Jill Grieve (London, The Countryside Alliance): Back in February 2005, when the Hunting Act came into force, anyone who predicted that hunting would be in its current state by late 2007 would have been labelled over optimistic. Yet here we are, beginning the third full season under the Act, and hunting has managed to confound the pessimists and doomsayers; it has adapted with determination and prospered in adversity.The only thing that is clear about the Hunting Act is that it is confusing. That you can hunt a rabbit but not a hare, a rat but not a mouse and use two hounds to flush a fox to a gun but not three are just three of the quirks of this masterpiece of contradiction. <!--more-->The only way that hunts are making things work - 30,000 hunting days since the Act came into force and three convictions for hunting - is by using the exemptions within the Act: trail hunting, rabbit hunting, flushing to a bird of prey, flushing to a waiting gun, hound exercise.
It has been written in such an absurd, contradictory manner because the hunting argument has always been about people, not animals. The vindictive attitude of many Labour MPs towards the hunting community shows the true motivation of the Act - not to improve the lot of British wildlife, but to "take revenge for the miners" (you can imagine what the miners' hunts think of this idea) and do the "toffs" down.
Our political culture is permissive of legislation made in such a manner. It shouldn't be. A phrase, of uncertain origin but often misattributed to Benjamin Franklin, that democracy can be "two wolves and a sheep discussing plans for lunch", springs to mind. We need safeguards to protect us from the tyranny of the majority: in this case a metropolitan majority dictating law to a countryside it seems to have little idea about.
The perception that hunting is a "toff" pursuit proves this point. Of course some toffs hunt, but in a fluid and ever changing countryside you are as likely to meet a professional, a plumber, a farmer, a nurse or a cab driver as you are a blue-blood. It is this diversity that is the cornerstone of hunting - it unites people, it brings them together and it keeps them together, regardless of background or career. The social cohesion of the countryside is one of the reasons the Countryside Alliance exists, and through fieldsports it thrives. That cohesion and determination will enable us to finally see off the Hunting Act - it's just a question of when.
Comments
foxes killing lambs no,they might carry away a dead lamb,but since it is dead anyway i dont see a problem with that.They are cleaning up the countryside. I have a friend that is a farmer and he loves the fox on his land.He has banned the hunt from going on his land ( they still try though accidently getting lost). He is a 'grower' and leaves the foxes so they keep the rabbit levels down.
I have a few chickens and ducks and in all the years i have had them i have not lost one yet to foxes. I put them away at night and i have made sure they are safe. Mind you when i was in hospital my husband did not put them away once and they were ok,and i know in my field i have foxes and badgers.
First of all let's deal with the politics of the issue:
1. It was a Labour manifesto commitment to introduce a bill banning hunting and that such a bill would not be whipped - MPs would have a free vote.
2. Not all Labour MPs voted for the bill and not all Tory MPs voted against it.
Secondly - and much more interestingly - what about the animal welfare vs people (class warfare) debate?
Jill appears to be of the belief that the hunting act was more about class warfare and not really about animal welfare at all. The truth is that the bill was predicated on the view that it is unethical to inflict suffering and death on wild animals simply because they are suspected of causing small economic losses to farmers. Studies undertaken by the Universities of Oxford, Bristol and Aberdeen confirmed that the artificial efforts at 'controlling' the fox population were largely ineffective and that the damage caused by foxes is insignificant. At public hearings on hunting with dogs held in September 2002, Professor Stephen Harris from Bristol University presented peer reviewed scientific evidence and stated: 'There is no evidence that foxes need to be controlled' and 'no method of fox control has had an impact on the fox population'.
The RSPCA argued that the bill was simply articulating in law modern society's abhorrence of cruelty to wild animals 'which has, for too long, been veiled in the bloody cloak of tradition and prejudice.'
So when Jill talks about the 'tyranny of the majority' perhaps she is really saying that she approves of democracy when it suits her. Does Jill approve of the national minimum wage, of the ban on handguns and of the ban on smoking in public places, or are these also examples of the 'tyranny' of the majority?
Just a quick point from a working class "country lad". I live in a rural area which is hunted by a fox hunt - and the majority of people around here either support hunting or just aren't interested either way.
There are antis around in the countryside and so you do hear people say that most country people don't like hunting. I'm sorry, but most of those "country people" have probably moved in from other areas to change (sorry "enjoy") the countryside. Being classed as a "country person" does not mean you live in the countryside, it means you are someone who loves, is inspired by, and engages with the countryside. I.e. in my book if you're not something like a farmer, gamekeeper, fisherman, hunter, shooter, or someone with a deep knowledge and love of the countryside then youre just a "rural dweller". If I moved to London I don't think I could legitimately be classed a "Pro hunting urbanite".
