Jon Bright (London, OK): As Lee Waters argues below, Paul Murphy may be set fair to become the new devolution minister. icWales has an interesting look at some of his initial thoughts. To paraphrase quickly: he thinks it would be "bonkers" for Wales to ask for less representation in the UK parliament - and looks set to argue Welsh representation should remain at 40 MPs in Westminster. He also seems to support regionalisation for England, and has already discussed possible a possible referendum with Rhodri Morgan and Ieuan Wyn Jones. He is also, icWales adds in a somewhat throwaway fashion, going to act as Minister for "digital inclusion" in the Ministry of Justice - the meaning of which, we hope, will become apparent later.
First thoughts of the new devolution minister?
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Comments
Gareth
Let's compare apples with apples - England does not perform the same constitutional role as Spain. Spain is equivalent to the UK in that respect.
You always set great store by England's status as a Nation.
Speak to Catalans and they also accord themselves the status of Nationhood. In fact this was formally acknowledged within the recent constitutional accord between Spain and Catalunya. The same degree of affinity applies in large measure to Basques in relation to Euskal Herria, Galicians for Galicia and to a lesser (but increasing) extent, Andalusians for their homeland.
The problem for the UK and England's role within it, is that England as a single entity represents an unwieldy (due to its size) and destabilising element for any developing UK framework.
English Nationalists routinely seize upon cultural and historical features as though they are the only factors to be considered - they aren't.
First of all the sense of National identity, in terms of homogeneity, you claim for England is perhaps overstated. Secondly England displays relatively wide social and economic disparity. An all-England political entity would not (in my opinion) be well suited to address these vital issues. Finally, Greater London has already begun to carve out a separate role for itself; a process that should be allowed to develop in other areas of England. The shape of those divisions is of course open to debate.
Your approach appears to characterise the devolved Nations as entirely alien entities, bearing a similar relationship to England as say, Kazakhstan or Peru.
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will continue to play a strong and defining role within the UK for the foreseeable future. I acknowledge that reality and want to see it recognised in a more formalised UK framework (with a written constitution), which I believe should be based on federal principles and a partnership between roughly equal elements.
Returning to the Spanish analogy, Spain consists of a number of autonomous communities. Some of those communities boast strong historical and linguistic ties (in that respect, quite similar to England); the Castillian connection. No one (except perhaps far right neo-fascisct groups) in Spain is proposing that these Castillian communities should be merged to form one super Region within the Spanish constitutional framework because such a development would fatally undermine the relatively equitable nature of its construction. This is the same reason why England won't function within a UK framework.
"You always set great store by England’s status as a Nation"
The Welsh and Scots are very proud of their Nation Status,why should the English not want to be proud of England as a world Nation?
As time rolls on, I'm increasingly less concerned if
England won’t function within a UK framework or not.
“It’s a personal view but I don’t see why we can’t have regional government in England, like in Spain, which is different from place to place,” he said.
Spain has a national government, England doesn't.
It's a personal view but I don't see why we can't abolish the Welsh National Assembly and have regional assemblies for North and South Wales.
Your approach appears to characterise the devolved Nations as entirely alien entities, bearing a similar relationship to England as say, Kazakhstan or Peru.
Do I? I think not.
If England won't function within a UK framework then I support dissolution of the Union and independence for England. We are a union of nations or nothing. However, I believe England can function within the Union, and claims to the contrary are being put about by those that do not wish to see England functioning within the Union for their own political reasons.
With reference to your point about comparing apples to apples - it was Paul Murphy (not me) that compared England with Spain.
Where exactly are these claims of homogeneity that you ascribe to me?
@Gareth: Spain has a national government, England doesn’t.
Those are your words - they seem to imply that England should boast the same institutional status as Spain?
@Gareth: Where exactly are these claims of homogeneity that you ascribe to me?
The CEP, which you represent, routinely conflates English Society in terms of uniformly shared cultural and historical influences. The people of England demand this that or the other.....
Try looking at the message from Hotspur immediately preceding your own, for example.
@Peter: Those are your words - they seem to imply that England should boast the same institutional status as Spain?
I was responding to Paul Murphy, as you well know, who used Spain as a comparison. I do not believe Spain is a good comparison with England because one has a national government (is a State) whilst the other is not. I'm surprised you find this a difficult concept to grasp.
I don't say that England has uniformly shared cultural and historical influences, but certainly it has shared cultural and historical influences. This is a common claim that all nationalists make. And it's a similar claim to the one you regionalists made about the north east's "strong sense of regional identity" when you tried and pathetically failed to balkanise England.
I don't see anything wrong with what Hotspur wrote.
