Nothing is necessarily as you thought it was, and you should never believe what you're told until you've had a chance to study it for yourselves
Nothing is necessarily as you thought it was, and you should never believe what you're told until you've had a chance to study it for yourselves
NavigationThe World
Our writers |
![]() |
Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka Bralo)
Zrinka Bralo (see link below) argues that British people's attitudes to outsiders an evasion of truths about themselves. Some things she says our true, but elsewhere, I fear she fails to deal with the genuinely serious problems caused by recent mass immigration, and that this failure is too widespread amongst liberals like me.
http://www.opendemocracy.com/debates/article-10-96-1631.jsp
I am by nature a liberal. But, perhaps ten years ago, my attitude to immigration took a serious knock when election canvassing in an estate in northeastern London.
An elderly lady answered the door, full of anger about her immigrant neighbours. I was about to dismiss her as a racist bigot when she opened up.
"I was brought up here as a small girl," she said. "This used to be a lovely neighbourhood. But now I am surrounded by people who want nothing to do with me. I have become a foreigner in my own land."
I look around, this time trying to see with her eyes. She was right. Most of her neighbours were immigrants with a very different culture. I would like to have dismissed her, told myself she was socially isolated simply because of her racist attitudes - but I'm afraid I don't believe it.
I see myself as left-of-centre, in the sense that I believe those in politics should try to speak up for the underprivileged and powerless. What challenged me, on that dreary, depressing estate, was that the immigrants weren't the only ones who were powerless or oppressed. In relation to that lonely woman, they had the power to befriend, or ostracise her. She had almost no power at all.
I realised that I, living in a comfortable leafy suburb, didn't have to live with the consequences of the failings of our immigration policy. She did.
I think this is at the root of one of the two serious problems immigration is causing the UK today. That in some parts of the country, large communities have settled that actively resist integrating with British culture. That, in our liberal desire to be tolerant, we have made "multi-culturalism" an almost religious mantra, and have made the word "assimilation" into a political taboo. But that, because most of us live in leafy suburbs, we have shut our eyes to the consequences: of a graowing racial apartheid in many of our cities, and deep anger among those driven out by the inflow of thousands from an alien culture.
The most dramatic consequence of this problem was in the riots that preceded the last election, when Asian communities rioted in some northern English towns. In the newspaper reports that followed, we read that youths in those communities were openly trying to prevent white people from entering their communities. Since then, the BNP gained councillors in those areas, though thankfully, the mainstream parties have had some success in fighting back.
Of course, this is rare. Few communities riot, most are law abiding, and only the worst examples reach the news headlines. But what is not unusual is for immigrant communities to deliberately form their own ghettos, where anyone who doesn't know their languages will be socially isolated, and for their women folk to not even know rudimentary English.
Anyone who has done political canvassing in deprived areas with large south asian populations knows this to be true. But we avoid talking about it: we do not want to give ammunition to the British National Party. Gradually, we are realising our mistake. If we fail to tell the truth about the failings of our immigration policies, and if we condemn anyone who does as racists, then the only ones who address these issues will be the real racists.
The law of unintended consequences often applies to politics. I fear it applies to immigration politics with a vengeance. That we can be so strident in our opposition to racism, that we prevent moderates from addressing the issue honestly, and see a rise in the racist vote as a consequence.
So if there is a problem, what should be our response? Frankly, there are no easy answers. We already have serious racial partition in some of our cities. I doubt we can undo that, but we can try to limit it in future.
I think David Blunkett was right to introduce an elementary language test into the requirements for British citizenship. I think moves to limit illegal immigration are prudent. But how we prevent the creation of ghettos, I don't know.
Probably the real battle to resolve these problems lies within the immigrant population themselves.
They need people from their communities to campaign for English teaching for their women folk. If Asian mothers don't speak English, this does not just isolate those women, and prevent them from enjoying the full benefits of British life. It damages the wider community.
I even have sympathy for the recent French moves to restrict the wearing of headscarves (and scull caps and skull caps), among children at school. They, like most European countries have serious problems with ghettoisation, a failure of immigrants to integrate, and a rise in racist political parties. However, the problem with moves like this is that they are seen as imposed by the white leadership of France. What would be far better is if there were more from the immigrant communities who spoke out vigorously for more integration into their national culture.
The second serious problem is, I am afraid, militant Islam.
Many spokesmen for the Muslim community in the UK complain about Islamophobia. I wish they were right. But a phobia is an irrational fear, I am afraid that after September 11th that fear is no longer irrational.
And the source of this fear goes a lot further back. Fourteen years ago, the late Ayatollah Khomeini issued a death sentence on Salman Rushdie. In itself, that wasn't a big problem. What was shocking was the deafening silence from the leadership of the UK Muslim community when asked to condemn calls for the murder of a UK citizen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/180002.stm). Thankfully, no British citizen was killed as a result, though I recall that a Muslim in the Netherlands was killed, when he spoke out against the fatwa at the time - so maybe British Muslims have good reason to be reluctant to speak out as well.
The Rushdie case seemed to me to set a pattern. Where an outrageous crime (incitment to murder) was committed by members of the Muslim community, and the Muslim leadership, instead of condemning it, complained about Islamophobia.
After September 11th, there were condemnations, but not enough have been unqualified condemnations, and not enough Muslims have spoken out unequivalently against the heretical minority who voice support of Al-Qaeda.
Islam is not the only religion that has suffered from evil heretical sects, who have blackened the name of their parent religion. For example, Apartheid had its roots in Christianity. However, apartheid was almost universally condemned by church leaders across the globe.
What is depressing about the Rushdie affair, and the Al-Qaeda issue, is that moderate Muslims seem to be intimidated into half-condemnations, or, even worse, silence. And if this evil is to be defeated, the front line soldiers will be Muslims, fighting against the barbarians for the future of their own religion.
But there are signs of hope.
More recently, I have heard more Muslims speak out against violent Islamic fundamentalists. Not enough, but if this is the start of a trend, there is hope. Because if the immigrant communities are willing to fight for British principles of democracy and the rule of law, then the fear of their neighbours will subside, and racists like the BNP will lose their electoral support.
Submitted on Thu, 2003-12-18 17:23
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Could someone please give me some information? I was under the impression that in a few years Muslims will outnumber the English in London. Is this incorrect? Can anyone tell me where I can find the stats regarding this issue? Thank you.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
"I was under the impression that in a few years Muslims will outnumber the English in London."