Also many people have implied that the cruel hunting mob should be replaced with marksmen who are there to control the pests. The thing with our hunted mammals like the fox, deer, and hare, is that they remain elevated from being classed solely as vermin because of hunting. I know a lot of people who shoot foxes, and indeed I have shot a few myself, and they are all pro hunting and would all enjoy going to a meet of hounds, and perhaps even spend a few hours on a saturday watching the hunt. Yet at the same time, while loving the spectacle of the hunt and welcoming the fact that hunts kill a few foxes, fox shooters would also chuckle that hunters are far too sentimental about foxes. Fox shooters (while still good countrymen) are the unemotional exterminators of foxes, and for good reason as they really are pests when in the wrong place. Yet they would view the hunt as being far too concerned about the health of the fox population, and have a chuckle at how highly they regard the fox, and love him for his beauty, and want to control and disperse the fox population so as to keep it healthy.
To my knowledge there aren't any registered packs of Rat Hounds. If there was a history of sporting Rat Hunting in this country, then you can bet that the rat hunters would be the only people concerned about the rat. Unfortunately for the rat, no such tradition exists.... Now.....where did I put that poison??
I response to Collins's point. I am a licenced fox shooter, and yes I am a countryman too - although I started out as a city lad in my youth.
I moved to the country when I was in my teens having had no background or knowledge of the countryside whatsoever. I made loads of friends quickly and was welcomed in at a time when I felt very unsettled. I started playing rugby with my new farming friends having only ever played football at school in London. I got into clay pigeon shooting through them, and then over the years I started helping to shoot foxes on the sheep farm as they were finding lots of good healthy lambs being eaten alive.
I am now a postman in the village but shoot foxes by night using a lamp and high powered rifle. I view the fox purely as vermin and shoot as many as I can. I do go to some hunt meets now and then because I love to watch the hounds work and (before the ban) try to kill some foxes, but it is funny how the hunting people regard the fox so highly. Many of them loose lambs and chickens to the fox but still want to see healthy foxes around. They only want to kill the old and sick foxes that harm their stock, whereas the healthy foxes can easily evade the hounds and be gone miles whilst the hounds then spend hours plodding along following the scent of a fox that is already on the other side of the world.
Personally, after the atrocities I have seen, I think the only good fox is a dead one - but I do respect the hunters (alothough don't really understand them) for their love of the wily fox.
I have never hunted and i have no desire to hunt. It always seemed a rather inefficient way of dealing with vermin - clearly shooting must be a more effective. However I can think of 30 things more deserving of Parliament's time than the hunting ban. Frankly I'm nauseated by the continual bleating of the animal rights fanatics. As long as we continue to treat human beings no better than animals then then 'animal rights' are going to have to wait. Our government has helped to butcher hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq so excuse me if I don't give one damn for a fox.
Clutching at straws Stephen, hunting has nothing to do with people dead in Iraq, an age old ploy to muddy the waters and deflect from the issue again, do get some new tactics.. Assumptions again dear boy! I consider any life valuable unlike yourself and you think the fox hunting issue should have no time spent on it yet you are spending quite a lot of your own time fighting against it! Funny that. You obviously have a hate campaign going against people who care about animals (or course we are all fanatics)!! and of course you are neither for or ant i(just slagging of those who do care so that comment is nonsense, think again) You are giving me a good laugh if nothing else. As I, and others have commented, to bring other social issues into the argument does nothing but weaken your argument as you try to deflect from this 'unimportant' issue! You have no right to tell me what I can spend my time campaigning for neither do you know what other issues I campaign for so the person with low intellect is sure apparent here!
As for you M, having trouble keeping up? The sad old more important issues argument is just that , those with a vested interest in killing using other issues to try to deflect from the one in question. Not difficult to understand but you appear to be unable to do so, shame! If you care to look back the comment re people eating meat and getting stroke and heart attacks (very true) was in response to another idiot who stated the foxes die from various illness anyway so hunting them is in fact in their favour! We have all heard many absurd arguments for those who love killing to continue but that takes the biscuit, hence my suggestion that if the premise of his argument is correct, so is my suggestion. I realise that may be a little hard for you to understand as you do not seem to be of high intellect . As for gutting the turkey, would expect no less, you must be such a brave man killing little creatures, are you a tad short by any chance!! Usually find this kind of mentallity in little men.
You and yer old mate Stephen seems to be in the minority both in the public opinion of the country (hence the ban) and on this board. How sad!
The sad old 'there are more important issues' argument again. There will always be issues which have more importance than others, in differing people's opinions. The majority of this country wanted hunting banned and thought it cruel. End Of!
It is called democracy and if Stephen finds the subject so unworthy of time, one wonders why he is spending some of his bothering to write on this board? Not a disgruntled hunter or hunt supported by any chance?
As for labelling anyone who has the welfare of animals as a concern 'animal rights fanatics', it clearly shows his narrow minded and bigoted assumptions.
Shame on him.
Dear me, Collins, what a narrow minded bigot you are showing yourself to be. We can all live in 'your countryside' so long as we tow the line and let you get on with your kiling for fun. How generous of you. You are no better than a racist, we can live near you so long as we carry on your archiac acts, oh sorry, customs. I actually live in the country and have a lot of friends who live in it too, born and bred, we do not take pleasure from killing things it is not part of our enjoyment of life. Your ilk would never know the pleasure of protecting animls, caring for them and the enjoyment one gets from giving them a better life. and seeing them happy. That makes me very happy, along with a clear conscience of course. Unhappy people have to brag about their blood lust. So carry on enjoying your fun of killing things, as I said, may you reap what you sow, may you label caring people and carry on killing, we all get what we deserve in the long term. Tally Ho!