Peter, your basic point seems to be that England (unlike Scotland, Wales, USA, Canada, India, Spain) should not have national government because it is not culturally homogenous (as if any nation is). It's complete and utter drivel and you know it. I've lived in Scotland, Germany and Canada and I think England is more homogenous than those nations (not that such comparisons really matter).
Obviously I am aware of cultural differences around England (my family are all from Yorkshire and Northumberland, and I've lived and worked all over England) which is why it annoyed me enormously to see you regionalists try to destroy the traditional administrative units with which people identify with your invented EU regions. Lets devolve power to units that English people identify with: parishes, towns, cities, counties, nation, and be done with this Eurofederalism that you are peddling.
I have a plane to catch so forgive me for not responding to whatever you offer up in reply.
You're right that they all live in England, but a Devonian farmer has little in common, in speech, culture or lifestyle with a person living in a council scheme in Newcastle.
Scotland and Wales should be independent, and then Scotland, Wales and England can all have INTERNAL devolution to solve the problems within them. England is far too centred on London, that seems to be its problem.
"apparently the EU can operate quite effectivley with France and Germany being much bigger than Luxemburg and Lichtenstien, if it can work in the EU there is nothing stopping it working in the UK"
Likewise, Cornwall, is the size of Luxemburg, but is considered too small, and the British government ignores all its claims as a nation, which are unmatched anywhere within England.
Ray Bell - 'What do a rural Devonian and Scouser have in common, or a Geordie and someone from Surrey?' err they all live in a country called England. The Scots may have thier divisions but they have a collective Parliament, we in England have to continually put up with diferences between us and all the establishment offer us is regionalisation which we do not want.
It amazes me that the argument against an English Parliament is that England is to big to operate within a federal state of the UK, yet we see some of those who espouse this argument are often EU enthusiasts (nothing wrong with that) , apparently the EU can operate quite effectivley with France and Germany being much bigger than Luxemburg and Lichtenstien, if it can work in the EU there is nothing stopping it working in the UK
"be done with this Eurofederalism that you are peddling"
It could equally be said that you are peddling europhobic, isolationism that is totally out of touch with the modern world or rather you prefer atlantacism that would see happy little England in the pockets of the Americans. So much for English idependence.
Come on Gareth time to be honest, the independence of England out of the EU but surrounded by Celtic nations inside the EU would survive how long exactly?
Faced with power blocks like the US, EU, Russia, India, China, etc old England would be eaten alive.
So what do you do? Too xenophobic to work with the Europeans you scratch around in the commonwealth and buddy up to the USA.
Philip - plenty of small countries can survive, and be run better. We do need a trading relationship with the EU - and with the rest of the world - but that shouldn't have to require us sharing political institutions that are removed from the people and dangerously undemocratic. OK the EU hasn't done much terrible so far, but it is putting in place systems that are open to dangerous abuse. Like the recent decision to allow the president to ignore the European Parliament's own rules in order to suppress dissent.
We would lose our influence on a world wide scale I presume. But in a 27 plus member EU how often would that influence be used in England's best interests? I would be happier with an 'isolationist' country if it means improving the lives of English citizens not interfering with other countries around the world.
And the tired old accusations of xenophobia for those who oppose the EU. I like Europe and Europeans. I have lived in Europe (though not in the EU - an often forgotten difference). European Free Trade Area yes - European Union no.
"plenty of small countries can survive, and be run better"
Great lets dissolve the UK then and England can let go of Cornwall.
"European Free Trade Area yes - European Union no"
First truly serious economic crisis and your free trade zone would be scattered to the winds with the old states falling back into self interest and state nationalism. Such a non political FTZ would also be easy pray for the larger economic/political blocks.
The EU is the first time in the worlds history we have the opportunity to put aside nationalisms and self interest and create something bigger and better with democracy and human rights at its heart. We, the UK, are not being absorbed by the EU, we are powerful players in the design and creation of the EU.
OK you might have not one xenophobic bone in your body but I can assure you that plenty of English nationalists and euro-sceptics are motivated by a dislike of Europeans and dream of some kind of anglophonic pact. I've been involved in local politics for a while now so just pop along to your nearest UKIP meeting one day and you'll see what I mean.
"I’ve lived in Scotland, Germany and Canada and I think England is more homogenous than those nations "
England is certainly not anymore homogenous than Scotland. It's just that Scots have their divisions continually pointed out to them.
What do a rural Devonian and Scouser have in common, or a Geordie and someone from Surrey?
If the EU can work with France & Germany it can work with with England .but does England want to work with Europe thats the question ,i mean our farmers From Cumberland to Somerset culturely the same, City business much the same ....England can go alone,Independence, with our own Parliament.. Politicians who will be accountable.to the people.of England......
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