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Stop arguing about numbers


Posts: 6
Joined: 2005-08-10
As an Iraqi, i find the whole debate regarding the number of Iraqi deaths hugely offensive as it implies that there is an acceptable number.


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Posts: 1
Joined: 2007-06-07
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
Dear Alsultani, your point is very well taken. In my article, the issue is precisely to stop arguing about numbers and let them speak for themselves, for what they are voicing at the face of the world. No matter the actual tally, mortality figures tells in the aggregate the same unacceptable story of each tragic death. The argument is indeed to avoid substituting a sterile debate about the veracity of statistics to the political debate about why the conflict is getting out of control (which is precisely what these numbers attest). A review and analysis of the figures, is meant to reconcile the diverging views on numbers, and therefore to give a better chance for the political debate to take place. Thank you for your comment and good evening. Michel Thieren.
--

Hyperion




Posts: 6
Joined: 2005-08-10
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
Dear Michel, many thanks for your response. However, i disagree that numbers will have any influence on the political debate. I do not believe that people respond to numbers, however large. Rather, they respond to images and familiarity with the victims. Additionally, I think people respond to the way that deaths occur / the method of killing. The emotional response to the death of a few dozen in a terrorist act is generally much stronger than the response to news that X hundreds of thousands of African children will die from poverty by 2010. The political debate relating to Iraq is influenced by public opinion and public opinion will only be swayed when something happens that replaces the current numbness we all feel on news of more Iraqi deaths with something that triggers action.



Posts: 522
Joined: 2005-02-27
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
I largely agree with you, Alsutani. I think the main issue with the numbers in this case is not as much to do with how the public relate to such a number of deaths, but to the political significance of the number being rather more than had been killed under Saddam's reign. To the many liberals (and those ex-patriot Iraqis) who supported the war, the only justification was to rid the country of its dictator. The question is how does one define an amount of evil. By measures of death, hardship, the economy, prospects for the future? On all of these measures the result would suggest that life was better under Saddam. As an Iraqi, what do you think should have been done before the war? Should there have been a war? What was the alternative? Given where we are now, what should happen and what do you see as a likely outcome?



Posts: 6
Joined: 2005-08-10
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
Englishman...talking about the past is irrelevant at this stage. There was a lot that should and should not be done. But this is where we are now. I couldn't possibly begin to speculate as to what needs to be done because it is not even clear what is happening.