"The sad old ‘there are more important issues’ argument again. There will always be issues which have more importance than others, in differing people’s opinions"
What does the above actually mean? Can you type in English next time?
So the fact that there ARE more important issues doesn't matter to you? Even though you admit that there are more important issues than waffling on about stupid animals, you don't care about them? Pathetic.
"The majority of the country wanted hunting banned and thought it cruel"?
Was there a referendum on it then? No! So, you're making up things to try and justify your view? That is quite amateur. Are you a politician? You sound just like one.
As for labelling anyone who has the welfare of animals as a concern ‘animal rights fanatics’, it clearly shows his narrow minded and bigoted assumptions.
Narrow minded and bigoted James? You should know. Didn't you post this?
you [referring to hunters] could die from high BP and stoke due to all the lovely fat steaks your are eating, perhaps we should hunt you and get it over with quicker for you too, tally ho!
You are a real intelligent type ah? I can't wait for Thanksgiving. We're going to gut a turkey! Oh and a pig! And a chicken! I think this holiday has a slang nickname. Yes, it's known as peta - people eating tasty animals!
Why have you hunters changed the name of 'cubbing' to autum hunting?Is it because it sounds much nicer? than what it is all about practicing killing the baby foxes with young hounds? My how the cubs yell when they are being ripped apart. I know all about this my friend went for a days 'fun hunt' no blood. She saw lots of blood,lots of screams of dying and lots of riders laughing at what was happening and there is a ban my arse.Let nature take its course, animals live, animals die as much as i do not like an animal to suffer nature is cruel she will let the young die the cute die but its life,natural life. Not man made.
I am a country girl born and bred, I hate with all my heart the arrogance of the hunt community. I am not alone in this in my village, but I'm the only one that will put a sticker in my car saying 'i support the hunt ban'. Now I know a lot of people in my village have stickers supporting the hunt, but I'm the one having the agro. I have been punched in the face in front of my small children in our Tescos. My tires suffer too, but I have never been rude to them. I'm not a 'sab'. I am just having my own say on the matter.
I get a lot of people coming up to me saying they agree to the hunting ban but are too scared to have a sticker in their car. I find that sad. I had a man come up to me moaning that there is not really a hunting ban, and how because of my sticker he is going to go out that night and shoot some foxes. That shows the mentality pro-hunters seem to have.
I love living in the country, I love to see wild animals in the country but I like to see them happy not being chased to their deaths by some blood-hungry idiots. My husband's boss hunts and shoots all he can. I have no problem with the animals we can eat but not with those we can't. He admits he loves to kill, then he loves to brag to me what he has killed. I find that so sad. We should celebrate our wildlife not kill them.
No James I told the truth. I have no connection with hunting and I have no social contacts with any hunters. What I am nauseated by is the animal rights fanatics who think that the the life of a fox is more important than the lives of those dead in Iraq. Shame on you James. Perhaps when you grow up sufficiently to learn to value of human life then you might understand what I am saying. You apparently belong to the binary minded bigots who think everyone is either a red-blooded hunter or a passionate anti. Well I am neither. If you haven't the intellect to cope with that then that is your problem.
It is obvious to anyone reading the opinions here that the pro-hunters who are unable to sustain their argument, are attempting to deflect criticism of their sport by raising unrelated issues such as immigrants and Iraq in an attempt to move the goalposts.
The anti-hunting commentators are putting their case forward into a focused discussion and refusing to be distracted by unconnected topics.
I particularly appreciate Mike Ion for laying out the political as well as the welfare aspects, and I do wish that this Government had been strong enough to protect the fox, when it was clearly stated that there is no evidence that they need to be controlled. Perhaps we need another campaign – for fox protection this time?
I’ve spent most of my life in a rural environment, and like many here despise the cruelty so often witnessed in the countryside, but what has always intrigued me is why do hunters say that foxes are ‘cruel’ or ‘spiteful’ or ‘wicked’ or ‘enjoy’ or ‘laugh’ (generally in respect of killing cooped up chickens) Why do they attribute human emotions to a wild animal?
I would have thought that these country people who have such a deep understanding of nature would know that a fox or any other wild creature responds only to its natural instincts, and cannot be damned with our worst behaviour.
Why have I read or heard accounts of foxes killing lambs, piglets and even foals (!!) but never seen any evidence of that occurring, despite the fact that today, the world and his wife carries a mobile phone, and most now have camera or even video incorporated into it. So come on hunters show the world your evidence - if you’ve seen it, as you allege to have done, capture these hideous incidents on your phone and show us.
