Pleased you approve of my post Brendan. You encourage me to add to it. A rational response to the standard questions posed by religious organisations. What is the point of life? Need there be a point. Nature instructs all of life to reproduce; to what end, we just dont know & it is most likely that we never will. We can speculate, but are very far short of the necessary knowledge to form a valid judgement! Certainly, lifes purpose cannot be identified by any ancient decrepit Belief! Nature, red in tooth & claw, is pitilessly indifferent to an individuals quality of life; the fittest for any environment will prosper. Individual quality of life is a lottery. We have arrived & must make the best of it. Self-deceivers pray for Ethereal help; none is discernable - - - Quite definitely a DIY job! We live, utilising facts that the experience of life plus research, provides! The paralogism of religious charlatans cannot match the knowledge we now possess, scant though it be. Mystical Theosophy is drivel of the first order. What happens when we die? Starkly, when the brain ceases to function, that being ceases to be. The motivation driving that unique combination of elements is no more! A Spiritual Future ????? - - - Pure self-indulgent fantasy! The chemo-electrical activity of the brain the mind is capable of generating any illusive mirage. If that imagery is not backed up by factual proof, it remains a fantasy. To give any credence to life after death, one must be round the bend, if not well up the straight! Natural cognition common sense, affirms lifes future as solely dependent on reproduction! Is forgiveness possible? With almost limitless mutations possible, genetic functioning can be expected to produce individuals with characteristics of an exceedingly complex gradation, in a myriad of aspects eg - - - Brilliant to Thick Jovial to Morose Benign to Sadistic Hetero to Homo ad inf. Religions provide a very accessible dump for the guilt generated by the various indiscretions to which all humans must, in some respect, be victim. Lifes make-up is experimental; perfection is illusory. Do not kid thyself No one is immaculate! Those of us gifted with conscience & a degree of normalcy just have to live with the unfortunates & scallywags amongst whom - the Con Men - enjoying a very comfortable living with their pretentious Divine prognostications! Further thoughts With the barbarous & brutal acts of differing factions, the mutiplicity of silly Beliefs has always been a handicap that humanity can well do without. Common sense must prevail! As the sponge-like mind of an infant readily absorbs info, authentic or fallacious, in teaching the necessary basics of life, the follies of illogical & delusory religions should be emphasized - - - Strongly! Offspring should be brought up from birth unprimed with needless pestilential beliefs. - - - Glaringly Obvious! Preachers pontificate on a subject so Holey, it is artlessly transparent. Visualise benighted origins & it is quite obvious that the early human mind was bound to generate mythological imagery of an Elysian nature & from there, receptive fanciful minds took over. Beliefs were surely born of ignorance & fear of the unknown! With this realisation, why cannot we all recognise simple basic facts & treat all faiths of today as ever they really were - - - A continuing evolution of irrational early thought. In this more enlightened age - Pure Phantasmic Godswallop! The Rt Rev Fred Flintstone & his equally-misguided confederates of all other Faiths should have dug themselves out of the Stone-age long long ago! The Past is unveiled thro Time! Lets all Profit from it! - Not Perpetuate it! - - - - A m e n

Bill, In this point we totally agree: this is a do-it-yourself world. This world is what we make of it. I would start by supporting your displeasure for restrictive and dogmatic belief. I think any dogmatic system is bound to serve the interests of man and not God. However I would disagree with you in several other issues. You may notice that I have spoken of God, but in an uncommitted sense. I have no data to claim that he exists or not, therefore I will not take a position. You see, intolerance is a two way road, you can have religious intolerance and you can have anti-religious intolerance. What is usually lost is the objectivity of supporting our ideas with facts. In the absence of facts you cannot prove anything. You provide a biological reason for life, as life is nothing more that reproduction. I may agree that our life must be in harmony with our biological nature and our environment, and this is something that man has forgotten. However, I would not attribute the meaning of life only to the biological aspect of it: it is too limitative. Without other considerations we might end up in a senseless population explosion without any regard for the resources to maintain this population. No better than brainless virus, nature has a few mechanisms to deal with such suicidal species. I spent a long time looking for meanings, and possibly the best conclusion I reached is that our role is to evolve, individually and as a specie. Intellectual freedom is indispensable to perform such task. There cannot be any constrains to the avenues of development we seek as individuals. Ultimately the price of failure is ours to pay, so every choice should be of our responsibility. Interference from others, dictating what is permitted or not, is morally unacceptable. And finally I would remind you that common sense is not the best tool at your hands. Common sense would say the earth could not be round and that the sun is rotating in the sky - don't you see it? Many scientific notions defy "common sense", like the wave/particle duality. How can matter be simultaneously two different things? I would offer you another tool for the human development: open mind.

