Civil society tends to become a sort of artificial reservoir for an endangered species: the democratic intellectual, protected by the international institutions
Quote of the day
 Email & RSSSign up to oD's editorial summaries email:
 NavigationThe World
Our writersPopular ArticlesRecent: |
 |
Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
I don't know how much this has been reported elsewhere, but UK headlines have been about the former foreign secretary's remarks about preferring that Muslim women did not wear a veil. Initially his comment was about when he was talking to Muslim women as part of his job as an MP with a large Muslim population. Later, on questioning by the press, he said that he thought the veil was a barrier to integration generally, and elaborated on the problems of lack of recognition and lack of communication by facial expression. The Prime Minister's office has distanced itself from these remarks in saying that they were Jack Straw's own opinions and did not reflect any policy within the government.
It seems to me that Jack Straw probably genuinely believes what he said to be true, but one has to question whether someone as politically shrewd and intelligent as he is would have not considered the implications and effect of saying it would have in the current climate. It certainly has brought Jack Straw back into the limelight and also has won him some support amongst many in the UK who see the Niqab or Burqa as a symbol of Muslim's not wishing to be part of British society or of female repression rather than a religious choice by a small percentage of Muslim women.
Most Muslim's in the UK have not reacted with any anger but have felt that his remarks were ill chosen at this time. Some also have pointed out, correctly, that he was just stating his preference when talking with Muslim women and that he would not be offended if they simply refused to take off their veil.
Personally, I agree with Straw's comments and consider such dress ludicrous. Nonetheless if some women wish to wear it, it is up to them. One can, at least to some extent, compare such dress with a nun's habit perhaps, which is one that more in the west will be familiar with. The total covering of all skin seems over the top to me though, however religious the person feels. It does not engender respect for the woman and does not engender respect for any men at all, as presumably, it implies that the man cannot concentrate on other matters properly if distracted by a woman's visage.
I would be interested to hear any logical defence of the usage of such garb.
Message was edited by: englishman
Submitted on Sat, 2006-10-07 13:33
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
oD just published an interesting contribution to the debate:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/two_veils_3989.jsp
Although a good article overall, the author makes two points which I would take issue with:
Although the ?largely white, liberal, middle-class establishment? who criticize the veil may be doing so (but only in part, see below) because it is a symbol of oppression, it is stupid to lay into this group on the basis that (which is what he is saying) indirectly they are responsible for them turning to the veil. Why? Because this particular group were opposed to the governmental policies which took us to war in the Middle East. It?s just an easy conclusion to the article, to lay into the liberals.
Secondly, many people (broadening from the white middle class thing which he holds up) object to the veil not because it?s a symbol of oppression. They couldn?t care less. But because, as Jack Straw and Gordon Brown have stated, firstly, a massive dark shadow is a pretty shocking thing to see on the streets, and secondly it?s hard to establish human contact with the individuals inside. That?s certainly my point of view, and most people that I?ve talked to.
OK, he says we have ?ourselves to blame?? To draw a similarity, I guess it?s my fault when a parent I don?t know but part of the same human culture system as me, doesn?t bring up a teenager properly and he starts to hate the world and swear at me when I engage him in conversation. I should welcome his right to express himself in his own vernacular.
It?s part of my general problem with the far left thesis - humans are agents and have no free will and therefore cannot be blamed for their behaviour. Whatever.
Josh
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
I agree with David Shariatmadari's conclusion being too neat.
There are definitely issues to be explored about difference and feeling uncomfortable. My girlfriend went to the dentist today in London and said she was the only one in the waiting room NOT wearing a Burkha, which she said was a weird, dislocating experience. You dont feel dis-located as such when you travel abroad and our surrounded by muslim dress because you have chosen to remove yourself from a known environment and place yourself somewhere new and unrelated/unrelateable. Why do we feel sometimes uncomfortable in our own "home" environment. I think exploring this issue could get us somewhere.
Talking to Nuns is not dislocating because you can place them (and their dress) into an understood category. Maybe it is about education and understanding of Muslim dress and the reasons (cultural, historical, religious) behind it. All "other" cultures appear foreign/strange without such understanding.