I’ll be really fascinated to see the video of a fox climbing up into a pram, unhooking that net screen that protects the child from insects, maneuvering around the strings of toys suspended across the (up) hood. And how about the fox racing across an open field in mad pursuit of a young foal, now that would be something to see. I know it sounds crazy and risible, but it can’t be disputed because these ‘stories’ have come from you, the hunters.
Jill Grieve says…’metropolitan majority dictating law to countryside it seems to have little idea about’…
A response to that may be this - if you want us to keep our noses out of hunting and persist in making this a town/country divide, then you had better keep your noses out of our spending habits. Your constant pleas to support farming and rural communities, their produce and vile practices, may fall on deaf ears as we choose to buy ever more and cheaper foreign imports. Me - I’m already deaf to you.
But that’s a decision for the wider public to make when they’ve reviewed the cruel images that you will be presenting (won’t you) as you hang on desperately hoping for a change of Government to reinstate your cruel sport.
.
Well said, Graham. Dead right.
The only people who say this is a 'Toff' thing are the hunters. When I go out monitoring I get verbally and physically abused by posh thugs and rough thugs in equal measure.
It's not a towny thing either; I live out in the sticks, surrounded by hunt country, but have always beleived it to be wicked and cruel.
PS. I like the term "militant bunny huggers " from Simon. Think I'll get a Tee-Shirt with that on.
M Anderson said to a lady above:
“Embrace all living creatures”? Does that include the Japanese and their coycarp? How stupid are you tree huggers? Besides that, your supposed hatred of hunting is just a cover for your true hatred of English people! Why you hippies can’t just come out and say that is beyond me! Oh what, you dont want to look like the utter hypocrites you are. Shame!'
What a king, caring person he sounds. Just the type to enjoy killing animals wouldn't you say?
Now he presumes to tell me whom I vote for. And he calls me a self righteous hypocrite ( has an e in it M). Pot calling the kettle comes to mind. You can label caring people with any silly adjective you like, we will not go away, we will not stop fighting to stop animal abuse and we will live where we like. Hunters and any other people can do what they like so long as they do not harm other living things. Now must go, must find a bunny or a tree to hug before I eat my bean burger!
To say that hunting is "cruel" one must argue that it is crueler than the alternatives. For a fox, the alternative is to either starve to death, get hit by a car or die of a disease. Or get shot.
Starving to death is unpleasant. The fox will digest its innards, suffering excruciating pain as the acid devours its intestines. This will carry on for days. The fox will untimately start rotting before it actually dies.
It would be hard to argue that starving to death is a preferable death to being hunted.
Disease could conceivably be more pleasant that dieing by hounds. Depends on the disease. Without data to hand, I'm going to guess that heart attacks are rare. More likely are hydatids, distemper, parvovirus, canine hepatitis, heartworm and sarcoptic mange.
Are any of these diseases going to provide a more humane death than hunting? Looking at pain intensity and duration of pain, my hunch is that they are less desirable than a quick death by hounds.
Shooting foxes can, ideally, provide an instant death. But the chances of injury and a prolonged death are great.
Hunting with dogs has two things in its favour: the death is quick, and the death is certain. In most cases the dogs will break the neck of the fox. In the worst case, the dogs will bite the fox repeatedly before breaking its neck: painful for sure! But no fox is alive one minute after contact.
In conclusion:
The anti-hunt lobby talk of preventing cruel death. But the truth is that banning hunting shifts the mechanism of death onto equally - or more- painful natural causes. I can't see the gain in banning hunting from a fox welfare perspective. If one was to propose a form of anaesthatised euthanasia for foxes, then there might be a case. But I don't hear that being proposed. If cruelty to the animal is the only consideration (and it is not, by any means) then it is illogical to disapprove of hunting with dogs.
My family have hunted for generations. i was born and bread in the countryside. i love hunting and really enjoy it. its my life. all my mates are there. the huntsman (working class lad), the builders, a retailer, binman, solicitor, crown court judge, pub landlord, lad from the army. its just a huge group of people enjoying each others company. working as a team and having fun. why can those silly little antis let us get on with it. they don't understand hunting. "its cruel" they say. but, have they ever been? No. If they have its in the back of a landy in a balaclava engaged in people hating. Makes me sick! The fox? his best mate is the huntsman. we love him, think he is beautiful and for centarys we have ensured his survival in the countryside. because of foxhunters, he has a value. without us he is vermin and (is being) and will be removed in huge numbers.
The problem is you have people with good hearts talking about something they have no clue about and no understanding or experience of..... dangerous! they need to look at the big picture.
Repeal the hunting act now, for my sake, the foxes sake, the countrysides sake, the farmers sake and for all conservation.
PSI have just read the comment above mine. You silly little person..... can't believe you are so full of hate you would suggest that because we hunt we may abuse our children. That's completely ridiculous. In fact a huge number of children go hunting on horse where they are taught a healthy sport, good manners and above all respect for rules and regulation. Junior hunters are a great group and I'm happy to say the future is bright (not just orange) and hunting will be theirs and will continue in whatever form forever. I will hunt till i die!!!!
Oh dear James...
Sounds like my missus was right about you.
