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Secularism confronts Islam

The vigorous debate about Muslims in Europe and their relationship to the west's understanding of itself needs to be informed by an understanding of history's duality and the present's fluidity, says Olivier Roy.


Islam's encounter with the west is as old as Islam itself. The first Muslim minorities living under western Christian domination date back to the 11th century (in Sicily). Yet the second half of the 20th century witnessed a distinctively new phenomenon: the massive, voluntary settlement in western societies of millions of Muslims coming from Muslim societies across the middle east, the Indian subcontinent, Turkey, Africa, and southeast Asia. The west has also witnessed the development of an indigenous trend of religious conversion (as in the case of the Nation of Islam).

And yet, while a Muslim population has definitively taken root in the west, the question of its integration remains open, especially in western Europe, where there is an overlap between Islam and work-driven immigration - an overlap that is not to be found in the United States. Socio-economic problems, cultural issues, and political tensions related to terrorism or the conflicts in the middle east converge around the question: is Islam compatible with the west?

Of course, this question rests on an essentialist worldview, according to which there is one Islam, on the one hand, and one western world, on the other hand. From that perspective, the west is allegedly defined by a set of values (freedom of expression, democracy, separation of church and state, human rights, and, especially, women's rights). But a problem immediately arises: are these Christian values? Is the opposition between Islam and the west derived from the fact that the west is Christian? Or is it rather because the west is secularised and no longer locates religion at the heart of its self-definition? Is it Christianity or secularism that makes the west so distinct?

Olivier Roy is a professor at the L'Ecole de Haute Etudes de Sciences Sociales in Paris (Ehess). Among his books are The Failure of Political Islam (Harvard University Press, 1994), The New Central Asia: The Creation of Nations (New York University Press, 2000), Globalized Islam (Columbia University Press, 2004), (with Mariam Abou Zahab) Islamist Networks: The Afghan-Pakistan Connection (Columbia University Press, 2004), and Secularism Confronts Islam (Columbia University Press, 2007)

Also by Olivier Roy in openDemocracy:

"The end of history and the long march of secularisation" (16 May 2006)

"Islamism's failure, Islamists' future" (30 October 2006)

This article is extracted from the preface to Secularism Confronts Islam. openDemocracy is grateful to Columbia University Press and Olivier Roy for permission
A family feud

The relation between secularism and Christianity is complex. Either one defines the west in Christian terms, or one defines it in reference to the philosophy of the Enlightenment, human rights, and democracy that developed against the Catholic church (through first the Protestant reformation, then the Enlightenment, and finally a secular and democratic ideal). If the Catholic church has always fought secularism and the separation of church and state (at least until the beginning of the 20th century), Protestantism has played a more complex role by defending a sort of religious civil society in which the separation of church and state is seen as a necessary condition for a genuine religious revival. Secularisation therefore proceeds differently in Catholic and Protestant societies - against faith in the former, along with faith in the latter - to such an extent that it is difficult to talk about the "west".

Contemporary western societies, however, are, in fact, secularised, either because the separation of church and state is a constitutional principle (the United States); because civil society no longer defines itself through faith and religious practice (the United Kingdom, Germany, the Scandinavian countries); or because these two forms of secularism converge and reinforce each other, thus giving birth to what the French call laïcité. And yet when one opposes the west and Islam, it is by putting forward the Christian origins of western culture or, on the contrary, by emphasising its secularism. In other words, when we question Islam's capacity to become "westernised", we are referring to two different forms of westernisation: Christianisation and secularisation.

True, things are more complex, and it would be easy to show that western secularism actually has a Christian origin - as I do in my book, Secularism Confronts Islam. But it is interesting to see that the critique of Islam is today a rallying-point for two intellectual families that have been opposed to each other so far: those who think that the west is first and foremost Christian (and who, not that long ago, considered that the Jews could hardly be assimilated) and those who think that the west is primarily secular and democratic. In other words, the Christian right and the secular left are today united in their criticism of Islam.

A debate of abstraction

But if Christianity has been able to recast itself as one religion among others in a secular space, why would this be impossible for Islam? Two arguments are usually summoned to make this case: the first is theological and says that the separation between religion and politics is foreign to Islam; the second is cultural and posits that Islam is more than a religion: it is a culture. Both arguments are addressed in Secularism Confronts Islam.