Posts: 474
Joined: 2004-05-05
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
I agree with you Alsultani. I posted this nearly two years ago - I'd be interested to know what you think. In our super high-tech media obsessed world, images are beginning to mean everything and the image of dead American soldiers, or dead Iraqis is fast becoming political currency for both sides of this necro-debate. The anti-war turnouts have seized on the 2000th US soldier killed on duty in Iraq as an argument for immediate troop withdrawal from Iraq. (1) Meanwhile, the pro-war brigade play the same game as their opponents, they love to dig-up old mass graves in Iraq - so they can display the dead bodies to a willing news media and speculate on how many more mass graves remain undiscovered in Iraq. The images of mass graves, or the chemical attack on Halabja are then deployed as a reason for war. (2) Images are considered by all sided to be far, far more important than having a clear and coherent argument. Real debates, like questioning the rights of Western states to militarily intervene into the internal affairs of Third world sovereign states are compromised by the relentless search for a picture of a steaming corpse, or the tears of a dead soldiers mother. Images of dead and mutilated bodies, or hyping up the 2000th dead soldier, or up-dating the body-count every 24 hours do not amount to having a real argument for the war, nor is it a real argument for opposing the war either. (3) For the pros and antis, images of the dead are more of a substitute for having a reasoned arguement. No need for a coherent arguement for war, or against the war in Iraq - just wheel out as many images of dead bodies in Iraq that you can find. The more images, the better for their arguement apparently. Indeed, according to one bloodthirsty anti-war activist / journalist, there hasn't been enough images of blood and gore to bolster the anti-war message. More blood, more guts, more gore, that's the message I get from the writer Michela Wrong, in her article for the prestigious New Statesmen. Michela is apparently livid at the outrageous lack of graphic violence on our screens today. (4) Oh? really? so all you need to do is bedazzle people with gruesome imagery of fallen soldiers, mangled civilians and abracadabra, all who see the message will be won over to the anti-war cause? These days, it seems the best way to put the leader of the most powerful country on earth on the defensive, is to just show him an image of something that makes America look bad. Who remembers how the image of a marine draping the Stars and Stripes over a 20ft statue of Saddam Hussein before they bulldozed it down, became the focus for controversy? (5) The panic reaction from the top US military brass to remove the flag was a powerful testimony to the level of importance attached to images from Iraq. US marines needed to communicate liberation, not occupation and domination. On the pro-war side numbers and images have gained the utmost of importance. Numbers and images are used at will, to compensate for the fact that the pro-war voices are bereft of a coherent reason for supporting our boys in Iraq. The Bush administration even ordered the complete ban of media coverage of fallen soldiers returning back to their military bases. (6) Then, there were the images of torture at Abu Ghraib, the US military run prison that caused great embarrassment to the Bush administration. Both sides have politicised images of the dead - the fact that images of dead bodies has become political currency for Western leaders and Western radicals is not lost on insurgents in Iraq. The more Western anti-war journalists bang on about body counts or fallen soldiers, the more that insurgents are only to happy to supply them with some grim and gruesome images. From the suicide bomber that blew themselves up next to a petrol tanker that was parked next to a mosque, to the recent bombing of the Palestine hotel by 3 massive truck bombs, the insurgent are very happy to provide more images of blood and guts. Don't take my word for it; two high-ranking soldiers think so too. Marine Col. John Toolan told the National Review, that propagandists throughout history often have used symbols like a relatively high, round, even number that can easily be remembered and thus accurately and frequently repeated for effect. I'll leave the last words to Marine Major Neil F. Murphy Jr., who in the same article, noted with amazement that insurgents have absolutely nothing to offer the people. They only kill and create misery, yet the media give them a platform. Bad news sells and the terrorists create plenty. Murphy added, What's worse [?] Groups that promote death number-milestones as a means of discrediting America's involvement in Iraq only incite the insurgents to do more of the same'. (7) Read on: (1) Protesters mark 2.000th US fatality in Iraq. By Alan Elsner. Reuters. Oct 2005 (2) Halabja. By the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP). (3) [url=http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/] Iraq Body Count. [/url] Latest Updates. Oct 2005 (4)[url=http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FQP/is_4685_133/ai_n6152764] World view. [/url] By Michela Wrong. New Statesman. April 2004 (5) 2003: Saddam statue topples with regime. BBC News ? On This Day 9 April. (6)[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55816-2003Oct20?language=printer] Curtains ordered for media coverage of returning coffins. [/url] By Dana Milbank. Washington Post. 2003 (7) Purple-Ink & Other Under-covered Successes. By W. Thomas Smith Jr. National Review. Oct 2005



Posts: 6
Joined: 2005-08-10
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
Hi Courtney - took me a while to get through this. What do you recommend the measure of war should be?



Posts: 1
Joined: 2006-09-21
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
I think the measure of the success of the war should be whether it achieved its stated aims and on all those counts it is a complete failure: 1. WMD: None have been discovered and disarmed because there were none there in the first place. 2.Iraq is not a stable, flourishing beacon of democracy. Instead it's a hell-hole of secterian division and carnage. I agree that the debate about the numbers is crass and insensitive but I also agree that they are raised to make a significant point namely that Iraqis are not greatly benefitting from 'regime change'. When aruguments about WMD and the links to AQ faltered this was the main 'moral'justification for the war and it was the argument that at the time it was hardest for the war's opponents to counter. 3. The threat from terrorism has been greatly enhanced not reduced by the war in Iraq. This was the other main justification, that AQ had links to the Iraqi regime and as such its elimination would make the world a safer place. AQ now maintains a serious presence in Iraq, with as many as 12,000 fighters recently being claimed, and has been the main propaganda benificery of the invasion. Even if the secterian conflict in Iraq were to end tomorrow then who wouldnt like to bet that alot of AQ's new recruits would be sent to the West to launch further attacks? It has also managed to attract a wave of new recruits in the West with the head of M15 in the UK recently claiming there are as many as 30 plots for attacks being moinitored and recent press reports claiming there could be as many as 200 cells. Obviously these things are not an exact science but anybody with any sense can see that before 2003 this number would have been alot fewer... So...in short the war is a failure on all counts. Message was edited by: friskylittledonkey1



