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The Arab European League are Fascists


Posts: 9
Joined: 2007-06-07
Fabulous. A "debate" between the gradualist, well presented pro-Muslim Brotherhood approach of Tariq Ramadan versus the open fascism of Abou Jahjah's AEL. The AEL is a group which responded to the publication of the MoToons by... publishing a series of cartoons in which Jewish directors spread the myth of the Holocaust, Hitler fucks Anne Frank, and so on. Of course! Why not? When newspapers in Denmark, Germany, France, Jordan, etc. publish cartoons, what could be more natural than to respond by hitting back at the international conspiracy of Jews who, of course, were really behind their publication. The Jews are to blame for everything, dontcha know. As for Ramadan: he is well to the right of OpenDemocracy's own Roger Scruton. This is the fellow, remember, whose most progressive contribution - apart from quoting a bit of Sartre and Voltaire - is to call for a 'moratorium' on the death penalty for adultery. And they call Scruton a right winger! What about a debate between the Vlaams Blok and the Vlams Belang about "Flemishness and democracy"? Or a debate between Kahane Chai and Shas on "Israeli Democracy"? No, you wouldn't run a soft-soaping report on that sort of event. You'd ask - "where are the Belgian or Israeli liberals and progressives"? You'd think that a debate of that sort was a kind of internal monologue between those who we rightly regard as occupying the political fringes. Don't Muslim secularists and true democrats get a look in in this debate any more? What is it with the European left? We quite properly organise to defeat white fascists, but when it comes to the likes of Abou Jahjah, suddenly he's the Arab Malcolm X, and a man to be listened to and applauded. Back in the 1970s, there used to be an advert on British TV for Fry's Turkish Delight, in which a stereotyped 'Arab sheikh' galoped away with his lovely lady to his tent in the desert. A more racist depiction of Arabs and Muslims it would be hard to imagine. But yet, we're right back there politically. Muslims are now seen as something exotic, oriental, semi-barbaric - but oooh, so glamourous. And so, naturally, when the Left looks for Muslim leaders, it always seems to pick the ones which best fit their stereotype.


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Posts: 42
Joined: 2007-06-07
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
I apologise for not giving you a reply until now, but I have not had as much time to ‘revel’ in the encounter between these two (certainly attractive) men of ideas as I might have wished. Let me offer you one or two thoughts now. The AEL you describe as ‘openly fascist’. Very alarming – but what on earth does it mean? It is of course a complex term – fascism – easiest to identify in relation to states, but at any rate involving a form of authoritarianism leading to violence. It is exactly this kind of formation that the AEL fights against and criticises. Presumably you think that they don’t mean it. But if this is the case, there is nothing obvious about their stance. And yet, you also talk about ‘the likes of Abou Jahjah’ - a phrase only implying something quite obviously unacceptable (and therefore without the need for any further clarification) - without stating what that is. I myself described the ‘return series of cartoons’ as ‘dead-end provocation’. That seems to me far more exact. I haven’t heard from you why you don’t accept the AEL’s own description of themselves as ‘left-wing’. This should suit you fine, since it seems that ‘European left’ is a perjorative term – again an unexplained no-go area. (NB I am not at all sure such a thing exists in fact: the left in most European countries as elsewhere has always been hopelessly preoccupied with state power and quite unable on the whole to raise their sights to Europe). Let us move on to Ramadan, who it seems you can easily place ‘far to the right of Roger Scruton’. Admittedly, this is an amazingly hyperbolical thought, but again, it tells me far less than it seemed to me that Ramadan himself did in the course of the meeting and the subsequent interview. On what basis are you able to locate him as ‘far to the right’? As far as I can see, he has many preoccupations in common with Dyab Abou Jahjah, who I take to be leftwing. Do you think trying to combat extremism and violence is the same thing as being extremist and violent? I don’t. So presumably, again, you have to disbelieve most of what Ramadan consistently says and does on many issues to characterise him as you very pithily do. Of course, you are not alone in disbelieving Tariq Ramadan, but you give even fewer reasons for this than others do. I think we need to get beyond the point where simply mentioning the Muslim Brotherhood – another complicated history of influences - is meant to settle the issue. Here of course, I must admit to having my own prejudices against the right wing. I find they always try and argue about things by ruling issues and possibilities out of court, rather than addressing them. I have to try and stop myself suspecting you might be one of them in this regard. For example, I am quite ‘openly’ interested in what these two people have to say about poverty, inequality, tyranny and war-mongering. I don’t think you dispose of these concerns by labelling them ‘European left’ in a ‘say no more about that’ tone of voice. There is lot of finger-wagging and - well heat, but not much light here. I have another point I would like to raise with you – it is why I think you’re being evasive. But perhaps I’ll wait and see whether you would like to cross swords...