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
Though I can intellectually understand the jarring sense of dislocation within the local space of the dentist's, I don't see where this becomes a political argument. To say, "My, isn't that odd, all these people going around in burkhas, I'm not sure if I like that," is one thing. For Jack Straw, a public and political figure, to say (and I paraphrase), "The veil is bad because I can't see your face when I talk to you" is entirely another. Argue against the veil because it's oppressive. Argue against it on concrete social grounds. Not because it is aesthetically shocking.
The whole point of an open society is that it is the only system that can accommodate difference (of all kinds -- though of course, not all difference must be accommodated) and change. If somehow what is being suggested here is that the covering up of a small number of women is a threat to the very social fabric of Britishness, then I'll have to rant on. Please don't make me.
Kanishk
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
It is non-political to state that you find the full veils unaesthetic and slightly menacing. It is also non-political to state that you don't like to talk to people wearing things that cover their face, whether crash helmets or full veils.
And the fact that certain politicians have lent their approval to such statements should not automatically make them political issues. What we are looking at is a public debate, not a political issue. After all, thus far no public policy decisions are being made, or laws being debated.
To answer your second point, I don't think that this issue is threatening the social fabric of society, but certainly if the number of people wearing full face covering continues to grow, there is ever more reason for a public debate to occur in order to understand whether indeed there will be consequences to such a development, and in order for all voices to be heard, whether for or against the veil.
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
The veil hides ones identity as well as expression. Has any of the discussion covered the idea that it may be illegal in the future to mask ones identity for whatever reason as it creates a massive hole in security? Why should someone be allowed to roam around without being identifiable?
This may be a prelude to further debate with more pragmatic goals. Floating the trial balloon so to speak.
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
you know, I only wear the hijab and have never considered wearing the niqab, because it feels too restricting, but lately the idea is looking more and more attractive just because people are popping up all over saying, you cant/shouldnt wear it. I think its the fact that it feels like its not a choice anymore.
and about the whole drivers license/passport thing, i think for that, the woman should wear a normal hijab to take the picture because i can understand the security issues
assasin garb, what is that suppose to mean steelers?
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
thought it would be crystal clear....have you ever seen pics of the japanese ninjas and assasins.....looks just like a muslim bitch in her hijaab and mask. (google is your friend, lol) I told you that in America, only criminals and terrorists wear masks....If you have any trouble finding pics of the two I will be happy to help you out....the resemblances are striking are they not? LOL!
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
wow...emannuel that was...lengthy and very educating.
Owly you act as if muslims have treated christians bad for their entire lives and christians havent done a thing to muslims. it goes both ways buddy. and what abulksaida said is true i was taught ( its in the Qu'ran) never to speak badly of christians and jews because even though they were not muslims they were still people of the book and worshipped the same God as us.
Even other muslims dont treat christians/jews well, its not the fault of the Qu'ran, its there own choosing
non-muslims arent aloud in mecca or meddina because its holy-land, i bet there just worried some typical muslim haters gonna come and destroy the Ka'aba or something, its for safe-keeping i guess. plus non-muslims arent interested in comming to mecca or medina because they want to learn more, my theory is that its thrill they find in there being 'forbidden cities'
so hey i guess i cleared up a misconception huh? all in a good days work
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
The US should say "hey no problem saudis, its your country, do with it what you want...which is just what they do:! The next step is to round up EVERY ARAB and EVERY MUSLIM, and deport to what every third world ME scumbag country they want to go to. The muslims have been sucking on the tit of humanity for far too long. Time for them to sink or swim on their own. Fat chance!
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
I hope the west leave us alone, and let us sink ,it is ok for first time, then we can manage, but the problem and that is our laypersons vision is west are the one who have much intrests in middle east and wants to take all oportunistics and benefits as oil, resources , good geography and also to let us forget our identity, this is what we are normal muslims think and I hope we are wrong for that. so the west can do favour for us if they leave us .
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
a woman in britain will get stared at for sure IF she is wearing a Burqa and veil. A woman in western clothes often won't get noticed. Moslem men ARE badly behaved and very disrespectful of women, perhaps they need protecting in a moslem country , but here they dont. We respect women a lot more than moslems, and don't lock our women indoors or cover them up like daleks.