My first post, with the same title, has disappeared from this Web-Site. God knows where it has gone! I have combined it with the second. - more sensibly formulated. ? - Who Needs Absurd ‘Beliefs’ - ? Reflections of an Octogenarian. Religiosity? – Throughout life, I’ve never regarded this subject as deserving of any serious thought - - - However, with quietus in the offing, the excessive religious coverage in the media inevitably agitates the neurons. Of late, these irritants have provoked a deep re-appraisal - - - that has utterly confirmed my basic intuition! ****************************** Logical conclusions after a lifetime of listening inadvertently to the delusive portents of various ‘Faiths’. A simple story. No need for the meandrine moonshine of ‘erudite intelligentsia’. Just take yourself back in time & examine unvarnished facts. Please acknowledge that the primitive mind was bound to generate quite naturally, mythological imagery of an Elysian nature. Also, one must accept that the relative ignorance of early Humanity, coupled with understandable fears of the unknown, provided those individuals seeking power over their fellows - a natural human trait - with the conditions to set up as Medicine-Men - Witch-Doctors - Sorcerers - Soothsayers - - - et al, all claiming to have insights & contact with a ‘power’ - of sorts. So began the blight of Shamanism - - - leading on to airy-fairy religions. As time unveiled the past, these facts have not been fully appreciated; hence - the ensuing rash of religiosity has not been branded for what it really is - - - An early conceive - of ignorance & apprehension - - - Perpetuated thro millennia by IMPOSTORS - Preying on credulous naivety. The natural process of evolution, via many devious pious paths, has now landed us with the present crop of Archbishops - Ayatollahs - Rabbis - Popes - Imams - JWs - & a host of other hypocritical sect leaders, incessantly brainwashing the largely unthinking masses with their ridiculous & childish ‘Holy Beliefs’. The Billy Grahams of the world, gifted with gab & showmanship, use their ‘bewitching powers’ to prey on the gullibility of the artless. Yes indeed, in modern form, the Witch-Doctors are still at it! - - - Mountebanks All! With it’s initiation as above, religiosity can’t be recognised by any sane person to have the gravitas necessary for any authentic ‘Belief’. Seeking reality is anathema to the pious ones. They critically comment on facts of life that are painstakenly unearthed by the practical hard-working talents of seekers of truth. Knowledge of physics & biology would never have advanced if left to ‘Holy’ men. Sun would still be orbiting Earth. The dim past is their’s, with mystical rites that are still prevalent, albeit with modern trappings. They are an absurdity! Their endeavours to exalt religiosity by the erection of ever more imposing ‘Places of Worship’ merely highlights – Monumentally – the benighted phases of Man’s past. - - - Hell’s Bells! - - - What a shambles! Weighing up the World-wide situation, a substantial proportion of Humanity are unable to let go of their forebears’ primitive ‘belief’ in a Creator that demands a daily dose of supplication. A person’s specific ‘belief’ is dictated by that part of the globe from where they originated; a simple inheritance of the parents’ unreal ancestral teachings, largely unquestioned! No need to be a ‘Religious Scholar’, what a fatuous preoccupation, to comprehend why all of this utter humbug survives. Persistent indoctrination over millennia leave the susceptible with feelings of unease when they attempt to ditch the ingrained silly ‘beliefs’ inherited from similarly misinformed forebears. Most take an apathetic route & run with the various childish theosophical myths passed down through the generations via pious, shallow-thinking naivety - preferring illusion to reality - fantasy to truth. It has always been decreed that the only way forward is the utilizisation of everyday experience & research, ie, pure evidential communal common-sense. The need to consult Biblical, Qur’anic, or any other ancient crap-laden fairy tales in order to pursue a decent & considerate existence beggars belief. Ethics evolve naturally. The facts listed above are beyond dispute – Theism? / Divinity? – All absolute Man-made hokum! Any thinking person realises that the Universe is truly an awesome Quantum / Astronomical creation. As part of that creation, our attempts at it’s full understanding seem futile. Probing