Posts: 3
Joined: 2004-05-22
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
I was astonished to read that Ms Bechler accepts, at face value, any disingenuous claims advanced by either Abou Jahjah’, or, the AEL, that they stand on the Left of European Politics. If they are, in fact, bona fide representatives of what has become of the radical Left; then it is a sad day for all us Progressives. How many more atrocities have to be committed by militant Islamists and condoned, tacitly or otherwise, by their apologists such as the AEL and Hizb ut-Tahrir : before Ms Bechler “wakes up and smells the coffee?” All forms of political Islamism, ultimately leave no room in any society for non-Muslims to fully participate, on an equal footing, with Muslims. For Ms Bechler to so casually indulge the likes of the AEL, is both philosophically inconsistent- for anyone who subscribes to the values of the European Enlightenment- and patronising to Muslims. Any true liberal, or socialist, simply cannot have any truck with them if they wish to remain credible and true to their own belief systems. Why one earth should any of us hold Muslims to lesser ethical standards than we would demand of non-Muslims? Yet, it appears clear to me, that opportunist politicians such as Ken Livingstone and George Galloway, have markedly exhibited this tendency when lauding the likes of Qaradawi and Saddam Hussein. Men hailing from vastly differing schools of thought but who share two traits calculated to make some on the Left go weak at the knees: they are brown and Muslim. Cue for lashings of post-colonial guilt and moral relativism to spew forth and cloud their better judgement. I’d like to point out that I consider myself both a liberal and, a rationalist, and am not an uncritical supporter of Israeli government policy. That said, even I can see the existential threat groups such as Hamas pose to that country. No amount of mealy-mouthed appeasing can ever excuse the atrocities committed by suicide bombers operating under their auspices. Yet, I not that Abou Jahjah is a trenchant supporter of Hamas and any other group that opposes, what he has dubbed, the “Zionist colonial, racist, apartheid entity”. For some reason, the word “Israel” seems to stick in his craw and is unutterable. Ms Bechler should ask herself why this is? I posit, that it might prove a clue as to the real motivations behind Mr Jahjah and the AEL. As for Mr Scruton, I couldn’t give a “monkey’s toss.” After all, it’s not Mr Scruton who jumps through rings to explain away the worst excesses of barbarism misguidedly committed under the banner of Islam. I refer you here to the Human Rights record of the governments of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the former Taleban regime in Afghanistan etc. Or don’t women, homosexuals, atheists, and freethinkers (et.al) have rights? Why don’t the various groupings that constitute the Left in Europe campaign more on these issues? No wonder that secularists and modernizers in the Islamic world often feel abandoned.



Posts: 42
Joined: 2007-06-07
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
Again, I can't help but notice the careless use of the expression, ‘the likes of’. I am not at all sure who could be described as ‘the likes of Saddam Hussein.’ When I was trying with others to defend human rights in Iraq and expose his record at the time of the Halabja atrocity back in the 1980’s, it was impossible to interest British politicians, because - dictator as he might have been - at that point he was regarded as ‘one of ours’. This is an example of people ignoring evidence. (I suppose they might argue that ‘the likes of the earlier Saddam Hussein’ were not the same as ‘the likes of the later Saddam Hussein’ !...) The point is we would have to look at the evidence available to us, cling to what we do know and look for inconsistencies. That is what I try and do. One of the main questions raised by the discussion between Ramadan and Abou Jahjah is whether the major issues they discuss and their approaches to them are very different from similar debates that occur and have occurred for some time in the non-Muslim left. I think it is not me that is treating these people any differently ... And certainly not in terms of lesser ethical standards.