But this theoretical debate, which thrives on op-ed pieces and talk-shows, is increasingly solved in the practice of Muslims themselves. The experience of everyday life as a minority brings Muslims to develop practices, compromises, and considerations meant to cope with a secularism that imposes itself on them. This does not mean that Islam has never experienced secularism but only that, with the exception of a few isolated thinkers, it never felt the need to think about it. Today, both life-conditions in the west and the domination of the western model through the process of globalisation compel many Muslims to relate explicitly to this form of secularism, somewhat urgently and under the pressure of political events. This reflection spans a very wide intellectual spectrum that goes from what I call neo-fundamentalism to liberal positions, proceeding through all kinds of more or less enlightened conservatism.

Unfortunately, the paradigms and models mobilised in the western debate over Islam hardly reflect the real practices of Muslims. While the political debate over the potential danger allegedly represented by Muslims is more or less inspired by the intellectual debate about the "clash of civilisations", the help of sociology (that is, the concrete analysis of Muslim practices) is hardly sought even though sociology is at pains to grasp the concrete forms of religiosity that characterise the practice of Islam within immigrant communities. One must therefore abandon the current models in order to understand how it is possible to practice one's faith as a Muslim in a secularised western context. And one quickly realises then that Muslims tend to find themselves in a position that is closer to that of the born-again Christians or the Haredi Jews than to the position of a stranger.

A model conflict

So far, the west has managed its Muslim population by mobilising two models: multiculturalism, usually associated with English-speaking countries (the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada) and northern Europe, and the assimilationist model, specific to France.

Multiculturalism supposes that Islam as a religion is embedded in a distinct culture that maintains itself from one generation to the next. One can be a good citizen and at the same time identify primarily with a culture that is not the dominant one. In other words, the citizen's relation to the nation can be mediated by a communitarian sense of belonging.

In the assimilationist model (the official term is "integration"), access to citizenship (which turns out to be relatively easy) means that individual cultural backgrounds are erased and overridden by a political community, the nation, that ignores all intermediary communitarian attachments (whether based on race or on ethnic or religious identities), which are then removed to the private sphere. As was declared in the French national assembly during the vote that granted full citizenship to French Jews in 1791: "They must be granted everything as individuals and nothing as a nation" (in the sense of community).

Nothing could be more opposed than the multicultural and assimilationist models: the French consider Anglo-Saxon multiculturalism either as the destruction of national unity or as an instrument of ghettoisation, while assimilationism is perceived abroad as the expression of an authoritarian, centralised state that refuses to recognise minority rights, when it does not infringe on human rights.

A recast relationship

Yet the tensions that have troubled western societies since 11 September 2001 show that both these models are in crisis. In France, many young Muslims complain that theirs is a second-class citizenship and that they are still the victims of racism, while they are integrated in terms of language and education and accept laïcité. Moreover, also in France, young born-again Muslims demand to be recognised as believers in the public space (by wearing a veil, if they are girls). At the same time, the increasing radicalisation of a fraction of Muslim youth in the United Kingdom and in the Netherlands has led to a shift in public opinion in these countries, whereby the multicultural model is called into question and accused of encouraging "separatism".

Also in openDemocracy on Europe's struggles with and over faith:

Patrick Weil, "A nation in diversity: France, Muslims and the headscarf" (25 March 2004)

Gilles Kepel, "Europe's answer to Londonistan" (24 August 2005)

Tariq Modood, "Remaking multiculturalism after 7/7" (29 September 2005)

openDemocracy
, "Muslims and Europe: a cartoon confrontation" (6 February 2006) - a symposium

Roger Scruton, "The great hole of history" (11 September 2006)

Michael Walsh, "The Regensburg address: reason amid certainty" (20 September 2006)

Faisal Devji, "Between Pope and Prophet" (26 September 2006)

Tina Beattie, "Veiling the issues: a distractive debate" (24 October 2006)

Ehsan Masood, "British Muslims: ends and beginnings" (31 October 2006)

Faisal Devji, "Epistles of moderation" (18 October 2007)

As a matter of fact, both multiculturalism and assimilationism are in crisis for similar reasons: both posit the existence of an intrinsic link between religion and culture. Keeping one's religion also means keeping one's culture. Multiculturalism therefore implies that religion remains embedded in a stable cultural background, and assimiliationism implies that integration, by definition, leads to the secularisation of beliefs and behaviours, since all cultural backgrounds disappear.