the Atom or ‘Heavenly’ space & we’re contemplating Infinities. Fouling up our minds with a rag-bag of archaic religiose twaddle does nothing to help enlighten our ignorance! Anyone taking this farcical subject seriously has to be absolutely pickled in traditional folklore and/or in a sad mental state. Using it’s bogus validity for an easy living and/or monetary gain it’s impostrous practitioners must have no damn conscience at all. Far too much reverence is devoted to the abstract of religiosity. Vast volumes of impotent bombastic rhetoric has been generated by self-righteous con-men who use their dominant & deceitful acumen to sublimely charm others to wander in an unreal ‘Spiritual Wonderland’ that is totally unworthy of any honest contemplation! *********************************************** A rational response to the ‘standard’ questions posed by religious organisations. What is the point of life? Need there be a ‘point’. Nature instructs all of life to reproduce; to what end, we just don’t know & it’s most likely that we never will. We can speculate, but are very far short of the necessary knowledge to form a valid judgement! Certainly, life’s purpose cannot be identified by any ancient decrepit ‘Belief’! Nature, red in tooth & claw, is pitilessly indifferent to an individual’s quality of life; the fittest for any environment will prosper. Individual quality of life is a lottery. We have arrived & must make the best of it. Self-deceivers pray for Ethereal help; none is discernable - - - Quite definitely a DIY job! We live, utilising facts that the experience of life plus research, provides! The paralogism of religious charlatans can’t match the knowledge we now possess, scant though it be. Mystical Theosophy is drivel of the first order. What happens when we die? Starkly, when the brain ceases to function, that ‘being’ ceases to ‘be’. The motivation driving that unique combination of elements is no more! A ‘Spiritual Future’ ????? - - - Pure self-indulgent fantasy! The chemo-electrical activity of the brain – the mind – is capable of generating any illusive mirage. If that imagery is not backed up by factual proof, it remains a fantasy. To give any credence to life after death, one must be round the bend, if not well up the straight! Natural cognition (common sense), affirms life’s future as solely dependent on reproduction! Is forgiveness possible? With almost limitless mutations possible, genetic functioning can be expected to produce individuals with characteristics of an exceedingly complex gradation, in a myriad of aspects – eg - - - Brilliant to Thick – Jovial to Morose – Benign to Sadistic – Hetero to Homo – ad inf. Religions provide a very accessible dump for the perceived guilt generated by the various indiscretions to which all humans must, in some respect, be victim. Humanity’s make-up is far too diverse for perfection. Do not kid thyself – No one is immaculate! Those gifted with conscience & a degree of ‘normalcy’ just have to live with the unfortunates & scallywags – amongst the latter - the Con Men - enjoying a very comfortable living with their pretentious Divine prognostications! Further thoughts With the barbarous & brutal acts of differing factions, the mutiplicity of silly ‘Beliefs’ has always been a handicap that humanity can well do without. - - - Common sense must prevail! As the sponge-like mind of an infant readily absorbs info, authentic or fallacious, in teaching the necessary basics of life, the follies of illogical & delusory religions should be emphasized - - - Strongly! Offspring should be brought up from birth unprimed with needless pestilential ‘beliefs’. - - - Glaringly Obvious! Preachers pontificate on a subject so Holey, it is artlessly transparent. Visualise it’s benighted origins & it’s quite obvious that the early human mind was bound to generate mythological imagery of an Elysian nature & from there, receptive fanciful minds took over. ‘Beliefs’ were surely born of ignorance & fear of the unknown! With this realisation, why can’t we all recognise simple basic facts & treat all ‘faiths’ of today as ever they really were - - - A continuing evolution of irrational early thought. In this more enlightened age - Pure Phantasmic Godswallop! The Rt Rev Fred Flintstone & his equally-misguided confederates of all other ‘Faiths’ should have dug themselves out of the Stone-age long long ago! The Past is unveiled thro Time! Let us all Profit from it! - Not Perpetuate it! - - - - A m e n