You are a "vegetarian anti-everything". And you sound like an unhappy one too. I must stop telling her off for labelling people. Good thing we rural folk do have a good sense of humour! I've heard that game contains a lot of selenium which promotes a feeling of wellbeing. You should try some pheasant, its delicious and very good for you, and apparently it makes you happy too. It's ok though - you wont have to shoot it because you can buy it in the supermarket along with all the other top quality British produce that our country produces. Sorry - I'm being racist again! We should all buy the imported meat from countries with no welfare standards.
Any urban folk who want to quit the smoke and move out here to chill out and relax a bit - the countryside welcomes you! The pay's not great, there's no public transport and life can be tough - but we have stunning scenery, great sense of community, and people generally get along and stop to talk to strangers in the street for a chat. Just please don't complain when we enjoy a bit of huntin, shootin, and fishin in our free time - it's all part of enjoying life.
Sorry one more point..
James stated "this is the 21st century and barbaric acts have no place in it."
I hope you're not a Labour voter James!! Or does the 21st century only include Britain and not Iraq.
How shameful that a retired primary school teracher, a person who has influence over young minds, is admitting she is proud of being involved in chasing wild animals to death for fun. SHAME ON HER. As for she other twaddle 'Irespect the hunters for their love of the wily fox', has anyone ever heard such utter rubbish! The animals I love are given care and concern I don't who my love for them by chasing them terrified then having them ripped to shreds. The CA is just a minority group who think they are aboive the law, did anyone see them marching to Westminster and breaking into the House of Commons about post offices closing or toher country issues! And as for Stevem, above, we do not want to know your life story, may you reap what you show, I know what I would call vermin, thnose who gain pleasure from killing animals.
I am a retired primary school teacher ( I mention this merely because many ordinary people hunt) and I hunt with the foxhounds. The only cruelty I have seen is the saboteurs trying to spray the hounds eyes. I did see a fox run closely to the hounds who were busy following the laid trail in scrub and did not give chase. Needless to say the sabs with their videocams were not interested in that. A wonderful stag ran across their path. The sabs did not seem interested in that either. People are ill informed about hunting and churn out the same old rhetoric. Ann Widdecombe for one should be addressing herself to the cruelty in our battery chicken industry or the way foreign meat imports are allowed here despite awful welfare conditions. Perhaps she and others who do not want to understand what fox hunting is about, should apply themselves to helping mange-ridden urban foxes, who are reduced to scavenging our streets. We all know that the middle way was preferred by the majority of people but Labour wanted a pop at what they perceive as the upper classes. In fact they have had another knock at rural people .We are a minority in this urban society of ours, but it seems a bit rich that urban minds can constantly dictate what goes on in the countryside when they are supposed to be tackling the reported growth in handgun and knife crime in their own back yards. There's a lot of hypocrisy out there!!
Sorry Kitty - but that's not always the case.
Many city folk, such as Steven who posted earlier, have made excellent relations in their new rural homes and do a lot for the community. These people are highly valuable assets to rural communities.
But there are those few, that small minority, (as my girlfriend calls them the "vegetarian, anti-everything brigade"), that minute number of people who are :
anti crowing cockerells, anti new affordable housing for hard up locals, anti church bell ringing because it wakes them up, anti village fireworks display because its noisy and scares tiddles, anti shooting because its evil, anti hunting - barbaric, anti farming - cruel, anti fishing - cruel, anti badger TB control - satanic, anti private property that thay cant access - spawn of satan, anti anything remotely interesting or fun - presumably because, well actually I have no idea where these people get their ideas.....
If you are born into a farming family and work 12 hours a day to preserve a rural way of life for £15,000 a year income to help feed the nation who don't have to get their hands dirty with the distasteful aspects of meat production (even though you could sell up to city incomers who would pay you millions for your small farmhouse) if you also keep noisy chickens that crow, enjoy the village fireworks display, get some free food for the table and socialise with friends by shooting and feeding hundreds of songbirds with grain in the process, if you enjoy watching hounds catch foxes which contribute £1000 to the local economy on average for every fox killed, if you enjoy catching fish and letting them go again (or eating them), if you agree that the badger TB infection pool needs to be reduced by killing badgers as well as the millions of cattle that are killed already..... then quite simply you are considered to be the devil incarnate, hitler reborn.... why??
Country folk have been going on this way for hundreds of years whilst feeding the nation and keeping the land beautiful. Its only when people have "progressed" from our rural peasant-like ways to living in their unnatural city habitats that they suddenly condemn the habits of the country folk that they left behing. Unfortunately, they then get sick and fed up of the city smoke, crime, and murder and move back to the country... only to set about trying to convert it to a more attractive version of the concrete jungle they left behind.
Will Foxhunter Day – ….”healthy sport, good manners, respect for rules and regulation”…I suppose it’s according to your definitions isn’t it? Most people would be repelled and not think it ‘healthy’ that young children are being smeared with a dead fox’s blood after witnessing it being killed, and perhaps their ‘good manners’ really means that they are ‘healthily’ indoctrinated into it. It depends on what you feel is appropriate for your child’s well being and what is in their best interests. Country kids have to be extra tough, cruel and unfeeling, hmmm?