Your question makes no sense because the things you want to compare are not comparable.
'Islam' is a religion, 'English' is a claimed ethnics identity. Or are you talking about ethnicity? 'British' is the official designation for citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norhtern Ireland, and is also an 'ethnic identifier' for census purposes - this is the sense it is used in the figures that follow.
Do you mean 'Muslims' compared to 'Christians' in London? Look in the census - www.nationalstatistics.gov.uk
Some figures:
Population of London 7172091
Religion
'Christian' 4176175 (58.23%)
'Muslim' 607083 (8.47%)
Ethnicity
'White' 5103203 (71.15%)
Religion and Ethnicity
Of Christians, 3394567 were 'white' (47.33% of total population or 79.83% of Christians) and of these 2174189 were 'British' (30.31% total, 52.06% of Christians).
Of Muslims, 116292 were 'white' (1.62% of total population or 19.16% of Muslims) and of these, 32888 'British' (0.46% total or 5.42% of Muslims).
And this doesn't go further - there are many different ethnic groups and many other religions...
So both Christians and Muslims can be British (or not) depending on what they claim or depending on their official citizenship. There are white British Muslims, and non-white, non-British Christians and countless other variations. Most of these people will be British citizens, and of course most of them will be 'Londoners'!
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
One thing which I feel the british people are afraid of is having to think about there attitude to immigration.Many see things in black and white (not in the term of race) either good or bad.So they look at the lack of integration or willingness to iintegrate as a bad thing without questioning if their civil structures in any way prevent immigrants or communities of other ethnic origin from integrating as fully as british people might wish.In other word they expect people to act and think like the british would as soon as they reach this country.As if the border is not just a geographic but also a mental thing.
On the other hand immigrants are uncoscious of how their actions might be percieved.There has to be a recognition tht if you come to another country, whilst you may retain the traditions and cultures of your previous country, if those traditions cut against the law and or general moral standards (a rather undefinable concept I know)of the host country then the law and standards of the host country take precedence.
To persist in the idea that your own culture,traditions etc can exist in defiance of the law is actually stating that your culture is superior to that of the host country and is racist in itself.
As a benefits worker I come across many cases where I just have to hold my head in my hands and wonder why I bother to stand up for a serious attitude to be taken towards immigration when so many asylum seekers(sadly a disproportionate number of claimants) are flouting the system which initially aims to support them.Worse still is when the offence is brought to light and the excuses are so pitifully insincere.Sometimes immigrants can be their own worst enemy.
A reply to GeorgeK
Some things in life, like being liberal, are a matter of choice and conviction. There are many other things I did not choose. Some events that inevitably shaped my life, like war and exile were not something I would choose for myself or anyone else. But I do choose to learn form these experiences, considering them to be a test for my beliefs and choices.
I choose to try to be liberal. And it is tough to have ones liberalism tested, as GeorgeK has experienced while canvassing in a gloomy north eastern London estate. During the war in Bosnia, I had my cosmopolitan values tested in the hardest possible way. People who I went to school with, that I grew up with, made love to, people who were my neighbours, who celebrated and grieved with me, spoke the same language and looked like me, one day decided to snipe at me, fire all sorts of heavy artillery at me, rape, burn, kill and destroy. It would be easy for me to blame Serbs, or Croats or Muslims. But what should I do with my friends who are Serbs, Croats and Muslims who are liberals and who were, like me, silenced by the guns? Who is the exception to this rule?
My choice is not to respond to prejudice with more prejudice. I choose instead to subscribe to a liberal set of values to deal with the perceived or real treat of otherness. I re-examine on a daily basis what it was that led my country to the point beyond repair, and what was my responsibility for what happened? How come I did not see it coming? Was it my elitist intellectual arrogance, my naïve beliefs in a democratic world order, my consumerism, feminism, apathy? Or was it perhaps something to do with the power struggle, economy, outside influences, globalisation, EU, history? There isnt time to deconstruct it here and now, and I am not sure that there is one answer.
Equally, what I do know is that people are not racist or nationalistic by nature; and I want to find out what is it that made me liberal and what makes some people racist or xenophobic. How do people grow up, often with a superb education, but failing to be enlightened? What is it that makes people feel so small and insecure in their culture or religion, that they lash out and hate to the point where they are prepared to kill. It would be easy to dismiss the bloody end of Yugoslavia as nationalistic madness and ancient ethnic hatred. But if that was the case how did we manage not to hate and kill each other for so many years before? If indeed people of different cultures and heritage cannot live together, how come Switzerland is not up in arms?
Lets go back to Britain and immigration. Again, what I am trying to understand here is how even self-proclaimed left liberals feel that immigration is mass immigration (read dangerous immigration). What is mass immigration? What are the limits to immigration and who sets them and why? How does this connect to the essence of being British? If size matters, should the 96% of the British be afraid of 4% of immigrants?
What I obviously failed to communicate first time around, so Ill have to repeat it, is that
a) the size of immigration, economic and forced is negligible in terms of population, cost and economy; it is the perception of it, which has nothing to do with reality, that causes the concern;
b) this perception is generated and perpetuated by tabloids and politicians with no courage or vision;
c) immigrants (and specific faith groups) are not one organic social group. There is no evil conspiracy of body snatchers. No threat to overtake the host culture.
d) the immigration debate is heavily coded in terms of race and identity and it is about time to have an honest and reasonable debate about these issues without the smokescreen of immigration or asylum.
It would be helpful to have separate debates about economic immigration, political asylum and the integration of ethnic minorities. I will repeat it again: 4% of the population in the UK are immigrants and the majority of them are white (read from the developed world); 7% of the population in the UK are black and minority ethnic, and the majority of them were born in the UK (read British). The last census shows that there is no dramatic change in these figures.
I do not think that all people who question immigration, integration, and multiculturalism are racist xenophobes. I do it all the time. It is how you do it and why that makes a difference. I agree that immigration should be taken seriously. I want to see traffickers jailed and criminals brought to justice. Being an immigrant does not make me accessory to it or protect me from it. I want to be able to raise my family in a tolerant, progressive, and stable society, with access to health care, education, respect for freedoms and human rights. And I am prepared to work for it, campaign for it and pay for it.