What has hatred got to do with it. In political discussions, there is nothing surprising in strong disagreement with opponents. Apparently, religious people demand to be treated with kid gloves. If they are derided forcibly, they squeal about 'hatred'.

Robert I do not assume any pointed title. A natural view of life is all that I ever needed to get by. I take cognisance of all of the God-driven verbiage that is broadcast & in print & ask myself why people still deliberately set out to convince others of an Almighty existence when to date, there is absolutely no proof whatever? They’re not kidding me that they actually believe in a God they’ve never seen or ever likely to. They can’t be all that thick! The sole reason for the public preaching of this composted crap has to be - Why soil one’s hands for a living when all that is needed is to preach a line that susceptible individuals subscribe to so generously with very little real thought. The instigators way back then were called Witch-Doctors / Sorcerers etc. They now have a much more sophisticated title, Archbishops / Ayatollahs etc (1st post). In the past their profits were - a great respect for their knowledgeable insight, with the obvious benefits of those days; surely we now recognise this as the result of sheer primitive ignorance coupled with a desire for reassurance. As of now, the monetary profits are enormous & could be put to much better use. I get more & more derisive of these Impostors, for that’s all they are & ever have been. It really pains me! World wide, the various flavours of religion have caused & will continue to cause immense bother; I’m quite certain that evolution will see this anachronism off. However, evolution itself is an Almighty slow process.

Robert One has largely to agree with you. As you say, basic characteristics of the mind such as morality, ethics, & social behaviour evolve quite naturally, mostly in a postive manner. We live & learn. Unfortunately, religiosity is another attribute that we should long ago have recognised as a fantasy & which has not yet been rectified normally by logical evolvement, due in large part to the natural human frailty of follow your leader. I’m afraid we’ll have to give it more time to evolve. As of now, there can be no valid excuse to believe in fairy tales. Intellectual cognisance should have long passed that stage. One must continue to deride the Impostors who keep pushing them. ‘Normal’ persons, reared minus the pestilential beliefs in Gods, realise that ‘celestial beings’ can only reside in thought; no real ‘body’ can be ascribed to them. However, making these thoughts universal is one hell of a job. We must try, for these ‘beliefs’ have been & continue to be, the most potent basic cause of conflict between humans. Spirituality can be a comfort but really is pure self-indulgent fantasy.

Confirmation of the Theory that religiosity/spiritualism is innate in men, hard-wired as it is in the brain by thousand of years of evolution, comes also from the work of Emmanuel Anati, Paleonthologist, Director of the Camunal Center of Prehistoric Studies, and discoverer of Har Karkom in the Negev Desert (Israel), the prehistoric mountain-sanctuary which seems to be the true inspiration for the Exodus Mountain. " Har Karkom, a holy place and a sacred mountain already in the Bronze Age, with shrines and altars, displays the richest concentration of rock art in the entire Sinai Peninsula. Here we know that Neolithic and Bronze Age rock art was produced in a place already sacred, since the mountain has remains of what appears to be a sanctuary of the Palaeolithic Age. Other examples can be found in the highlands of Malawi, where the Nyau society produces rock art in sacred caves in which ancestral spirits are said to live. Palaeolithic sanctuary caves of Western Europe are likely to have been both sacred and secret, and the same is true for many Australian Stone Age art sites, which have been used by Aborigines until historic times." By reading Professor Anati interpretations of his discoveries, it comes as a mind boggling revelation the fact that homo sapiens, intertwined art and spiritualism in his perennial effort to reach syntony with Nature, and all this without waiting for a Bible, or a Quran, or a Torah to guide him.

