' epithet.
It's almost as good as the 'hothead' which you admitted you are, when I christened you with it. As for fdbjr, well I haven't come up with a good name for him yet, but as a stopgap, how about cretin.
Message was edited by: brolly3
Submitted on Thu, 2005-06-02 01:13
reply
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Wrong ... yet again, bumbler.
I didn't say I proved you wrong, I said you've been proved wrong. Repeatedly. I recall, off the top of my head, you posting that Howard would surely be defeated in Australia. Wrong. I recall you saying with utmost surety that Bush would fall to Kerry. Wrong. I'm quite sure there are nearly countless other examples, but I have neither time need nor the inclination to dig em up. Suffice to say, merely cursory glances at your posts usually turn up one or two errors -- like your last one did!
HH
Submitted on Thu, 2005-06-02 01:41
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Oh alright already,
First, being a Mainer, you do not runover a dying deer with an suv, you only damage you damn truck. I understand it was a metaphoric story, but quite frankly, to someone who knows alot about deer, if its injured you pull out your gun, or your knife and thats how you put it out of its misery. If indeed it was disemboweled it would have died in less that 30 seconds.
I just finished reading the rest of the posts and truly believe that desecrating the memories of all who fought and lost their lives is an abomination. Those who have died as innocent by standers-or casualties of war-are thought of on this day as well. It is a yearly reminder of what war costs us. Mentally, physically and spiritually. (and before anybody jumps on the spirituality thing ... a codfish could be your spiritual deity, ok this is a nondenominational thing) If we do not remember why we fought and reflect on it losses then we truly will never evolve.
That would get me to scream "push the damn button and get it over with"
Now, as i hold my 5 month old son, I ponder about the ways I should teach him, in hopes that the next generation (if they survive the mess we are all making) wont have to be stuck in the cycle of "im smarter than yoouuuu" so therefor am superior ... which starts the whole damn cycle over again.
When my six year old calls himself stupid, I say to him "NO! There are no stupid people, just alot of people who know different things."
My Aunt, who in some bizarre line of thinking, told me about how her husband berated a woman at a drive through because she got his order wrong and that she was too stupid to even do that job right. She said to him that as people of higher intelligence it was their duty to be patient and understanding.
My mouth almost dropped. So, I said to her calmly, why is it then that us simple people are so much happier than you smart people. OH, and just because she works at a fast food place, what makes you think she doesnt have a degree in something? Kinda pompous if you ask me.
Her mouth did drop. She truly believed she was being charitable and kind. Let us not forget that all people have intelligence, it might come in different forms, but we are all intelligent.
Just food for thought
Joeanna
Submitted on Thu, 2005-06-02 13:51
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Spring is upon us here in the West. The grass grows green, and in the light of the full moon the warm winds of a coming summer caress the leaves of the trees, sushing newborns to sleep, their young parents to dream, and the old to drowse. We hold our loved ones close, our minds filled with domestic tribulations, the laundry, dirty dishes, or a stroller needing repair. Our homes are quiet and perhaps it is only the soft tock of a mantlepiece clock which tells us time flows, as does our hopes that we will continue to prosper, that our young will grow stronger and smarter, and our lives as families, as neighbourhoods, and yes, as a nation, mature and wisen with each day's sunrise.
But there is a war on. In our names, as we sleep with our children pressed near, in another land, far away both in mind and physically, a terror is being consumated. Men and women plucked from our very neighbourhoods are busy with murder. They are blowing up homes, bombing neighbourhoods, shooting parents and torturing innocents. All in our name, all paid with our money, and all ordered by a military commanded by our politicans. Our basic humanity, from which springs the very love we have for each other here at home, demands that we ask why. We hear it implore us in our hearts every time we hear of another checkpoint "mistake", see another family's children crouched at soldiers' boots in the glare of a flashlight, weeping, their pretty dresses splashed with the blood of their parents.