But it is not easy to integrate when people around you deny you the humanity they claim for themselves, just because you were born somewhere else. And it is even worse when they object to you because you are from a specific country (read culture). I am upset by riots in Oldham, by the suffering of young Asian women coerced into arranged marriages, I am also upset that asylum seekers are attacked on the streets and their houses firebombed. I want to understand how and why these things happen. How come some communities are isolated to the extent that they are more conservative in their diasporas than in their countries of origin? It can work both ways. Isolation and integration are two way processes.
It is interesting how left liberals find it difficult to call a spade a spade, all these problems are to do with poverty and deprivation, but it seems that even some lefties no longer want to be tarnished with a class analysis: so, what is the alternative of course lets blame immigration.
On the 14th December, the Home Secretary wrote in the Observer:
Last week a report showed that the proportion of people who regard themselves as racists has risen for the first time in nearly 20 years, to 31 per cent. The BNP rarely campaign these days on overt racism; instead they focus on a sense of injustice borne out of poverty and insecurity; a sense that asylum seekers, immigrants, everyone who looks different, is getting an easier time of it than hard working, white families.
That, in a nutshell, is why we must have the political courage to press ahead with the further reform of asylum and immigration
Courageous indeed: Do not vote for BNP, look we will lock up asylum seekers, well take away everything from them including their children. We are not going to make your life better, but well just make their life worse, so you can feel better and vote for us.
I find myself forming unlikely alliances across the political spectrum lately, when it was left to Michael Howard to speak some sense in the Commons as he did on 28th November:
I referred to proposals, reported earlier this week, that children of asylum seekers would be taken into care to force their parents to leave the country, as "despicable". I said this was using the children of asylum seekers as pawns to cover up the government's failure to get a grip on its asylum chaos. In fact, Tony Blair and David Blunkett have gone further than any civilised government should go. These are strong words. They may take some by surprise. But they reflect the strength of my feelings
.
It is one thing to clamp down on the misuse of benefits by those trying to claim asylum on false pretences - an approach we took in government and which the present government also adopted, however belatedly. But it is quite another threatening the break-up of families as an incentive for people to leave "voluntarily". And to spin such suggestions in order to look tough on asylum is simply unacceptable
.
Now, instead of this debate, wouldnt it be more productive to talk about why there is a rundown council estate in the northeast London, or anywhere else in Britain, not only for the sake of one elderly lady who feels isolated and threatened, but for the sake of all its residents, immigrants or not. Could it be that this poverty and misery has something to do with other social processes rather than immigration? How come immigration is not destroying leafy suburbs but selectively only attacks council estates? What about run down council estates with no immigrants?
What I am begging for is a reasonable and fair debate without blame, and political scoring. Immigration has nothing to do with political asylum and neither of them have anything to do with the failure to integrate some sections of some ethnic minorities. There is nothing wrong in talking sensibly about this in a search for positive and humane solutions. But it is wrong to scapegoat all three tiny categories of population all the time.
Zrinka Bralo
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Zrinka,
I was delighted to read your reply, but a little puzzled by one of your comments:
Zrinka Bralo said: "What I am begging for is a reasonable and fair debate without blame, and political scoring."
From the context, you seemed to be directing that at me. Did you think I was engaging in political point scoring, or unreasonable, unfair debate?
I assure you, I intended my piece to be straightforward, and written with goodwill towards yourself, and other contributors. If some of my points are mistaken, I would be happy to discuss them, and if I am wrong, withdraw them.
Otherwise, I don't have time to respond it detail, and will reply in more length later.
Best Regards
George
Re: A reply to GeorgeK
Per Zrinka Bralo:
It would be helpful to have separate debates about economic immigration, political asylum and the integration of ethnic minorities. I will repeat it again: 4% of the population in the UK are immigrants and the majority of them are white (read from the developed world); 7% of the population in the UK are black and minority ethnic, and the majority of them were born in the UK (read British). The last census shows that there is no dramatic change in these figures.
Since the census figures are important enough for Ms. Bralo to consider repeating. let's look at what the real numbers are, since statistics do not appear to be her strong suit.
UK population per 2001 census: 58,798,194
Non-white population: 4,644,296 (7.9%)
Born outside EU: 3,598.477 (6.1%)
The census does not provide a figure for the percentage of BME born in the UK, but it appears unlikely to be 'most' as asserted by Ms. Bralo, based on the above figures. Likewise, there is no figure in the census for 'immigrants', nor is the term used in the census reports as a classification, so the provenance of the 4% figure is unclear.
Now to the proposed 'debate' itself, that Ms. Bralo appears to be so keen on, viz:
What I am begging for is a reasonable and fair debate without blame, and political scoring.
How about this for a starter:
1. The BME population of the UK has grown from effectively zero in 1951 to 4.6 million in 2001, while the white population has remained static.
2. Third-world immigration is continuing at the rate of 200,000 plus per year. New Labour's "managed" migration policies will guarantee this figure continues to trend upwards.
3. This demographic transformation is unparalleled in our history, and has never been put to the electorate as a public policy.
4. There is no credible evidence that third-world immigration on this scale provides any economic benefit whatsoever to Britain.
5. The need to accommodate myriad multiple cultures with 'sensitivity' has resulted in publically-funded Orwellian monsters such as the Commission for Racial Equality.
6. Britain is the 7th most densely populated country on Earth; we are full up.
I say yes, let's take immigration seriously. Let's have a debate, but let's base it on verifiable facts rather than left-liberal cant and dogma. Fire away.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Thanks George,
I am sorry if you felt accused or attacked by my reply. I assure you that I understood your comments as well meaning, genuine and reasonable.
My plea for reason in this debate was more general and I am sorry if you felt it was criticism directed at you personally.
I was referring to an ongoing exchange between the Government and the Opposition as illustrated by the quotes from the Home Secretary and Michael Howard.
Regards,
Zrinka
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
I wanted to ask what readers feel about the intergration of ex-patriots in Saudi compounds and ex-patriots settled in France who attend international school?
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
To all those who ask why don't moderate Muslims condemn Al-Qaida , 9/11 and so on.......
The Muslim population in Britain does not have an established leadership in the same way as the Church of England does. Unless an Islamic leader derives leadership from their role vested in civic political structures, no such leadership role is practiced in Islam. This situation has only arisen in countries where the state religion is also predominantly Islam. This, for obvious reasons, is unlikely to happen in Britain.