Robert The conclusion that religiosity has been hard-wired in the human brain for countless ages cannot be news to anyone who cares to consider the subject, even lightly. No need for any ‘mind-boggling revelations from erudite intelligentsia’ to put us wise. Religiosity clearly arose from a very fundamental cause; a fear of the unknown & uncertainty of the future; an entirely natural phenomenon that was BOUND to lead to mythological imagery in those days of meagre knowledge. ‘Sacred’ shrines will be numerous but are part of the primitve scene. So-called art will follow the line. Surely nothing unusual there. For me, what IS mind boggling is the fact that religiosity is still prevalent today. It shows that those concerned with Humanity’s enlightenment have failed abysmally to relate to the true situation. Charlatans galore. The more one listens to the proclamations of religious leaders of their belief in a supernatural being, plainly the dafter it gets. They’ve taken a fair section of the World’s population for a long long ride! & still doing well from it. Impostors all! Beliefs are of the past. We should allow them to rot. It’s factual truth we should be striving for.

"The conclusion that religiosity has been resident in the human brain for countless ages cannot be news to anyone who has bothered to consider the subject, even lightly. No need for ‘mind-boggling revelations’ from erudite intelligentsia to put us wise."(bill) In the field of religion/spirituality, not everybody is an 'erudite intellighentsia' as you put it. Even in the XXI Century there still are people -- and not all of them brain dead -- who believe in revelations rather than electrochemical circuitry as the source of Faith. And then, there are those who accept the electrochemical circuitry but argue that the first spark came from God. Impossible to demonstrate but equally impossible to refute. In one of my previous posts, I mention the diatribe between Theo Hobson and the Atheists Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and AC. Grayling, and suggest that, while the Atheists are absolutely right in fighting the neo-obscurantistic tendency to demean Reason and Science and Progress, perhaps the door should be left open to the possibility that the initial spark, which started to transform a bestial proto-human into an artist cum spirituality, may not have been entirely casual.

bill, I seem to detect in your posts an animosity that can only be explained by you having suffered a big disappointment: Yes, at some point in time you may have believed in the possible existence of something trascendental, but then the Impostors have robbed you of your phantasy. F...k the Impostors, let just yourself go and, once in a while think: Well, what if? After all, our Universe is not the only one, and probably we are not alone. How did it all start? How will it end? And then you come back to Earth, grab a good beer and say: 'Who knows?', and then: 'Who cares'; and go back on living.

There you are Bill: You are an Agnostic like me. And the difference between us and Atheists is not just a question of degree but of kind. Contrary to Atheists, militant or not, Agnostics keep an open mind since it is impossible to answer to the Big Question. It is not just sitting on a fence and being afraid to take a stance but, in my view and at the present state of our knowledge, it is much more smart to say 'I dont know' rather than 'God is or is not'. This is the reason I object both to militant clerics as well as to militant seculars: We should be left to make our own minds.

Better to say that we are agnostic about the origins of life, but certain that all religious explanations these origins are false pretensions. Religion has destroyed the credibility of the concept of a 'creator' by allotting motives to this creator as well as nonsensical ideas such as 'he made us in his own image' which is irksome garbage.

Rob - Are you reading me right. Repeat - God belief, in this day, should be recognised for what it really is. Worthless primeval piffle. Should not be an issue. My initial post describes it’s primitive beginnings. Now, as regards the Creation of the Universe or Universes How did it all start? – How will it end? - No one knows. The above statements do not label me Agnostic or Atheist. I’m just an ordinary bloke. I see no reason for a silly tag.

"The above statements do not label me Agnostic or Atheist. I’m just an ordinary bloke."(Bill) No Bill, you are not an ordinary bloke. Ordinary blokes write about cricket, or baseball, or football. They discuss about different brands of beer , or about movies, or sex. You discuss about Religion and God and the origin of life. This qualifies you for a tag of Philosopher and Agnostic.