We need not answer that question. We can cast it out of our minds as if it were nothing more than a passing pang of pain, a fleeting discomfort that casts a momentary shadow over our own homes, our children, and the happiness we find here, an unwelcome intrusion. Some of us have ready-made answers as an antidote: the War on Terror, 9/11, "better there than here", and for a smaller few, because we resent the shadows, the threat they may pose to our life and loved ones, we hate "them", and actually revel in the scenes of murder and mayhem we rarely see on our television sets. Others would have you think the very question itself was unamerican, was itself a stab in the back of our kin fighting in Iraq, and all discussion of the merits of this war as treason.
All of this spares us the chore of thinking out an answer, personal to ourselves, to the question: why. We fear to think too deeply, for those who think deeply, feel deeply. And for those who feel deeply, there is the pain of failing to act, of covering our hearts and shielding our eyes with the hypocrisy of conformity. For some of us, it is too much to expect us to figure out the world as it is, to figure where our place is, and what we owe to and should expect from others. It is hard enough just within the confines of our families, where we may find personal wars being waged. To understand our place as a country in this world may be beyond our ken, to understand what we owe to the world, and what we ought to expect from the world may require a level of thought and concern most us may not be capable of assuming. To those who shrink from such a task, -if only because the bomb that explodes in a home in Fallujah, the bullet that kills a child in Tikrit, or the tank that crushes a family sedan in Baghdad, -if only because all of these has your name on it as an American, you are compelled to answer as if you were standing before your very God and the victims of your weapons.
Why this war? To answer with thoughtless slogans, which, when challenged, dissolve into the thin air from they came only implicates the speaker in contempt for reason, for the truth, thus furthering the agenda of the enemies of reason and truth. Yet far worse than the war itself, far worse than the partisans, the shouting boosters with their flags and anthems, far worse than the careerists in the media who betray a tradition of truth-telling, it is the silence. If you listen carefully to your television or your radio, or read your newspaper, you can barely hear it. It lies in the questions not asked, the pictures not shown, and the liars not challenged. It blooms and holds hostage the tongues of many who know better, in our Senate, in our media, and in our churches. Political fear is its name, and Martin Luther King once quoted the Rabbi of Berlin who, in relation to the horrors of Nazi Germany during his time, said that even those terrible things paled in terms of shame and disgust to those who stood mute. "A great people which had created a great civilization had become a nation of silent onlookers. They remained silent in the face of hate, in the face of brutality, and in the face of mass murder."
Abu Ghraib stands at the epitome of what America has become. It is nothing but silence that prevents the persecution of those ultimately responsible, as it is silence that allows it to continue to this very day. And it will be silence that will permit America to lose its founding principles, and founder on the rocks of militarism and authoritarianism. Abu Ghraib is a slope made slippery with the blood of innocents. It is time for us to break the silence, protest the war and the warmongers, lest America lose her footing and slide into a shadow far deeper and wider than any terrorist could cast. That shadow will darken all of us, in our homes, our neighbourhoods, and indeed, the very futures of our children.
Submitted on Sat, 2005-06-04 06:40
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Dear Neocynic,
Do you honestly believe that this is the very first war ever fought for the wrong reasons? Or the only country that was led by its own leaders for the wrong reason?
Aside from you lovely composition, as a diligent observer of the human condition, all people need to feel safe when all hell breaks loose somewhere else. We, as americans, have our own issues with gang violence running rampant across our country. So, no...not everyone sleep quietly and comfortably as that silent tocking because the sounds of screecing tires and ricocheting bullets mask that sound.
There is more than just one war going on. There is just one that is being more publicized than others. If it were true that we fear to think too deeply than forums such as this would not exist. (we would be to shallow to comprehend the idea)
The wars that are occuring in other countries are not all our weapons. I dont remember the AK-47 being an american made gun. We, in all countries are to blame neo.
We all have to stand and judged one day. For some, it might be every day, whether it be in the flashbacks they carry or their childs eyes that doesnt understand why daddy is screamng "Charlie's coming! Charlie's coming" as you run and hide because your not sure if he remembers that your his kid and not a vietcon.
No one comes out of this unscathed, and your rather limited thinking that its just an american thing. The Russians fought with the afghanistan people for ...what ..like over nine years before the Russians finally stopped?