Posts: 3
Joined: 2004-05-22
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
You seem to have purposefully misconstrued what I said about Qaradawi and Saddem Hussein! Please re-read the sentence that followed on from the one that you have commented on, in which I drew a clear distinction between the two men. It read: "Men hailing from vastly differing schools of thought but who share two traits calculated to make some on the Left go weak at the knees: they are brown and Muslim." For my part, I deliberately chose to use the expression "the likes of", as it's obviously something of a bugbear of yours. And yes: I was being provocative. On the other hand, what really annoyed me about your earlier posting, was your uncritical acceptance of any claim made by Abou Jahjah, that he, or the AEL, stands on the Left. How absurd! If Nick Griffin was to assert that he and the BNP are, in actual fact, fellow travellers on the European Left and are simply misunderstood; would you be so ready to accept his statement at face value? I think both you and I know the answer to that one. Please don’t make the mistake of assuming that I disagree with all of the points you have raised. Yet we are, where we are and, it is incumbent on us all to better understand the real nature of militant Islamism and the threat it poses, in most of its guises, to those of us who chose to exercise our right to disagree. Or, are you unfamiliar with the role mapped out for both the “al-kafirun” and “al-mushrikun” in an Islamist earthly paradise? At the extent of appearing patronising, I suggest you dig a little deeper into the AEL and what it really stands for. Don’t allow yourself to be fobbed off so easily.



Posts: 42
Joined: 2007-06-07
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
OK, so we can agree that the question here is the relationship between any of these movements – let us take the AEL – and ‘militant’ or ‘political Islamism’. You urge me to dig deeper. Actually, I think an important line to be drawn carefully today is down the middle of Islamism. There are strands that are not militant. But let’s stick with the AEL, where this question does not arise. I can provide you with more of Dyab Abou Jahjah’s extensive refutations of that form of extremism in word and deed – a look at the history of the AEL shows it moving towards consistency on these issues, a view at least circumstantially supported, I would have thought, by its Islamist wing walking out of the organisation. You have ignored much of this evidence from my account already, so this may be a rather futile exercise. Still here goes: • Two years ago, the AEL resisted the move by their Islamist wing arguing for ‘a supervisory body above the level of sovereignty of the people in any Islamically-responsible state’. Its democratic wing declared, not for the first time, that, ‘democracy is our bottom line.’ The Islamists – they say – walked out. (Perhaps they didn’t, but from what I can see of the subsequent sharpening of AEL policy – they did.) * What do they say they mean by democracy? ‘Identity is an ethno-cultural reality. It is who you are. Democracy is how you want to live, a basic principle of how to organise a collectivity of the people’ is Abou Jahjah’s current formulation. It is the right of everybody to define their identity and their framework as they want to. But he argues that if you look to Islam as a framework in which all solutions can be found, you will not be able to find what you are looking for. * Nevertheless, the AEL spends much time countering Islamophobia on a series of pragmatic political grounds that make a lot of sense to me, for example, in the context of Antwerp: ‘ We do that first of all to defend a principle, freedom of religious belief and its expression. Secondly, because the majority of our Arab community is Muslim, so we have more affinity with the issues of course. And third, because of the situation, because Islam is more criminalised than any other religion right now.’ (A similar pragmatism guides Abou Jahjah’s support for Islamic schools in certain circumstances: ‘Faced with entrenched discrimination, an education system that consistently fails you either for reasons of religion, ethno-culture or class-related issues – you cannot wait for the entire structure to be overhauled before you give people an education…’ The same is true of affirmative action and Islamic political parties, ‘The form of political participation is not important: a Muslim-democratic party is one option; another is that Muslims support any party if they agree with its programme.’ * But alongside tactical calculations, there is a developing theory of democracy in the AEL’s new 20-point vision statement, within a broader discourse that Abou Jahjah refers to as ‘human dialectics’. This ‘radical, leftwing’ approach requires democracy to be redefined ‘to ensure the prevention of any and every concentration of power in society’. As such, it criticises the conventional nostrums of the liberal democracy ‘you will meet in the West nowadays’, aligning itself with the Marxist critique of the concentration of capital, but extending this analysis of oppression. This situates the theory in an interesting position to examine both Western democracies and Islamic states critically – which Abou Jahjah has always done. For example, the AEL argues, against Marxism, that ‘ideological oppression can be as oppressive as material oppression.” He writes, ‘Look at religion, where theocratic authority, for example in Islam, takes to itself the power to issue fatwas over and above society. This concentration of ‘knowledge’ in an exclusive group is as antipathetic to a healthy democracy as a concentration of capital.’ * In the paper that Dyab Abou Jahjah prepared for his meeting with Tariq Ramadan, which can also be found in full on the AEL website, he spells out what the ‘rule of the people’ means to him, and criticises the European system as ‘a pseudo-democracy’: ‘Europe often has the form of democracy but the content of oppression, the smell of justice but the taste of exclusion.’ * Then he looks at Islamic thought and identifies what he sees as a key development in mainstream Islamic thinking in both its Sunni and Shia versions: a move from, ‘what I consider Islamism, or Muslim fundamentalism – imposing eternal laws that are not to be implemented by the choice of the people, or limiting the choice of legislation in certain matters to a select group of clerics..’ to ‘what I consider Muslim-democratic thinking – trying to implement the values of Islam through democratic means, but accepting the outcome of elections now and in the future. Muslim democrats can be inspired by Islam to oppose a certain law : that is not anti-democratic, but the very essence of democracy’. * In the same paper, he calls for a clear endorsement from Islamic scholars of the International Declaration of Human Rights and argues that Muslim thinking, ‘takes a more traditional and puritanical guise in urban Europe, than in urban Arab or Turkish Islam, due to the rural origins of the immigrant communities that form the majority of Muslims in Europe, and the defensive identity mechanisms they have evolved in the face of pressure to assimilate.’ * Lastly, when he challenged Ramadan’s thesis of a European-Muslim-led renewal it was in the name, not of militant Islamism or political Islamism, but a much more direct form of anti-authoritarian citizenship and warning against cultural assimilation of every kind, ‘Let them give as many interpretations of the texts as they want; let them play God’s deputy on earth, but our participation should not be related to what they say, it should be founded on who we are: citizens. The biggest problem facing the political participation of Muslims in Europe and elsewhere is clerical control. We need an anti-clerical struggle to liberate Islam from its many false prophets and bring it back to the people: a religion that has no churches, has no hierarchy and is aimed at liberating the individual and his community, like it was meant to be.’ As for Europe, ‘Being in Europe shouldn’t reduce us to a combination of Europe and a religion, no matter what religion. Assimilation is asking us to do exactly that: be European Muslims. But I want my children to know their history and live in a peaceful world which will only be achieved by taking sides with the oppressed in order to secure social justice.’ In conclusion, ‘Identity is very complex, and it is this very complexity that has a tempering and humanising effect on it, and makes us recognise our similarities and common ground as human beings. The more you try to reduce identity, the more mechanical, undynamic and inhumane it becomes, losing touch with reality.’ Some time ago you will no doubt have been asking yourself if not others – is there no end to Ms.Bechler’s willingness to listen to what these people say they think? But everything I have observed in the history of the emergence of the AEL from its leftwing trade union roots, into identity politics is consistent with the tenor of these arguments. My point is this. I do believe that if Dyab Abou Jahjah had his evil, democratic way with European society, ‘the working class’ or ‘the oppressed’, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, could quite possibly, as long as this was achieved non-violently, be better off. I think he is after a pluralist and participatory democracy which could well be an improvement for them and possibly a few others as well. For me, that is a leftwing outcome. Now I am not saying that those are the only people in the world that we should be concerned with. But I find the AEL consistent in its leftwing credentials. If Nick Griffin and the BNP had their evil way, I am quite sure that the ‘working class’ or ‘the oppressed’, Muslim and non-Muslim, would not be better off. I think they would be lethally divided and that this could only serve very right wing interests. The battle between these two positions is already well under way. And in that battle, we all have to dig as deep as we can to avoid being caught up in some very unproductive enemy images. Hizb ut-Tahrir is a completely different kettle of fish from the AEL in history and intent, and a very good example of the need for deep-digging – so important now since there is talk of outlawing them and our freedoms and equalities are directly at stake in these decisions. openDemocracy has published useful articles in this regard. One thing we agree on is the need to dig deeper. But essentially you are saying to me that all the evidence I have come across and could come across of this ilk on AEL is simply false. So I need to know from you – how do you get at the truth? What is better about your method. How are you so sure that you are right?