Rob – Re your comments on ordinary blokes. I still take in both Cricket & Football, but not very enthusiastically. Being, in the distant past, a ‘supporter’ of Newcastle United, you can probably understand why. Also, at the age of 86 yrs, beer, movies & the other thing you mentioned (forget what it was) no longer engenders any great enthusiasm for discussion. Sad to say, but as I’ve said before, I’m obliged to face facts. About the only pleasure I get nowadays is endeavouring to kick the backsides of those geezers who tell me I should repent & be ready to rejoin my maker. If I eventually get up there (I hope it’ll be up & not down) I shall demand a full explanation of Creation’s workings & plead for a a much better position in the next life. I’ve an idea that He’ll not listen. He’ll probably ignore me as I’ve ignored Him in all of life. Philosopher Bill - - - - - - - - hee-hee-hee - - - -

Bill, Since myself I'm not a young chick anymore, I can fully understand your feelings and empathise. As for assuaging your fear of Hell, all I can do is copy in its entirety a previous post. "Re: Religion is rotten science Posted: 21-Apr-2007 13:13 Fellow coreligionists rejoice: the Limbo is no more, it's an ex-Limbo, it's a defunct Limbo, it's a stiff Limbo. Pope Benedict XVI, the Theologian, the only man on Earth licensed to speak directly with the True God, in his infinite wisdom has decided to finally shut down the Limbo. All the unbaptized children condemned up to now to spend the Eternity in Limbo for having involuntarily committed the Original Sin, are now free to go to Heaven. All the parents who slaughter their children for whatever reason (eg: Abortion), can now do it more serenely, reassured that they will go straight to Heaven. Good news also for all Just Men living, according to Dante, (where else?) in Limbo for not being baptized (how could they?). Good and honest people like Virgil, Homer, Horace, Aristotle, Plato, Avicenna, Averroes, Saladdin, etc. I must compliment the Pope: "Jolly good move, Ratz. Now please, abolish also Hell before I die."

Robert When I take off I've no fears of going to Hell - or Heaven for that matter I'm 100% certain that I'll be well beyond caring whether I'll end up in either of the 100%-fictional abodes. Bothers me not in the slightest. It's the nature of the take-off that causes most people concern, not the choice of lounging on green pastures or having to tend fiery furnaces. **************************************************** Repeat Please acknowledge that the primitive mind was BOUND to generate mythological imagery of an Elysian nature, & also, one must accept that the relative ignorance of early Man, coupled with understandable fears of the unknown, provided those individuals seeking power over their fellows - A NATURAL HUMAN TRAIT - with the conditions to set up as Medicine Men - Witch-Doctors - Sorcerers - Soothsayers - et al, all claiming to have insights & contact with a 'power' - of sorts. The natural process of evolution, via many devious pious paths, have replaced the above motley titles with the present crop of pretentious Divine 'con-men' - Archbishops - Ayatollahs - Rabbis - Popes - Imams - plus a host of other deceptionists. I think you'll agree.

['I'll summarize his thinking for you: "God doesn't exist because nobody has ever seen Him.'] Robert Robert, I may not have read any of Dawkins books but I am aware of most of the arguments he presents to support his claims. And for the record, the central argument Dawkin relies on is what he calls the 'laws of probability'...I would elaborate, but what's the point.

Just thought I'd add my tuppence worth. Having devoted a fair bit of time to thinking over the God(s) hypothesis, I now regard myself as both agnostic (in the sense that I don't believe we can ever be truly certain of any proposition) and atheist (in the sense that I don't have any religious beliefs). I also know that I'm not alone in this - just to namedrop, Bertrand Russell apparently thought along very similar lines (though no doubt his thoughts were a lot more insightful and coherent than mine). What this boils down to is that I consider the God(s) hypothesis extremely implausible: I've never had any experience that I'd characterise as religious, nor have I ever encountered a convincing argument in its favour. As such I base my life upon atheistic values. I also weigh in against arguments I disagree with - though, obviously, that's not limited to purely religious issues. From what I've read of Dawkins, and I have to admit that I find his ideas on genetics far more interesting than his ideas on religion, it would seem that our positions aren't that far apart.