As for “respect for rules and regulations” - Only if those rules and regulations suit you though?
Martin Myhill-Sisley – “where your food comes from and what it has suffered in its delivery”
Please be more explicit, where exactly ‘does’ our food come from, and how exactly has it ‘suffered’ because last time I looked there were no chicken sheds in the centre of Sheffield or intensive pig rearing units in the centre of Derby. Best look in the mirror.
Collins – you can live and have a great love and understanding of the countryside without having to agree with, or to, your terms. I do, and many others do, so just get used to it.
Stephen - spending your spare time alone out in the dark killing foxes says a lot about you.
Perhaps you could be engaged with something more worthy and to the benefit of your rural community ,or reading the many books that have been written about hunting, (and Eleanor has indicated a couple) may be helpful to you. I know it can be quiet and often boring for young people in the sticks, but for goodness sake, get a grip.
Stephen says - “They only want to kill the old and sick foxes that harm their stock” - Not true…they won’t enjoy much of a hunt if the foxes are too old and sick to give them a good chase.
Stephen says - “But it is funny how the hunting people regard the fox so highly” - Yes hilarious. They like them so much that they even breed them, and transport them into areas where they’ve killed them all off.
Stephen says - “still want to see healthy foxes around” - Of course they do - to hunt. See above.
Now, which one of you kind hearted, welcoming, generous spirited, hunting country folk will explain to me - cubbing?
Nu Labour gave in to the militant bunny huggers on this one. Encouraged, the same activists took to grave robbing and international terrorism to stop animal experiments. Nu Labour now fights to save essential medical experimentation from the threat they have created. Time to turn the tide back. Repeal now.
"The Hunting Act was about people not animals"
What a load of tosh, Jill Grieve - the Hunting Act was about banning the wanton cruelty of a sport dressed up as "vermin control" or so called "wildlife management". We may be a society that is continually fed a diet of puerile dribble and nonsense on a daily basis, by the Media, but nobody is so obtuse as to believe, or be taken in by, the propaganda and lies peddled by the blood sports lobby. Remember that story covered by the Sunday Mirror back in 2004, when it was revealed that The Masters of Fox Hounds Association wrote to 800 hunt masters and chairmen warning of a nationwide "shortage of foxes"?. This letter urged that landowners should be encouraged to breed more foxes to solve the "problem" !!
Still think the Hunting Act was about people and not animals, Jill Grieve? - just look at what a casual Google trawl has thrown up!
We think nothing of hitting a rat on the head with a shovel in the farmyard and we should have the same feeling about dealing similarly with a fox”. James Gray (Tory MP, North Wiltshire)
Source: House of Commons Hansard for 29 Oct 1997
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo971029/debtext/71029-09.htm
"Pain and suffering is infliced on animal in the course of sport. Nobody who has seen a beaten fox dragging his stiff limbs into the ditch in which he knows he will die can doubt this proposition"
Reginald Paget QC MP (later Lord Paget) who hunted with the Fernie and Pytchley foxhounds. Taken from "In Praise of Hunting" Hollis and Carter 1960
"Another curious incident happened when ... hunting with the Quorn ... Hounds lost their fox in a drain... they had also lost their fox in the same drain several times that season. So the Master had the drain opened up. Inside they found the skeletons of no fewer than ten foxes; all no doubt had died as the result of crawling into a damp drain when they were overheated, for inspite of their tremendous courage, tenacity and wiry energy, foxes are highly nervous and sensitive animals.
John Wentworth Day in `Country Life',1960
"I enjoy seeing the fox ripped apart by hounds"
James Roberts, aged 14, who hunts with the Burton and Blankeney; from the Newark Advertiser Junior page, 1992
"It is essential that hounds should have their blood up and learn to he savage with their fox before he is killed".
A reference to Cubhunting by the late 10th Duke of Beaufort
“As I have said, we are not a pest destruction society. I would rather account for a fox at the end of a good run than ‘chop’it at the beginning.”
Master of fox-hounds, Captain RE Wallace
Finally Jill Grieve, here is a sobering quote I would ask you to ponder and reflect upon - it may change your view and your life:
“There will come a day when such men as myself will view the slaughter of innocent creatures as horrible a crime as the murder of his fellow man. Our task must be to free ourselves by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty". Albert Einstein
My local (labour) mp, Nick Palmer , is a vegetarian and a passionate anti-hunting protagonist. BUT-he is a strong supporter of the bombing of Iraq and the killing of thousands (?) of women and children. Seems a strange mix of values to me.
Such arrogance Collins. How dare people be 'vegetarian'. Oh my God!!! How dare they not want blood on their hands!! Only those who are pro hunt and other forms of cruelty are 'welcome' in the country by those who think they own it. Many people work 12 hours a day for a low income. Join the club. As for killing foxes contributing £1000 to the local economy, now your talking, that is what it is all about , money and fun! 'Country folk' have been going on this way for hundreds of years', you state, I am sure that was said about any form of abuse such as sending little boys up chimneys and not allowing women the vote, guess what - this is the 21st century and barbaric acts have no place in it. I am sure you do have no idea where 'these people' (presumably you mean those who abhorr cruelty and choose a cruelty free lifestyle' get their ideas! You would never understand in a million years why you are perceived as 'the devil incarnate' would you? 'Fox shooters are the unemotional exterminators' are they 'who have a chuckle' about fox hunters, how jolly! How evil!