But the problem is that today's religious revival - whether under fundamentalist or spiritualistic forms - develops by decoupling itself from any cultural reference. It thrives on the loss of cultural identity: the young radicals are indeed perfectly "westernised". Among the born-again and the converts (numerous young women who want to wear the veil belong to these categories), Islam is seen not as a cultural relic but as a religion that is universal and global and reaches beyond specific cultures, just like evangelicalism or Pentecostalism. And this loss of cultural identity is the condition both for integration and for new forms of fundamentalism. Whether Muslim, Christian, or Jewish, religious revivalism raises the question of the place of religion in the public sphere. The debates about prayers in school, the display of the Ten Commandments in courthouses, or the creation of an eruv following the request of Haredi Jews to privatise public space on Shabbat show that the recasting of the relation between the religious and the public sphere is not specific to Islam.

A French exception

Why, then, pay so much attention to French laicite, which until now seemed to be an exception? There is today a convergence of the various debates taking place in western countries: tellingly, they focus on the apparel worn by some Muslim women (prohibition of the headscarf in French high schools, increasingly vocal critique of the burqa in the United Kingdom and in the Netherlands). The real issue here is indeed the articulation of religious identity within the public sphere and therefore the question of secularism. This debate started in France in 1989 and was continued in the United Kingdom in 2006, following a newspaper article criticising a constituent's wearing of the niqab (face-veil) by the then leader of the House of Commons, Jack Straw.

Is France an exception, or does it represent a real alternative to multiculturalism? Here lies the interest of studying the French model. From a historical point of view, there is indeed a French exception: France may be the only democracy that has fought religion in order to impose a state-enforced secularism. In France, laïcité is an exacerbated, politicised, and ideological form of western secularism that has developed on two levels:

* A very strict separation of church and state, against the backdrop of a political conflict between the state and the Catholic church that resulted in a law regulating very strictly the presence of religion in the public sphere (1905). This is what I call legal laïcité

* An ideological and philosophical interpretation of laïcité that claims to provide a value system common to all citizens by expelling religion into the private sphere. I call this ideological laicite: today, it leads the majority of the secular left to strike an alliance with the Christian right against Islam.

Laïcité therefore defines national cohesion by asserting a purely political identity that confines to the private sphere any specific religious or cultural identities. Outside France, this very offensive and militant laïcité is perceived as excessive, and even undemocratic, since it violates individual freedom. It is regularly denounced in the annual report of the United States state department on religious freedom in the world (not only because of the prohibition of the Muslim veil but also because of the restrictions placed on the activities of sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists).

Yet, over a short period of time, the initial hostility of European multiculturalist countries toward the French model has turned into a renewed interest: what if the French were right? A sizeable number of countries that have embraced multiculturalism so far are about to restrict the wearing of the Islamic veil (the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Belgium, Germany). This interest in laicite is primarily negative: it stems from the crisis (from the death, I would even argue) of multiculturalism.

If the multicultural model has failed, then one should look at the alternative represented by the French model. But is French laïcité a solution? How does it work? Isn't it too specific to the French context? How can one imagine both the national cohesion of western societies and the development, beyond specific cultures, of "faith communities" based on individual and voluntary choices, which, however, put forward their specific agendas? Communitarianism and individualism go hand in hand in these faith communities.

The redefinition of the relations between religion and politics is a new challenge for the west, and not only because of Islam. Islam is a mirror in which the west projects its own identity crisis. We live in a post-culturalist society, and this post-culturalism is the very foundation of the contemporary religious revival.

Managing these new forms of religiosity is a challenge for the west as a whole. It is also a task to which Secularism Confronts Islam intends to contribute - by drawing the lessons from the French debate, but only to resituate it in the general context of the relations between Islam and the west.

