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Religion and Atheism


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As "religion vs atheism" is all the rage in sections of the UK media right now, I thought it would be a good time to try and sort out my own views on the matter. However, given the huge mess of confusion surrounding the issue, I want to put forward the definitions I?m using first (backed, I'm pretty sure, by most major dictionaries): Religion - worldview based around the concept of a divine being Atheism - lack of belief in the existence of divine beings Agnosticism - belief that the question of the existence of divine beings is unanswerable, and therefore meaningless Materialism - belief that the world is governed by natural (as opposed to supernatural or divine) forces Faith - belief in something regardless of the evidence Reason - proportioning the strength of a belief to the available evidence Now, with these definitions we're in a position to tackle some of the arguments floating about. However, I want to briefly comment on the word "belief": it isn't exclusively religious, and can refer to any idea or concept which we hold to be true. A belief can either a matter of faith or reason, depending on how it relates to the evidence. Atheism: Lacking a concept of a divine being, the core of the definition, it therefore cannot be a religious belief. Nor is it strictly a proper worldview. When people refer to atheists, they normally have in mind either humanists, nihilists, materialists, etc. each of which is a view about the nature of the universe (and often the values which stem from it) - something atheism on its own (consisting only of a disbelief) clearly isn't. Each of these is also a belief, the validity of which depends on the amount and consistency of the evidence brought forward to support it. Religion: The belief that the universe was created and guided by a divine being (or beings) can be either a matter of faith (if held regardless of evidence) or reason (if the believer claims evidence in support of it). Conclusion: If religious or non-religious views are held as a matter of faith, then no real debate is possible - as the faithful simply restrict themselves to picking at flaws in opposing arguments, while never admitting the possibility of any in their own. If these views are based on reason, then debates can proceed simply through evaluation of the evidence put forward. The best way - discovered so far - is the use of scientific method*. [*Science, properly understood, isn't really a worldview either: consisting as it does of simply a method of evaluation and the bulk of knowledge acquired through it.]


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Re: Religion and Atheism



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Re: Religion and Atheism
Billy, Newton was a great scientist but that does not make him right on everything. He also spent a good deal of his life trying to turn base metal into gold and made terrible financial investments. There can never be proof of non existence of God so people who believe are on to a safe bet against "logical" arguments. There could be some proof of the existence of course, in the sense that a being could arrive on earth with all the attributes that a person's idea of God may have. If all these proofs conformed to that person's image of God, would that make this being God, or just a God to him and some others?




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Re: Religion and Atheism
Scientifically minded people would apply Occams razor whereby they would take the simplest solution until proven that it was no longer viable. There is no insult to anyone in saying Newton was imperfect, surely. I am not sure it is meaningful to have people on a sliding scale between Dawkins and Newton either. Newton was a man of his time and whether, if he was alive today, he would reach the same conclusions is open to question.



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Re: Religion and Atheism
Matt, I think the question of existence of divine beings is unknowable and therefore, logically, that would make me agnostic. On the other hand, I prefer to refer to myself as atheist because, unless one uses language as it is used in everyday conversation, it is too easy to get bogged down in pedantic arguments over definitions. My position is close to what is known as a "logical positivist" approach. When it comes down to use of language in such a precise way, we can never be said to "know" anything because proofs only work on the basis of logical deduction from a set of assumed premises. In this sense, saying the existence of divine beings is unknowable is not saying anything at all, as there is nothing that is really knowable. To me there is no reasonable, testable, evidence that there are divine beings and so I would see no more reason to believe in them than to believe that the other side of the moon is made of cheese. It seems that such belief has no value but can just aid the tendancy to tribalism, setting groups against each other, or to irrational views in place of reason. Arguments that so many others have such a belief is also an argument against the existence of such beings, as these beliefs have one or more supernatural beings at the cores of the beliefs which have different characteristics leading to the question as to which is right.



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Re: Religion and Atheism
That was very interesting to read. Really puts some thoughts into process. http://www.thebusinesssuccessgroup.com/Government-Funding.html



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Re: Religion and Atheism
What's all this fuss about 'faith'? Faith is institutionalised pre-rational thinking - no less, no more. Long, long ago - before the rational mind gained a toehold, small groups of hunter-gatherers wandered hither and thither. Their Weltanschauung was animistic, a world of spirits. Every object in nature had an indwelling and animating spirit. Here we have man's earliest pre-rational creation. Keep in mind that pre-rational thinking is strictly concrete. Abstractions (the foundation of rationality) do not exist in the pre-rational world. Where the rational mind would use an abstraction, the pre-rational mind is limited to inventing something concrete. That's how belief in spirits came about. Pre-rational humans created the spirit or soul to mean the concrete and animating entity present in all things. The rational mind dumps the concrete entity




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Re: Religion and Atheism
a choke or two to the animists who are being exterminated in the Sudan,Billy_Coconut Ignorance, as illustrated by this reference to the current conflict in the Sudan, which is actually a case of Muslims being attacked by Muslims.




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Re: Religion and Atheism
And muslim Militias, often self-described as Arab, have for several years been murdering the preeminently black, christian and/or animist populations of the southern Sudan.Billy_Coconut The conflict in Darfur is between rebels and Janjaweed, serving as government proxies, who are preying on the Muslim civilian population. The conflict in Southern Sudan ended years ago.