Instead various spokespersons have sprung up and condemned the attacks on 9/11 without fail. Trouble is , we don't live in an open democracy , so for every 100,000 moderates who will speak up and condemn terrorism, the voice of the 10 Muslim extremists will be broadcast and invited onto to national platforms. I can't help suspecting that the only freak individuals are given a platform as this makes good television.
Also, the countries that were at the fore-front of the US's call to offer support on the 'war on terror' were so-called moderate Turkey, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia ( the latter two, not so moderate). In doing so these three countries have opened their territory up to the threat of terrorist acts indefinitely. Pakistan, took the greatest risk by allying with the US and the repercussions will continue. Does this count as vocal opposition?
Finally, on a more personal note, I cannot condemn terrorism any more than my non-Muslim friends have, as I do not feel responsible for the actions of individuals who also happen to be Muslims. Are you seriously suggesting my voice ought to be louder because I am also Muslim? I am as open minded as the next person but I can't help feeling uncomfortable at this argument. Perhaps because I am always speaking out - not just against terrorism but all the isms under the sun, and often in cross cultural and mono-cultural circles. Leaving this aside, two points should be noted a) Muslims have been critical but less visible due to the media's preference for Islamic looneys; b) as a Muslims why should I be any more critical of Islamic terrorism than IRA or ETA related terrorism?
Finally, I don't normally like to use my personal experiences but in keeping with the tradition of this discussion string, here goes....
A friend of mine told a story once about her reactions to constant news stories in the media about crime statistics and the prevalence of Caribbean offenders in these news stories. For years this friend felt personally responsible for the crime stories which disproportionately figured Caribbean males, and felt that being black herself, these crime stories or individuals 'were letting down the black community'. One day she realised that actually she wouldn't feel responsible or embarrassed about these news stories, after all, she doesn't bear the responsibility of answering for all Caribbean people just because she happens to be black. She realised that she may bear some responsibility for her country when she is perhaps overseas, as an ambassador for her country as she clearly was an outsider. But under no conditions would she feel the need to account for the ills of other black people or other white people in her own country as this somehow implied a higher burden of responsibility. This line of argument is not far off from the argument that people of non-white colour need to demonstrate or prove their loyalty, hence implying a weaker claim to citizenship. I apologise if I am blunt but the charge that 'why don't moderate Muslims speak out against...' ranks of Mr Norman Tebbit's cricket test. I use the example of crime stats not to re-confirm other popular prejudices that may still exist around the perception of crime and non-white populations but rather because I think it illustrates this point on the burden of responsibility quite well- as most of us can relate to black and white issues.
I've never felt the need to speak as the Muslim in the past, but i think it was Stuart Hall who once said/wrote that people often exercise and express their identities to a greater extent when their beliefs/values are under a threat. This must be a sign of the times.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Now Christmas is over I can start to respond to your reply (and give a fuller reply to your original article)...
As I said in my original post, I agree with many things you say. You complain about xenophobic media and politicians, so do I. I can't comment with much detailed knowledge about the Daily Mail (I read the Independent and watch/listen to the BBC), but I've seen enough headlines to be worried that irresponsible press reporting is whipping up irrational fears about immigration. (I've even written to complain about it - for all the good that did)
You say: "My choice is not to respond to prejudice with more prejudice", and I agree, not just in theory, but in the past in action. (I wasn't canvassing in a gloomy estate in London for the fun of it)
I believe all people, of whatever faith, colour, nation are equally valuable, precious individuals. I think that we in rich nations have a duty to look out for the interests of those in other nations.
I am strongly opposed to trade restrictions that prevent the developing world exporting their goods to the EU and the USA, while we force them to open their markets to us.
And I know that if I lived in a developing country, with poor prospects, I'd be very keen to live in the UK.
Though I am uneasy about a policy of immigration based solely on the skills of immigrants. If we encourage a brain-drain from the developing world to make up for our own skill shortages, we may be making development a great deal harder.
So in one way, I approve of immigration.
But I am also aware of the problems caused by immigration.
If it were just the UK, I'd ask myself what we in Britain were doing wrong, but it's a European-wide problem. Indeed it's worldwide: with Russians in Estonia, and Mexicans in California.
You say: "what I do know is that people are not racist or nationalistic by nature"
I agree entirely. So why are there these problems?
You say: "What is it that makes people feel so small and insecure in their culture or religion, that they lash out and hate to the point where they are prepared to kill"
A good question. Thankfully, in the UK we are not in the situation you found yourself in Bosnia. It might be interesting to explore your feelings about what happened in Bosnia .... but in another thread, or we'll wander too far off-topic.
You ask: "how come Switzerland is not up in arms?"
This is a very pertinent question. I'm afraid the brutal answer is because the Swiss have consistently had a very restrictive immigration policy. One I would be appalled to see the UK adopt.
You ask: "What is mass immigration?"
Simply put, I think mass immigration (ie immigration that we should worry about), is where the level of immigration is such that the indigenous society will be unable to integrate it, even in the long-term. And that this will probably lead to social division, and long-term ethnic tensions.
You ask: "If size matters, should the 96% of the British be afraid of 4% of immigrants?"
You said: "the size of immigration, economic and forced is negligible in terms of population, cost and economy; it is the perception of it, which has nothing to do with reality, that causes the concern"
I won't quibble on statistics - though I think you may be understating the issue, but even 4% can be a big issue if they are not spread across the country, but concentrated in a relatively few towns and communities. There are now a number of northern towns in the UK where the immigrant population is approaching a point of being the majority. If this is okay with the locals, fine. But I could understand why locals are afraid of becoming a minority in a town their great-grandparents were brought up in.
The other question is the growth of this immigrant population. I'm afraid I am unconvinced by your statistics so I'll try to get more detail myself.
You said: "b) this perception is generated and perpetuated by tabloids and politicians with no courage or vision;"
I disagree. While it plays a part, I've heard from too many with personal experience of the issue to think this is just a media hyped myth.
You said "c) immigrants (and specific faith groups) are not one organic social group. There is no evil conspiracy of body snatchers. No threat to overtake the host culture."
I agree. No concious conspiracy. But that doesn't mean that, in select communities in the UK, there is no threat to the host culture of that town.