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Olivier Roy, Secularism Confronts Islam (Columbia University Press, 2007)

 
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ianniscarras said:



Fri, 2007-10-26 09:57
Oliver Roy is always interesting and frequently mistaken. The multicultural model may indeed have its weaknesses, but it has the tremendous advantage that it furthers a form of tolerance that is a overarching good in and of itself. What is more, such differences as exist between different religions in a society provide an extremely useful balance to a form of totalitarian democracy in which only what the majority believes is acceptable. I am not convinced that secular, even democratic, totalitarian attitudes are less objectionable that their religious variety. In this sense the presence of divergent religious communities with their own distinctive voices in the public or even political space of European societies provides a break on the institution that has provided the greater form of intolerance during the course of our "Dark Continents" last century, and that is the overreaching and overly powerful state apparatus itself. If a diversity of religious voices in the public sphere can help limit that behemoth, their contribution is much greater than the difficulties they may or may not cause with objectionable views on any particular issue. Iannis Carras, Athens, Greece.
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intermedusa said:



Sat, 2007-10-27 08:25
ISLAM IS ISLAMO - FASCISM THE EVIL INSANITY THAT IS ISLAM By, Larry Houle www.godofreason.com intermedusa@yahoo.com There is no Islamic fundamentalism, Islamo – fascism, political Islam, Islamic terrorists, Islamic militants, jihadists, Wahhabism, radical Islam who have hijacked the religion. There has been no hijacking. These demented souls are following exactly the teachings of the Koran – they are following in the footsteps of their founder – the man of evil – Muhammad. In the end – IT’S ALL ABOUT ISLAM. Islam is a barbaric, sexist, violent ideology (not a religion) that worships a pagan god (Allah) and women are oppressed under Islam. How could any reasonable person be ‘proud’ to follow a man who was a pedophile, endorser of clitoridectomy, slave trader, rapist, polygamist, punched his child bride and endorsed whipping/beating women and ploughing them like fields, stoned women to death, flogged his slave women for fornication while he had sex with slaves himself, raped his slaves, propositioned women and passed them round to friends, denied women equal inheritance, or equality under the law etc forever and abused and denigrated them in every way--not to mention his general sadism to others, mass murder, amputations, beheading, flogging, thievery, pillaging, lying, megalomania---unending horror. All Muslims believe the Koran is the divine word of God – the laws of God - that God authored the Koran and a copy of the Koran is in heaven. The Koran remains for all Muslims, not just "fundamentalists," the uncreated word of God Himself. It is valid for all times and places; its ideas are absolutely true and beyond all criticism. To question it is to question the very word of God, and hence blasphemous. A Muslim's duty is to believe it and obey its divine commands. This means that all teachings of the Koran are the Laws of God and must be obeyed without question. A Muslim has the full right granted by God to do the following to infidels: Infidels can be murdered by Muslims as a ETERNAL LAW OF GOD. Not only can they all be murdered but the wives and daughters of the murdered infidels can be taken as booty, raped, and then sold as slaves. That’s right - God permits the raping of female slaves. Indeed in Islam - rape is not a only a sexual weapon – it is a weapon of war. Having murdered the woman’s man, Muslims can now - sanctioned by the law of God complete their final humiliation and domination of her body. Her sons can be sold into slavery. If there is any doubt as to the boy’s age of puberty - Muslims can pull down their pants and inspect their genital area for hairs. Even the slightest sign of hair growth means that these young men can be taken and beheaded. These infidel women can then be bred like cattle and their off spring sold for profit. As an ETERNAL LAW OF GOD, Muslims can then loot and pillage the property