How do you think the Croats that were raped by the Serbs are feelin right about now? Or the Ethiopians, whos own military takes what little food they had to continue their own guerilla warfare are feeling right about now?
And as for you last paragraph, I would really ( and I hate to say this) what drugs are you on? Humiliation, yeah the soldiers did that, killed anybody ..no. Have they've been prosecuted, oh yeah. As for the history of Abu Ghraib it was originally used by Saddam for torture and slaying of his own people. This facility, due to the stupidity of some soldiers has been closed down and inquiries are being made in a commision to follow it UP the chain of comman are being demanded. As well as, the truth about the Kuran desecration being brouth forth.
(which I believe is wrong for destruction of a holy work, but wonder why it is ok for people to burn our Flag or bibles read by people over here? Isnt that the same thing?)
Last but not least, did you miss any of the footage of the widescale protesting about the war? Or any of the editorials? Read any of the stories that the journalist risked their lives to bring to local and world wide news media?
I can even access the Iraqi news on my computer. (that is how I saw the heinous beheading of Nick Berg by accident. An image that is indelible upon my mind)
So, unless your only staring out your window hun, there is this awesome place called you local library. In that building, they have access to just about every type of reference material you could want. They even have the internet.
So, forgive me if I dont see you point in this story of yours. When my dad came home from Vietnam, I payed a high price for those flashbacks. And that, my dear sir(or madaam), was a very wrong war.
Joeanna
Submitted on Sat, 2005-06-04 12:00
reply
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Neocynic, could I ask a small favor?
The puerile, purple "Spring is upon us ..." prose has been foisted on us now in three separate threads. Could you desist? It was hard enough reading it the first time. Maybe you could write some original pretentious-sounding dreck.
Thanks.
HH
Submitted on Mon, 2005-06-06 23:32
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
One Silver Lining to Successful Future Suicide Bombings in Baghdad...
WASHINGTON — A contingent of conservatives talk radio hosts is headed to Iraq this month on a mission to report "the truth" about the war: American troops are winning, despite headlines to the contrary.
The "Truth Tour" has been pulled together by the conservative Web cast radio group Rightalk.com and Move America Forward, a non-profit conservative group backed by a Republican-linked public relations firm in California.
"The reason why we are doing it is we are sick and tired of seeing and hearing headlines by the mainstream media about our defeat in Iraq," Melanie Morgan, a talk radio host (search) for KSFO Radio in San Francisco and co-chair of Move America Forward, said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161463,00.html
Submitted on Wed, 2005-07-06 01:50
reply
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
I, for one, am not shocked to see that the abhorrent Neocynic is advocating not only the deaths of innocent civilians for the vast crime of not agreeing with her ... but also of the misguided bomber and whatever other innocents might be standing around.
Repugnant.
HH
Submitted on Wed, 2005-07-06 03:13
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
henry-hart is at it again.
["The puerile, purple "Spring is upon us ..." prose has been foisted on us now in three separate threads. Could you desist? It was hard enough reading it the first time. Maybe you could write some original pretentious-sounding dreck".]
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, as the saying goes. If you can't stand neocynic's 'dreck', then don't read it. It's as simple as that!
As for originality, when have you ever provided any?
Submitted on Tue, 2005-06-07 00:04
reply
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Idiot-boy:
How can I help reading it? Neofraud's posting it in every thread.
How often do they undo the strings on your straitjacket to allow you to post? Too often, I think. I'm a little worried about the security at that place you're housed. If you escape, you may hurt yourself, or others.
Concernedly,
Henry
Submitted on Tue, 2005-06-07 00:13
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Hothead henry_hart,you have actually excelled your previous displays of showing a complete lack of logic. You say in relation to neocynic "How can I help reading it? Neofraud's posting it in every thread".
Now hothead, have you no eyes! Neocynic's name appears in the column that indicates from whom the post is from, so it is perfectly possible for you to avoid reading them. It would thus be LOGICAL to conclude that you wish to read his posts. I will not go as far as to say that you like what you read but you certainly seem attracted to them like a moth to a flame.
["How often do they undo the strings on your straitjacket to allow you to post? Too often, I think. I'm a little worried about the security at that place you're housed. If you escape, you may hurt yourself, or others".]