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
keith
1- If I understand your post as I think, you are totally wrong, so how you respect western women when of course not all of them go to beaches and wearing what they want and undecently . I know it is your culture and I will not interfer or condemn,even if that is against our relegion , it is up to you in your society, but for us also I have a wright as a women to defend what we are believing.
2- e.g in the country Iam living , no body watch others exepet the women who dont wear decently and that is common in all countires muslims or christians , men are men from all over the world and wearing decently is a must to all women as in my opinion and it is practically we notice men respect women dressed decently more than the other, yes he looks to the other, but not respect her very much. I dont say that women is bad or not , may be she is better in her relegion than the covered, but as I know all relegions asked women to wear decently .
3- We think than muslim men respect women more than others and it is not only in the matter of dress, as they dont want others to look to their women as really we feel we are personal property for our husbands ,even if you dont like, it is spiritual feelings and of course we have to obey our relegion.
4- Yes many and not all christin men will let their wives wear what ever they want , but also some will go and sorry to say to mistress or girlfriends and others which in muslim countries are forbidden. women has respect when she is with a legitemate man through marriage contract and that is the real respect for us women as all of us lay persons see. thanks
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
that's right, it's not your country so mind your own business. We think that women are equal, so they do what they want without the men interfering. We don't think that polygamy, sexual mutilation, veiling and suchlike is respectful of women. We suggest you keep your customs in your countries, and conform in ours, or do not come here.
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
keith
1- Iam living not in your country and no body enforce other to live the way the other want, only opinions, also for us women we dont consider girlfriend is a respectful for women as the man has many girlfriend and also change her whenever he want or go to other.
2- also when the women shows all her beauty to all, so we feel that she is not for only her husband and of course men will see other women whom are more beautiful than her and may be her husband will leave her, what we think also when wearing scarf and decent , as also our husband will consider us the most beautiful and they will not see other women beautiful and that is enough for us and this is for the majority and of course there are difference.
3- what you consider is not respectful for us , we consider respectful and instead of the husband to go to other women illegally and as mestress ( it is irrespectful for the same women ) it is better to have a second wife with legal children and usually they will be half brothers or sisters and live together and that will protect the society, it is up to you to accept or not, iam exposing you to our culture and of course I dont like living in western countries as why? if I have everything in the arab muslim country and enjoy that system of life which let me feel obeying to God, so dont be afraid, I will never ever live and come to your country, and do what you beleive in, all of us free to do what we want and so also we have to take responsibilitiy for any mistake we did or wrong.
3- yes women and men are equal in sight of God, but there are biological and psychological differences and never will be the same .
Re: Should we draw a veil over Jack Staw's comments?
I have read most of the comments made on this discussion, and I would like to point out a few things.
Steelers, I have noticed that your conduct whilst expressing your views and opinions is very negative. You slander, and blatantly mock a religion which you evidently have very small knowledge of. I have read everything you have said, and use that to make my conclusion, I have not just made a judgement from thin air. I would advise you to first go out and do extensive research on the religion, not just exclaim from hearsay. Your attitude at the moment is disguisting, and whether or not you believe it is right for you to do so or not, it is not conduct of a mature adult.
How can you say that Islam is a religion that does not tolerate racial equality? That is totally unsupported - and I have proof in the prophet Muhammad (SAWS) sayings that you are wrong. I know you probably don't want o hear it, but if you don't want to hear evidence against you - then that is TOTAL proof of your ignorance to even a simple debate system.
The Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) says that there will be 71 sects in Christianity, 72 sects in Judaism, and 73 sects in Islam. One of those sects of Christianity will go to Heaven, one of those sects of Judaism will go to Heaven, and one of those sects in Islam will go to Heaven.
Here is direct proof that Islam preaches equality of races (in this case, the 'People of the Book' (i.e. Christians, Jews and Muslims). The Prophet himself is saying that there will be Christians, and that there will be Jews and Muslims all sharing the joys of Heaven. Is this equality? YES.
I have disproven one of your many ignorant points made, but like I said - I humbly request you to please do further research before you make your judgements.
Message was edited by: taiyab_raja
Message was edited by: taiyab_raja
Post new comment |
|
Elections Most discussed articles... |
Posts: 522
Joined: 2005-02-27