of the murdered infidels, and must share 1/5 of the booty obtained from the sale of boys and women and the proceeds of looting with God. Muslims can own slaves as an ETERNAL LAW OF GOD. Slavery has been an integral institutionalized part of Islam since it’s creation by Muhammad. Muhammad owned 40 slaves. Muhammad was allowed by a ETERNAL LAW OF ALLAH to rape his slaves ALL THIS EVIL ARE THE LAWS OF GOD AS SET DOWN IN THE KORAN. Not only that but righteous Muslims who slay and are slain in the service of God can ascend as martyrs to the evil sexually depraved Islamic Paradise of eternal hard - ons and virgins who re - generate as virgins after each sex act. THIS IS THEIR ETERNAL REWARD FOR OBEYING THESE EVIL LAWS OF GOD. What I have described are not sins or crimes against the Laws of God - THEY ARE THE LAWS OF GOD. Ask yourself the following questions: How can any Normal, rational, reasonable person read the Koran with it’s language of pure hate, terror, violence – a blue print of murder, war, slaughter and not immediately realize that these are not the words/teachings of any God – not the teachings of any God - The Creator of the Universe - a God of Peace and Goodness but the words and teachings of a 7th century Arab chieftain – Muhammad. Slavery is one of the most evil and vile institutions ever created by humanity. Slavery is an integral institution central to Islam. As a Muslim you can kill non – Muslims, take their wives and daughters as sex slaves, rape them at will, loot and pillage, sell the sons and women and daughters into slavery and then MUST share the immoral proceeds with God. Can you imagine such evil insanity? To any rational, normal person reading these Kornic verses (and these are just a small sample of the 1000’s and 1000.s of the total teachings of hate, terror, cruelty, depravity etc that are Islam.) the claim by Muslims that they are reading the words, teachings, laws of ALLAH is insanity. How can you be a normal person and believe in a religion that preaches a Paradise of big breasted, big eyed sexual nymphs called Hurs that you can molest with eternal hard ons for all eternity in the presence of God who teaches you how to engage in orgies, group sex etc. How can you be normal and believe that by fulfilling Kornic teaching 9:111- “Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain” you will go to this demented sexual whorehouse of God and not directly to hell and damnation. 9:111 is the teaching that has been used by Muhammad and his lieutenants to mobilize the suicide bombers, the beheaders, the jihadists to kill and slaughter millions. An estimated 270,000,000 people have been murdered by Islam because of 9:111 over the past 1400 years. No ALLAH would ever teach 9:111 for if ALLAH gave such a law He would be the greatest killer in all the universe – not an ALLAH of love and peace and goodness but a mass murderer on the scale of a Hitler or Stalin or Muhammad. 9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. 9:29 is the declaration of war as a law of ALLAH against the infidels. The LAW OF WAR is permanent and will not end until all the infidels are murdered or pay a subrogation tax or convert to Islam. This is criminal. Again and again – this is not ALLAH’s law – this is Muhammad’s law. There is no way you can claim to be a peace loving Muslim and leave this evil in the Koran. 9:50 When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them No God who is God would ever teach the following words of violence, war, terror. You can hear Muhammad yelling at his followers – “ Slay the Idoltars” giving instructions of war – “ lie in wait for them in every ambush” Do you think God, Creator of the universe would order murder and micro manage these murders telling Muhammad how to kill his prey. Muhammad gave these instructions – “lie in ambush.” All the Kornic teachings are the teachings of Muhammad. He created the ALLAH of the Koran. Muhammad invented ALLAH, and staged the revelations to give him authority over his followers and justification to war against the neighboring tribes of so called idoltars (pagan Arabs) and Jews and Christians – the first infidels that faced the murderous onslaught of this killer and murderous conquering ideology. When Muhammad spoke, he was speaking the word of ALLAH – the laws of ALLAH - that had to be obeyed without question. How