As for killing badgers which you also seem to agree on, have you heard about the INDEPENDENT 10 year study ' which concluded killing badgers is not the way forward
'The King report has also provoked comment from top statistician Professor Denis Mollison. Professor Mollison commended the ISG report to ministers in June as "an exemplar of how to bring high quality science into public decision-making." In stark contrast, he describes the King report as "unbalanced and inexpert", and added that it would not have passed his audit.'
The King report being a two day study by DEFRA appointed King. Which would you believe?
I'm no racist and I firmly belive that everyone in the world should have the right to come and live in the same village as me, just as I have a right to move anywhere else. The fact is that the person that moves in does so because they want to be safer or happier than where they came from. I firmly believe therefore that you should fully respect the beliefs, customs, and traditions of the local population where you end up.
I would not dream of moving to Saudi Arabia and then kick-off about them publicly executing criminals. Nor would I move to Spain and campaign against bullfighting.
Nor would I move to London to campaign against townies pursecuting country people. Unfortunately I can do that at home.
James, on November 9th, 2007 at 11:23 am Said:
‘rural dweller’ ‘country person’, as bad as racism. Those who are born in the UK have a right to live anywhere and no one has any more right than any other person. We all pay taxes. We all have a right to speak out against cruelty also. I think you would find that if you go about your business without animal cruelty being involved no one would bother you, when it comes to animal abuse it is ALL our business whether one was born in the country or not.
"We all pay taxes"? Firstly, you're wrong! Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. Secondly, hunters can quite legitimately spout the same thing when referring to hunting! They pay taxes, why shouldn't they have the right to do what they want to? Oh I see. Your theory only applies to people like you. What a self-rightous hypocrite you are.
James:
“this is the 21st century and barbaric acts have no place in it.”
Hmm James the new labour voter doesnt like "barbaric acts"! So James, you've obviously been on the phone to Blair (in the past) and Brown (recently) complaining about their barbaric behaviour, i.e. denying English cancer patients life saving cancer drugs. Right James?
'It is not cruel'.
How kind and compassionate these people are - NOT
We have heard them all before. 'The social cohesion of the countryside'. How laughable. I know of many people who live in he countryside and are anti hunt. You know, the ones with a conscience. It is tired old excuses such as those that make me ever more determined to ensure I carry on hunt monitoring. They are sore loosers, the huntban is in progress and will continue, Get used to it! And as for such nonsense as 'the toffs' and 'the townies' just yet more rubbish to deflect from the REAL issue. Cruelty or comapssion. I know which side I am on.
Never hear any new arguments do we, many wild animals may have the same issues but don't lose any sleep over them Charles as they are not the ones you and your cronies want to have a jolly day out killing are they! Your concern is touching! Of course, you could die from high BP and stoke due to all the lovely fat steaks your are eating, perhaps we should hunt you and get it over with quicker for you too, tally ho!
To the last poster:
Aha! ha! ha! ha! You posted a quote by Albert Einstein.
Is what he spouted worthy of consideration? I think not!
He was the bloke who invented the Atom bomb! Oh for crying out loud, the bloke who invented the ATOM BOMB. Do you not understand? "Embrace all living creatures"? Does that include the Japanese and their coycarp? How stupid are you tree huggers? Besides that, your supposed hatred of hunting is just a cover for your true hatred of English people! Why you hippies can't just come out and say that is beyond me! Oh what, you dont want to look like the utter hypocrites you are. Shame!
To say that the Hunting Act is about people and not animal welfare is complete nonsense and is an insult to the majority of the British people who put pressure on politicians of all parties over many years to bring it about.
That the Countryside Alliance repeats this piffle week in week out shows how vacuous and desperate their
'arguments' are.
The ban is supported by politicians and public of all backgrounds and persuasions.
The late Alan Clark, the Conservative politician and hardly a 'class warrior', was fiercly anti hunting as is Ann Widdecombe a former Home Office Minister and supporter of hereditries in the Lords!
Other conservative minded opponents include Teddy Taylor, former Conservative MP, Roger Gale, Con MP and Sir Patrick Moore.
I live in a hunting area and know the majority of country people do not support hunting nor have they ever done so.
As for the 'social cohesion' that hunting brings, according to the author of this piece, by all means have that by dressing up and riding out with hounds and having hunt balls etc, just don't chase a sentient creature to exhaustion before disembowelling it for kicks.
Proper drag hunts provide just such entertainment with all the social aspects, just no death of a wild animal for twisted pleasure.
That is why your sport was banned and will stay banned, despite what your Conservative leadsership paymasters have promised you.