You said: "d) the immigration debate is heavily coded in terms of race and identity and it is about time to have an honest and reasonable debate about these issues without the smokescreen of immigration or asylum."
I think this is a bit unfair. People are reluctant to talk in terms of race, because they get shouted at, or flamed, and reasonable debate ends.
In my opinion, the issue is more about identity and culture, than race. Although east asians do suffer discrimination, they have pretty harmonious relations.
Bother ... running out of time ... have to continue this later.
By the way, I've just read the account of a Labour fringe meeting with David Blunkett. It's worth a look.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-10-96-1554.jsp
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
To Zrinka Bralo,
You said: 'It would be helpful to have separate debates about economic immigration, political asylum and the integration of ethnic minorities.'
I'm a little hesitant to disagree. I dont want to imply that there are not many asylum seekers who enter this country in good faith, fleeing from genuine risk to their lives. But in my opinion much political asylum is closely related to economic immigration. You may disagree, but from a number of different sources, I have a strong impression that a large proportion of asylum seekers are in the UK for economic reasons, and that, if economic issues were not important, as soon as it ceased to be dangerous, many of those granted asylum in the UK would return to their original country.
Of course I deplore the popular press when they blame these people. If I were them, Id want to move to the UK, too, and Id be extremely angry at the way the tabloids demonized me. And in some ways, Im pleased many asylum seekers and economic migrants want to come to the UK: if they think we are tolerant of newcomers, and offer good economic opportunities, that is a compliment.
Do I have a clear agenda for what should be done? No. What I am clear on is that there is a real problem in certain communities in this country, and that this is largely because integration has not happened. Why, I am unsure. It may be because government allowed it to happen. It may be that the way we have preached a policy of multiculturalism has led to a policy of non-integration so that we literally do have multiple cultures ... in separate ghettos.
Maybe ghettoization was inevitable, and theres nothing that could have been done, or can be done, because in a free society, people will tend to congregate with those of a similar background. I dont know. But I hope in this thread we might find some common ground that non-integration is a problem, and maybe brainstorm a few ideas on how this can be addressed.
You said: The last census shows that there is no dramatic change in these figures (numbers of BME).
Can you substantiate that with a URL to the published figures (ie both for 2001 census and preceding census)? Id be delighted if your assertion proved correct, but Im afraid I doubt your assertion. Of maybe we just disagree on what counts as a dramatic change. I fear that, as with compound interest, what might seem a small increase in a single year can compound into a large increase if repeated over, say, twenty years.
It would be different if we could improve the rate of integration of immigrants, so that they joined mainstream UK culture, rather than a cultural ghetto. In that case, if year by year the number of incomers were balanced by those integrated, there wouldn't be such a problem. But my impression is that this is not happening in a number of communities.
You said: I want to be able to raise my family in a tolerant, progressive, and stable society, with access to health care, education, respect for freedoms and human rights. And I am prepared to work for it, campaign for it and pay for it.
glad to hear it. Sounds like youre exactly the kind of citizen most British would be delighted to welcome, and to have as a next-door neighbour.
You said: I am upset by riots in Oldham, by the suffering of young Asian women coerced into arranged marriages
Thanks for mentioning that second issue. One I dont think I got around to raising. It is another issue that makes indigenous Brits uneasy. It is also an issue that we are afraid to bring up for fear of being accused of being racists who think that all Asians practice forced marriage and honour killings.
You said: I am also upset that asylum seekers are attacked on the streets and their houses firebombed. I want to understand how and why these things happen.
Exactly. While we should condemn violence, it is essential to understand the fears that may be behind the violence. In my opinion, if a very large group of people react in a certain way, have certain fears and prejudices, it is not usually because they are irrational and prejudiced by nature, but because of some outside factor. It cannot just be the Daily Mail, otherwise Independent reading, Radio 4 listening people wouldnt share these worries. And I can assure you that these worries are widespread if spoken of privately for fear of being publicly castigated as a racist.
I wish more people in charities concerned with asylum put more effort into listening, rather than blaming the public and their elected politicians. Because if these concerns are sincerely held, then forcing people to shut up wont reassure, but drive the concerns underground to fester.
You said: How come some communities are
more conservative in their diasporas than in their countries of origin? ... Isolation and integration are two way processes.
I agree. I have a nasty suspicion, though with no evidence to back it up, that these ghettos may have been deliberately created by planners and politicians because they preferred to overwhelm a few working class areas with immigrants, rather than spread them out, and have a few immigrants near where *they* live.
You said: interesting how left liberals find it difficult to call a spade a spade, all these problems are
poverty
what is the alternative of course lets blame immigration.
Sorry, I dont agree. Not all these problems are poverty.
Re. David Blunkett. Im not going to defend him. I dont know the man, dont know enough about the back-story behind the recent headlines, or the context of the article your quote.
Re. Michael Howard dont raise your hopes. It is in his political advantage to, temporarily, appear more liberal
I doubt that will last. Maybe it's my political prejudice, but I fear that if David Blunkett shifts to a more liberal policy, Howard will revert to rightwing scare mongering.
You said instead of this debate, wouldnt it be more productive to talk about why there is a rundown council estate
not only for the sake of one elderly lady
, but for the sake of all its residents ... Could it be that this poverty and misery has something to do with other social processes rather than immigration?
It would certainly be less painful, it is easier to avoid the race issue, and just talk about poverty. But I think it would be an act of denial. This is what those campaigning for the welfare of immigrants have, in effect, asked the left to do. And when it comes to public debate the left have obliged. Surely, all this has done is create a private debate where politicians with sincere worries can talk without being shouted down. And so, without intending to, those who have vital input into the immigration debate have created a private debate which they are shut out of.
You asked: How come immigration is not destroying leafy suburbs but selectively only attacks council estates?
I believe I know the answer to that. Middle class immigrants learn English, make great efforts to integrate, and are, in my opinion, pretty good at it. And, in the main, middle class immigrants dont form/arent dumped in ghettos, but are thinly spread across the community.
Maybe a good point to pause, because if I am right, my last paragraph may offer a start to a solution
if only we could think of some way to make it work. But that solution presupposes that we agree that integration is a good thing
and before we move on, lets be clear we are all agreed on that.
Best regards
George
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Thanks, George.