could the word of ALLAH be challenged. By morphing into ALLAH and His messenger, Muhammad set up the perfect totalitarian system whereby his rule could not be challenged. MUHAMMAD WAS ALLAH and ALLAH WAS MUHAMMAD. The ALLAH of the Koran never existed except in the mind of Muhammad. No God would ever create the depraved Paradise of Islam described as: “Men with protracted erections and engaging themselves in sex present a scene worth watching: most of them, if not all, remain locked, like the dogs, with the Hurs and the young boys for a protracted period of time. Lying on the top of the Hurs (this position changes, on the basis of the men’s fancy), and riding the boys from their back, they create a scene that no human has seen before in his lifetime. In a sentence, it is a mass orgy. God loves orgy, but it does not cause arousal to His own sexual desires, as He is impotent. He, however, visits His honored guests from time to time to make sure they have been doing fine in the Gardens. He helps them with guidance where they need it in order to make their stay in them most pleasurable. After all, this is what He had promised them all along.” This immoral evil Paradise would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic. Millions have been murdered so their Muslim murderers can ascend to this evil Paradise. Again quoting– “Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain” 9:111 Those who “fight in the way of ALLAH” and kill and are killed will achieve martyrdom and enter this Paradise (Garden). On 911 - the 19 Muslims on those planes were obeying 9:111 so they could ascend to the highest levels of Paradise and each be rewarded with a 1000 virgins that they could molest and sexually abuse for all eternity. The eternal hard – on promised to Muslim men who achieve martyrdom is a powerful motivation. How can any normal person believe in Islam with such a pagan Paradise, believe in such an evil ALLAH, pray to such an evil book – the Koran. "As for the righteous (Muslims)...We (Allah) shall wed them to beautiful virgins with lustrous eyes" - Q 44:51-54 Estimates vary as to the number of virgins (2 to 72) per male Muslim in heaven (Sahih Bukhari 4:54:476, Al-Tirmidhi 2562). Actually the Tirmidhi Hadith states that 72 wives is the minimum, perhaps for the not so devout Muslims in the 7th heaven. Mohammed said: "The least reward for the people of paradise is 80,000 servants and 72 wives" - Al-Tirmidhi 2562, 2687. Prophets, suicide bombers and other Islamic martyrs in Islam's first heaven may get up to 1000 virgins each. For maximum enjoyment of these numerous wives, Muslim men are guaranteed superb erection in heaven: Paradise for sexual intercourse". It was questioned: "O prophet of Allah! can he do that?" He said: "He will be given the strength of one hundred persons.'" (Mishkat al-Masabih 4:42:24; Sunan al-Tirmidhi 2536). When asked, "Do we have sex in Paradise?" Ibn Kathir, the renowned Islamic scholar explained: 'Yes, by him who holds my soul in his hand, and it will be done...and when the sex is finished she will return pure and virgin again' – Tafsir Ibn Kathir. Al-Suyuti (15th century) another famous Islamic theologian and Quranic comentator adds: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected (Muslims in heaven) never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world ...Each chosen Muslim will marry seventy houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas." With its offer of eternal hard-ons and gratifying heavenly sex with virgins who "re-virginate" after sex, its little wonder Muslim terrorists, suicide bombers and other Islamic martyrs are in a hurry to enter Islam's brothel paradise. Do you believe that God selected an evil murderer Muhammad to create a religion and then commanded that anyone who refused to believe in God’s religion – refused to believe the evil teachings of God and His Messenger - Muhammad must be murdered. That believers in God’s religion have the moral right to murder all human beings who refuse to convert to Islam, rape their wives and daughters, etc and if they are killed in the process of fulfilling 9:111 they will ascend to the immoral and sexually depraved, sick Islamic paradise to rape and molest virgins for all eternity. THIS IS TRUE INSANITY.
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ianniscarras said:



