We’re not born British.

Surely under the British Nationality Act of 1981 (?), if you're born in the UK then you are born British, at least in a legal sense.

We choose to be.

Again, under the above Act, no you can't.

You can later choose not to be, by personal application to the Home Secretary.

"God Save the Queen" should be consigned to the dustbin of history.

"wer’e all British whether you like it or not"

We're not born British. We choose to be. We're only British on paper - the rest is choice.

I beg to differ. God Save the Queen is a great song and Celtic fans should sing it cos wer'e all British whether you like it or not. London gets our taxes and oil.... who cares. Its our capital.

I think that the more Scottish we are, the less the sectarian problem will be. If Rangers fans cease singing and celebrating Britain, and Celtic fans forget Ireland to a large degree and perhaps sing Flower of Scotland in response to Rangers' God Save The Queen antics, then things could improve. An Independent Scotland would help people see Scotland as one and not as warring factions between Ireland and Brit lovers.

Is it not also ironic when Celtic fans boo Rule Britannia when sung by Rangers fans but vote Labour. Some Rangers fans sing Rule Britannia and vote SNP. Independence would help this confusion.

"The sectarian belt which you refer to strikes me as a small portion of Scotland"

As I said earlier -

"In most of Scotland, i.e. the whole of the north, the vast majority of the south east, the Borders, Dumfries and Galloway, sectarianism is not present to a high degree."

I think you can see what I was getting at.

"The SNP wants more because they’re funded by a Catholic fundamentalist and the ‘religious divide’ is central to some types of Scottishness."

The only particularly religious major donor of the SNP is a Baptist! So this is untrue - there is no RC fundamentalist who provides most of their money.

Was that a 'sectarian' murder, or just an example of football-related mayhem which occurs in every European country?

The sectarian belt which you refer to strikes me as a small portion of Scotland, especially when places like Stirling can be arbitarily struck from the list. The Monklands episode you refer to is debunked by Steve Bruce in Sectarianism in Scotland, which you can read on Google Books.

Getting rid of faith schools would be a popular move if this Guardian poll is accurate. Bizarrely, almost no-one is talking about it politically, possibly because the electoral system gives a lot of weight to religious minorities. The SNP wants more because they're funded by a Catholic fundamentalist and the 'religious divide' is central to some types of Scottishness.

"How many sectarian murders have there been recently?"

Not few enough. When I worked in Glasgow briefly - Partick to be exact (which ought to be "Thistle" territory), a man was stabbed across the square from my workplace.

"Perhaps it’s different in these towns you’re mentioning, though that strikes me as moving the goalposts. Research in Glasgow turns up nothing concrete, so the alleged sectarianism is moved elsewhere."

The worst places, as I said, are the small towns of the Labour belt (North Lanarkshire, North Ayrshire and parts of West Lothian). These are by far the worst, and are not places you go on holiday! (Well, there's the Antonine Wall there, and a few football games get played there). It's certainly not evenly distributed - for example, I'd think you'd be more likely to meet it in Govan than Milngavie, or Falkirk rather than Stirling.

The signs are - fortunately - that it's beginning to die out. It used to be far worse during the early part of last century - now it is retreating into football. I believe that the major football clubs, and certain councils have it in their power to do away with most of it. I wish they would.

Personally, I'm against faith schools, because they form a kind of religious apartheid. I'm uncomfortable with the idea, especially since you have to ask "if one religion has them, why not the rest?". Perhaps if you have RC schools, then surely Muslims, Mormons, Methodists and Hindus, and every other religion all have a right to their own. But, that said, I can see why the SNP isn't for getting rid of them - it is an extremely risky move for them in terms of votes.

You're quite right, Souter's sect is Protestant, for some reason I thought the Church of the Nazarene was a Catholic organisation.

I'd be interested if the sectarian belt you refer to is described in the media or academic research.

How many sectarian murders have there been recently? It's much less than one a year, isn't it?

Social survey data suggests there's no real problem. There's a report for Glasgow Council. Its conclusion is that there is a large gulf between the perception of sectarianism and the reality.

Perhaps it's different in these towns you're mentioning, though that strikes me as moving the goalposts. Research in Glasgow turns up nothing concrete, so the alleged sectarianism is moved elsewhere.

A fuller description of your evidence would be interesting. Job discrimination and what else?

"Scotland’s ‘deep-rooted’ sectarianism is largely a myth, peddled by politicians, the media, charities and football clubs."

Except that a) it's not a myth, and b) I wouldn't call it Scotland's really.

In most of Scotland, i.e. the whole of the north, the vast majority of the south east, the Borders, Dumfries and Galloway, sectarianism is not present to a high degree. And in places like Edinburgh and Dundee, it is considerably weaker than Glasgow. The vast majority of sectarianism basically exists in what I call the "Labour belt" (because they consistently vote Labour and nothing else), which is basically Greater Glasgow, plus working class areas of North Lanarkshire, North Ayrshire, West Lothian etc. All of these have experienced high Irish immigration, and it should be remembered that Irish immigrants weren't just the ones with the shamrocks on their sleeve, but the ones with the Red Hand of Ulster on them.

But it's definitely there in places like Wishaw, Coatbridge, Larkhall. You can witness it in the graffiti, the lodges, the football chants etc. It may be religious in origin, but many of the sectarians no longer attend church, and it is more tied to football. In the Labour Belt, it is partly there because industrial bosses deliberately created segregated communities (often of Irish migrants) along religious lines.

"The SNP’s earlier anti RC sectarianism (especially in the Highlands and the islands)"

The only problem being that the Highlands and Islands are not a part of Scotland which really are sectarian.

A complete nonsense, since the SNP's politicians come from a variety of religious backgrounds, including RCs, Episcopalians (equivalent to Anglicans), and Muslims.