Hothead, when you try to be funny, as in the above statement - you are not. When you don't try, such as with usual 'contributions', you succeed. Perverse isn't it.
Message was edited by: brolly3
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 01:45
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
brolly3:
What lies at the root of the frustration of the pro-war posters is a fundamental irrationality. The pro-war advocates here are being "patriotic" only insofar as it merely means supporting the policies of their country: America, love it or leave it.
They support Bush's policies because thay are also the official policies of the United States of America. They believe in America, they believe that when US troops are torturing or dying, for whatever policy reasons (good or bad), as "patriots" they must support the President, the Country, the Flag.
It is a faith-based patriotism, and here we find the strong similarities between otherwise good and intelligent people, -following and supporting policy that they support only, only because of their belief, -and Christian Evangelicals (the Taliban of the Christian faith).
They are NOT necons, because they are true believers in patriotism, love for one's "country", which in a sense, is as irrational as a love for Jesus Christ. Both are fundamentally irrational, and the true believers are the first to tell you that, -with pride.
Thus, when confronted with facts, they retreat with fear to moronic sloganeering ("freedom and democracy"), insults, and irrelevant red herrings.
They love their country like others love Jesus Christ.
Message was edited by: Neocynic
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 02:38
reply
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
"I tried marijuana once. I did not inhale." -- Candidate Bill Clinton
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. . . . Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." -- President Bill Clinton
"I am going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." -- President Bill Clinton.
"I have strongly opposed federal funding of abortions. In my opinion, it is wrong to spend federal funds for what is arguably the taking of a human life. It is my deep personal conviction that abortion is wrong. Let me assure you that I share your belief that innocent life must be protected and I have an open mind on how to further this goal." -- Al Gore in a letter to a constituent, 8/22/1984. (In NRLC files.)
"I have always supported Roe v. Wade. I have always supported a woman's right to choose. And let me say that if you entrust me with the presidency, I will guarantee that a woman's right to choose is protected." -- Al Gore in a debate with Bill Bradley televised 1/26/00
"There is no controlling legal authority that says this was in violation of law." -- Vice President Al Gore, seven times (in one form or another), White House news conference
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- Candidate John Kerry
And now ...
"There is absolutely no harm that you can point to that this war was ex post facto justified to prevent was more than the harm it has itself now created." -- Neocynic
"The 'elected' government is a fiction, as was its 'election'." -- Neocynic
Sensing a pattern here? The lies, self-deception and hypocrisy are not relegated to politicians alone. Is it endemic to liberals? It's hard to believe someone could say such things with a straight face, and evidently, with "conviction."
HH
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 03:43
reply
Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Neocharlatan opened this thread with a prayer. Now she seems all upset about religion. Two consecutive rants referencing "faith-based patriots," "Christian Evangelicals," "Christian faith," "true believers," and a couple of references to "Jesus Christ."
I think you need to make up your mind, hon. People who write prayers and then go on anti-religion tirades might be looked on as conflicted ... or schizophrenic .... or psychotic. Were you abused by a priest, perhaps? Made to watch televangelists 24/7 as a child? I think you might need to join the addled Bumbershoot for a nice loooong rest.
HH
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 03:53
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Well, far be in for me to interfere with this malay of word exchanges, but I was just re-reading this thread. I originally thought it was to honor all those(not just the US)who have died serving their countries. My father served in vietnam in the early 60's.
In so far as I can surmise, this post has nothing really to do with those who have given their lives because the respective leader's told them too. I've read some fanciful writings-which I think was suppose to be thought provoking (no offense, but your metaphor of people avoiding a disemboweled deer that you hit didn't quite do it for me.)Then some more metaphoric slop that we americans are sleeping like babies in this milk and honey land, then there are the responses that we are spreading that milk and honey slop to a country that really doesnt want us there. Kurzai, himself, wants control over our military while they are there. Wonder why he would ask? Bush wont agree to it, but if I was Kurzai, I think I would want more say about a huge military force from a foreign land from running amok and alienating his people. We've done our job, Saddam was found hiding in a hole holding onto wads of cash after ditching his family. Great, so why not let Kurzai have a greater say on how we act over in his country, since he is an Iraqi and knows his own people and culture. Fix the essentials and get our people home. War like these does psychologically damaging things to human beings, and while that particular human is holding an m-16, I would want to get them home as soon as possible.