You raised some interesting points in your detailed reply. I am afraid I don't have time for detailed response. Also, we agree on so many things that the debate is in danger of becoming truly boring. I will come back to some of your points soon, so between us we can solve world problems. In the meantime, I just wanted to give you few links I use as a source. The 7% and 4% quote comes from IPPR's Asylum Fact file http://www.ippr.org.uk/topical/index.php?current=33
and the latest on census can be found at National Statistics web site http://www.statistics.gov.uk/glance/default.asp
Info on International Migration can be found at
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=260
Info on Asylum
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=261
Info on Ethnicity
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=273
You will see that BME population is now 7.9%, however immigration is not yet presented in a straightforward way, so we might have to wait for someone to put it in more lay terms. Perhaps IPPR could follow the same methodology that was used in their Fact File so that at least few people would be on the same page as far as numbers game is concerned.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
People are afraid, they are developing a siege mentality. They are being surrounded by people who talk different, dress different,smell different, think different and are
therefore completely different to themselves and it's making them afraid. The "popular Press" print stories daily,that demonize and de-humanize the newcomers,that emphasize the difference and the fear grows deeper and deeper, and the Public figures do nothing for fear of being labelled racist. What we need is for somebody in authority to acknowledge that there is a problem. We need someone to remind us that these people are people and that all they want is the same as us. To live a life in peace and prosperity, to be able to protect and love their families. These people need our help and understanding, once we show them the best that we are capable of they will lose there fear of us and start to embrace our way of life, because once we show them that our way is better that what they knew they will want it too. But we have got to show them the way,it won't be easy and it won't happen over night. The sooner we start the better for everyone, but the situation is only going to get worse if we don't start by first admitting there is a problem
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Basildon, Thanks for your post. The issue of Islamic extremism is important, and separate from that of ethnic integration. So I am creating a separate thread:
(URL) http://www.opendemocracy.com/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=76&threadID=42160
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
"What we need is for somebody in authority to acknowledge that there is a problem..."
What do you view as the 'problem'? My guess it's the siege mentality of the host population, right?
My second guess would be that you would probably go along with Mr. Blunkett's recent proposition that there is 'no upper limit' to the immigration that Britain can sustain. Right again?
However, if on the slim chance that you,like many other people think that Mr. Blunkett has a roo loose in the top paddock, what do you think would be a good number? 100,000 a year, 1 million, 5 million, as many as want to come?
Have you thought this through?
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
The siege mentality goes both ways. The immigrants living in the 'gettos' because they are too afraid to come out, and the indigenous population who want to keep them in there because they are too afraid to let them out. We need someone in authority to stand-up and point out that both sides are at fault. We need to let the immigrants know they came to this county looking for a better way of life and they are not going to find it whilst they stay together in a pseudo 'old country' community. The indigenous population need to be reminded they are all descended for immigrants.. Britain comes for Britannia which what the Romans call the place, when
they invaded them. Anglo Saxon is from the Angles and the Saxons, who also invaded this county. Then there's the Danes, the French, the Irish and on and on. The language that we speak evolved from many other languages that were brought here by previous generations of immigrants. After every influx there has been upheaval and unrest, and usually blood, guts and riots, but the society survived and thrived, the new was integrated,the best of the incoming culture was absorbed and the crap was tossed over board. It did however take time and it wasn't done willing, but it happened.
We need immigrants, every society that's wants to thrive and too survive needs a regular influx of new blood. A society that doesn't adapt to the world it's a part of is a doomed society, just like a species.
Europe is just about to go down the other side of the hill, soon there will be more old people than young people. The only way we are going to maintain a working population is through immigrants. If the old expect a pension at the end of a long,hard working life (like I do) then we are going to need a young, hardworking population paying Taxes so we can get our due.
We don't need to put an 'upper limit' on immigration, because it will come about naturally. This country isn't the land of milk and honey that we might like to imagine it is. Not everybody wants to come here, and some of those that are here will want to leave and go back home. They're here to get a job, work their socks off, pile up the dosh and then go home to a well earned retirement. Just like thousands and thousands of born and bred Brits are doing in other countries, like Saudi,Thailand etc.
How many years has it been since the oft quoted 'rivers of blood' speech, and yet we're all still here. Which only goes to prove, it will be possible to 'do it' if we put our minds too it. The longer we all bury our heads in the sand, the harder it's going to be to 'do it' when we are finally forced to pay attention. The sooner we admit there's a problem, the sooner we can sort out the problem, the happier the People of the country will be
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously (reply to s.ingram
s.ingram297 said "We don't need to put an 'upper limit' on immigration"
Broadly speaking I agree with you, but I think we do need to be careful.
There are tens, probably hundreds of millions, in impoverished countries, who would love to live in the UK. I know I would if I were one of them. The only reasons they aren't knocking on the door is: a) they can't afford the air fare, and b) our immigration controls.
From a moral point of view, I find this troubling. They are as much human beings as I, but the UK couldn't survive as the country it is, if too many came here.
In my opinion, there is an upper limit. What is is, I don't know. But what that limit is is heavily determined by how fast we can integrate those who have already come. If exclusive ghettos are growing, that's a sign that either the immigration rate is too high, or our policies of integration need a serious overhaul, or that the community leaders of those ghettosised communities need to work harder at leading their people out of those ghettos.
Perseus challenged us to say what the upper limit should be.
I would like to ask you, Perseus. Do you share my moral unease, that we in the UK (and in Europe and the US) shut out processed goods and farm products from the developing world, shut out their people from coming here, and they suffer unemployment and poverty.
If you want to keep shutting out their people, do you think we should do something more to ease their plight in the countries they stay in?
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously (reply to s.ingram
George, in answer to your question "what should we doing to ease the plight of poor people?" I lean towards a neo-Malthusian viewpoint.
It seems to me that the greatest good for the greatest number will be achieved through the provision of generous devlopment aid rigidly linked to stringent population control aimed at returning to population levels that are sustainable in the long term.
When we read, for example, that the combined population of Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt is set to double to 384 million by 2050, and this in a region already critically short of water, the alarm bells ring loud and clear. For us in the West to turn a blind eye to this kind of looming human and environmental catastrophe is irresponsible to say the least.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously
As a Muslim I was ammused to read how non-Muslims make categories and sub-groups of types of Muslims that do not even exist. Liberal, Extremist and Fundamentalist are fictional titles that have no bearing on the Muslim World. People who follow the Law of Islam in every aspect are known as Muslims those who do not follow Islamic Law in its entirity but still believe in God are known as Hypocrites (and not Modern, or Liberals as the Western media would have you believe.) I will not apologise to the xenophobes here, but, the Men with long beards and the Women in Burqa's are the 'Real Muslims' the Lord Ahmeds, Yasmin Alibai Browns, President Musharrafs and the Saudi family et al are the Hypocrites.