Posts: 3
Joined: 2004-05-22
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
Dear Ms Bechler, Where do I start? Well, before I respond to some of your points, I’d like to know if you either endorse, or sympathise, with the following statement recently penned by Mr Dyab Abou Jahjah pertaining to the recent destruction of the Imam Ali shrine in Samara: “Breaking down the Iraqi resistance is to be achieved through unleashing a total civil war between Sunni and Shi’a Arabs in Iraq. That will lead to Kurdish control of the state under the support of the US and its allies and on top of them the Zionist colonial, racist, apartheid entity. An Iraqi civil war will lead also to paralyzing the weapons of the resistance through turning them inwards against their own people. The criminals who have blown up the Imam Al Hadi dome in Samara, one of the holiest shrines of Shi’a Muslims, are very aware of this goal and are serving directly the interest of the occupation forces". Now, there are conspiracy theories and there is downright mischief making. Which of these do you think Dyab Abou Jahjah is indulging in? To my mind, it seems to be indicative of a certain mindset, prevalent in many Islamist quarters, that attributes all things negative to either the United States or the Israeli government. There is an almost total refusal to countenance the possibility that, any Muslim, however deranged, might commit acts in the active service of a sinister agenda. In short, it’s the fault of the infidel, all of the time. Cod's wallop. I do not know whether you personally adhere to the tenets of any of the “madhhabs” of Sunni Islam, and do not care, but why are you so willing to suspend your critical judgement when appraising the AEL? I’ve read all of your points but am still left with the feeling that you’ve allowed yourself to be taken in. Yet, unlike me, I think you would agree that many an Islamist, would be much exercised by identifying the religious faith of any non-Muslim who dared proffer an argument that ran contrary to his/her Weltanschauung. As a rule, it’s a Jewish origin that is sought out and, if found, scurrilously used to smear and discredit their opponent. Neither do I care much for your distinction between kalashnikov totting militant Islamists, and their more cuddly fellow travellers in sharp suits. Call me an old-fashioned secularist- and trenchant supporter of the French principle of “laïcité” and the “l’état laïc”- but as soon as any political wannabe founds a movement informed by religious values, that person immediately alienates any potential supporter who does not ascribe to that faith. It is for this reason, that I have no truck with such mainstream political parties such as the CDU in Germany. What kind of message does the retention of the word Christian in their title sends out to: atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc? I would even go so far as to posit, that the party’s insistence on retaining its explicitly “Christian” credentials: have cost it the votes of many voters of Turkish origin. So please excuse me if I have a long, deep, belly laugh at your assertion that, if Abou Jahjah had his way: “‘the working class’ or ‘the oppressed’, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, could quite possibly, as long as this was achieved non-violently, be better off.” If you actually believe this and are not simply being obtuse, then I’m afraid you’ve got it worse than even I had earlier thought! Why do you consistently fail to address my query as to the role marked out for “al- kafirun” and “al-mushrikun” in any state presided over by an Islamist administration, however mild? Now, there’s a title for a future article for you:”The Infidel: His Fate in the Caliphate reborn.” Or, could it be, that you would be happy with the “People of the Book” (Jews and Christians) becoming reduced to “dhimma” status and being compelled to pay the “jizya/cizye” poll tax to guarantee the freedom to practice their faith? Where would that leave Hindus and Sikhs in UK, or Vietnamese Buddhists in France? Not to mention, the overwhelming majority of north-western Europeans who are not “God botherers” of any description? I think we all know the position taken