Sat, 2007-10-27 10:01
A note to the editorial board. I believe the above comment by Larry Houle to be inappropriate and should probably be removed for reasons that will be evident to anyone who reads it. I.C.
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the_visitor said:



Sat, 2007-10-27 12:25
I.C. We're adults. We're capable of reading things and making our minds up, thank you. That's why this site is called "openDemocracy", see - it's OPEN! Instead of sulking, and asking teacher to tell off naughty intermedusa, why don't you do the adult thing, and rebut his/her arguments?
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severnjmc said:



Sun, 2007-10-28 19:46
I don't feel this should be removed - he (I assume it is a he) seems to have dug a satisfyingly deep hole for himself with his rather nasty prurient obsession with sex. What fascinates me is how he comes to read a publication like O.D. and, sadly, how little it seems to have done to broaden his mind.
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kerrywinn said:



Sun, 2007-10-28 22:07
Read the book to understand that it does condone the murder of infidels. The Bible has no such context, in spite of the fact it is full of violence. What the poster claims regarding Mohammed is fact, not fiction, regardless of Muslim apologists claim. When you lose your culture, your sense of right and wrong, you lose everything. Know your friends well, keep them close; know your enemies better to defeat them.
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Rudi Dierick said:



Sun, 2007-10-28 23:59
According to me, there is issue at all in the articulation of religious identity within the public sphere! This has been done, and is being done by hundreds of religions, and millions of people. The real issue lies in those interpretations of certain religions -be it intolerant Hindus that want to burn, destroy or al teast close every non-Hindu place of worship, or orthodox Jews that refuse any respect for others, or arch-conservative muslims stcking with the literal interpretations of Koran and with sharia- that fundamentally refuse the universal human rights. The common conflicts are about eual rights for men and women, the religiuos rights for all (especially the right to leave a religion), and the acceptance of the separation of church and state. That's the real issue, and the articulation trough symbols is just the 'xternal visible signs' of those conflicting values.
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Rudi Dierick said:



Mon, 2007-10-29 00:04
He is even still stuck with multiculturalism (MC) as a model, and mixing up the 'multi-ethnic' and 'multi-religious' reality (the demographic or sociological observation of current social reality), with the normative definition of MC. he also did miss the recent criticism of MC because it erodes democratic emancipation. He also missed the emergence of interculturalism.
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m.jamil said:



Tue, 2007-10-30 21:01
while oliver roy's analysis is as poignant as ever, the point about culture should be reassessed. all religion is part of culture, no religious thought or ideology exists outside of cultural specific identities, inclusive of ethno-linguistic nuances. in this case, and i speak as a euro-muslim academic, issues are clouded by religious rhetoric and psychological transferences. being muslim becomes an identity associated with ethnicity, as in the uk where pakis is a derogatory term applied to muslims from the indian subcontinent, whether they are bengali or pushtun, or karnatic, yet non-muslims from the subcontinent, are not identified as a religious minority, merely as a racial one. in france, north african berbers who may be francophone and not arab speakers, although still muslim, are saddled with an "arab identity" that axiomatically confuses religious and ethnic identity. political islam, to use roy's approach, has failed, but a politicized islam remains to represent an symbolic identity with which to rationalize reactions to racism and neo-colonial conditions. in reality we need to be re-reading franz fanon "wretched of the earth" to recognize the symptoms of mental illness induced by colonialist racism and oppression, and the shame and anger that turns inward in the face of such overwhelming power. the other side of the coin is cathartic, that is, lashing out violently against all the manifestations of the oppressor with no care for one's own life. such reactions are to be found within eta and the basque struggle for autonomy against horrific spanish oppression. the black anger that poured onto streets of the usa, and will do so again, is just such a manifestation of cathartic violence against internal colonialism. perhaps we could begin to analyze the african/arab minorities in france and the largely indo-pak minorities in the uk as conditions of internal colonialism. to conclude, we need to stop speaking in the misleading rhetoric of religion, which is no more than one symbolic condition of individual and collective identities, far less important that the overall labeling and oppressing of the other within any society, and the resulting problems of self-esteem and desire for cathartic reactions, most often violence is the most effective and necessary vehicle for release that can lead to emotional-psychological healing. although change in the structure of the dominant oppressive collective majority is equally necessary to facilitate social healing. this is true whether the issues are race of poverty, or both.
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irine52 said:



Thu, 2008-02-14 19:30

Religion and religious customs cannot be used to govern a country. In every country there must be a law separating church and state. Religion in general is too controversial, 'religious truths' are too questionable because they cannot be proven.
Religion, any religion, is to be practised in private. Religion cannot be part of public life and government.
The first country to separate church (religion) and state was Mongolia/China about 1500 years ago. While Europe and the Arab countries have a long history of wars in the name of religion, killing in the name of 'God' (what/whose God), Mongolia/China has had no religious wars, actually, Buddhism appears to be the most peaceful religion, seeking only harmony and tolerance.

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jim willmot said:



Fri, 2008-02-22 09:41

Of course, Christianity isn't much better. Check out evilbible.com. While the war in Afganistan is a total mess (the West armed everyone in the region), I feel for the women who must wear burkas, submit to the sexual desires of older, bigoted men, and are not allowed to be educated. Where is the outrage in the Muslim community for this type of behavior? Magical thinking is silly people...treat people as you would want to be treated...it is as simple as that...no need for priests, mullahs, right reverends, etc. The religion industries of the world must be exposed for the fraud that it is. It is the perfect scam...they have never had to deliver on their promises. I just hope Muslims can find new ways to escape the veil (as many Christians have)...without feeling they are losing their culture/identity and more importantly, without losing their lives.

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