"What is the point of life? Need there be a point." To most of people, yes. Some people find the point in religion, others in liberating from religion, people who do not feel emprisoned by it. "Nature instructs all of life to reproduce" What are homosexuals, then: bad students? "to what end, we just don't know." Well, you may not know. But Leonardo knew what his purpose was: to create art. So did Mother Theresa: to heal sickly people. And Donald Trump also has a purpose: to screw pigeons. "Certainly, lifes purpose cannot be identified by any ancient decrepit Belief!" Plenty of people would disagree with that: those who believe in the ancient beliefs of Buddha; those who believe in the ancient beliefs of Christ; those who believe in the ancient beliefs of Muhammad Ali; those who believe in the ancient beliefs of Confucius; and also those who believe in the ancient beliefs of Epicure... "Nature, red in tooth & claw, is pitilessly indifferent to an individuals quality of life" Oh really? Aren't mother's natural beings? And aren't mothers concerned with the quality of life of their children? I'll let you ponder and develop that point if you can. "Individual quality of life is a lottery." If that is so, why do the children of the rich tend to lead richly, while the children of the poor tend to live poorly? "Self-deceivers pray for Ethereal help; none is discernable." To you, obviously not; you must lack that inner eye! But plenty of others have felt they owed their successes and good fortunes, to a force superior to themselves and independent from their will. "We live, utilising facts that the experience of life plus research, provides!" Research? are you saying scholars are better adapted than business people, lawyers, mafiosis? The paralogism of religious charlatans..." You assert religious people are charlatans, you do not prove it. "...cannot match the knowledge we now possess" What are you saying? That you are more knowledgeable than Copernicus and Gregor Mendel, both of whom were monks, and presumebly therefore, charlatans? "What happens when we die? Starkly, when the brain ceases to function, that being ceases to be." How do you know that? Did you die and experience inexistence, first hand? Or did God tell you: "there's nothing out there, don't believe the Christians" "The motivation driving that unique combination of elements is no more!" So, you believe there is a motive behind that combination of atoms, a living creature? Doesn't that contradict everything you've been saying so far? "A Spiritual Future ????? --- Pure self-indulgent fantasy." Belief in final judgement and eternal damnation, self-indulgent? I don't think so. "The chemo-electrical activity of the brain is capable of generating any illusive mirage." Is the computor keyboard on which you typed these words an illusive mirage, or a reality? What's reality? Is the dream you had last time you had a dream, a reality, or a mirage? How do you know that? "If that imagery is not backed up by actual proof, it remains a fantasy." I'm glad to see you believe organic evolution remains a fantasy. Fiction. Science fiction.. After all, you never saw an amiba evolve into a monkey, did ya... "To give any credence to life after death, one must be round the bend, if not well up the straight!" Neither more nor less than to give credence to nothingness after death. Your confusion of philosophical beliefs with schyzophrenic ailments suggests a crass ignorance of both philosophy, and psychiatry. "Natural cognition common sense, affirms lifes future as solely dependent on reproduction!" Life in this world, maybe. But life in the next? How would you know? No one denies the existence of nature, and biological reproduction. But such realities in and of themselves are not the refutation of supernatural perceptions and beliefs. "Religions provide a very accessible dump for the guilt generated by the various indiscretions to which all humans must, in some respect, be victim." So, some religions offer forgiveness: what's wrong with that? "Do not kid thyself No one is immaculate!" That's what the christians have been saying all along: everyone's a sinner. What do you attack them if you agree with them? "Those of us gifted with conscience & a degree of normalcy" How self-righteous of you... "Common sense must prevail" A worthy dictate. Why don't you tell us what common sense is, and how to ensure it's victory. "Offspring should be brought up from birth unprimed with needless pestilential beliefs." Every one I know agrees with you on that point. But you have not given us a method -- other than your unsupported assertions -- to determine with any measure of certainty, which beliefs are pestilential, and which, agreeable to the senses. "Preachers pontificate on a subject so holey, it is artlessy transparent." Far from everyone agrees with that. And again, you do not explain to us why we should give more credibility to your beliefs, over the beliefs of religious people. "Beliefs were surely born of ignorance & fear of the unknown." Surely? Where's your proof? "In this more enlightened age - Pure Phantasmic Godswallop!" The age of Stalin, Mao and Bill Maher, enlightened?!!!! Pure Phantasmic Gullagswallop! "The Past is unveiled thro Time!' Hegel said it was the Spirit. You're no less kookey luney than he was, by your own standards. Inch Allah