But, I digress, I just thought that this was a way for all of us to say thank you for giving up your life, leaving your families to fight and possibly loose your life and appreciate those who fought(whether the war was right or wrong)and came home. Is it really that difficult for us to take time to say thanks? You served your country and its citizens. A very simple thing. I have to live with the nightmare my Dad brought home from a war that was wrong, but he did what his country told him to, he was drafted and he went. If you really want a story Neo I got one for ya' and it has no metaphoric meaning, it isnt ficticous: My Dad dealt with the war by drinking a shit load of budweiser, mom worked nights, at the age of six he decided how to teach me how to disembowel a human being in two different ways-one being instant and the other gave the one cut a chance to hold his guts in and possibly live. "its all in the cut joe" he said. I also got taught how to instantly kill a human being by shoving their nose bridge into their brain. I was taught alot more but it gets more graphic.
Now, neo how do you think I relate to other human beings? I cant. I am a female that has been taught how to fight viciously, and cant relate to other women who arent like me. I cant be frilly, I cant relate. So, please save your stories for someone who wasnt driving by a dying deer, cuz most likely I probably would have jumped out of my SUV, slit its throat and gutted its ponch right there on the spot, threw it in the back of my vehicle skinned it and butchered it.
The next time you want to relate a story that no one is paying attention to war, and we are all sleeping as snug as a bug in a rug, go talk to Dr. Suess. (who by the way was a man who had no children and was unable to feel comfortable around them, how's that for irony?)
A non combative survivor of a very wrong war.
Joeanna
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 11:07
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
To: Joeanna
Who is "Kurzai"? You must be referring to Afghanistan Presient Karzai. As for Iraq, your suggestions are reasonable.
Your personal experience is an example of the "collateral" damage caused by wrongful war: guilt. It causes neurosis or worse in those both involved in the war and the people who love them. The cure for guilt is to oppose "wrong war" occurring in your generation, -and you will find a personal peace. That is the least you owe to the memory of your dad, who was compelled to serve in one, and most importantly, it's what you owe yourself.
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 14:18
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Neo hun,
Guilt??? guilt for what? Im not for the war in Iraq! Angry, sure. what drugs are you on? I never said my Dad was dead, just that he served in a war that we should have never been into, but due to the untimely death of Kennedy, Johnson just kept sending more young men, mere teens actually, to their death.
You have no idea what it was like for us as a family to deal with THAT nightmare. How many kids do you know that know how to disembowel a human being in two different ways, or 14 quick and easy ways to kill a human being? This is a legacy that spreads like a virus. Every person who comes back from that war hopefully wont spread the joys of my childhood to their children, and the children of the other countries who are learning to pick up weapons and learning to shoot and kill.
I really think you should probably re-read my posts. Im an extremely blunt woman so I dont know how you could have gotten out of them that I am all gung-ho about the war in Iraq.?
Clarify please.
Joeanna
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 14:47
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
To: Joeanna
When I said "guilt", I was referring to the personal guilt of your father in having participated in the immoral Vietnam war, and our collective guilt as Americans for having waged that war, and indeed, the Iraq War, to which I am well aware that you are opposed. My sugestion is that you may be able to better cope with what you call your "NIGHTMARE" by becoming actively involved in the anti-war movement.
Submitted on Wed, 2005-06-08 16:27
reply Re: Memorial Day Prayer
Neocynic,
In another thread I’d just cautioned another that they needed to be very careful in their lecturing of what I should or should not do/feel regarding very personal and private emotional matters.
The “collective guilt” is an interesting definition in our attempt to name what a society/group/tribe/species feels in reflection of a war. Neocynic, I take that you perhaps think that with some wars, “guilt” for participation doesn’t play in. In that other thread I just mentioned, the writer most definitely had those thoughts about WWII. My guess would be that you would hand the |