by Islamists on atheism. And herein lies the rub. How on earth can anyone so apparently familiar with Marxist dialectics, as you must surely be, wish to be associated with Abou Jahjah or political Islamism? Need I remind you of Marx’s take on religion? Words fail me… Please excuse me a trite comparison but, over the course of the last five years, I’ve belatedly come to understand how many a British communist must have felt in the late 1930’s when Hitler and Stalin signed the Molotov Pact. The continued appeasement of various Islamist apostles by those who see themselves as hailing from the Left can only be a sign of decadency. I have a great deal of respect for the time and trouble that you have taken to look into contemporary Islamist politicking and those themes that directly impinge on Muslims living in Europe. I’d also like to take the opportunity to point out that my words do not apply to Tariq Ramadan. I only wish that more people had taken the trouble to read the works of his grandfather Hasan al-Banna and, perhaps then, so many Europeans wouldn’t be so confused by the various strands of Islamist thinking. I would, however, caution you into accepting at face value that such a phenomenon as “European Islam” actually exists. On this point, if not on much else, I would agree with the Salafists that, “Islam is Islam”. Whilst it is undoubtedly true that Islam can be practised in Europe in as many multifarious guises as anywhere else in the world, it remains, nonetheless for all that, Islam. This in itself, sits at direct variance with the Salafists, who see Islam as a monolithic entity. I suggest, that if any Muslim wants to see how Islam has actually been lived continuously for centuries in Europe, then they need look no further than to the Balkans. If there could ever be such a thing as “European” Islam, that’s where one would find it. Yet, on closer inspection, it becomes immediately clear that since the 14th century when Slavic, Albanian and Greek Christians first began converting en masse to various brands of Islamic teaching, Islam has been marked by its flexibility of approach. I also probably do not need to remind you, that many of those political thinkers who grappled with how to best salvage the Ottoman State from destruction and, along with it, the Caliphate, were “European” Muslims born in cities such as Thessaloniki, like Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Men, who would now, I’m sure, be regarded by most Islamists as apostates to Islam. Whatever their merits, the founders of the Turkish state at the end of the Great War, well appreciated the lunacy of the Islamists of their own day. You need to ask yourself the question, that if political Islamism offers its adherents and, the wider community, such a promising future, then why did Ataturk plump for secularism and the separation of mosque from state? I’d suggest that the explicitly “Islamist” policies of Sultan Abdul Hamid II, caused such havoc from 1876-1909, that to revisit them today, would be insanity. In the light of this, it is absolutely imperative, that we Europeans do not divide ourselves politically along religious and sectarian lines. Solidarity and not separatism should be our watchwords. Not faith-led apartheid.



Posts: 5
Joined: 2006-03-15
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
I am surprised you are not censored by the forum for speaking out against muslims...seems like the moderators on this forum is pro arab, pro muslim pro dictatorship and religious fanaticism which the barbaric of islam is!



Posts: 397
Joined: 2006-03-28
Re: The Arab European League are Fascists
emmanuel Ref: only a fool would defend Islam or believe in it . There is not much difference between Islam and Judaism; as a matter of fact 3/4 of Quran was copied from Taurat! Only a retarded person would believe that 3000 years ago a drunken man promised Jerusalem to the Jews! Are you a Jew living in the Promised Land? FAO the moderator, if you read the text above carefully you will see I have not used bad/offensive language! PS: This is a Jewish site; they delete Muslim posts and keep the Jewish post. Check it if you do not believe me!


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