As for the Salman Rushdie Fatwa: he is still alive, the fatwa does not prove that Muslims are anymore Barbaric than non-Muslims. The proof however would suggest otherwise, even in the 80 years the world has been without a truely Islamic country, Muslims have not been responsible for the worst attrocities against Humanity but it has been those of European and non-Muslim origin. Yet you are lead to believe we are the worst of creation. As Muslims we have every right to feel hard done by. The 6 million butchered in the 'Holocaust' this event was carried out by White, Christian Europeans. Lenin and Stalin executed or starved 30 million or more including Ukrainians,(8 million of those were killed because they were Muslim, that's 2 million more than the Jewish Holocaust.)
The 340,000 deaths of the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (by 1950) at the hands of America and Allies claiming to be the bastion of Democracy, civility and progress. The 30 million plus victims of Mao's regime are well known but the fact that 14 million of that figure were Muslims is little known perhaps because the image of the Muslim as oppressor is more favourable in the West than that of the Victim. Churchill killed hundred thousands of Kurds by using Gas, the British then left them stateless. We also know of the unrepentant cruelty with which America Napalmed entire regions of Vietnam in frustration at their complete military incompetance. I am surprised America is called a Superpower at all as it has never won a war without aid. America has recently doubled it's aid to the Uzbek dictator Islam Karimov who has been responsible for the deaths of several thousands of Muslims (reminiscent of Saddam Hussain?). How many voters in America know who their government supports secretly and then attacks overtly? I do not need to mention Palestine. Perhaps I should mention the 80,000 Muslims killed in Kashmir so far, or France's murder of countless Algerians just because they democratically voted in an Islamic government. The West agreed to turn a blind eye to the Chechen Holocaust in return for support/non-criticism regarding the New Crusades (55,000 plus Chechen Muslims have been mudered since 2001). The coalition has succeeded in liberating an underestimated 15,000 Iraqis to their graves. The number would have been considerably lower had the Iraqis been White Christians. All the above are relatively recent events, if we were to look at the history of Christianity the death toll figures caused by the "Civilised" West would mount up beyond count. The list goes on. Immigration in the U.K is being taken too seriously especially if those who have a problem with immigrants take a look at their own country's history and responsibilities to those countries whose citizens now take refuge in the bosom of their former rulers who left them having stolen and raped from them. Britain cannot make claims to hardship in this matter due to the overwhelming responsibility Britain has to it's former colonies which it made no effort of aiding before it left them in poverty and under despotic rulers. The U.K. must deal with its bastard children for they are of its own making. If you look at yourselves first you will see extremism everywhere. Muslims are considered extreme because we follow our religion to the extreme. The secular Capitalist however is the most extreme and heartless beast ever in existence. Mountains of grain are burnt every day in the West because they cannot be sold and to give it away would be profitless. So when millions die in Africa from famine the ignorant man will ask "Why does God allow this suffering?" well i'll tell you: because we allow mountains of grain to be burnt everyday by the extremist Capitalists. It is not God or religion but infidel Man who makes this World seem abhorrent. If the West insists on it's usurper policy then the most affected by it will knock on their doors and ask for asylum.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously
Asif,
Thankyou for your reply. In case you haven't read my post in the thread "Why moderate Muslims should speak out (Reply to Basildon)"
http://www.opendemocracy.com/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=76&threadID=42160&messageID=46216&start=0뒈
I'm going to put the rest of my reply in that thread.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Still no thoughts on a numerical 'upper limit' then eh George?
I wonder whether public sentiment in this matter may be influenced by the Govt Actuary's report earlier this week. We are told that the population of the UK will increase by a further 10% in the 25 years, with almost two thirds of that increase being due to immigrants. We were not told how many of the other one third are children of earlier post-war immigrants, but given the known disparities in fertility rates we can fairly assume it is the majority.
Should these figures prove correct, this will mean that over the period 1950 to 2031 the UK population will have increased by 18 million.
Assuming the projected immigration figures are correct and remain unchanged, and that the fertitlity rates of ethnic 'minorities' tend towards that of the 'native' population, we can confidently expect the population to be 114 million by the turn of the century. 55 million will be immigrants or the descendants of post WWII.
Non immigrants will still be in the majority, but only just so.
Does this look like an appealing scenario? What do you think the electorate might make of it in the unlikely event it were to be made widely known?
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
Hello Perseus,
Perseus said "Still no thoughts on a numerical 'upper limit' then eh George?"
My views remain as they were. That what is important is integration. If there were 114 million by the end of the century, and they were integrated, I don't think that would be a problem (I even think we could cope with a population that size). But I am very concerned that many of them might not be ... that we could end up with 20% unintegrated, and providing a serious long-term problem. Hence my earlier posts.
That said, I don't believe the figures you quote. Extrapolating trends usually leads to exaggeration. Nonetheless, the trends you indicate significant long-term problems, and they deserve to be answered honestly.
Best regards
George
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
i agree that immigration needs to be taken seriously, it affects our lifes in more ways then 1.
our little country cannot sustain the levels of people it has now, just look at the nhs/education system/housing situation. here is my open letter to tony blair
www.btinternet.com/~danielle.mccarthy/deartonyblair/htm
i am fed up with the "it brings culture and much needed skills to our country!"
how about investing in the education system so our people (regardless of colour, i am not racist) can take the jobs on offer, instead of spending money building more homes on our greenbelt land to house yet more immigrants.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
sorry, .htm not/htm
www.btinternet.com/~danielle.mccarthy/deartonyblair.htm
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
In fact, the NHS would be far worse off without immigrants. 31 per cent of doctors and 13 per cent of nurses are non-UK born; in London 23 per cent and 47 per cent respectively. Half the expansion of the NHS over the last decade - that is, 8,000 of the additional 16,000 staff - had qualified abroad. A Royal College of Nursing survey recently reported 78 per cent of hospitals with medium to high recruitment difficulties.