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Re: Religion and Atheism
Peace talks gained momentum in 2002-04 with the signing of several accords; a final Naivasha peace treaty of January 2005 granted the southern rebels autonomy for six years, after which a referendum for independence is scheduled to be held. A separate conflict that broke out in the western region of Darfur in 2003 has resulted in at least 200,000 deaths and nearly 2 million displaced CIA WORLD FACTBOOK




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Re: Religion and Atheism
the much deranged apologist of crimes against humanityBilly_Coconut As you may be able to read, the information I gave you on the current situation in Sudan comes from the CIA World Factbook. In providing the ignorant with information, I made no statement as to the moral stance of the CIA in regard to the facts it records.




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Re: Religion and Atheism
The World Factbook is the publication of the CIA, an American government agency. As its name implies, it deals in facts.




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Re: Religion and Atheism
I would never smear a coconut, whatever its name. There is no dispute that the conflict in Southern Sudan was brought to an end by a peace treaty and that another conflict is ongoing in Darfur where those involved are Muslim on both sides.




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Re: Religion and Atheism
would rather slander the Israelis, than acknowledge the crimes of the muslimsBilly_Coconut There is no difficulty about 'acknowledging' media reports of a 1,000 Lebanese civilians killed by the Israelis or the 44 Israeli civilians killed by Hizbollah, in the recent 'war'. This does not constitute slander of either party. Their religious affiliations are an element in the analysis of the conflict, but I wouldn't give them the importance that you seem to do, since continued Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights and adjacent territory is the contentious issue whose resolution would be a first step in reducing tension. In the case of the Darfur conflict, religion is not an issue at all, since both sides have the same religion. As to the civil war involving Southern Sudan, this has, fortunately, been resolve by a peace agreement. This and the other facts can be found at, among other places, the CIA World Factbook, so you have no excuse for remaining in the dark about them.



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Re: Religion and Atheism
PLS READ ONE OF THE ARTICLE BY CLCKING ON LOOK FOR THE SITE BELOW THE PAGE Preface Chapter 1 Some Evidence for the Truth of Islam (1) The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran A) The Quran on Human Embryonic Development B) The Quran on Mountains C) The Quran on the Origin of the Universe D) The Quran on the Cerebrum E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers F) The Quran on Deeps Seas and Internal Waves G) The Quran on Clouds H) Scientists Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran (with RealPlayer Video) (2) The Great Challenge to Produce One Chapter Like the Chapters of the Holy Quran (3) Biblical Prophecies on the Advent of Muhammad , the Prophet of Islam (4) The Verses in the Quran That Mention Future Events Which Later Came to Pass (5) Miracles Performed by the Prophet Muhammad (6) The Simple Life of Muhammad (7) The Phenomenal Growth of Islam Chapter 2 Some Benefits of Islam (1) The Door to Eternal Paradise (2) Salvation from Hellfire (3) Real Happiness and Inner Peace (4) Forgiveness for All Previous Sins Chapter 3 General Information on Islam What Is Islam? Some Basic Islamic Beliefs 1) Belief in God 2) Belief in the Angels 3) Belief in Gods Revealed Books 4) Belief in the Prophets and Messengers of God 5) Belief in the Day of Judgment 6) Belief in Al-Qadar Is There Any Sacred Source Other than the Quran? Examples of the Prophet Muhammads Sayings What Does Islam Say about the Day of Judgment? How Does Someone Become a Muslim? What Is the Quran About? Who Is the Prophet Muhammad ? How Did the Spread of Islam Affect the Development of Science? What Do Muslims Believe about Jesus? What Does Islam Say about Terrorism? Human Rights and Justice in Islam What Is the Status of Women in Islam? The Family in Islam How Do Muslims Treat the Elderly? What Are the Five Pillars of Islam? 1) The Testimony of Faith 2) Prayer 3) Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy) 4) Fasting the Month of Ramadan 5) The Pilgrimage to Makkah Islam in the United States http://www.islam-guide.com/contents-wide.htm



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Re: Religion and Atheism
PLEASE IGNORE: just for englishman Hello again Englishman, Okay, here is the problem. I have been reading on String theory. But the problem is more I read about it, more I get lost. As I understand it, the theory is very speculative. Would you please recommend me some book? Please, I want something that I can chew on. :-) That?s all for now. I didn?t like the way they talk about in the internet. Thank you.



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Re: Religion and Atheism
Zamantheman, I would love to be able to help you here, but I confess that String Theory is not a subject that I understand except on a very crude level. I would like to understand it more but it is very mathematical and not very intuitive (at least to me). To understand string theory properly you need to have a good grasp of advanced mathematics and have gone beyond degree level physics. You also need to have a lot of time and interest or, alternativley, be a genius! Regrettably, I fail to meet any of the requirements. Are you studying Physics or working in the field?



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Re: Religion and Atheism
If only it were so in America as well, Matt. Questioning the core faiths or for that matter any faith seems more than politically incorrect these days. I am not the advocate of nothing, as the atheist would appear to be. I am though, a believer in learning more of what I determine is necessary for a quality of life. Simplicity is a much needed ingredient in my daily journey because I value time more today then ever before. I have no room for guilt and shame or those who use it to motivate and control the masses. Today, I just am; I refuse to title myself as anything but another man, living and learning. Religion lost me, not the other way around. I gave it a long and intense tryout; years of participation, study and belief. What is lost by every religious order is that man is no longer always a fool. Promises of the hereafter, treasures, virgins and loved ones to just name a few allow the more cunning to pacify the weak. Better that you show the virtue of your life in your daily actions and allow the rest of us the freedom to decide if the path you walk is worth following. I no longer need the pathetic justifications of a believer endlessly spewing dogma for the sake of my soul. I was not broken or sinful at birth needing a savior to clear a path to heaven in my stead. I was created by my parents, in their image and I live today by the choices I make.