The origins of the SNP and modern Scottish nationalism are similarly diverse. While some were definite Presbyterians, such as John MacCormick, others were Episcopalians, others such as MacDiarmid were atheists, and there were also a number of Roman Catholics, including converts such as Compton MacKenzie and Fionn MacColla.

"Would it not have been better to split Scotland into 4 or 5 regional assemblies instead of England?"

Yes, it would be good to see these regional assemblies in Scotland. After we become a sovereign state again. We don't need a Scottish equivalent of the "Home Counties" in the form of the Central Belt.

"Could be he’s a political opportunist."

Or even a diplomat.

I think this is a real issue, and it's religious as much as political. I think it's no coincidence that the Church allowed Cardinal O'Brien to lead the charge against Brown on the threatened whipping of the vote on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (see my discussion on this). This was sending out a clear political message to Brown: 'you won't be able to count on the Scottish Catholic vote next time round if you pursue this course'. The SNP did not fail to take the opportunity to stress that it would allow its MPs a free vote on the ethical issues in the Bill.

Brown's concessions on a free vote may just have salvaged his image among Scottish Catholics, for now. However, many of them must still have reservations about Brown, whose fundamentally secular-progressive, materialist and meritocratic ideology leaves little room for Catholic-Christian values such as the importance of disinterested service of others, community, the sanctity of unborn human life, and respect for the moral and teaching authority of the Church.

David, aka Britology Watch

"Meanwhile, the Scottish Nationalists are working hard to ditch their anti-Papist prejudices."

I'm not sure where that little gem came from. The anti-papists in Scotland are found among the unionists in west-central Scotland who are heavily influenced by Northern Irish unionist traditions.

The historical legacy of poverty and discrimination against Catholics in west-central Scotland means they vote Labour though they support Celtic Football club who traditionally draw their support from the nationalist side of the Northern Irish community.

Brown's problem may be that the Catholic vote in west-central Scotland may be getting a bit leery of voting for a man who continually extols the British Union when there's always been antagonism between the Ulster influenced unionist and nationalist communities around Glasgow.

Brown publicly musing on the repeal of the Act of Settlement is the action of a man who has lost it. Not because the act itself is worth preserving but because it involves the Crown and the Church of England at its core. If England has a Catholic Monarch then the Head of the Church of England recognises the Head of the Church of Rome as their spiritual leader.

Not a big deal in Scotland as we have no established church but a big deal in England where the only way to solve it would be to remove the Monarch as the Head of the Church of England. Brown hasn't a clue about English culture and politics. He's falling in the Scottish polls and he's contemplating the opening of an English can of worms to try and solve it.

If Ray Bell and Dougthe dug are correct about how New Labour have played sectariand games in divided Scotland. Would it not have been better to split Scotland into 4 or 5 regional assemblies instead of England?

“Meanwhile, the Scottish Nationalists are working hard to ditch their anti-Papist prejudices.”

I’m not sure where that little gem came from. The anti-papists in Scotland are found among the unionists in west-central Scotland who are heavily influenced by Northern Irish unionist traditions.

The SNP's earlier anti RC sectarianism (especially in the Highlands and the islands) is something I've heard rumours about before, are you saying Tom's making it up?

Salmond has been a vocal campaigner for repeal of the Act, while Cardinal O’Brien has declared himself “happy that, if it is the wish of the people, Scotland becomes an independent country.”

A further example of this “rapprochment” with the RC establishment has been Salmond’s whole-hearted endorsement of the continuance of a school-system segregated along religious lines.

On the other hand, his best mates in Ulster are the Rev. Ian and the Dupes….

Could be he’s a political opportunist.

Anyone would think from the article and the above post that religion mattered to the average Scottish person. The ERSC synopsis you've linked to doesn't mention any 'ongoing breakdown' of the 'old sectarian voting patterns'. That's because they've almost completely disappeared.

Scotland's 'deep-rooted' sectarianism is largely a myth, peddled by politicians, the media, charities and football clubs.

If Labour is, it serves them right.

They have long, long played the sectarian card in Scotland. They have told Protestants that the SNP is a species of Sinn Fein, and the RCs that it is a Protestant party. And the working class that they betray themselves if they don't vote Labour (despite the fact that Labour has created many of Scotland's newer slums). Current Labour MPs and MSPs include ex-Orangemen, and former members of the Ancient Order of Hibernians (the so called "Green Order"), such as Frank Roy.

Scotland would do well to break up the religious vote, and have people of various denominations/religions voting for their party of choice, not their party of church. I think Cardinal O' Brien, to his great credit, has gone a long way to trying to break down this barrier.

"But it’s definitely there in places like Wishaw, Coatbridge, Larkhall. You can witness it in the graffiti, the lodges, the football chants etc."

That's confirmation bias. It's partly how the sectarian thing keeps rolling on. Someone is walking along, and they see 'UVF' carved in a tree stump, and they think, "oh, there's that deep-rooted sectarianism." They don't think the opposite when they live their lives utterly untroubled by it.

Just because you are "untroubled" by it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Just as if you aren't black, you're unlikely to see as much anti-black abuse.

The graffiti and chants are outward signs. You can't dismiss the lodges and the football behaviour quite so easily. The lodges need organising, the football groups often are too, and descend into violence, even murder.

Deep rooted sectarianism comes down to things like job discrimination (well documented in Monklands, if you remember) etc

I doubt you live in any of these places, Anax, and neither do I, but if you spend long enough in them, it's in the air, and I've got pretty good evidence from people who live in these places that it's well entrenched. It's partly because some of the smaller towns and villages were deliberately set up by company bosses to split workers along religious lines.