Per capita immigrants make a higher than average contribution to the NHS. Therefore if they stop coming the NHS will crumble, because there would be less NHS staff around per head of population.
I suggest you look into the make-up of the NHS before you decide that immigration is a burden on it.
Immigration from australia, america and new zealand and many european countries is not obvious to the naked eye. When you look around and have a problem with seeing people that are not english what you mean is people who are not white. If your problem is not a racist one, what is it?
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
The shortage of affordable housing in the UK is a combination of many factors:
# young people increasingly want homes of their own, older people are living longer and there are more divorces and people living on their own.
"In part, the growth in household numbers is being driven by shifting lifestyle patterns, attitudes and aspirations resulting in a more complex array of household structures than was the case 30 years ago. Government projections, for example, suggest a 76% increase in lone parent households between 1991 and 2021 and a 60% increase in one person households. The housing system is geared to cater for the traditional family unit and, by its very nature as bricks and mortar, is slow to respond to the changes in demand."
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:VDJYYP1HY-4J:www.renewal.net/Documents/Overview/Housing%2520and%2520Environment/Affordablehousing.DOC+causes+of+shortage+of+affordable+housing+in+uk&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
# many people own second homes (for which they receive tax allowances)
# there are more empty units in the UK than homeless people, there is just not the will or inclination to match need with availibility
# north-south migration (strength of economy in south-east in particular)
# Decrease in house building
"About 150,000 fewer homes are being built in England today than were built 30 years ago and new house building completions across all sectors are at their lowest since 1924. In 2001, 162,000 dwellings were built, representing the lowest number in 77 years."
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:VDJYYP1HY-4J:www.renewal.net/Documents/Overview/Housing%2520and%2520Environment/Affordablehousing.DOC+causes+of+shortage+of+affordable+housing+in+uk&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
# the move away from council housing instigated by Thatcher
"The last 20 years have witnessed a sharp reduction in the provision of social rented accommodation. The local authority new build programme has been brought to a shuddering halt, with dwelling completions falling from 85,049 in 1979 to 528 in 1994. Meanwhile, 1.367 million council properties were privatised in England through the 'right to buy' programme between April 1979 and March 1999."
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:VDJYYP1HY-4J:www.renewal.net/Documents/Overview/Housing%2520and%2520Environment/Affordablehousing.DOC+causes+of+shortage+of+affordable+housing+in+uk&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
"The Government has predicted that there will be an increase of about 3.12 million in the number of households between 1996 and 2016. This is a result of diverse social, economic and demographic factors including changing lifestyles and relationships, better medical care, uneven regional economic growth and international migration.[2]"
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmodpm/75/7503.htm#note2
Migration forms only a part of, a part of the explanation for the housing shortfall. Migrants take up many of the Key Worker vacancies empty in the South East. Blaming the housing crisis on immigration is as about as useful as blaming traffic congestion on bicycles.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
mazz:
u obviously havent worked as a nurse.
the reason so many of our positions are now filled by people from abroad is that the pay and conditions are appalling, along with the hours, ergo us english people simply cannot continue, and many of us choose to go private. UNDERFUNDED
and although the figures you quote may or may not be correct nationally, where i am it is a burden, in both my hospital and my doctors. (by the way, my doctor is lovely, and from iran) and i object to the accusation that i am racist, members of my own family are NOT WHITE and NOT BORN HERE. and my white members were also migrants. and they have all worked and earned their right to be here.
when i said "non english" i also said "of any colour" even my coloured neighbours and my asian best friend agree that where we live, the situation is appalling.
i have spoken to people from differing parts of america/new zealand (where my family emigrated to escape) greece and amsterdam, and have heard horrendous accounts of what mass immigration in a small area can do.
so i suggest you stop looking at other peoples figures and experience first hand what REALLY is going on around you before firing accusations
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
as for the housing situation, there is more households then houses, and mass immigration is adding to the problem.
there are many homeless people here, who have waited years for a place to live, and many who live in severe overcrowded conditions. I myself waited 4 years for a house, whilst living a a very bad hostel. My wages then as a scientific officer simply did not cover a mortgage of any kind, even then.
yet on this estate, at the moment 8 out of 10 empty houses are going to asylum seekers/economic migrants.
whilst i do not doubt that the conditions they left behind is appalling, this area simply doesn't have the means to support them, especially at the expense of the ever growing waiting lists. they themselves tell me they waited only weeks in some cases, whereas already resident people are waiting over 4 years in some cases to move, and in my mothers case 8 years to get out of a small flat when we were young.
why should we lose what precious little greenspace we have around here to house more people we cannot house?
all the privately owned houses in my road are rented out to house them too, at extotionate rates to the council. yet more wasted money. i dont know where you live, but it isn't anywhere near here.
the government can predict nothing it doesn't want to hear.
its about time it listened to its people.
Re: Why we need to take immigration seriously. (reply to Zrinka
i applaud george for this post. he hit the nail on the head with this comment:
I realised that I, living in a comfortable leafy suburb, didn't have to live with the consequences of the failings of our immigration policy. She did.
i too AM a forienger in my country of birth (my familys adopted country) but i am aware the situation doesnt exist in other areas of the country, therefore other people do too often dismiss my comments as racist. but it is this condemnation that is preventing many people from speaking out.
people here are scared to speak out about anything, for example myself, & my IRISH neighbours & my ASIAN neighbours (who all integrated themselves and take pride in their country) recently complained about the antisocial behaviour of another family (and their hangers on) who were of white european descent but not english. for 3 years we have had to endure appalling behaviour and intimidation and antisocial behaviour that made our lives intolerable.
they hit back counter claims of racism, and guess what? WE were the 1's who ended up being investigated. What they failed to realise is that we hated them not because of where they were from, but because they had made our lives a misery for years. the council just jumped the minute the word RACISM was mentioned.
now that is sad. how could they not see that us, an irishman, an asian and me, myself from migrant background, were just trying to ensure that our daily lives for us and our young children were not blighted by these so called welcome immigrants?
to add insult to injury, they then broke into the flat opposite me and squatted for weeks, and still no action was taken.
this country is a soft touch and even my immigrant friends agree that now it is all to easy for them. i dont blame them, i would go to a country that gave me all this. (yet ironically i, as an english born citizen, do not get)
Post new comment |
![]() |
|
Posts: 183
Joined: 2003-03-01