"Religiosity? - Throughout life, I've never regarded this subject as deserving of any serious thought " How closed minded of you! "the delusive portents of various 'Faiths'." Delusive? How do you know that? Did God tell you the preachers were wrong? "Please acknowledge that the primitive mind was bound to generate quite naturally, mythological imagery of an Elysean nature." Sure, we'll do that, if you acknowledge the sophisticated minds of Plato and Dante have also believed in other wordly realities and rewards... "Also, one must accept that the relative ignorance of early humanity..." What's that? One must acept your tendacious and partisan as well as unproven speculation as to the origin of religion? Why? Are we living in a totalitarian tyranny? Are you the high commissioner for the one and only Dogma? "The natural process of evolution, via many devious paths, has now landed us with the present crop of Archbishops - Ayatollahs - Rabbis - Popes -Imams - JWs - & a host of other hypocritical sect leaders" Don't say things like that, fool!!! If the atheists hear evolution is responsible for religion, they'll cast doubt of Charles Darwin's theory and the Creationists will triumph... "religiosity can't be recognised by any sane person to have the gravitas necessary for any authentic 'Belief'." Sane and responsible people by the millions have believed religion has the gravitas necessary for authentic belief. But then they do not see in religion your caricature of it... "Knowledge of physics & biology would never have advanced if left to 'Holy' men." Oh really ?!!!! Wasn't Copernicus a monk? Did he not advance our knowledge of physics? Wasn't Isaac Newton a theologian? Did he not advance our knowledge of mechanics? Wasn't Pasteur an ultra-conservative Catholic? Did he not advance our knowledge of medicine and chemistry? Wasn't Gregor Mendel another monk? DId he not advance our knowledge of genetics? And Pierre Duhem? Don't you know about him too? You're so knowledgeable in the sciences. Did Pierre Duhem not advance our knowledge of thermodynamics? Was Duhem not another, ultra conservative, ultra militant catholic? You assume religion and knowledge of nature are incompatible. Why is that? Isn't nature to religious people the creation of God? Isn't religion therefore an inducement to study God's creation, so as to gain a better understanding of God? And would you have made such uninformed assumptions, if you had seriously studied physics, biology and religion before pontifying over these subjects? I think not. No knowledgeable person could. "Ethics evolve naturally" In an earlier post you claimed nature was tooth and claw, indifferent and without purpose; here you say there is ethics in nature. Isn't that contradictory? I mean, is a dog eat dog system ethical? You tell us, hotshot, since you know it all. "Theism? / Divinity? - All absolute Man-made hokum!" PROVE IT !!!! "Any thinking person realises that the Universe is truly an awesome Quantum / Astronomical creation." Any thinking person realises you don't understand the first word about quantum physics. And how can you claim to be a-theist and then claim the universe is created? I mean, if it is created, there must be a creator, no? To suggest otherwise would be as illogical as to claim paintings don't require painters to exist, or children procreators to be procreated. That wouldn't make sense, would it? "Probing the Atom or 'Heavenly 'space & we're contemplating Infinities." There you go again with your mystical musings.... "Far too much reverence is devoted to the abstract of religiosity." You certainly seem obsessed with that abstract, as you bizzarely refer to it...