Funny how we never heard about the 'tyrrany of the majority' when the CAs poltical friends were in power for so many years.....
50% oppose hunting in the strongest hunting areas. People who have lived in the country and worked there all their lives oppose hunting. Some people are conditioned to accept it. Some people like it. It makes no difference to the fox population. Hunting is not pest control it is a pleasure sport. It causes 'immense suffering' (Professor Harris of Bristol University) but because it cannot ever be fully under control, it also invades private property, kills animals in front of children, trespasses against landowners' wishes and kills pets. Last season packs of foxhounds chased through young children gathered in public places on three separate occasions. People always resist change that forces them to change their belief system. Slavery was accepted and its abolition was bitterly fought on the grounds that it was natural, the slaves didn't suffer, and the economy needed it. So was child labour. People I know who hunt choose to delete the suffering caused, but no-one has a right to inflict the violence and mayhem of hunting with packs of hounds on their fellow inhabitants of the countryside. If hunting is to be continued, it should restricted away from all public and residential areas.
M Anderson, This discussion here is not about illegal immigrants it is about British people being made to feel they are some kind of outcast if they live intht country and do not support killing animals for whatsover guise it comes under, be it hunting, shooting, 'convservation' etc etc Hunters may pay taxes but the law of the land is they do not hunt as they did before. HUNTERS SHOULD OBEY THE LAW. I am sure smokers don't like not being able to smoke in premises or drivers who like to speed don't like speed camers, tough. And again, more arrogance to presume who I vote for. As for other issues, we can all debate those till the cows come home, another often used ploy by those who love to kill trying to delfect the issue. This is about hunting and the attitde of those who think they are above the law, own the countryside and enjoy killing living things for pleasure.and then tell us we are only 'welcome' there if we allow thiscruelty to continue and, heaven forbid, speak out about it.
Perhaps you would like to take some time to answer the query above from Sarah re cubbing instead of deflecting from the issue under discussion.. Or perhaps not, too difficult that one to cover up the disgusting pastimes of the cruel and sadistic is it?
The Hunting Act is about preventing cruelty - the barbaric cruelty of setting a pack of dogs on to a wild animal with all the fear and terror that entails, not to mention the attacks on livestock and pet animals, when hounds run riot.
It could be said that it has the added benefit of preventing people from giving in to their baser instincts and hopefully preventing them from abusing their children by showing them scenes of cruelty as something to be enjoyed.
It is a no-brainer, hunting is great. I have never heard an opinion that will stop me hunting, it is not cruel. I thank Blair for advertising hunting so much. Most anti-hunters bleat on about how cruel, frankly there are boring and miss-informed. If people really want to do something about animal cruelty they should look at their own lives. Voting for a government that has killed so many. Ask where your food comes from and what has suffered in its delivery. People in glass houses etc etc.
'rural dweller' 'country person', as bad as racism. Those who are born in the UK have a right to live anywhere and no one has any more right than any other person. We all pay taxes. We all have a right to speak out against cruelty also. I think you would find that if you go about your business without animal cruelty being involved no one would bother you, when it comes to animal abuse it is ALL our business whether one was born in the country or not.
There is no division between country folk and city folk that have migrated to the country. The divide was invented by the Countryside Alliance for its own ends in generating prejudice. As a country dweller, the Countryside Alliance certainly does not represent me. It represents those who support unnecessarily cruel bloodsports. The rest of the guff about opposing the closure of rural post offices and village schools is a smokescreen for the Countryside Alliance's principal aim.
Hunting deer, foxes, mink and hares (otters are now safe – we think) with a pack of hounds is simply cruel. It’s a no brainier it is cruel and barbaric and it cannot be justified.
You only have to look at the way the hunters disguise there cause. The National Trust has a small pro-hunt group called FONT – Friends of the National Trust., no mention of hunting here! The old association of Vets for Hunting has been re-branded as the Veterinary Society for Wildlife Management but has only 3% of the countries Vets, again no hunting mention. The small all party group of MPs in favour of hunting is called the Middle Way group. Guess what? No hunting mention here again, why do they not use hunting, because its cruel and the vast majority of people just don’t like it. In hunting terms the Fox is taken, not killed, the hunters are trying to take the P out of us.
We all like to see the Fox on AutumWatch or the cubs on SpringWatch not see them hunted for sport or fun.
The hunts may feel they have the upper hand, as off they go ‘Trail Hunting’ which is the new name for Fox Hunting. But its not about Fox Hunting its about the Rule of Law, we can all drive and use our mobiles, drop litter on the pavement and leave dog mess on children’s play areas. Pop into the supermarket and steal the items we consider over priced or excuse it by quoting the high profits supermarkets make.
However if we start as an individual or a group ignoring rules and laws that don’t suit our needs then this is just the start of a lawless and selfish society. Tory leader David (Hunting Green) Cameron bangs on about a broken society and the bad hunting law; well people break society and its only people that can fix it. We cannot leave it for politicians to mend our society we must do that for ourselves, through our behaviour and the values we instil in our children.
If we reward bad behaviour then it only servers to encourage larger servings of it!
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