Posts: 968
Joined: 2005-11-22
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
As an Iraqi, i find the whole debate regarding the number of Iraqi deaths hugely offensive as it implies that there is an acceptable number. Alsultani, Don't take it personally; although I'm not quite sure why it has taken place, we (in the West) have definitely become a numbers society. We measure, compare, analyze, re-measure, re-compare, and re-analyze. We measure everything from the public's opinion on politics and the economy to the amount of food and drinks they consume, to the types of food and drinks they consume. We've even created a whole industry of so-called experts that spend all their time counting and analyzing numbers only to be disputed in their conclusions by other so-called experts that have also spent all their time counting and analyzing. Numbers have become such an importance in the West that each night we go home and watch the news (I only watch the highest rating news by the way) only to be told night after night that the stock exchange has passed such and such a mark when most of us have no clue what the hell it means, though it must be important. Current Western politics is also fueled by numbers, substance no longer matters it's all about popularity now, we like our politicians (like our Hollywood actors) to have charisma and charm rather than outdated and boring intelligence and conviction. We pick the movies we watch based on which ones accumulated the most dollars over the weekend, we select our consumer products based on what is currently popular, and thus cool (the ipod is very hot right now BTW), but just don't get me started on our truly insane compulsion with gasoline prices, though if you change your fuel filter regularly you can save up to two percent on your gasoline bill. Anyway, if we argue about the number of Iraqi's dead it is because we don't know of any other way to understand what's going on over there. Besides, without numbers we might have to ask other questions, uncomfortable questions, and this would only lead to increased stress levels, and everybody knows that a twenty percent increase in stress levels can increase your chances of a heart attack by seventy two percent.



Posts: 301
Joined: 2006-09-24
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
Great discussion so far. Please read my blog on oD today on the subject (http://makeashorterlink.com/?S60732A0E), and tell me what you think. [Edited by: oD Forum Moderator. shorter link created.]



Posts: 3
Joined: 2006-07-19
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
The various numbers that have been put forward with the intention of placing a quantifiable depth to the tragic losses in Iraq, I agree, have failed to establish anything other than political ammunition which has been and will continue to be harnessed by a plethora of interested parties. I also agree that numbers are a medium which can be best understood by someone watching news feeds or reading a journal when trying to generate an image of the costs of war, and who are otherwise detached in other respects from whats occurring on the ground. I think that the numbers issue has also been a diversion (not specifically intentional) that has removed the human face from the losses to Iraqi lives, as indeed people tend to analyse rather than translate figures into something less empirical and more personalised. At the very least, people are talking and the fact that numbers have been produced, reflected upon and contested demonstrates that the international community is paying attention and is deeply concerned. The next step, I would hope, should be to at least utilise figures and their analysis to produce solutions that can work on the ground to establish an end to the violence in Iraq. Wishful thinking perhaps but it is possible. Although it is a few days late, Eid Mubarak to you all.



Posts: 522
Joined: 2005-02-27
Re: Stop arguing about numbers
There was a very good program on UK television a few days ago that followed, for a few days, the world of a doctor inside a hospital in Iraq. The advertising for the program (ch 4 - dispatches) was about where has all the millions of dollars gone, targetted at medical aid, when the hospital was woefully ill-equipped; but the program was more about the human suffering and despair by ordinary Iraqis trying to do the best they can. Many of the staff were unwilling to be filmed as they would become a target for some armed group and eventually the filming was banned. The filming was done and narrated by an Iraqi doctor who was, sadly but understandably, going to give up and leave Iraq. There were many harrowing scenes, incuding a seven year old boy having to be fitted with chest drains as first aid to keep him alive, but without the benefit of anaesthetic! One was after a mortar or bomb attack in a market place when the camera was in the ambulance with people injured, upset, worried for loved ones, and angry about what had happened. They could not understand how Iraqis could do this to other Iraqis. They were near despair also and some said they would leave Iraq if they could. Local militia, from one of several groups, would not allow filming outside the ambulance. The hospital doctor who was happy to be filmed had a fatalistic view and had only escaped death by chance a few days earlier. It was his day off and so missed a fake road block on his way to work where people of the wrong religious group were summarily shot. He was a brave and admirable man. The doctor narrating the film said that he had had two relatives and seventeen aquaintances killed and had had enough. Interestingly he said that as far as he, and others he knew, were concerned that the American/British forces should stay. They may not be liked but their strength was respected and he felt that it would be worse if they left.


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